Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TDK]

Why not just create Smash 4- and buff everyone to oblivion?

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Id say if I were to nerf Cloud I would add maybe a tiny bit more of charge time to limit, reduce KB on LCS, and shrink a few hitboxes. Hes not that insane or bonkers, but as a Cloud player Ill admit that I largely want some nerfs to him because 1. I do think LCS is dumb sometimes, and 2. (this is the main reason) I get really tired of all the constant hate and criticism that people throw at us. Sure I think some parts of him are overtuned but I dont think hes ruining the meta or toxic.

Your icon complements the content in your message spectacularly.

As someone who mains a top tier with enough of his own jank to contest Cloud, I'm not personally dying to see him get nerfed. However, there is plenty of room for reasonable changes to his kit that would give a lot of mid tiers an easier time dealing with him while keeping him fun to play as. Making LCS either more punishable or slightly weaker would make his killing power less terrifying, and perhaps even adjusting some of his hitboxes, though less necessary, would help his harder matchups.

I will admit though, some of his overpowering matchups are the fault of undertuned tools on the part of his opponent. As crazy as his juggling game is, it can only get so much more manageable when you have characters that simply cannot land (,,,). As strong as his camping game is, it can only get so much more manageable when you have characters who cannot approach for **** (,,). In that respect, I think buffs to low and mid tiers is necessary for the sake of making Cloud less problematic for said characters, and for making this game's balance that much better. It's a two man effort!

 

[PK Gaming]

What's interesting and what isn't is indeed entirely subjective. I think my post convinced you just fine. I'd like to think we don't always have to say "in my opinion" after every sentence just to make sure everyone understands we're not claiming something is objective, especially when we never even mention that word. Variety by itself, however, is less likely to desensitize you than simple repetition by itself is. A bunch of other things play a part, like how watching DK fish for a grab the entire match can still be hype because of the whole upset factor behind it, but more options being available always yields higher capability for something being interesting than less options being available do

Fair enough.

Palutena is possibly the least scary character for me to fight against personally (without customs of course), and she does not have the kit nor the results that offer good reasons to think she isn't in the bottom ~20% of characters. There are no arguments to be made for Palutena that can't be made for just about every other character in the game.

That's nothing more than anecdotal evidence on your part, though. There are unique arguments to be made for Palutena that don't apply to similarly mediocre characters because she has actual tournament results via IceNinja and Prince Ramen.

Ike's neutral consists of grab, jab, fair, bair and dtilt, and his advantage consists of throw combos. His smashes are terrible (utilt, ftilt and dash attack are basically his smashes) and his specials are all either strictly recovery moves or niche in their usage. "Bull****" has nothing to do with anything, as I'm talking about straightforward gameplans here. Mewtwo isn't perfect but he's a more versatile character.

False claim. Ike also has Nair for spacing, traps and combos, and while his smashes are indeed terrible, Upsmash is a situational, but viable KO option (which more or less falls in line with most sword wielding characters and their niche smash attacks). Furthermore, Ike's moveset has excellent flow. He isn't sticking to one option, but rather various options depending on the game state. He has good spacing options and a surprisingly strong up close game due to his grab follow ups, but limited mobility and a large frame to compensate. He's a straightforward character, but hardly a problematic one.

I also think the quantity of viable moves isn't important, but it's how they're used. Ike isn't solely relying on the same options to get him through a match, and it's extremely myopic to place him in the same category as Donkey Kong and Bowser.

I'm not denying that he's less versatile than Mewtwo, but versatility isn't inherently a good thing. (Pre-patch Sheik was versatile and the definition of problematic). I don't dislike Mewtwo, but to imply that he's somehow better balanced than Ike despite having a blatantly overtuned option in the form of Fair seems very suspect to me.

 

[DunnoBro]

Cloud Limit balancing idea: Limit doesn't fully fill up until someone hits Cloud.

He can charge the Limit all the way up to the near max, but he can't hit max until someone hits him.

No one would be forced to engage him, especially with a percent lead, and if Cloud decides to engage, he risks getting hit to get Limit activated, but then also risks getting sent offstage from the hit and be forced to use Limit UpB.


It would give Cloud control of the match, but at the same time somehow no control at all. At the very least, this sort of interaction would be unique.

That wouldn't really make sense though, nor directly solve any issues. It'd just give an arbitrary condition to the BS known as limit.

Really, they need to switch how much limit charges when he gets hit. Without ANY charging, 100% on him 100% on the opponent ensures 1.5 charges per stock.

If it weren't for his insane mobility while in limit, thus making his ability to grab the ledge without using limit upb better, it wouldn't be an issue. Because then the risk/reward of his otherwise RIDICULOUS risk/reward skew would make sense.

