Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[R3D3MON]

My brother has a mean Falco too

It's like, he's bad on paper but a good Falco can mess you up

Starting to feel that way about a lot of characters to be honest.

Player skill is a thing.

 

[PK Gaming]

Player skill is a thing.

I know, but I've just never agreed with Falco being as bad as people say he is

 

[HeavyLobster]

My brother has a mean Falco too

It's like, he's bad on paper but a good Falco can mess you up

Starting to feel that way about a lot of characters to be honest.

Almost every bad character in this game is like that. You really don't want to eat a punish from Roy, or Ganondorf, or Zelda, or Dedede, or Charizard, or Bowser Jr., or ...

 

[R3D3MON]

PK Gaming

Everybody knows he has a usable cqc with some useful moves. You might want to read Ffarman's posts sometimes. He highlights what exactly is wrong with the character.

 

[Djent]

i dont really know how to respond to this but i also dont want to let it slide. i mostly just question the point of posting if the average user really believes that high level players are more biased than insightful

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I don't think it's just a high-level thing. I think it's an everyone thing, and the best we can do is share information. Everyone's contributions will unavoidably be biased to some degree. I think it's less productive to focus on how that bias arises and more productive to just critique each other's opinions. In the long run, I think this will lead to a body of knowledge that is more accurate than anything one individual could have come up with.

 

[Nu~]

I'll make a more detailed post when I get home, but pacman's viability doesn't drop off anywhere near as much as people tend to suggest once they learn the match up.

A much bigger issue plaguing lower level pacman players is the tendency to over-focus on learning ultra situational fruit and hydrant techs at the expense of the rest of their kit.

He's a character with a lot of depth and not a lot of players, he'll get better over time.

Very much this.
Lower level pacman players are full of "fluff" in a sense, because they have a shallow understanding of the character at large. They want to style and show off to their hearts content, but don't really have the solid nuetral game/fundamentals to last against people who know what counterplay pacman's tools have.

 

[verbatim]

Rant about high-level players

Statements like this are the reason "top level" players have stopped posting on forums.

Everyone is biased in some way, if you tear into the 5% of a top players tier list that you don't disagree with, they're going to stop sharing their opinions.

People who play this game and consistently win money from it have a better understanding of the metagame than people who don't. That doesn't make them infallible.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Statements like this are the reason "top level" players have stopped posting on forums.

Everyone is biased in some way, if you tear into the 5% of a top players tier list that you don't disagree with, they're going to stop sharing their opinions.

People who play this game and consistently win money from it have a better understanding of the metagame than people who don't. That doesn't make them infallible.

He asked why.

I proved information as to why people believe that. Were you around during Brawl's early-mid days by any chance? Because if you weren't, you wouldn't understand what I'm talking about. Some of the opinions tossed around back then by high/top level players were absolutely insane and ended up proven to be insane later on.

I never said anyone was infallible. But when top level players don't use easily accessible information and flat out state they are refusing to do so (results) its particularly bad because they're the people influencing the most opinions. There's a difference between "I want to see if X's recent results hold out over the long term before jumping on that bandwagon" and "I don't use results just my own opinion". One uses information from beyond a person's own scope, the other one is strictly that person's weighted experience (can't exactly see much first hand beyond your own area/majors) and biased opinion (everyone has a bias, what needs to be done is looking at data beyond your scope to counteract that)

 

[PK Gaming]

Almost every bad character in this game is like that. You really don't want to eat a punish from Roy, or Ganondorf, or Zelda, or Dedede, or Charizard, or Bowser Jr., or ...

I eat Roy's, Ganon's, Zelda's, DDD's and Jr's for breakfast :V

My record vs Bowser Jr. is less than satisfactory

 

[Thinkaman]

EDIT: If you're talking about the entire ~4 million strong Sm4sh playerbase then I'd agree with you. In fact, everyone here would probably be in the top 1%. But I don't think that's what you meant and it's kind of a cop-out.

