Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ShadowGuy1]

UPSET AT APEX:

Kels2-1 M2K

 

[Deleted member 269706]

To anyone wondering about Miiself (the Ness who beat ESAM), he's a CO player. Not PR ranked, though he's been climbing the ranks. Definitely a good player. I had a set against him few months back. His Ness ran train on me. (I beat him in Fox dittos tho ) To my knowledge, Ness is really the only character that he uses in tourney. Would love to see more upsets from him this weekend.

 

[hypersonicJD]

THE SONIC HYPE IS REAL FOR ME RIGHT NOW. GOOO KELLS!

(Told ya Sonic vs Cloud it's even lol)

 

[TheGlove]

Kels over m2k is especially surprising considering M2k is up in sets over 6wx and Static Manny in Cloud vs sonic.

Kels was punishing M2k's landings pretty well, he went for down air too many times at the begging. I feel like M2k spent too much time running away to charge limit instead of spacing Kels out with his massive low lag ariels. Definitely a match to rewatch later for analysis, but I feel like M2k just under performed and Kels played really well.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Kels is an OG Brawl Sonic. I remember playing her on wifi ages ago (she was beating me with Sonic/Kirby while I used top tiers iirc) and noticing how well she was doing with such a limited character. I always thought just imagine if Sonic was top tier and now he is lol. I think the same goes for 6WX and Wrath (former Brawl sonics).

As much as I dislike Sonic, It's nice to see people's hard work paying off after so many years. They stuck by their character even when they were bad and now are being rewarded for it.

I think Sonic has beaten several top players now in NA actually. Zero, Ally and M2K. And he just won a tournament in Japan (though the guy also used Cloud but still).

There's a strong case for Sonic being potentially top 3 in this game. I think he's definitely better than Rosa or Sheik at least.

 

[FeelMeUp]

THE SONIC HYPE IS REAL FOR ME RIGHT NOW. GOOO KELLS!

(Told ya Sonic vs Cloud it's even lol)

Sigh.

Slight pet peeve of mine. Probably the only real annoyance I've had with my short time on this thread.
Can we please stop trying to make MU ratios based on who beats who and what characters they were using? That's a lazy kneejerk reaction that no person attempting to lead the meta would have.
It's maddening to see things like:
"Nairo lost to a Mac, the MU must be losing"
"Nairo lost to a Robin, maybe the MU is even and not -2/3 like we thought"
"Larry's DK beat VoiD, Sheik loses to DK"
"ZeRo's lost to two Marios, Mario now beats Sheik and Diddy"
"Pikachu doesn't beat Fox because ESAM always loses to Larry"
etc
What I and MANY many others would like to see is:
"Man, Larry's DK is getting grabs for free and VoiD is never exploiting DK's horrible options off ledge with Sheik's amazing ledge trap game. This MU is being played terribly."
"Larry constantly rushed Trela's Ryu and didn't play the MU optimally. I don't think this is indicative of how things should play out at top level"
At LEAST watch the videos and provide specific examples of interactions and support WHY one would think that way. You might actually come to a logical conclusion this time.

 

[san.]

I hope Cloud players start using dair less in non-limit, there is too much counterplay to it.

-Hit someone's shield while rising with dair, you get punished since your hitbox is gone
-Dair has like 26 frames of landing lag, so you must autocancel. If the opponent knows your autocancel timing, they know when you will slow fall and when you will fastfall
-Dair's hitbox shrinks during the sourspot, allowing many characters to still hit around it.
-If you whiff, you can still get punished with things like jabs, even if you autocancel.
-Easy to powershield punish if you're predictable.
-Often times, you need to waste your double jump to get within the autocancel timing, making you more vulnerable.

This is before mentioning hitting him on the side. Even diagonally attacking works for some disjointed characters. I think dair is great when used reactively to potential aggression, but not used to whip out prematurely non-limit.

I think Cloud only has the mobility to really utilize dair when he's in limit and can drift out more safely, otherwise too much usage of dair will get blown up.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Sigh.

Ok. Sorry then But anyway. Sonic seems to be having some really good results lately. Kels is doing amazing work with the character in general, and Seagull, 6WX and other sonic mains are still doing well. Not so hot, but still good results regardless.