The mobility while he has limit needs to be nerfed. That's the reason every character who can't deal with him has that issue. Limit is like luma or banana, you can't reliably keep him from getting it and he wasn't designed so that you could. They need to make his passive benefits less ridiculous.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Im just hoping Cloud doesnt turn into the next Bayonetta, where everyone goes out of their way to trash on Cloud players and treat them like pests/dirt. While we can say what we want about pre patch Bayo it was 100% inappropriate how the community at large went about treating her players. I worry that if we dont get another patch that in maybe a month or so people will begin doing the same thing to Cloud as to what they did to Bayonetta players.
There are ways to deal with Cloud and I dont believe he absolutely destroys the entire cast like ppl make it out to be, but I can understand why ppl would want dair and LCS nerfed or hitboxes shrunk, but nerfing his mobility seems rather silly.

If anything what would happen if they nerfed LCS would be that he would lose the one LB move that he can use with little chance to punish and can kill. Limit blade beam is pretty weak, Limit Climbhazard doesnt kill till 100ish and is easy to dodge, and Finishing touch has no true set ups or anything and as such is purely read based and leaves cloud wide open to be punished. Its not so much limit that people hate but LCS itself. Its his main and easiest kill option and I agree that its overtuned, but not busted. I wouldnt be sad or mad if they nerfed it, if anything I would understand. But lets not turn his other decent aspects into something thats overly broken or "insanely stupid", cause they arent.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

LCS can kill a lot earlier than 100 percent depending where they are on stage and rage. Limit Blade Beam's KO potential is really good too for such a fast projectile.

At any rate I think an ideal nerf for Cloud regarding limit is just to increase the time it takes to charge it. Smash 4 is far too slow of a game for him to charge as fast as he does. He can just grab/hit you and send you away offstage once at mid-high percents and he probably has enough time to get half a bar right there.

If Cloud could only do his limit attacks half as often, it'd work wonders in balancing the character.

 

[verbatim]

That wouldn't really make sense though, nor directly solve any issues. It'd just give an arbitrary condition to the BS known as limit.

Really, they need to switch how much limit charges when he gets hit. Without ANY charging, 100% on him 100% on the opponent ensures 1.5 charges per stock.

This.

As an aside, it's really dumb when you steal a Cloud's jump and the hit gives him limit so it doesn't matter.

 

[|RK|]

Im just hoping Cloud doesnt turn into the next Bayonetta, where everyone goes out of their way to trash on Cloud players and treat them like pests/dirt. While we can say what we want about pre patch Bayo it was 100% inappropriate how the community at large went about treating her players. I worry that if we dont get another patch that in maybe a month or so people will begin doing the same thing to Cloud as to what they did to Bayonetta players.
There are ways to deal with Cloud and I dont believe he absolutely destroys the entire cast like ppl make it out to be, but I can understand why ppl would want dair and LCS nerfed or hitboxes shrunk, but nerfing his mobility seems rather silly.

If anything what would happen if they nerfed LCS would be that he would lose the one LB move that he can use with little chance to punish and can kill. Limit blade beam is pretty weak, Limit Climbhazard doesnt kill till 100ish and is easy to dodge, and Finishing touch has no true set ups or anything and as such is purely read based and leaves cloud wide open to be punished. Its not so much limit that people hate but LCS itself. Its his main and easiest kill option and I agree that its overtuned, but not busted. I wouldnt be sad or mad if they nerfed it, if anything I would understand. But lets not turn his other decent aspects into something thats overly broken or "insanely stupid", cause they arent.

I don't think Cloud players will get the same ire Bayo players got if only because pretty much everyone plays him lol.

Bayo was seen as "0-to-death, the character" - people still respect Cloud. Probably because he doesn't "look" broken on the surface. Same thing that happened with pre-patch Sheik, I think. Main difference is Cloud's way easier to play.

 

[Trifroze]

I also think the quantity of viable moves isn't important, but it's how they're used. Ike isn't solely relying on the same options to get him through a match, and it's extremely myopic to place him in the same category as Donkey Kong and Bowser.

I'm not denying that he's less versatile than Mewtwo, but versatility isn't inherently a good thing. (Pre-patch Sheik was versatile and the definition of problematic). I don't dislike Mewtwo, but to imply that he's somehow better balanced than Ike despite having a blatantly overtuned option in the form of Fair seems very suspect to me.

ehh

Would it sound better if I placed Ike in the same category as Falcon and Palutena instead?

Obviously not being ass backwards broken or incapable is more important than versatility, but I've been talking about this purely in terms of how many moves of a given character have a consistent purpose distinctive from their other moves. To me, this strongly relates to how interesting a character is.

90% of Ike's moveset usage consists of roughly half of his moves, while Mewtwo is closer to a character that relies on 90% of his moveset every match. They were both given similar buffs (mobility, hitboxes, lag reductions), and they were both considered low tiers prior to said buffs. I'm not saying Ike is a problem, I'm saying Mewtwo is a more interesting character in this context.

Buffs shouldn't simply make a character better, but also more interesting to use (outside of becoming more capable). A grab combo you spam for damage is the absolute antithesis of that. The buffs Mewtwo got worked for him in this regard because he already had utility in most of his moves, but for Ike to become more interesting he needed more work to more of his moves than what he got. In that regard he very much fits in the same category as Bowser and DK.