That's exactly what I mean, though I cut it down to about 2 million, or roughly 40% of WiiU copies sold. This is my rough estimate for how many players internationally play Smash 4 with recurring regularity or specific interest. (I would put 50:50 odds that everyone here is in the top 2% of that, and I'd put 100:1 odds that everyone here is in the top 20%)

Every single competitive community does this thing where the people at the top want to draw a line around their clubhouse and say that You Must Be This Tall To Ride, that only the experiences of people above this line matter. But it's turtles all the way down, because every sub-community only propagates this behavior!

Zoom out. This is why:

• People on GameFAQs say their random cousins aren't real players and don't count.
• People on Facebook say the plebs on GameFAQs aren't real players and don't count.
• People on Smashboards say the trolls on Facebook aren't real players and don't count. (<-- YOU ARE HERE)
• Top 100 players on Twitter say "lol Smashboards".
• Zero makes YouTube videos dismissing what people say on Twitter.

Also see: Bronze/Silver/Gold/Platinum/Diamond/Master in League, as well as every other game ever.

We all agree that better players have converging, more consistent viewpoints that are more valuable data to game developers, as David Sirlin so eloquently put forth in his famous bulls-eye analogy. That's not what we're discussing; the question at hand is "Who is a member of the Smash community?"

If you say that only the top X% matter, then the bottom gets organically excluded over time and the process repeats itself again. It's tempting to try and establish some sort of standard, some line in the sand, like "Oh, anyone who goes to tournaments counts." But that's the same thing! Billy over here played in a tournament at his dorm. "Oh, that doesn't count. Only tournaments at the level of my local/regional/national count." You're still just drawing lines; and for what end?

It's exothermic, a force pulling the community towards defining itself out of existence. And we see this in every competitive game.

It's only when developers (or really ambitious TOs) step in and actually fight against it, and go out of their way to create non-toxic environments for less skilled players, that we see competitive communities thrive. (Riot, modern Capcom, Valve, Blizzard) The only exceptions in history have been games that slant towards masochism, addiction, and sunk-cost fallacy of execution skills developed, like Counter-Strike, original DotA, and to a limited extent Melee. And these factors only hedge against the exothermic trend, they certainly don't do anything to grow the community.

Harvey Penick said "If you play golf, you're my friend." and that's how I feel about Smash. If someone says they are a Smash player, I consider them part of the community full stop. As far as I'm concerned, every Smash player is a competitive tournament player, most of them just don't know it yet. That doesn't mean I'm going to give much credit to their opinion that their roommate's Charizard is "actually really scary and he's good character if you know what you are doing with him", but I can put those views into context without excluding the players behind them from my concept of the community.


I think it is imperative that we maintain a perspective of how wide our community is, because it is the biggest strength of our game. It is the very source of why we--from all of our different backgrounds and ages and interests--have all found our way to where we are today and gathered here in this very discussion.

 

[Djmarcus44]

@falln, in order to clearly address your post I will be quoting your post and responding to it one sentence at a time. Everything you said is in quotes, and my responses are going to come after.

"wrote some stuff got bodied by smashboard's back up and i dont want to write it again." You can PM me if you want to discuss your opinions on Gunner without getting a ton of posts in response.

"gunner's projectile game is quite atrocious." This is false on so many levels. Mii Gunner's fair is a great projectile because it has safety on perfect shielding and it has low landing lag. It also combos into many of Gunner's moves. Gunner's charge blast is also a good projectile because it only has 23 frames of ending lag (this makes it a useful tool in the neutral when combined with the fact that it can be charged and stored). Although Charge blast gets a lot of complaints because it doesn't kill as early as Charge shot, it still kills early enough to be a decent punish tool (this is especially true if Gunner confirms into charge blast from a weak flame pillar or gets the 50-50 from fair).

