Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[williamsga555]

Now now, Dedede did get patched. They were just nerfs.

The 3DS meta was a strange beast. Wectoring is still the most tragic loss I've ever seen.

 

[Nobie]

The people who complain most loudly about the game's patches being neglectful are for those characters who have gotten the least patches (and are considered low tier).

I mean, it makes sense but still.

 

[Yonder]

Now now, Dedede did get patched. They were just nerfs.

The 3DS meta was a strange beast. Wectoring is still the most tragic loss I've ever seen.

Do you mean Vectoring? Cause if so, that was as bad as tripping. It made everyone live forever, combos not work (see Luigi) and Wario live to stupid high percents. Good riddance it is gone.

Or if you meant Wario Vectoring...still what i said above.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Slight pet peeve of mine. Probably the only real annoyance I've had with my short time on this thread.
Can we please stop trying to make MU ratios based on who beats who and what characters they were using? That's a lazy kneejerk reaction that no person attempting to lead the meta would have.
It's maddening to see things like:
"Nairo lost to a Mac, the MU must be losing"
"Nairo lost to a Robin, maybe the MU is even and not -2/3 like we thought"
"Larry's DK beat VoiD, Sheik loses to DK"
"ZeRo's lost to two Marios, Mario now beats Sheik and Diddy"
"Pikachu doesn't beat Fox because ESAM always loses to Larry"
etc
What I and MANY many others would like to see is:
"Man, Larry's DK is getting grabs for free and VoiD is never exploiting DK's horrible options off ledge with Sheik's amazing ledge trap game. This MU is being played terribly."
"Larry constantly rushed Trela's Ryu and didn't play the MU optimally. I don't think this is indicative of how things should play out at top level"
At LEAST watch the videos and provide specific examples of interactions and support WHY one would think that way. You might actually come to a logical conclusion this time.

 

[Ninety]

Do you mean Vectoring? Cause if so, that was as bad as tripping. It made everyone live forever, combos not work (see Luigi) and Wario live to stupid high percents. Good riddance it is gone.

Or if you meant Wario Vectoring...still what i said above.

No, he means Wectoring. A Wario-specific glitch that allowed him to redirect his momentum when launched and live virtually forever.

 

[FullMoon]

I mean

They nerfed Dedede's air speed a while ago

I don't think they're gonna be buffing him anytime soon. Clearly the devs have a better view on Dedede than we do.

 

[TriTails]

I mean

They nerfed Dedede's air speed a while ago

I don't think they're gonna be buffing him anytime soon. Clearly the devs have a better view on Dedede than we do.

When was it lmao.

As if having 0.65[whatevernumberstheyare] value is not bad enough already.

But serious question tho.

WHEN WAS IT. I don't recall having read the change in any of the patch notes.

 

[G. Stache]

Do you mean Vectoring? Cause if so, that was as bad as tripping. It made everyone live forever, combos not work (see Luigi) and Wario live to stupid high percents. Good riddance it is gone.

Or if you meant Wario Vectoring...still what i said above.

Nah, I wouldn't say that it's as bad as tripping...
It was WORSE. At least tripping was inconsistent.

Anyways, moving on to something I saw get mentioned earlier. Maybe I'm just a spoiled Luigi player, but Mario's jab is really meh from my perspective. Not enough hitstun to really lead reliably into anything, and it's probably best to just complete the jab. It's not a bad jab, per se (It's frame 2 and is essentially a free 8% + you get opponents off of you), but it's short ranged and isn't something you want to use a whole lot when Mario's got better buttons to press most of the time. Other than that, one thing I don't see a whole lot from Mario (maybe it's just me not noticing it) is his d smash being used a whole lot at high level play. Is there a reason for this? It seems like a really underrated d smash to me. Frame 5, great angle for edguarding/straight up killing horizontally, low recovery frames, decent power. I'm just wondering if I'm just not paying attention to what Mario's doing, and I'm just not seeing the d smash come out

When was it lmao.

As if having 0.65[whatevernumberstheyare] value is not bad enough already.

But serious question tho.

WHEN WAS IT. I don't recall having read the change in any of the patch notes.

Either 1.1.5 or 1.1.4. Went from ~0.65 to 0.63. Doesn't matter too much in the grand scheme of things, but it's really the thought that counts.

 

[C0rvus]

When was it lmao.