The views on what buffs or nerfs should do or what warrants a buff or a nerf are sometimes extremely narrow here. Modifications don't and shouldn't completely revolve around the capability to win major tournaments or perform otherwise. There's so much more to good design / good balance than that, and there can be so many problems that you can't see by just looking at results from the last 300+ player tournament.

A character can perform badly at majors and still have a tool 50% of the cast can do nothing about. Ganondorf will never be a top tier without a complete change of design or without becoming a stupidly extreme design. The fact that a character is good without posing any considerable problems doesn't mean their 2 useless moves shouldn't be given utility.

No, Ike doesn't need buffs or nerfs but his buffs could've been done better for the sake of his players.

No, Cloud isn't too good in terms of top level results but something could still be done to him to change the fact that 15% of all players you ever encounter use him.

No, Falcon doesn't need buffs but it would be nice if Falcon Punch and Kick weren't half useless in every game mode.

 

[Pyr]

Increasing the damage it takes for him to reach full limit would help out a lot more then a charge nerf to be honest. Warning: Theorycrafting ahead

Spoiler

If Limit charge were to be hit, it, honestly, should be hit in the damage taken to charge gained department. As it stands, it takes 400 frames (6.6~ seconds) to charge (hereby known as units), 100% damage to charge fully purely from getting hit, and 250% from doing damage.

Assuming the charge gain is linear for getting hit/hitting, to put that into perspective, dealing 1% damage provides 1.6 units of charge, and taking 1% provides 4 units of charge.

Right now, you get 40-60 units at the very beginning of the game if you sacrifice stage control. Let's just assume that the hypothetical Cloud we're using doesn't mind this cost so they can get limit that much earlier.

So, we're half-way through a stock after the beginning (both players). Cloud took 60% and the other guy took 55%. Cloud gets the 60+240 (damage done to him)+88 (damage he did) units of charge, or 388. Now he's literally 6 (startup frames before the charge) + 12 frames to full limit, and the other guy is a few hits to LCS death. This is entirely through normal combat and through a charge in the beginning.

Now, it's half-way through the stock and Cloud has limit. One of 3 things happens:

A) Cloud gets a kill with limit! You die off the top with animation! He now gets 3 seconds (180 units) + 1 second for the platform to drop (60 more) minimum. This is unavoidable and is insignificant in regards to charge time, since that's more then half of the bar. That would remain so.

B) Cloud gets a kill with limit! He gets 60ish units from charge while waiting for a respawn, and then we repeat. See under C.

C) He misses! Or recovers with it!


Now, for B and C, we repeat. Cloud hits 120% and the other guy hits 110%. Without any other charge, he gains 328 units, or only needs 72 more frames to charge. He's going to get a second limit in the stock. Giving him the best case of the worst case, he uses it right when he gets it and he missed the first one: He easily gets more then a FULL limit charge from taking damage, per stock. Aaand we repeat it all the next stock.


Why does this matter? In order to charge, he either has to give up some small part of stage control, pressure, momentum, or something else. Now, many people would say, "Well, if it takes longer to charge, he will lose it more often!" I disagree. If the damage to charge ratio isn't hit, he's still getting ~480 units a stock purely from it. If we raise the necessary limit charge time 1 more second, to 560 frames, he'll still likely get 2 just from being Cloud and having the damage to charge ratio.

I choose 1 second because I can see Nintendo doing that.

Now, say we moved that 1% = 4 units to 1% = 2 units (still reasonable in my opinion), then he now has to charge for 120 frames (2 seconds), take an additional 60%, or deal an additional 75% damage. Any combo of the 3.
That's per limit. If he never charges, it now takes 200% damage taken, 250% damage given, or a combo of the 2, to reach limit in a stock.

Now, with the above, he must choose: likely 1 limit in this stock -or- lose more partial control to get more limit in a reasonable time frame.



So ya, in regards to the nerf talk and Cloud Limit, lowering what he gets for taking damage will go a much longer way to hurting him then a straight up charge nerf, and would likely even out his limit generation and give it... Well, a real cost.

 

[blackghost]

as a bayo player why is cloud more "respected"? cloud players arent treated with the same open animosity and are openly mocked both online and at actual tournament play that ive seen. cloud is literally everything that people claimed bayo was:
1. extremely easy to use
2. every pro player has a pocket and every competive player practically in mid level
3. become the desprate character choice when seeking a win (already zero has done it)
4. dominates talk online forums and is seen as a character that will evetually consume a large portion of the meta

 

[Pyr]

as a bayo player why is cloud more "respected"? cloud players arent treated with the same open animosity and are openly mocked both online and at actual tournament play that ive seen. cloud is literally everything that people claimed bayo was:
1. extremely easy to use
2. every pro player has a pocket and every competive player practically in mid level
3. become the desprate character choice when seeking a win (already zero has done it)
4. dominates talk online forums and is seen as a character that will evetually consume a large portion of the meta

You're missing a lot, I think:

Side-B was insanely safe. Lower-level players couldn't punish it, for the most part.
Up-B was a frame 4 that went into an easy 0-death.
She had 0-death combos since release, and they were only refined from then on.
Witch Time we have now is a nerfed version of her release. It felt ridiculous. More so then LCS.
Her recovery is amazing, making gimping her hard. Also the massive hitboxes made challenging it difficult for people in general.
Down-Air killed ridiculously early on the ground for what it was.
Bullet arts, or whatever you would call the extra damage you get off of holding A, could initiate hitstun and was frustrating for players who weren't aware/didn't understand it.
Combos for days, even if they didn't kill.

