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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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HoSmash4

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People that miss Hoo Hah kills and... do people miss the 50/50 that dominated the meta for months? I can't imagine that, but I think those are the same people complaining the tools are nerfed. Heres the deal, there are unique and powerful tools all over the roster, people just miss something stupid and abusive like a ladder from a dash attack at 18% didn't want to play a balanced game and just wanted to ram centralizing tools down your throat in some sort of caricature of smash 4. Our meta is looking extremely promising now, and the characters are definitely sufficiently unique. We are arguing over who might be the best! I've been waiting for that moment in smash for years.
Revelation; people enjoyed using full screen needles, dthrow 50/50; uair upb + nair downb, dash attack to ladder, wt2 to uair. Why? Because it was easy to do. With kill setups mostly gone (except for diddy and some mid tiers eg dk bowser), most kills have to be earnt.
 
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Joined
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Our meta is looking extremely promising now, and the characters are definitely sufficiently unique.
The only problem I have with this statement is how over centralized the meta could become. I'm going to ignore Brawl on account of MK, but look at Melee. I dislike it as Fox outclasses all characters on the roster. I am truly afraid of Sheik becoming the new Fox. I am aware however that meta's will always be centralized but Sheik (in my opinion) is not a healthy center. We have great characters who I rarely see any gameplay as (i.e. Pac-man, R.O.B, and DDD). I had high hopes for this game after coming from Brawl where we had Snake as a high level character who was also a heavy and did quite well.
 

Shady Shaymin

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The only problem I have with this statement is how over centralized the meta could become. I'm going to ignore Brawl on account of MK, but look at Melee. I dislike it as Fox outclasses all characters on the roster. I am truly afraid of Sheik becoming the new Fox. I am aware however that meta's will always be centralized but Sheik (in my opinion) is not a healthy center. We have great characters who I rarely see any gameplay as (i.e. Pac-man, R.O.B, and DDD). I had high hopes for this game after coming from Brawl where we had Snake as a high level character who was also a heavy and did quite well.
How is Sheik anywhere near as centralizing as melee Fox? Sheik isn't decisively the best character right now (no one is), and even then, Sheik's tools aren't oppressive to the point where they define the meta, not since 1.1.5.

You had high hopes for this game after playing the most poorly balanced smash game of all time? If you want heavy high tiers, we have Ryu, Cloud, and on the lower end of the spectrum, DK, Ike, MM, Falcon...

EDIT: And for what it's worth, DDD is a terrible character, Pac is pretty bad right now, and ROB is the only decent character on that list, who happens to be doing fine despite sheik's presence.
 
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C0rvus

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King James beat Trela? Huh. Dedede is pretty garbo but I can see the Ryu MU being doable, even decent for him. He's the hardest character in the game to kill off the top, he has some moves that outrange Ryu's, Ryu may have some difficulty dealing with proper Gordo placement because he lacks disjoint. Still, that's a big win for the penguin. Also glad to hear James is back on the Kingly grind. His switch to Bayo for singles was a bit heart-breaking, but understandable.

Edit: Actually, it was a player named Whiteout. Not sure why I assumed King James; I think someone said former Bayo, and I jumped the shark.
 
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aεrgiα

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this game has quite a few viable heavies tbh, id consider ryu,(if cloud is considered a heavy, insert here) lucario, megaman, ike, dk, wario, falcon, yoshi and rob viable, with samus, bowser and link being borderline:/ out of all the heavies that leaves only b.jr. dedede and ganondorf as unviable in my books, and even they are getting results. of course this depends heavily on your definition of viable, but if we compare this to previous iterations of smash its looking really rosy for heavies.
also sheik is by no means overcentralizing and neither does she outclass the rest of the roster, in fact its debatable whether shes even the best character at this point with diddy, rosa and cloud all having some degree of claim to being the best. definitely a long shot from melee fox, where even an infinite into death off of a grab doesnt make a character better than him ;)
 
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BunbUn129

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The only problem I have with this statement is how over centralized the meta could become. I'm going to ignore Brawl on account of MK, but look at Melee. I dislike it as Fox outclasses all characters on the roster. I am truly afraid of Sheik becoming the new Fox. I am aware however that meta's will always be centralized but Sheik (in my opinion) is not a healthy center. We have great characters who I rarely see any gameplay as (i.e. Pac-man, R.O.B, and DDD). I had high hopes for this game after coming from Brawl where we had Snake as a high level character who was also a heavy and did quite well.
Are we talking about the same game? Another poster already told you to basically ignore the tier list on the front page of the thread. That tier list was made based on the meta of version 1.1.3 -- 3 patches ago. The game has been turned upside down since then. Sheik is not a threat to the meta and neither an overtuned character, just a character who has a finely-tuned tool set.