As if having 0.65[whatevernumberstheyare] value is not bad enough already.

But serious question tho.

WHEN WAS IT. I don't recall having read the change in any of the patch notes.

Back in the 3DS days if I'm not mistaken. Remember, they also nerfed Little Mac as well. I think they even said For Glory was a major source of information for balancing the game at the time, and Dedede is still a terror on Wi-Fi. Back then with better Gordos I can't even imagine... He also had more throw combos I think? Or at least hie down throw had a better angle. Tbqh having those things wouldn't make him much better, unless it made down throw > up air a true kill confirm. Gordos will always be bad in neutral if they can be hit back at all.

I am kind of a Dedede optimist, I gotta say. Maybe it's personal experience or lack thereof, but I've seen some ****. Character isn't totally awful. Ledge shenanigans are strong.

 

[BunbUn129]

1.1.4 was the patch that nerfed D3's air speed (0.658 -> 0.63). Quite possibly the saddest nerf I've seen during this game's life time.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Utilt and ftilt, everything else was ok or able to SDI out of like Nair or Dair.
Unless you mean Fsmash, you should never be getting hit by that move.

Also patching is adding things to make moves strong.
DK/Bowser Uthrow Uair setups as an example of many they've done with patches, since I guess to the balance team some characters will become monsters if they're given X throw into X aerial.

Grenades, Ftilt, Utilt, Usmash (cuz DACUS), Down B (kills, can control the stage, recovery, helps snake get back onto the stage, edge guard, etc...). Ftilt, Utilt, and Grenades are the biggest culprits and are by far way more busted than anything smash 4 related.

And you're talking about grab combos, I'm talking about single moves.

 

[Das Koopa]

pools prediction for NotSoApex and Low Tier City 4

Apex:
https://smash.gg/tournament/apex-2016/brackets/11350/5558

Spoiler

A1: Dabuz
A2: VoiD
A3: Marss
A4: Mew2KIng
A5: Tweek
A6: 6WX
A7: RAIN
A8: Nietono
B1: Mister Eric
B2: John Numbers
B3: Mr. E
B4: Pugwest
B5: C3PO
B6: Umeki
B7: SuperGirlKels
B8: Oni Day

most of these are obvious but i think Kels will go first in B7 over Raptor, but it could go either way

LTC4:
https://smash.gg/tournament/low-tier-city-4/brackets/11426/7344

Spoiler

A1: Dakpo
A2: MJG
B1: ZeRo
B2: ESAM
B3: Hyuga
C1: Nairo
C2: MVD
D1: KJ
D2: Karna
D3: Gnes
E1: Cheezeballer
E2: SaSSY
F1: Jerm
F2: Wizzrobe
F3: P2P With Gibus

 

[Mario766]

You think Dakpo will beat DKWill?

Last time they played, DKWill demolished Dakpo 3-0 before the latest ZSS nerfs.

 

[Greward]

Do you mean Vectoring? Cause if so, that was as bad as tripping. It made everyone live forever, combos not work (see Luigi) and Wario live to stupid high percents. Good riddance it is gone.

Or if you meant Wario Vectoring...still what i said above.

Vectoring still exists, only horizontally though.

The main reason everyone lived forever is that 3ds blast zones are ****ing big.

 

[meleebrawler]

Nah, I wouldn't say that it's as bad as tripping...
It was WORSE. At least tripping was inconsistent.

Anyways, moving on to something I saw get mentioned earlier. Maybe I'm just a spoiled Luigi player, but Mario's jab is really meh from my perspective. Not enough hitstun to really lead reliably into anything, and it's probably best to just complete the jab. It's not a bad jab, per se (It's frame 2 and is essentially a free 8% + you get opponents off of you), but it's short ranged and isn't something you want to use a whole lot when Mario's got better buttons to press most of the time. Other than that, one thing I don't see a whole lot from Mario (maybe it's just me not noticing it) is his d smash being used a whole lot at high level play. Is there a reason for this? It seems like a really underrated d smash to me. Frame 5, great angle for edguarding/straight up killing horizontally, low recovery frames, decent power. I'm just wondering if I'm just not paying attention to what Mario's doing, and I'm just not seeing the d smash come out

Mario's dsmash hardly ever kills compared to his usmash, which works in many of the same situations with better payoff. Not even when setting up edgeguards since unless the opponent is susceptible to FLUDD or Cape gimps, Mario isn't exactly proficient at edgeguarding low, relying mainly on stage spikes. Compare that to Doc's which actually has some real power behind it and couples it with a great low edgeguard in tornado, or Luigi's which is almost stupidly powerful on the back hit for it's safety.