She had a metric ton more at all levels of play then Cloud does. It obviously would generate more frustration in general, and a lot of the above was available right at the release. People had to work with Cloud to get him to where he is right now.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Where do you guys feel Mario ranks at this point? I'd put him in top 8 at least for the following reasons:

1. His results are amazing and it's not just by one person. Ally and Anti both have gotten top results with him consistently and he also does extremely well in Japan. This suggests it's just as much the character as the players. Top players play to win. If Mario wasn't a contender they wouldn't be using him and placing well so consistently.

2. His matchup spread versus top tier characters is also great. He does well versus Diddy and Sheik who are probably the most common top tier threats in the current meta. We know he can beat Cloud as well even if it's a bit harder. His only real bad matchup it seems is with Rosalina who isn't nearly as common.

3. Other top tier characters have been nerfed through multiple patches. Diddy, Sheik, Rosalina and ZSS in particular. But Mario has remained untouched making these matchups easier for him to deal with.

I'd also like to point out that Mario mains tend to underrate him possibly because they don't want him nerfed. This is true of most players who play top tier characters, even the best players.

 

[Djmarcus44]

While I was reading what M2K said in the document I found myself thinking "Thank god I main Sheik" over and over again. The strategy he outlined is possible for less than a handful of characters. You're boned if you don't play Sheik, Pika, MK or w/e because edgeguarding him is so absurdly implausible.

Mii Gunner can edgeguard Cloud easily with flame pillar. It's hitbox lasts for over 40 frames and it can cover the ledge when spaced properly. It can cover every ledge option when combined with up smash. Charge blast and fsmash can also cover every ledge option when timed properly. While it is pretty difficult to edgeguard Cloud offstage with aerials, it is very easy and plausible to edgeguard Cloud onstage with moves that have enough range to avoid the hitbox of his up b.

 

[conTAgi0n]

People are dropping their mains to play better characters, instead of mid-low tiers? I mean, if they think they can do better but their tool is holding them back, it makes sense that you would choose a better tool. Basic tenet of playing to win. Players who evolve into a better mindset and become proficient at the game are going to crave more than mid tiers can give them.

The top 4 tends to be filled with good characters because they are good characters being used by good players. Of course this is the case. If we found that some random mid tier was cropping up in relevant results in top 8s or 4s or winning stuff, they probably aren't mid tier.

It's a fair point that players aiming for the top will pick a character they think they can get there with.

However take a look at something Raziek said in his post explaining his switch from Robin to Cloud (http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sopop6):

I really enjoy the character [Corrin], and if Cloud didn't exist, I'd probably be dual maining Robin/Corrin.

The rest of Raziek's post is exactly what you'd expect from a low-mid tier hero switching to a top tier: he's disappointed with his recent results, and realizing that he could be much more successful by switching full time to his top tier pocket. But the fact that he wouldn't consider dropping his main for any other high/top tier character suggests Cloud is in some respect not just another top tier.

Of course Raziek is only speaking for himself, but it does seem as though Cloud attracts a lot more defectors from low, mid, and high tier mains than any other character in the current meta.

The questions to ask are why this is the case, and whether it's good, bad, or neutral for the meta.

The "why" is mostly agreed upon. He is a top 1-3 character and is much easier to pick up than any other top or high tier character.

Whether this is anything to be concerned about is much more controversial. One position is that no amount of pocket Clouds or switching of mains should be treated as cause for concern until Cloud starts looking more dominant in majors and super majors (this argument was made frequently for pre-patch Bayo). On the other hand Cloud's presence at that level is definitely increasing, and since his player base is growing while already being the largest, that trend will likely continue. And if Cloud does continue growing more popular across all levels, and we see more and more Cloud pockets turn into Cloud mains, then it will be hard to argue that there isn't a problem here.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

as a bayo player why is cloud more "respected"? cloud players arent treated with the same open animosity and are openly mocked both online and at actual tournament play that ive seen. cloud is literally everything that people claimed bayo was:
1. extremely easy to use
2. every pro player has a pocket and every competive player practically in mid level
3. become the desprate character choice when seeking a win (already zero has done it)
4. dominates talk online forums and is seen as a character that will evetually consume a large portion of the meta

Because Cloud is only a problem if you think about it.

Much like how Bayonetta isn't a problem if you think about it.


First impressions and all that.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

It's interesting how a lot of top tiers have bad or disadvantaged matchups in the lower echelon of the roster (mid to low tier).

goes even or loses to ,,

goes even or loses to ,,

goes even or loses to ,,

beats everyone in theory, but imo is near impossible to play consistently enough to actually beat the entire roster and probably loses a good amount of matchups in practice

As far as I know, doesn't have any of these. I've heard here and there that might go even with him, but we don't have the data for that, and I haven't been convinced by much theory either.