"everything is too weak/too laggy or both, you can literally waltz in with shield/powershield if you know the timing and if you don't it doesn't matter much because it takes so long for him to build damage you get many attempts at it." If there is a timing to get in on Gunner with perfect shield, then the Gunner player is being predictable. As @Swampasaur said, perfect shielding isn't that consistent at the top level because the other player can mix up their moves. Because fair is safe on perfect shielding, Gunner has fewer problems with perfect shielding than most of the cast. While Gunner's damage output isn't that great, it can be very good when the Gunner player can get a few mixups (I have gotten several 60% or higher damage strings against players that are better than me with my Gunner). In addition, mii gunner can easily get a lot of damage just from simply walling out opponents.

"once you're in he has nothing safe on block and gets nothing off throws." While it is true that Gunner's ground moves aren't safe on shield, Gunner's jab can be jab canceled in order to be safer on shield. Since all three hits of jab have similar frame disadvantage on shield (-10 on shield drop for jab 1, -11 on shield drop for jab 2, and -12 on shield drop for jab 3) Gunner can mix up the number of jabs used on shield in order to avoid getting punished as often. Mii Gunner actually gets true combos and tech chases from grabs, and the character has plenty of mixups from throws that can kill at decent percents (as I mentioned before these combos and follow ups are in the Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread). In fact, Gunner's up throw/Dthrow to up air is better than a 50-50 with a DI read (This is covered in the mii gunner kill setups and killing options thread).

"he struggles to get off the edge, struggles recovering, struggles getting out of juggles."
While Gunner's ledge get up can be somewhat punishable due to its extra invincible frames, the extra invincibility can be helpful for Gunner. Gunner also has one of the best ledge attacks in the game, and a good ledge jump and ledge roll. In addition, Gunner can also use the Lagless Ledge Get up option on some stages. While Gunner's recovery isn't good (this is the only point you got right in this sentence), Gunner can still mix it up with gundashing to the stage or stalling with reflector. Gunner can also use charge blast, fair or flame pillar to deter the opponent from edgeguarding. Gunner not only has a frame 3 reflector that can break combos, Gunner can also mix up his/her landing by stalling with reflector, gundashing, using flame pillar, or using Lunar Launch/lunar cancelling.

"unless you get dsmashed on a sv platform you're never going to die early." Down smash kills pretty early on the edge of the stage on any stage. While Gunner doesn't have much killing power, Gunner has several decently fast killing options.

"it's just all bad." Gunner has one of the best neutral games if not the best neutral game in Smash 4. Gunner also has a decent disadvantage state.

"i honestly wonder if anyone other than the gunner mains have played 20+ games with or against default gunner because if most people have i dont think there would really be much to discuss." Since you didn't want your Gunner knowledge to be questioned the last time you brought up your opinions on Gunner, the fact that you question the knowledge of most people on this thread about Gunner is somewhat hypocritical. Also, there are also a couple of people in my local scene, for example, that disagree with your stance on Gunner even though they have played Gunner 20+ times.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Most of the people I know from tri state aren't going to APEX because of the price alone. the venue fee is over $70, and then on top of that you gotta pay to enter the actual tournament. sheesh.

I also heard a lot of complaining about the KTAR having very poor air conditioning, and the venue being hot and cramped.

I was planning on going. Is the price of the entire event over $100?

 

[Mario766]

I was planning on going. Is the price of the entire event over $100?

It'll hit 100 after events.

 

[Das Koopa]

Iron Man; ANTi v. ZeRo

ZeRo started with Mario, ANTi with Bayonetta. Each match was 1-stock, giving both players 55 total.

result

Spoiler

The Iron Man was extremely close throughout the first hour. ANTi pulled away early with Cloud, but ZeRo's Diddy & Sheik both took a lot out of ANTi and evened it back up. From 42 to 30-ish, they kept trading a lot - ANTi's Greninja had a good run, ZeRo's Robin had a good run, but ANTi eventually got shut down by ZeRo's Kirby.