Most of Mario's moveset is vertically oriented; his tilts send opponents up as does his dair and uair. His dsmash just doesn't fit as anything but an occasional roll panic button.

 

[my_T]

You think Dakpo will beat DKWill?

Last time they played, DKWill demolished Dakpo 3-0 before the latest ZSS nerfs.

I think Will can pull it off just because of how solid he is as a player but this match-up (ZSS) is trash for DK when played properly so I wouldn't be surprised if he lost

 

[Fatmanonice]

Probably already been talked about to death by this point but in the past month Zero has lost to Anti, Mew2king, and Ally not once but twice. What is this game anymore?

Onto other things, nobody really seems to talk about Rosalina anymore. I remember with 1.1.5 and how people said she'd probably be a close second at worse but, for someone who has never really dropped below top 5, she now seems like one of the least talked up top/high tiers aside from Villager and Metaknight. Is the Cloud matchup really that disastrous or did I miss something at some point?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Grenades, Ftilt, Utilt, Usmash (cuz DACUS), Down B (kills, can control the stage, recovery, helps snake get back onto the stage, edge guard, etc...). Ftilt, Utilt, and Grenades are the biggest culprits and are by far way more busted than anything smash 4 related.

And you're talking about grab combos, I'm talking about single moves.

I didn't wanna touch this subject again as long as people didn't quote me but... I'm talking about single moves too. I don't see anywhere in my posts where I said "grabs only are busted" I even said Limit and MK shuttle loop as a couple examples.

Anyways before I drop the topic fully before we go into horrid theorycrafting territory, or rather pointless arguing?


DACUS or not, Usmash wasn't a problem from snake. Anytime he used it, it was basically to get to you if he knocked you away. Sure he got stage control by using it but it wasn't busted.
DownB giving him more recovery is stupid but that's not really busted since he can't ledge snap from upB and it was relatively easy for almost the entire cast to edgeguard him unless he recovered high, grenades controlled the pace of the game more than downb especially since he can pull them out frame 1 and the reason he could get out of some chaingrabs like pikachu or D3.


While utilt is a fast huge kill move, dunno how that's stronger than limit cross slash mac KO punch Luma anything or rage from any heavyweight that can kill people at 0%. Or even moves like Mario upB capable of killing people by doing .5% due to rage and KBG, there's at least 30ish or so moves in this game like that where people can kill super early or even at 0% cause lol rage (like nairo beating zero for the first time killing him at like 40, or most recent killing Void at 50ish%)
Or Bayonetta's entire playstyle before the nerfs IC esque but without grabs?

Which was my point before, Smash 4 just offers less chances to auto-pilot and play slow cause you gotta always be aware of the super strong moves like the above few examples or possibly rage messing up your face by playing on point always.

Sure characters like MK can death ladder to the top to finish with shuttle loop or tornado, and IC taking a stock off a single mistake if they're good, but you could at least get out from either if they messed up while Smash 4 you most likely lose your stock by complete accident from both sides not thinking it'd happen cause lol rage destroying you under 10%

Spoiler: examples of this great mechanic in action

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oChsO0-iP0Q&feature=youtu.be&t=1174
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuG6T_25SEw&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faXnOd-RC7s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1N1o_eCpT0&feature=youtu.be&t=149
https://oddshot.tv/shot/VGBootCamp/UzpJm1ZRJm1AWYKuLeoZCWQg

 

[TDK]

Probably already been talked about to death by this point but in the past month Zero has lost to Anti, Mew2king, and Ally not once but twice. What is this game anymore?

Onto other things, nobody really seems to talk about Rosalina anymore. I remember with 1.1.5 and how people said she'd probably be a close second at worse but, for someone who has never really dropped below top 5, she now seems like one of the least talked up top/high tiers aside from Villager and Metaknight. Is the Cloud matchup really that disastrous or did I miss something at some point?

I think it's more that everyone knows that Rosa is top 5 at worst (and IIRC has never been lower) and just moves on. She hasn't been touched by patches so there's not much new to talk to with her. She's the token really good new character.