Everybody is rising in general. And i'm loving it so far. Smash 4 meta seems to be so healthy right now. Underused characters are getting results, mid tiers are actually rising and seen as high tiers, and high tiers have some case for top tier now. It's just amazing

 

[meticulousboy]

Real talk though, Peach's superior air game, combos, kill power and ability to eliminate ground options with Float Dair makes it really hard to for Sonic to get on her with his most potent punish tool. Our saving grace is the fact that Peach is really slow so running with the lead is an amazing option. (It's kinda like the Mario MU, get the lead and then GTFO racking up small amounts of damage at a time)

While Peach may have the second to slowest fall speed in the game, she does have the highest air acceleration. With that said, she loves fast fallers for she can quickly reach her top air speed and just ground float Up Air for juggling purposes.

 

[TDK]

UPSET AT APEX:

Kels2-1 M2K

SuperGirlKels or a different Kels?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Ok. Sorry then But anyway. Sonic seems to be having some really good results lately. Kels is doing amazing work with the character in general, and Seagull, 6WX and other sonic mains are still doing well. Not so hot, but still good results regardless.

Everybody is rising in general. And i'm loving it so far. Smash 4 meta seems to be so healthy right now. Underused characters are getting results, mid tiers are actually rising and seen as high tiers, and high tiers have some case for top tier now. It's just amazing

Wasn't we just reading about why Raziek switched over to cloud from robin because he felt like robin struggled too much in those MUs?

 

[hypersonicJD]

Wasn't we just reading about why Raziek switched over to cloud from robin because he felt like robin struggled too much in those MUs?

Well yeah. But there are still really determinated people that want to keep using their mains. And it's paying off now. Robin does have trouble with more characters though. He doesn't do that good wih Cloud, Mario or Sheik. (think those are his losing MU)

 

[ShadowGuy1]

SuperGirlKels or a different Kels?

SuperGirlKels aka every sonic mains technical inspiration(Mine at least)

EDIT:Change that, sorry about that Fire Emblem is still stuck with me. However, Kels is putting her name on the map, which is great and she is very underated.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Rain vs Mister Eric is a flawless example of one of ROB's largest problems as a character. Cloud, with little understanding of matchup-specific counterplay, can still beat ROB just with upair alone (not trying to insult Rain though). There was a point when Mr Eric had an 80% lead and it was revoked by one long juggle.

 

[PK Gaming]

SuperGirlKels aka every sonic mains waifu

I don't want to be rude but please don't say this kind of ****

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Spoiler: Sumabato 11 Results

1) Komorikiri
2) Kie
3) ikep
4) You3
5) Earth
5) Oisiitofu
7) Aki (?)
7) FILIP
9) Fuwa
9) Gomamugitya
9) Z~Tan
9) Tatsutsuyo
13) A
13) Souther
13) HIKARU
13) Sylph

180 entrants. Bracket here.

Kie is back? IIRC this is the Brawl Peach that used to win tournaments beating players like Otori (easily top 3 MK in the world for Brawl). And this was towards the end of Brawl's lifespan too, it wasn't a classic case of a mid tier doing well early in a game's meta.

 

[Djent]

J JustSomeScrub Komo opted for Sonic against Kie (and for most of the tournament save for game 2 vs. Earth). He probably would have won either way, but Cloud is definitely a more winnable matchup for her.

Unrelated, and I'm sorry to say this, but Tristate needs to stop seeding C3PO so high. He keeps losing in pools at large events and doesn't have enough huge wins to offset his losses. In fact, the less seeding Tristate does the better.

 

[Peppermint1201]

J JustSomeScrub Komo opted for Sonic against Kie (and for most of the tournament save for game 2 vs. Earth). He probably would have won either way, but Cloud is definitely a more winnable matchup for her.

Unrelated, and I'm sorry to say this, but Tristate needs to stop seeding C3PO so high. He keeps losing in pools at large events and doesn't have enough huge wins to offset his losses. In fact, the less seeding Tristate does the better.

It's what happens to Diddies who only bother to get high-tier matchup experience. MVD had (maybe still has) the same problem.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

J JustSomeScrub Komo opted for Sonic against Kie (and for most of the tournament save for game 2 vs. Earth). He probably would have won either way, but Cloud is definitely a more winnable matchup for her.