ZeRo's Kirby took 11 games, including ANTi's ZSS, before ultimately getting beat by Ganondorf, and ANTi's Sheik got stuffed by a Meta Knight stage spike. The Kirby streak pretty much broke ANTi down and put him at such a significant deficit that ZeRo could afford to lose a few matches. By the time ANTi was left with Luigi and Mario, ZeRo was on ROB, with 20 characters in reserve (from Ness to Bayo)

So yeah, ZeRo ran away with it a little more than halfway through and ended up closing it out with R.O.B.

 

[DblCrest]

Oh c'mon with Kirby of all characters?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Kirby is good anti approach with that crouch of his as well as solid grab and tilt conversion. Peeps gotta be patient and....well...we know how that goes.

 

[Mario766]

It's also 1 stock a character. You can get some pretty cheesy things happening if you only have to get 1 stock off.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I agree with most of what you said but what early kill setups does Rosalina have? She can kill early off the top with rage uairs but that's very situational and tons of characters can do this, it's hardly a Rosa exclusive.

40-50% kills off the top with Rosa is not that usual, especially on stages like Battlefield and Town and City. Uthrow/Gentleman into uair strings is pretty standard for Rosa. What is situational though is how Luma sometimes gets unusually high knockback for virtually no reason. Also, who are these characters that can consistently kill off the top this low? Characters like ZSS and Megaman basically need a hard read to make it happen.

 

[Aaron1997]

Sumabato 11 is tonight on SHI-gaming so here are the noables

Spoiler: Sumabato Notables

Komorikiri
9B
Earth
Shuton
Yusan
Fuwa
Shogun
Souther
OCEAN
HIKARU
Ri-ma
FILIP
Taiheta
Atelier
Aki
Ikep
Tea Was suppost to attend but drops out because of Health.

 

[Djent]

I actually had a ton of stuff written up to contribute to an event preview, but I don't think it'll be ready in time. Posting here instead:

Spoiler: Player Bios

Kamemushi wants to continue an impressive win streak that includes Kurobura, KSB 2016, and Umebura 23. He appears to be Japan's strongest player right now, and is even convinced he will win EVO! Is there anyone that can knock this guy down a peg? Given that he plays several characters at top level, it will prove quite difficult.
Earth is also in peak form, having recently won both Sumabato 10 and Nagobura (a small event at Nagoya University). Though he gravitates toward Pit at large tournaments, he used all three of his highly polished characters to take this second event. However, his record at recent Umeburas hasn't been so stellar.
Komorikiri dominated Japan throughout the early part of 2015. When he finished 13th at Sumabato 9, a lot of us thought it was just a fluke. Now that he also lost KSB and did even worse at Sumabato 10, it's beginning to look like he's in a bit of a slump. It's worth bearing in mind just how hard consistency is in Japanese Smash.
SHIG|9B decided he was having none of the Bayonetta nerfs and switched mains yet again. After landing in a disappointing 33rd place at Sumabato 10, he finally picked up steam at Hirosuma 4. Despite a shaky beginning, he managed to Shadow Claw his way through losers and win the tournament. Now he's looking quite strong again.
For a long time, Kie was overlooked in the hype surrounding Umeki, but now he appears to be Japan's strongest Peach. He emerged victorious in the ditto and attained two consecutive 7th place finishes at recent Sumabatos. Add in 5th place at Umebura 23, and you have the blossoming of an unimpeachable record.
Sigma and Ri-ma are two diligent players that continue to impress long after their breakout tournaments. Both performed exceptionally well at Sumabato 10. Sigma came very close to winning the entire event, falling only to Earth. Ri-ma eliminated Komorikiri in losers, but fell just short of top 8 thanks to the next player in this list!
Taiheita appeared like he'd soon be unstoppable, but his recent results haven't been quite as good as we initially expected. 7th place at Sumabato 10 was very impressive, but 7th place at Nagobura constituted an under-performance. He is easily still the world's strongest Lucas, but he has a ways to go before claiming other titles.
HIKARU and Atelier are both still in high school, but that doesn't stop either from taking people to school. HIKARU almost won Sumabato 10 (he finished 3rd) and Atelier finished 3rd at the event before that. How long will it be until one (or both) wins a major event? It seems quite likely to happen eventually.
Mangalitza placed 4th at Sumabato 10 having never before placed in the top 16. We don't know much about this player aside from what we saw there, which was certainly impressive. We can expect a decent or good performance, but what about another elite level one? This outcome is hard to forecast even for Japan.
You3 upset ikep and KEN at KSB, netting him an impressive 5th place finish. This is the best numerical result for any Japanese Duck Hunt at a major tournament. Sumabato 11 will be his first tournament since then. The bar is set high, but You3 is no stranger to agility courses.
Gomamugitya performed really well in early 2016, but has been struggling more recently. He lost in pools at KSB and failed to crack the top 16 at Sumabato 10. However, he did put on an impressive showing at Karisuma 7 in boths crews and 3v3.
Thanks to Shuton and FILIP , the island of Kyushu is well-represented this Sumabato. Shuton placed 2nd after an amazing losers bracket run at Umebura 22, and FILIP finished 5th at Umebura 23. Having already terrorized Kanto, they now focus their attack on Kansai!
ikep is Japan's strongest Bayonetta main now that 9B and Nyanko are focusing on other characters. He hasn't attended anything since KSB, where he went 0-2 in the final bracket. However, previous results show that he is more than capable of beating elite players.
Souther was one of 5 strong Falcon players present at Sumabato 10. At one point, half of the players remaining in winners used him! Unfortunately, his run was cut short by Japan's strongest Smash couple (Earth and Fuwa). He also finished 13th at KSB in May.
Oishiitofu exhibits the ribbit. He narrowly missed top 16 at KSB, where he was responsible for putting 4th place finisher Ginko into losers. More recently, he cracked top 16 for the first time at Sumabato 10. His tag literally translates to "delicious tofu."
Fuwa has improved tremendously over the past few months. She just missed top 8 at the last two Sumabatos and at Umebura 23. Her best wins include the likes of Komorikiri and Brood. It seems only a matter of time until she manages to exceed her current standard.
OCEAN emerged from power-saving mode to place 2nd at Hirosuma 4. He defeated FILIP, 9B, and Ri-ma (the other three favorites to win the event) before losing the rematch to 9B in grand finals. Notably, his competition here at Sumabato will be much tougher.
Rizeasu is usually seen repping the Fire Emblem series, but his arsenal extends well beyond that. He allegedly used 10 unique characters in bracket at Sumabato 10. Will he use 11 this time around? I'd like to establish some kind of pattern in his eccentric choices.
Shogun makes his return after missing two Sumabatos in a row. He did quite well at KSB despite his inactivity, finishing just outside of top 8. His team also won Karisuma 7 in fairly convincing fashion. All signs currently point to a promising return to form.
Gobu has yet to place well at a large tournament, but the potential is there. Earlier this month at Nagobura, he clutched out a win vs. Taiheita, making it all the way to winners finals. Let's hope he breathes new life into a character who hasn't been doing very well in Japan.
Vayseth is spending an extended period of time in Japan and documenting his travels in the Vayseth's Voyage series. He tells me he was self-conscious about entering such a stacked event, but was encouraged to do so by HIKARU. Let him know you're rooting for him!

Spoiler: Even more talent!