 

[meticulousboy]

On the topic of Mario, I am curious about some of his matchups, particularly against Ike. How does Mario fare against Ike?

 

[Mario766]

On the topic of Mario, I am curious about some of his matchups, particularly against Ike. How does Mario fare against Ike?

FLUDD and Cape are gimmicks.

Ike doesn't like gimmicks.

 

[Das Koopa]

You think Dakpo will beat DKWill?

Last time they played, DKWill demolished Dakpo 3-0 before the latest ZSS nerfs.

Dakpo has powered up lately, I'm confident he'll at least keep it close.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Not sure what he is trying to say here. Is he saying that you have to play differently depending on the opposition?

If so... duh? How you play against Ryu should be different from how you play MK. Strategies should change based on the opposition, I would be worried if a character could just run through the opposition using the same strats.

Sadly there are games where such things are possible.

 

[meticulousboy]

FLUDD and Cape are gimmicks.

Ike doesn't like gimmicks.

I had a feeling. Granted, I was only asking because IIRC Mario has trouble with characters with swords, unless that character is from Hyrule who constantly plays the keep away game.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Brawl Mario was bad because his air speed was too atrocious to complement his fast aerials.

Mario got his air speed tripled in Sm4sh with his kit barely changing a bit beyond Fsmash's flame hitbox being much stronger. Everyone can see what that one buff alone did for him.

It's easy to say that Mario lacking kill confirms sets him back, but he makes up for that with safety from getting KO'd himself, as well as suffocating you with his kit anyway. When his opponent is at kill percents, they effectively can never come in from the air again lest they risk an invincible Usmash punish with no endlag to punish it if its dodged. So they're forced to be grounded, where Mario has RAR f5 Bair, f2 Jab, and stutterstep Fsmash and Usmash to threaten.

He lacks guaranteed ways to kill, sure. But how are you going to get your kills?

This.

Also one of the biggest buffs to Mario in this game is no ledge hogging. This improves his recovery by a ridiculous amount which used to be a big weakness for him, possibly the biggest weakness he had. His Up B has dijointed range and is extremely hard to interrupt allowing him to recover for free often in situations where in previous games he'd be gimped. And his great air mobility means he often doesn't even need to up B with good DI anyway.

On paper Mario doesn't seem like a top tier because people's definition of what makes a character OP is not always accurate when it comes to Smash 4. The top tiers in this game are not nearly as ridiculous after all the nerfs compared to previous games.

So in the context of this game, I'd argue Mario is top tier even if by Melee or Brawl standards he wouldn't be. He has great damage output (easily one of the best in the game everytime he gets in), amazing autocancel aerials by Smash 4 standards, probably the best Smash attacks in the game (as far as KO power/hitboxes versus cooldown goes) and so forth.

At the very least I think his Smash attacks need to be toned down. If at top level play a player can spam up smashes and be rewarded for it, that's a problem. And let's not pretend there's some advanced conditioning/reading going on. I've literally seen top Mario's spam up Smash until it worked (and it did work). It's not that their opponents didn't know it was coming, they just had no way of stopping it/punishing it well.

 

[Mario766]

I had a feeling. Granted, I was only asking because IIRC Mario has trouble with characters with swords, unless that character is from Hyrule who constantly plays the keep away game.

Ike vs Mario is fine in neutral, but any recovery option by Ike is basically blown apart by the combo of Fludd and Cape besides QD to ledge. Ally even blew apart a simple, low charge QD to platform for an auto cancel by fludding it, then caping which sent Ike basically the length of Battlefield straight to a semi-spike.

If Fludd didn't absolutely destroy Aether, the MU could honestly be even.

 

[TimidKitsune129]

So...

Cosmos just beat Hyuga at Shockwave 86.

>

Cosmos is making quite a name for himself~

 

[ARGHETH]

So...

Cosmos just beat Hyuga at Shockwave 86.

>

Cosmos is making quite a name for himself~

Coming from loser's, too.

 

[sedrf]

tfw people overstate like he could throw his controller at a wall and win
the guy was busted but people overrate the hell out of him like .

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Ike vs Mario is fine in neutral, but any recovery option by Ike is basically blown apart by the combo of Fludd and Cape besides QD to ledge. Ally even blew apart a simple, low charge QD to platform for an auto cancel by fludding it, then caping which sent Ike basically the length of Battlefield straight to a semi-spike.