Unrelated, and I'm sorry to say this, but Tristate needs to stop seeding C3PO so high. He keeps losing in pools at large events and doesn't have enough huge wins to offset his losses. In fact, the less seeding Tristate does the better.

Ah I see. My mistake.

 

[adom4]

UPSET AT APEX:

Kels2-1 M2K

Is it really that big of an upset?
Kels is mad good.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Is it really that big of an upset?
Kels is mad good.

erm, can't tell if you are joking.

Sonic has a bad matchup vs Cloud, and Kels is not even the best Sonic, prob not even top 3, while M2K is at the very least a Top 20 player and imo best cloud. M2K beat Zero as well, so theres that.

 

[adom4]

erm, can't tell if you are joking.

Sonic has a bad matchup vs Cloud, and Kels is not even the best Sonic, prob not even top 3, while M2K is at the very least a Top 20 player and imo best cloud. M2K beat Zero as well, so theres that.

He does?
Didn't know that, so yeah i guess you have a point lol.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Didn't mean to make this

 

[Illuminose]

J JustSomeScrub Komo opted for Sonic against Kie (and for most of the tournament save for game 2 vs. Earth). He probably would have won either way, but Cloud is definitely a more winnable matchup for her.

Unrelated, and I'm sorry to say this, but Tristate needs to stop seeding C3PO so high. He keeps losing in pools at large events and doesn't have enough huge wins to offset his losses. In fact, the less seeding Tristate does the better.

umeki just 3-0'd 6wx

 

[JustSomeScrub]

erm, can't tell if you are joking.

Sonic has a bad matchup vs Cloud, and Kels is not even the best Sonic, prob not even top 3, while M2K is at the very least a Top 20 player and imo best cloud. M2K beat Zero as well, so theres that.

Idk about Sonic being bad vs Cloud. He's one of the few characters that can punish autocancel dair really well (whiff punishing). And he threatens so much space making it hard for Cloud to easily sit back and charge limit. His edge guarding is really good versus Cloud as well.

I mean just because Ally's Cloud beat the Wrath (who plays an extremely campy Sonic) doesn't mean it's a bad matchup.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Idk about Sonic being bad vs Cloud. He's one of the few characters that can punish autocancel dair really well (whiff punishing). And he threatens so much space making it hard for Cloud to easily sit back and charge limit. His edge guarding is really good versus Cloud as well.

I mean just because Ally's Cloud beat the Wrath (who plays an extremely campy Sonic) doesn't mean it's a bad matchup.

Er.....


The only Sonic I have recently seen beat a Cloud was SGK just today.

Wrath lost to Ally's Pocket Cloud that I have never seen
6WX lost to Tweek at Ktar 3-1
Kid Goggles lost to Leo's Cloud


There are way more, just not able to think about it off the top of my head. However it is not like 60-40, it is more like 55-45 IMHO. It is however, one of sonics few losing matchups.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mr r beats Komorikiri
Zorai beats Tweek [!]
Void beats Rain

You're insane if you think Sheik vs Cloud is even or close to it. It's a solid 6/4 in Sheik's favor for sure. I hope this lays the whole "Cloud is the best character and has no losing matchup"-nonsense to rest for good.

 

[Djent]

umeki just 3-0'd 6wx

LOL OK, maybe I spoke too soon. I didn't catch the match though. Did you (or anyone else) catch anything that he did in particular that helps against Sonic?

Mr r beats Komorikiri
Zorai beats Tweek [!]
Void beats Rain

You're insane if you think Sheik vs Cloud is even or close to it. It's a solid 6/4 in Sheik's favor for sure. I hope this lays the whole "Cloud is the best character and has no losing matchup"-nonsense to rest for good.

Yeah, it's starting to look pretty bad for Cloud at top level. Watching Z~Tan vs. Sylph compared to watching VoiD or Mr-R vs. top Clouds is very different. I wonder if the way the matchup plays out at mid- and high-levels (closer to even IMO) skews perceptions a bit? Alternatively, it might also be just as bad there, and the opinion persists because of early results from before people really started to learn Cloud.