Tatsutsuyo, Chart-yatsu, and Ranperu
Lickey★, Lucia, and tk3
Lagnel and Kurousa
Take and SHIG|Shimitake
Ocsy and Umiushi
Gazer and Smasher
Z~Tan
Gabusan
Sopumo
WAX
RIN
Hatsuyuki
Nojinko
Dol
Tsumusuto
SHIG|Notti-
SHIG|JUN

Spoiler: Schedule (GMT+9)

10:30 a.m. Opening
10:45 a.m. Pool Block A
12:30 p.m. Pool Block B
2:15 p.m. Intermission
2:45 p.m. Bracket (main event)
7:00 p.m. Ending (approximate)

Spoiler: Pools (Bo1)

180 entrants total

EDIT: Looks like Aki signed up at the last minute. Neat!

 

[Asdioh]

Iron Man; ANTi v. ZeRo

ZeRo started with Mario, ANTi with Bayonetta. Each match was 1-stock, giving both players 55 total.

result

Spoiler

The Iron Man was extremely close throughout the first hour. ANTi pulled away early with Cloud, but ZeRo's Diddy & Sheik both took a lot out of ANTi and evened it back up. From 42 to 30-ish, they kept trading a lot - ANTi's Greninja had a good run, ZeRo's Robin had a good run, but ANTi eventually got shut down by ZeRo's Kirby.

ZeRo's Kirby took 11 games, including ANTi's ZSS, before ultimately getting beat by Ganondorf, and ANTi's Sheik got stuffed by a Meta Knight stage spike. The Kirby streak pretty much broke ANTi down and put him at such a significant deficit that ZeRo could afford to lose a few matches. By the time ANTi was left with Luigi and Mario, ZeRo was on ROB, with 20 characters in reserve (from Ness to Bayo)

So yeah, ZeRo ran away with it a little more than halfway through and ended up closing it out with R.O.B.

I skipped to a random time, saw Duck Hunt vs Kirby, saw Kirby get hit by a solid Fsmash (that would have killed him) but fell out after the first hit, watched the rest of that match and then stopped watching, feeling really bad for DH mains.

 

[juddy96]

Top 10 on Sumamate (Japanese online ladder) before Sumabato starts tonight (a lot of top tournament players also play wifi quite a bit)

1) Hitori 2092 points, 264-74
1) Ron 2092 points, 116-16
3) Shuton 2070 points, 75-22
4) FILIP 2037 points, 224-128
5) // 2011 points, 221-30
6) Masashi 2008 points, 70-21
7) ikep 2002 points, 61-31
8) Hitorotomu 2000 points, 56-11
9) Mangalica 1976 points, 61-17
10) Nga 1969 points, 69-22

 

[Aaron1997]

juddy96 Whos the bowser Jr? Has he like // where nobody knows who he is?

 

[Das Koopa]

for this weekend I have these tournies line up

Sumabato 11
Low Tier City 4
Apex 2015
Emerald City III

dunno if anything else breaks 90-100 entrants

 

[Jucchan]

for this weekend I have these tournies line up

Sumabato 11
Low Tier City 4
Apex 2015
Emerald City III

dunno if anything else breaks 90-100 entrants

Super SmashNest v8 is on Sunday but I'm not sure whether it will get 90 entrants since it's on Father's day.

 

[Ulevo]

Statements like this are the reason "top level" players have stopped posting on forums.

Everyone is biased in some way, if you tear into the 5% of a top players tier list that you don't disagree with, they're going to stop sharing their opinions.

I disagree with this. Any reasonable human being should acknowledge that when they give their opinion on a subject they are required to explain their position if it is not readily obvious. There are likely some players with egos who cannot afford to have outside opinions damage their own beliefs and intellectual perceptions, but I do not think that consists the majority of top players.

The honest truth is that you don't get **** done arguing with people on a forum who will never reach you in bracket. Top players know that the treasure of this game lies in the lab, their social network and on the floor, not in the forums. Talking theory is nice but half the time the theory that is discussed here is validated by the very players posters here seek to criticize for being biased.