If Fludd didn't absolutely destroy Aether, the MU could honestly be even.

If neutral is even in this matchup, doesn't that mean Mario wins since his damage output is going to be a lot higher everytime he gets in? I can't see Ike comboing Mario harder than Mario comboes Ike.

 

[Illusion.]

Nice to see something from . I've never understood why people think he/she is mediocre.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

tfw people overstate like he could throw his controller at a wall and win
the guy was busted but people overrate the hell out of him like .

Indeed.

MK didn't come close to winning every Brawl major, he was very much beatable. Other top tiers had decent matchups against him, it's not like he steamrolled them. Some even argued he went even with the likes of Falco (there were results to justify this) and actually lost to Ice Climbers on FD. Diddy, Snake, Marth and ZSS did well versus him as well.

In other words his dominance results wise is similar to Melee Fox where he was vastly overused but other top tiers could compete with him. But people love to hate on Brawl and have double standards because documentary.

However he was significantly better than any top tier in this game. It seems in this game picking a top tier doesn't let you invalidate most of the cast the way it does in Melee and Brawl.

 

[Mario766]

If neutral is even in this matchup, doesn't that mean Mario wins since his damage output is going to be a lot higher everytime he gets in? I can't see Ike comboing Mario harder than Mario comboes Ike.

Mario combos last longer, but do insanely less damage per hit than Ike's. Mario also has to get much more percent than Ike to get kill percent, unless he gets a gimp. Honestly the combos aren't terrible, Mario gets 2 up-tilts then has to start aerialing or Ike jumps out.

 

[Quantumpen]

Mewtwo's nair is a lot better than you guys think, it's definitely useable in neutral, it's pretty hard to punish, and the hitbox is deceptively large, especially on start-up against taller characters (partially owing to Mewtwo's ability to move during the move)

Point by point.:

Frame 7 is really not that bad, you just can't use it in absolute CQC. You can can control your momentum during the move very well, and as long as you drift into opponents you can get punishes constantly using OOS nair against any number of mispaced aerial approaches (which mewtwo tends to force via the d-tilt/fair/sball wall of frustration). For example, drift into a Diddy fair OOS and you'll beat it -- something I hope Mewtwo players start doing in this match-up.

Secondly, Nair has a much bigger hitbox than people think and you can absolutely use it in neutral. As long as you're playing with tilt-stick you can control the direction you drift afterwards -- and it's very safe. You can't throw it out full-screen, but it beats a lot of options in CQC if you're around Mewtwo's jab-range, it combos into all kinds of things, and if they shield it you're fine since they can't challenge between hits and you can just drift through/fast-fall and pick a defensive option. Abadango does this all the time, and people still fail to punish him for it -- because it's actually really difficult (impossible for most characters).

The move is very easy to combo out of as long as you know your percents. The mistake most people make is trying to predict which side the enemy will pop out of, but really you can just react. In certain situations you can control the pop-out as well (full hop nair, ff-6 hit nair from the front or RAR) with specific DI. Sure it takes a while to learn all of this, but it's not as bad as people think.
Basically just nair, stay vertical, DI away in a direction at the apex of your short hop and the enemy will either land right in front of you or right behind you (sheik you can get in front of you 100%, some other characters will end up behind you -- but it's not random). Then you can footstool disable, turn-around d-tilt, grab, and so many other things...

It's a really good move, people who think it's bad are wrong or must be throwing it out at the wrong range.

 

[blackghost]

Nice to see something from . I've never understood why people think he/she is mediocre.

corrin is/was seen as medicore 1 because she launched simultanuously with bayo (really hard to seem relevant) 2. even at launch was seen as a lesser seord user than cloud and some people said ike and marth were better 3. corrin got nerfed in movement speed whicj never dors anyone any favors.
i still tgink the character is meh at best but not unviable.

 

[Jehtt]

Secondly, Nair has a much bigger hitbox than people think and you can absolutely use it in neutral.