So if he's the easiest character to play, AND has almost no bad matchups outside of sheik, who probably only wins 55-45 and isn't super common. What reason is there NOT to play him, outside of character loyalty or personal enjoyment from playing someone else?

 

[TurboLink]

Honestly the only characters I can see getting buffs are Link, Charizard, Ganondorf, and maybe Roy
I can only dream of a Puff buff

Other than that the game is pretty much fine as it is, extremely balanced for how big the roster is

Why Link though?

 

[blackghost]

You're missing a lot, I think:

Side-B was insanely safe. Lower-level players couldn't punish it, for the most part.
Up-B was a frame 4 that went into an easy 0-death.
She had 0-death combos since release, and they were only refined from then on.
Witch Time we have now is a nerfed version of her release. It felt ridiculous. More so then LCS.
Her recovery is amazing, making gimping her hard. Also the massive hitboxes made challenging it difficult for people in general.
Down-Air killed ridiculously early on the ground for what it was.
Bullet arts, or whatever you would call the extra damage you get off of holding A, could initiate hitstun and was frustrating for players who weren't aware/didn't understand it.
Combos for days, even if they didn't kill.

She had a metric ton more at all levels of play then Cloud does. It obviously would generate more frustration in general, and a lot of the above was available right at the release. People had to work with Cloud to get him to where he is right now.

but once again as ive discussed with other players this is the only fighting game ive ever seen where players that arent high level are treated differently. when i was new at marvel i hated x factor or zero and couldnt deal with them very well. i was told point blank either learn to deal with it or drop the game from multiple people. we dont see that in this community instead we baby these low level players.
the fact is bayo heel slide wasnt safe and it wasnt disjointed. low level players shouldnt dictate and be listened to on a basis for bans. they dont know best as for community growth do we want this community to grow with players that arent real competitors or want protection from the big scary high tier? communities like skullgirls and most anome fighters are small but they are all commmited to get better and that attitude is spread.
as for what you listed
didnt we ask for a more combo character? like we asked for a good sword character?
we are getting what we asked for.
bayo didnt have the only strong dair in the game
her recovery was good but she wasnt the only one one in smash 4 coming back from almost anywhere and she depends on a double jump
bullet arts have no histun and do .5 percent.
esam has proven beyond a doubt in tournament and in a video that combo escape was very possible (RIP FOX) and he reliably did it agianst tyroy.

and the belief that one character was pushed hard for development and one wasnt is ridculous. neither of the characters are ryu. especially considering cloud was dominate in double like since a week after relase. and cloud won more tournments than she did in those first 3 months.
the fact is in this meta we have characters that are ridiculous that the community likes (ryu doing 30 percent in two moves is ridiculous) and characters the community hates (lucario and bayo). the characters this community hates arent looked at objectively and arent defended as cloud is or has been. when it could be argued he could be.
he objectively has a semi aura ability, more disjoints, ridiculoisly large moves that auto cancel, an amazingly safe kill move (that is prone to spotdodge but the rosk for one punish is skewed in his favor).

 

[Jamurai]

It's interesting how a lot of top tiers have bad or disadvantaged matchups in the lower echelon of the roster (mid to low tier).

goes even or loses to ,,

Please explain all of these Diddy MUs, I actually narrowed my eyes at my computer screen when reading this.

I'm not ready to hop on the "complain about Cloud" wagon quite yet. Beating pocket Marios/Luigis/whatever was a prerequisite for doing well when Cloud wasn't around, if I can't beat a pocket Cloud with my main character who doesn't have a -3 MU with him, then it's my fault. The Cloud CP won't be as strong when people get more used to exploiting his less obvious weaknesses (ie. they learn the MU properly).

 

[Goombo]

Since everyone in this thread now is trying to suggest reasonable Cloud nerfs, here comes my try:

Make it so he has to touch the ground to get full limit charge. This way you can't hit him offstage, give him limit and save him in the process, which is an incredible stupid game mechanic.

 

[C0rvus]

Since everyone in this thread now is trying to suggest reasonable Cloud nerfs, here comes my try:

Make it so he has to touch the ground to get full limit charge. This way you can't hit him offstage, give him limit and save him in the process, which is an incredible stupid game mechanic.

If anything I think that isn't a real problem. I think it's pretty clutch and pretty cool when it happens. It also makes him immediately use his charge, so I really don't see what the problem is here.

I think I agree with the idea that characters that are strong on the ground are good against Cloud because they contest him in likely his weakest area. Which I guess would explain why I think Bowser does surprisingly well against Cloud. It's also a case of both characters mess each other up pretty badly in general, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was near even. Bowser pretty much just does normal Bowser things and his reward and decent ledge game mostly bridges the gap against Cloud's very very strong juggling game. ...Mostly.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Please explain all of these Diddy MUs, I actually narrowed my eyes at my computer screen when reading this.