The irony is the metagame would develop a lot faster if people would spend less time on here talking about Pikachu or Greninja or Cloud for the 50th time this week. There is nothing wrong with that, but it should be acknowledged:

 

[JustSomeScrub]

40-50% kills off the top with Rosa is not that usual, especially on stages like Battlefield and Town and City. Uthrow/Gentleman into uair strings is pretty standard for Rosa. What is situational though is how Luma sometimes gets unusually high knockback for virtually no reason. Also, who are these characters that can consistently kill off the top this low? Characters like ZSS and Megaman basically need a hard read to make it happen.

Rosa's downthrow/upthrow to uair is not a true combo.

She's great at frame trapping but most good characters have plenty of options to escape such juggling scenarios.

And 40-50 percent? If Rosa has significant rage, the character is lightweight, they are extremely high up and it's a stage with a low ceiling than maybe. That's a lot of factors that aren't always going to be true.

Watch multiple sets involving notable Rosa players, then notice how often it occurs. It's actually not that common.

 

[Mario766]

for this weekend I have these tournies line up

Sumabato 11
Low Tier City 4
Apex 2015
Emerald City III

dunno if anything else breaks 90-100 entrants

Breakout, Michigan's regional is tomorrow, and will feature talent from Michigan, Canada, possibly Ohio and Seagull Joe. Remzi and Pink Fresh was slated to come but they had flight issues.

It'll likely hit ~100.

 

[Djent]

Sumabato 11 is live on SHIG. @Tetra-76 was kind enough to translate pools here.

 

[juddy96]

for this weekend I have these tournies line up

Sumabato 11
Low Tier City 4
Apex 2015
Emerald City III

dunno if anything else breaks 90-100 entrants

Smash Factor Prelude in Mexico City has Mr. R, Leo, and Wonf so it might get 100 entrants

 

[TDK]

So ZeRo's Kirby is actually pretty solid. Wonder if he'll pick him up seriously.

Also, that commentator is world-class.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

These Iron Man challenges really show how important fundamentals are in smash. Do you think Anti or Zero spent hours with every character they played in those sets? Nah. They just know how to play this game.

 

[Ulevo]

So ZeRo's Kirby is actually pretty solid. Wonder if he'll pick him up seriously.

Also, that commentator is world-class.

ZeRo was calling him a 'top tier' at GOML, according to a friend of mine. I am sure this was just generalized way of saying 'good' character but given this and Hungrybox's recent tweet I think ZeRo has a high opinion of the character. I think Kirby is slept on.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I think what would be nice in this thread is Match analyzation. would help understand meta stuff on a deeper level.

I'll start( hold on, this'll take some time).

Took a while (cuz of laziness), but I'm doing it:

Now off the bat, this match is extremely free-form. The characters are everywhere and can't confine the other to a spot on the stage. Kills are spontaneously picked out of almost nowhere (until you observe the situation closely) and the players are just constantly pushing those attack buttons. However, you can see some sloppy play from both Venia and Mr. E as they both are just sooooo active. Though there's nothing wrong with playing active sometimes, playing active all the time leads to constant high-risk taking and that's really bad for trying to be consistent. There was a time where Mr.E was repeatedly ADing, trying to escape from venia's followup when it was obvious he was not close enough to hit with Uair (though he could've done Fair and would've had a chance of scoring a hit). The constant Rushdown, especially from Marth, is a very questionable action to perform and only one I could consider viable if you really know your opponent well (not to mention the MU). At 0:36, even though venia got the kill, the intention from his attack was to connect and it didn't since he chose the wrong move. He also kept using shurikens at the wrong distances (like point-blank range) and Mr.E showed some over-extension in game 1 as his Fairs got whiffed punish and his constant pressing of the attack left him punished for the lag. There were some moments later in game 1 where he whiff punished Venia on reaction and used Fair on shield to fade away and bait a response (which he did and punished well). He can have good patience though and it really showed at 1:29 where instead of trying to continue to edge guard Venia offstage, he lets it go and both players get back onto the stage. The reason for this is because if he tried to continue to edgeguard, he risked dying and the reward was slim since venia would've most likely made it back anyway.