Spoiler: Hitbox

The problem with Nair is that it loses to pretty much any hitbox. It will also (almost) never trade favorably since it is a multihit. I can see it being useful in a few situations, such as the one you described about counter-hitting an OOS aerial... but for almost every other scenario I can't see it being used over Fair. Fair is larger, quicker, safer, does more damage, and can still lead to followups at low percents.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Mewtwo's nair is a lot better than you guys think, it's definitely useable in neutral, it's pretty hard to punish, and the hitbox is deceptively large, especially on start-up against taller characters (partially owing to Mewtwo's ability to move during the move)

Point by point.:

Frame 7 is really not that bad, you just can't use it in absolute CQC. You can can control your momentum during the move very well, and as long as you drift into opponents you can get punishes constantly using OOS nair against any number of mispaced aerial approaches (which mewtwo tends to force via the d-tilt/fair/sball wall of frustration). For example, drift into a Diddy fair OOS and you'll beat it -- something I hope Mewtwo players start doing in this match-up.

Secondly, Nair has a much bigger hitbox than people think and you can absolutely use it in neutral. As long as you're playing with tilt-stick you can control the direction you drift afterwards -- and it's very safe. You can't throw it out full-screen, but it beats a lot of options in CQC if you're around Mewtwo's jab-range, it combos into all kinds of things, and if they shield it you're fine since they can't challenge between hits and you can just drift through/fast-fall and pick a defensive option. Abadango does this all the time, and people still fail to punish him for it -- because it's actually really difficult (impossible for most characters).

The move is very easy to combo out of as long as you know your percents. The mistake most people make is trying to predict which side the enemy will pop out of, but really you can just react. In certain situations you can control the pop-out as well (full hop nair, ff-6 hit nair from the front or RAR) with specific DI. Sure it takes a while to learn all of this, but it's not as bad as people think.
Basically just nair, stay vertical, DI away in a direction at the apex of your short hop and the enemy will either land right in front of you or right behind you (sheik you can get in front of you 100%, some other characters will end up behind you -- but it's not random). Then you can footstool disable, turn-around d-tilt, grab, and so many other things...

It's a really good move, people who think it's bad are wrong or must be throwing it out at the wrong range.

you forgot to mention the fact that between the final active frame and the last hitbox there are only 6 frames, one of the fastest in the game

 

[Yikarur]

This image is be pre-patch.

Post-Patch Nair:
https://zippy.gfycat.com/ScaryYellowishBrahmanbull.webm

 

[Pyr]

Spoiler: Hitbox

The problem with Nair is that it loses to pretty much any hitbox. It will also (almost) never trade favorably since it is a multihit. I can see it being useful in a few situations, such as the one you described about counter-hitting an OOS aerial... but for almost every other scenario I can't see it being used over Fair. Fair is larger, quicker, safer, does more damage, and can still lead to followups at low percents.

Nair Shield-pokes like a god, is rather safe overall, combos into things at all percents, leads into Up-Smash at kill percents, leads into footstool>disable, doesn't stale fair (so fair pokes lead to kills earlier), catches air-dodges for free since it's out for a total of 33 frames between all the hits, can gimp handily...

There's more, but I'm lazy and don't want to list all it's applications and advantages over Fair. It may lose to many hitboxes, but then you're not trying to out-button people with Nair. Also, as Yikarur said, the hitbox is a ton better now.

It's not something you lead off of willy-nilly, but it's got its applications too.

 

[Sleek Media]

Since everyone's been taking about Cloud, here's my two cents:

He is braindead, gets unbelievable reward with limit camping, a monstrously oppressive aerial game that works just as well against grounded opponents, crazy mobility and mixups with limit, and has a huge risk-reward imbalance across his entire design.

His supposed "weakness" of poor recovery almost never comes into play.

He has no counter picks and arguably no disadvantages at all.

Fighting him is an absolute chore. Yeah sure, I can beat him, I main Mega Man. All I have to do is walk on eggshells and make absolutely no mistakes with my spacing, and the neutral is mine. Doesn't make it fun though. He's a stifling character that offers no room for creativity on his opponent's part. He's so simple that even bad Clouds will get their shots in before they go down.

There are two things I would like to see nerfed:

1) Limit no longer grants a movement boost. That was a horrible, insane idea. Perma-speed monado? There should also be a condition to make him lose limit if he does not use it so that you don't have a "kills you at 70%" gun pointed at your head the entire second half of the first stock.

2) No more braindead auto cancel aerials. Maybe let him keep the cancel on fAir or even bAir, but uAir and dAir offer insane damage and knock back while being virtually unpunishable for most of the cast. The hitboxes are too big to even contest. Fast fall uAir spam is the dumbest thing since Mario's USmash, and like Mario's USmash, you can spam it at high level play and it will work. That should tell you something.