I'm not ready to hop on the "complain about Cloud" wagon quite yet. Beating pocket Marios/Luigis/whatever was a prerequisite for doing well when Cloud wasn't around, if I can't beat a pocket Cloud with my main character who doesn't have a -3 MU with him, then it's my fault. The Cloud CP won't be as strong when people get more used to exploiting his less obvious weaknesses (ie. they learn the MU properly).

Olimar's shortness makes some of Diddy's best approaches whiff very easily. Pikmin give diddy headaches and make it hard to space dtilts at mid range. Offstage, they both do a number to each other. Even though a lot of us diddy mains hate this matchup, it's almost even.

I believe Hyuga has a winning record against diddys but I'm not sure which ones, maybe JJ, but it could be Zinoto. When diddy is holding a banana he becomes a lot easier to zone out with projectiles, since you know what he's trying to approach you with. Bombs are godly as always and Tink's neutral is excellent at keeping Diddy out.

Pac is definitely the closest to even out of all of these, but he does still give us a hard time. Have you seen his trip animation? The timing after a JCIT is really weird and hard to adapt to. Something something hydrant, projectiles, and offstage is tricky.

 

[soniczx123]

goes even or loses to

Where did you get this info from? Fox wins the MU vs Greninja solidly.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja's not a mid tier nor does he beat Fox. However we cannot say he solidly loses (any more) as his tournament record against Fox is fine.

The MU is most likely even.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Re: Cloud.

As a player who constantly slips around in mid-level play (because I don't play the game very often), Cloud is the one and only character whom I find frustrating to fight. A very large part of this is how little risk a large chunk of Cloud's moveset (seems to) carries, from the perspective of someone who simply fails to capitalize. How well I do relies largely on how well I can do this from my opponent's mistakes (as well as whether or not I feel 'up to it' on a meta level, but that's besides the point), but against Cloud I simply seem to lack the reaction time.

With Cloud, a large number of his moves have large, meaty hitboxes, but not enough endlag to actually respond from a visual-automatic level. If I shield against fair, it pushes me back just enough that Cloud's landing lag ends before I can reach him. If LCS, one of his strongest moves whiffs, I cannot capitalize off of it because Cloud does not suffer the endlag one would expect from such a strong move. In my brain I equate power with endlag, and Cloud simply ignores this equation and just acts anyway in spite of it, often smacking me in the nose for forgetting.

The same can be said for his F-smash. Large, meaty, forward-leaning and disjointed hitboxes that can be spammed in a scenario such as ForGlory, with little capability for retaliation due to c-lag, combined with not-quite-enough endlag. Say I preform the stupid move of playing a slow character against Cloud and his Fsmash whiffs; often times he can react before I can reach him, and capitalize on my mistake of trying by following up Fsmash with another Fsmash. If I shield this repeatedly, I'm put under pressure that my shield will break, and try to retreat, giving Cloud opportunity to charge Limit. Or, if I try to approach above, he can simply retreat with Nair to give himself the space he needs.

Compounding this is Cloud's remarkable ability to tomahawk like a god when he has Limit, which preformed well simply sets his opponent up to fail. The moves I find punishable are his aerials, which I can shield-grab and try to push an offensive, but the moment Cloud sees me expecting this, he can fast-fall into a grab before I can react, and dthrow-LCS.

All of this might have obvious counter-measures, such as consistent power-shielding (hah), but against someone like or less experienced than me, it's discouraging and unfun. Add to this one of the cockiest taunts in the game in an online setting where players give you one match and leave before you can learn anything, and Cloud is singlehandedly the worst gatekeeper in the game. You are either top-level play, or you struggle and lose, and that perspective sticks.

And on a subconscious level, I refuse to simply 'play as him if he's so good' because I refuse to inflict my own feeling of remorse and seething loathe onto others. Yet in spite of this, the malicious part of myself sees every Cloud player as 'carried', in the same way as many saw Bayonetta a few months ago. The moment I see a Cloud on For Glory, my first instinct is a sigh, and my second is to turn off the game.


(Unrelated: Anyone else getting really bad memory leaks from the forum ads? Chrome just keeps climbing past 2 gigs of ram unless I force shockwave to crash.)

 

[Tizio Random]

I hate to do these things but, hey, everyone gave their opinions so...

I agree with Shady Shaymin opinion that Cloud is quite unbalanced in comparison to the rest of cast and a nerf wouldn't hurt but it's not mandatory as of now.
I think that there are two ways to nerf Cloud:

• Nerf his limit so he can receive it fewer per stock (like one time, maybe two times if it survives long enough, not two or three) giving his limit charge some good endlag (making it a rick to charge mindlessly and also offstage) or increase how much he receives for taking or dealing damage. This without touching his other attributes.
• Remove his autocancels on sh uair and full hop dair and reduce KB on LCS, removing effectively his best juggle tool, his best way to land and making his kill potential less ridicolous. This without changing his limit charge.

This will remove the part considered "braindead" about the character: the fact that it's way too easy to camp and get limit for too much reward or the fact that he can just spam aerials for days without much problem. And Sakurai said his aerials weren't that great...