 

[FeelMeUp]

double bouncing fish on recovering cloud makes that mu look silly.
he also can't freely camp for limit because he'd rather shield needles over taking the hits, and if she gets close he has to deal with the safe on shield fair pressure or getting grabbed and taking 20% or dying at low-mid %
i could honestly definitely see the MU being 6:4 in the longrun.

 

[soniczx123]

Idk about Sonic being bad vs Cloud. He's one of the few characters that can punish autocancel dair really well (whiff punishing). And he threatens so much space making it hard for Cloud to easily sit back and charge limit. His edge guarding is really good versus Cloud as well.

I mean just because Ally's Cloud beat the Wrath (who plays an extremely campy Sonic) doesn't mean it's a bad matchup.

It's horrible on paper and in practice. Could be the main factor holding Sonic back from being solo-viable.

 

[BunbUn129]

Also another important point is that Sheik can punish Cloud's dair-landings with needles, something other characters have a tough time with.

 

[juddy96]

Salty Arena Cup U #1 (62 entrants) - Lille, France

A crew of Dutch came out to invade but could the likes of S1 and Meru break through the French fortress? Survey says... no.

1) Elexiao
2) Glutonny
3) Homika
4) Vanaheim
5) S1
5) P. Boosters
7) Griffith
7) Meru

 

[FullMoon]

Elexiao sure has been going strong.

Nice to see some more results coming from Greninja.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

It's horrible on paper and in practice. Could be the main factor holding Sonic back from being solo-viable.

Is that why M2K just lost to Sonic?

Sonic not being solo viable? Despite having multiple reps in multiple top 8s both in NA and Japan?

If Sonic isn't viable than almost no character in this game is considering his results are much better than most of the cast combined.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It's horrible on paper and in practice. Could be the main factor holding Sonic back from being solo-viable.

Rosalina says hi.
But I get the point, as Cloud is like 20 times more popular than Rosa is.

 

[Blobface]

So a lot of the time when edgeguarding Cloud is brought up a common argument brought up is Cloud's aerial mobility. While Cloud is very mobile in the air, Captain Falcon has extremely similar aerial mobility stats, yet his recovery is considered bad at best. What is it about Non-Limit Cloud that gives him a better recovery than Captain Falcon?

 

[FeelMeUp]

M2K Cloud dittoing a japanese player gives scary Brawl flashbacks.

 

[my_T]

So a lot of the time when edgeguarding Cloud is brought up a common argument brought up is Cloud's aerial mobility. While Cloud is very mobile in the air, Captain Falcon has extremely similar aerial mobility stats, yet his recovery is considered bad at best. What is it about Non-Limit Cloud that gives him a better recovery than Captain Falcon?

DISJOINTS

 

[adom4]

So a lot of the time when edgeguarding Cloud is brought up a common argument brought up is Cloud's aerial mobility. While Cloud is very mobile in the air, Captain Falcon has extremely similar aerial mobility stats, yet his recovery is considered bad at best. What is it about Non-Limit Cloud that gives him a better recovery than Captain Falcon?

The sword hitbox is huge on climhazzard, Falcon is much easier to 2 frame & Cloud's offstage coverage is noticably better.

 

[bc1910]

So a lot of the time when edgeguarding Cloud is brought up a common argument brought up is Cloud's aerial mobility. While Cloud is very mobile in the air, Captain Falcon has extremely similar aerial mobility stats, yet his recovery is considered bad at best. What is it about Non-Limit Cloud that gives him a better recovery than Captain Falcon?

In addition to the good hitboxes on Cloud's aerials and Up B, Cloud is floatier which gives him more aerial control and a greater ability to weave. Greninja for example has higher air speed and the same accel/decel as Mario, but you'd never know it because he drops like a rock.

Yeah, it's starting to look pretty bad for Cloud at top level. Watching Z~Tan vs. Sylph compared to watching VoiD or Mr-R vs. top Clouds is very different. I wonder if the way the matchup plays out at mid- and high-levels (closer to even IMO) skews perceptions a bit? Alternatively, it might also be just as bad there, and the opinion persists because of early results from before people really started to learn Cloud.

Honestly just depends how good the Sheik is, I think. But with mid-level Cloud being so easy and mid-level Sheik taking a huge hit from the loss of the 50/50, I could see it in Cloud's favour.