In Game 2, I saw a couple of things that just outright didn't sit well with me. Both players were bum rushing to each other not only to perform the same action at the same time (shows me they wanted to do what they wanted to do without consideration of the other player), but I saw Venia performing the same exact action 3 times for it to connect. After that, I saw a bunch of scrambling that lead to unfavorable positions that showed some sense of positional advantage and disadvantage. However, what impressed me a lot was at 3:41 when Mr.E did a shield breaker and landed on the edge for safe pressure. Seeing that gave me a feeling of smart play to not only throw off venia's mental game, but to temporarily keep him from shielding much. another thing that impressed me was Venia AD punish on Mr.E, seeing that he loves to air dodge. Aside from player stuff, Marth really seems to struggle when he gets hit. Venia claimed a lot of percent on Mr.E during those moments and kept pushing him offstage, while Mr.E had to throw out hitboxes for Venia to run into them and claim a quick string conversion off of them.

Into Game 3, it seemed that Marth's disjoints caused Venia to play more passive and throw shurikens and whiff punish which he does. Mr.E continued to try to use Side B though it got him hit nearly every time he used it. I saw some adaption from Mr.E to venia's use of Dair to escape juggles though he did get edge guarded hard at 7:19, showing Marth's hugely exploitable recovery, though venia's punish game has shown to be pretty good at 7:45 with him attempting one of greninja's many footstool setups. Aside from this, I haven't found much note-worthy from this match as aside from some over extension and incorrect reading from Mr.E in trying to take the last stock from ledge-trapping and trying to punish side B.


Overall, I can say though they are really good at taking stocks from nowhere with reads and situation awareness, I believe they need to chill and try to slow the game down a little, especially on venia's part since he holds a good projectile and dash grab to punish anything with lag on the ground. He really only needed to do SH Fairs to provoke and then punish with dash grab because of the distance and range it holds. One trick he could've used was to stand still for approx 20 frames and went for a dash grab the moment Mr.E got greedy before the scrambling happened. I feel this could be a bad MU for Marth because of him being easily punish for any bad aerial he throws out and the fact that he has to approach a character who has a psuedo sword, strong punish game, and good edgeguarding capabilites. Marth can PS predictable shurikens and go for spaced Fairs a couple of times, then a SHFF into grab/shield breaker/wait then punish. However, this is my assumption and theorycraft based on what I've seen from this match and my knowledge of each characters abilities. Idk the results from this particular MU. Maybe Marth has to play aggro to throw off greninja and to take control of the game, idk and if someone has a different input, I would be glad to hear it.

EDIT: something else I thought about after making this: how about we also do match discussions? Somebody posts a match and people go to discuss what they've seen.

 

[Y2Kay]

Being aggro has historically been one of Venia's habits. It's one of the differences between iStudying and him that I have noticed.

 

[Das Koopa]

kamemushi drowned in pools because he sandbagged

kek

 

[Gunla]

kamemushi drowned in pools because he sandbagged

kek

I don't even know what to say. Who did he lose to?

But man, the saying that "Japan is inconsistent" lives another day.

 

[Jona Bon Boa]

for this weekend I have these tournies line up

Sumabato 11
Low Tier City 4
Apex 2015
Emerald City III

dunno if anything else breaks 90-100 entrants

Smash at Church. Socal regional this Saturday .

 

[Illuminose]

when das koopa says kamemushi sandbagged

he means that kamemushi literally went lucas and no mega man or cloud or yoshi or wario or any character he actually plays at all

 

[meticulousboy]

EDIT: something else I thought about after making this: how about we also do match discussions? Somebody posts a match and people go to discuss what they've seen.

Sounds like a good idea. It's probably what the thread needs. I am even subscribed to that YouTube channel. So I am in board. I am probably not as good with analysis as you, but it's a shot.