 

[Illusion.]

Greninja's not a mid tier nor does he beat Fox. However we cannot say he solidly loses (any more) as his tournament record against Fox is fine.

The MU is most likely even.

You may or may not remember me as the guy who made a whole write-up as to why vs. is a 50:50 MU on the MU thread. Regardless, I used to think this MU was even, but as I've started to play more and more optimized Foxes, I don't think so anymore.

can abuse his autocancels to either safely bully our shield or juggle wirh uair chains due to his overall better frame data and we just have to take it because of our poor OoS game and disadvantaged state. Sure, we absolutely win offstage since we have one of the best edgeguarding tools in the game, but getting him off in the first place is difficult. is just overall faster and safer compared to .

It's only a -1/45:55 MU at worse though. Every MU chart I've seen for seems to reflect that as well, none of them have said it's worse than that.

 

[PK Gaming]

ehh

Would it sound better if I placed Ike in the same category as Falcon and Palutena instead?

Obviously not being *** backwards broken or incapable is more important than versatility, but I've been talking about this purely in terms of how many moves of a given character have a consistent purpose distinctive from their other moves. To me, this strongly relates to how interesting a character is.

90% of Ike's moveset usage consists of roughly half of his moves, while Mewtwo is closer to a character that relies on 90% of his moveset every match. They were both given similar buffs (mobility, hitboxes, lag reductions), and they were both considered low tiers prior to said buffs. I'm not saying Ike is a problem, I'm saying Mewtwo is a more interesting character in this context.

It's a huge stretch to say that Ike relies solely on half of his moves. His only aggressively mediocre moves are Counter (which isn't exclusive to him as a character seeing as how most counter moves in this game are are complete ass), Forward Smash, Down Air and Down Smash with Up Air being on the borderline. That's it. Everything else ranges from usable to great, with consistent use in competitive play.

Buffs shouldn't simply make a character better, but also more interesting to use (outside of becoming more capable). A grab combo you spam for damage is the absolute antithesis of that. The buffs Mewtwo got worked for him in this regard because he already had utility in most of his moves, but for Ike to become more interesting he needed more work to more of his moves than what he got. In that regard he very much fits in the same category as Bowser and DK.

The implication i'm getting here is that you think that Ike's buffs turned him into a grab spamming fiend, but that flat out isn't true in practice. Like, you're severely underestimating the depth of Ike's buffs; he didn't get band aid for his problems, but outright changes to many of his core moves (aerial and grounded normals) to outright make them functional. His buffs made him go from a mediocre and boring swordsman to a rewarding one with a unique style that sets him apart from the rest of his kin. I also think you're giving way too much credence to Mewtwo buffs, which were pretty hit and miss. His weight is completely justified now that he actually fits the glass cannon mold well, but he also has overtuned options in the form of Fair, overkill run speed and the ability to autopilot with Nair and Shadow Ball in neutral. If anything, Mewtwo is a character that doesn't even need to use most of his moveset to succeed in a match.

The views on what buffs or nerfs should do or what warrants a buff or a nerf are sometimes extremely narrow here. Modifications don't and shouldn't completely revolve around the capability to win major tournaments or perform otherwise. There's so much more to good design / good balance than that, and there can be so many problems that you can't see by just looking at results from the last 300+ player tournament.

A character can perform badly at majors and still have a tool 50% of the cast can do nothing about. Ganondorf will never be a top tier without a complete change of design or without becoming a stupidly extreme design. The fact that a character is good without posing any considerable problems doesn't mean their 2 useless moves shouldn't be given utility.

No, Ike doesn't need buffs or nerfs but his buffs could've been done better for the sake of his players.

No, Cloud isn't too good in terms of top level results but something could still be done to him to change the fact that 15% of all players you ever encounter use him.

No, Falcon doesn't need buffs but it would be nice if Falcon Punch and Kick weren't half useless in every game mode.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I think you're completely off base in regards to Ike. There's a bit of a double standard here and a fundamental misunderstanding in how he was buffed . Ask literally any Ike main and they'll tell you that the character is more fun, interesting and rewarding to play than ever.

 

[verbatim]

Please explain all of these Diddy MUs, I actually narrowed my eyes at my computer screen when reading this.

Pacman has a weird trip that requires different timing for diddy to grab him, his edge guarding game is really effective at hitting him out of his barrels, hydrant water messes up throw follow-ups, and his general campiness works well at not getting hit by banana in neutral.

50-50, maybe slight advantage for one of them, but it's definitely one of the those weird matchups where a mid tier does surprisingly well against a top tier, a la megaman sonic or Marth mario.

 

[BunbUn129]

I'm seeing a lot more talk about Cloud and his issues and nerf suggestions, but in comparison I see few posts that delve into his possibly losing match-ups, counter-play, etc. Maybe I missed something.

We don't even know if we're getting more patches, so I think it would be better for everyone if we discussed Cloud as though he is staying with us for good.

I say this because I personally want to learn more about his relevant match-ups in depth. I know Cloud's tools themselves are damn good, but until now I still don't have a clear picture of how those tools interact with other notable common (and possibly uncommon) characters.

 

[Dabuz]

Why not just create Smash 4- and buff everyone to oblivion?

Pals

 

[Ninety]

Greninja's not a mid tier nor does he beat Fox. However we cannot say he solidly loses (any more) as his tournament record against Fox is fine.

The MU is most likely even.

Under what criteria is he not a mid tier?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

It's hilarious that everyone is dropping mid tiers to pick up cloud, yet Nicko drops cloud and sticks with shulk, a perceived bottom 15 character. Now he's looking for a character with much better edgeguard potential.

Why is this game so weird

 

[TDK]

Where do you guys feel Mario ranks at this point? I'd put him in top 8 at least for the following reasons:

1. His results are amazing and it's not just by one person. Ally and Anti both have gotten top results with him consistently and he also does extremely well in Japan. This suggests it's just as much the character as the players. Top players play to win. If Mario wasn't a contender they wouldn't be using him and placing well so consistently.

2. His matchup spread versus top tier characters is also great. He does well versus Diddy and Sheik who are probably the most common top tier threats in the current meta. We know he can beat Cloud as well even if it's a bit harder. His only real bad matchup it seems is with Rosalina who isn't nearly as common.

3. Other top tier characters have been nerfed through multiple patches. Diddy, Sheik, Rosalina and ZSS in particular. But Mario has remained untouched making these matchups easier for him to deal with.

I'd also like to point out that Mario mains tend to underrate him possibly because they don't want him nerfed. This is true of most players who play top tier characters, even the best players.

Mario's been top 8 for a while, and a contender for top 5. That being said, I do agree with this post, except for the part where you say Sheik is more common than Cloud. Rosalina is for sure a problem for Mario, but she's really not that common.

Here's an MU spread I made for Mario (Only vs the other top 10)

Spoiler: Mario

Mario:
Mario beats:
Mario goes even with:
Mario loses to:

Is this accurate?

 

[Zelder]

I remember when 1.1.5 dropped, I remarked to myself (alone, in an empty room, as I often do when remarking to myself) - "Today is a good day. Not only is Sheik's stranglehold on the top of the meta loosened, I'll never have to read 3 pages of people suggesting possible Sheik nerfs in the CCI thread. Yes, God is good."

I was wrong. Dead wrong.

 

[Nobie]

It's a huge stretch to say that Ike relies solely on half of his moves. His only aggressively mediocre moves are Counter (which isn't exclusive to him as a character seeing as how most counter moves in this game are are complete ***), Forward Smash, Down Air and Down Smash with Up Air being on the borderline. That's it. Everything else ranges from usable to great, with consistent use in competitive play.



The implication i'm getting here is that you think that Ike's buffs turned him into a grab spamming fiend, but that flat out isn't true in practice. Like, you're severely underestimating the depth of Ike's buffs; he didn't get band aid for his problems, but outright changes to many of his core moves (aerial and grounded normals) to outright make them functional. His buffs made him go from a mediocre and boring swordsman to a rewarding one with a unique style that sets him apart from the rest of his kin. I also think you're giving way too much credence to Mewtwo buffs, which were pretty hit and miss. His weight is completely justified now that he actually fits the glass cannon mold well, but he also has overtuned options in the form of Fair, overkill run speed and the ability to autopilot with Nair and Shadow Ball in neutral. If anything, Mewtwo is a character that doesn't even need to use most of his moveset to succeed in a match.



I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I think you're completely off base in regards to Ike. There's a bit of a double standard here and a fundamental misunderstanding in how he was buffed . Ask literally any Ike main and they'll tell you that the character is more fun, interesting and rewarding to play than ever.

Mewtwo's nair is anything but autopilot, c'Mon.

It is frame 7, so slow for a nair, has small hitboxes that lose to just about any attack, and require precise fastball timing to combo into reliably. If someone is throwing out nairs willy nilly, then they're bad. If they're winning like that, it means their opponent is worse.

It's like people see a move and just guess how it works instead of looking at the data.

 

[Das Koopa]

Mario vs. Diddy is something I've been wanting to address. It looks even-to-Mario's favor based on Ally vs. ZeRo where Mario seems to overall have an easier time killing than Diddy does at high %s because of how safe upsmash is.

 

[bc1910]

Under what criteria is he not a mid tier?

Excellent theory, fair results, currently sitting at ~20th in Koopa's rankings after a recent slump. Assuming you expand high tier past the top 12 or so (to include the next 10-12 characters who are about as strong), he's a shoe-in.

I'm not getting sucked into this though. If you disagree, fine.

Illusion. I think both characters have room for optimisation which makes it hard to call this MU at this point. I think Greninja's buffs, particularly the grab buff, have helped quite a bit.

Fox feels a lot easier than Sonic and Sheik, and easier than Cloud a lot of the time. Not sure about Diddy now.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I would say Mario slightly loses to Cloud and some other swords to a lesser extent. Data suggests that Mewtwo does well against him too.