On the topic of heavyweights, the archetype of heavyweights encompasses characters who generally are large, slow (in terms of mobility and especially frame data), have bad recoveries and landing options, with their long range, survivability, and power theoretically offsetting these drawbacks. But the fundamental design of such characters prevents most of them from achieving a truly relevant status in the metagame of all Smash games, because having bad mobility is a serious issue in a fighting game whose platformer design favors good mobility, and furthermore, the fact that heavyweights can potentially live to higher percents is counter-balanced by them being more prone to combos and juggles, meaning they take damage at a higher rate than smaller, lighter characters, and their below-average recoveries partially undermine their good endurance.

There are good heavyweights in all Smash games, though: Falcon in 64 and Melee, Snake in Brawl, Ryu and Cloud in Smash 4. However, one thing to note is that these characters break at least one rule of the heavyweight archetype: Falcon and Cloud have great mobility, and all of the aforementioned characters have frame data that ranges from excellent to good. Furthermore, Snake is the only of of those who is truly heavy, with the others being borderline in terms of weight. It goes to say that heavies simply can't be fully relevant meta threats in a game like Smash without breaking some rules of their archetype.

I find it odd that you imply you were disappointed in this game due to its balance when Smash 4's best draw over Brawl is in the realm of character balance.
 
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Ninety

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this game has quite a few viable heavies tbh, id consider ryu,(if cloud is considered a heavy, insert here) lucario, megaman, ike, dk, wario, falcon, yoshi and rob viable, with samus, bowser and link being borderline:/ out of all the heavies that leaves only b.jr. dedede and ganondorf as unviable in my books, and even they are getting results. of course this depends heavily on your definition of viable, but if we compare this to previous iterations of smash its looking really rosy for heavies.
also sheik is by no means overcentralizing and neither does she outclass the rest of the roster, in fact its debatable whether shes even the best character at this point with diddy, rosa and cloud all having some degree of claim to being the best. definitely a long shot from melee fox, where even an infinite into death off of a grab doesnt make a character better than him ;)
See what I meant about Charizard?
 

PK Gaming

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Is m night shyamalan running the balance patches now? (M ....marth?... it all makes sense)
It's not that big of a stretch. Marth's been doing well in tournaments lately and his last buffs made him into a legitimately good character.

I don't agree with Marth being the best FE character, but that could easily change. Marth isn't a character you can "ignore" anymore.
 
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Hero_2_All

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It's not that big of a stretch. Marth's been doing well in tournaments lately and his last buffs made him into a legitimately good character.

I don't agree with Marth being the best FE character, but that could easily change. Marth isn't a character you can "ignore" anymore.
oh no its not too much a stretch, definitely now when i think who is better ike or marth? I personally can't tell. A month or so ago would have been a resounding Ike.
 
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I've never been good at expressing my opinions so sorry about that.

My views are off how I see them. I do not have the DLC characters (been trying to save up for a computer for a good while) so I am unable to put my two cents in. But as far as I can see (from gameplay mind you) Cloud has good mobility, Ryu is has smaller hitboxes and good mobility. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Overall I am overjoyed that Nintendo has continued to support Sm4sh and I will continue to support this game. Sorry for the confusion.

Edit: Has there been any tries at creating a new tier list?
 
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Baby_Sneak

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People that miss Hoo Hah kills and... do people miss the 50/50 that dominated the meta for months? I can't imagine that, but I think those are the same people complaining the tools are nerfed. Heres the deal, there are unique and powerful tools all over the roster, people just miss something stupid and abusive like a ladder from a dash attack at 18% didn't want to play a balanced game and just wanted to ram centralizing tools down your throat in some sort of caricature of smash 4. Our meta is looking extremely promising now, and the characters are definitely sufficiently unique. We are arguing over who might be the best! I've been waiting for that moment in smash for years.
I think they just want deep characters with a lot of options. Only A handful of characters are like that right now. But, as long as the game devs don't nerf the already very developed characters and buff those that need it to be actually strong and fun and then leave the game alone to develop on its own, I think the game will be fine on that area.
 
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Nidtendofreak

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Plot twist: Marth is actually a better character than Corrin.

:059:
Considering Corrin is grossly overrated, having the Peach/Greninja syndrome of "but potential!" but even worse than those two, that's not surprising at all.

For a character that's supposedly high tier, they sure have the high level turn out of a low level mid tier. Only showing up as a desperation counter pick at majors, has almost nobody solo maining them. And then ones that do well... Cosmos won a large tournament but I didn't recognize a single other name in the top 8. I have no doubt Ryuga is good but his results have vanished since he switched off of Ike. Corrin gets a lot of "results" points with being used one time as a secondary so he looks like he's doing work. Realistically he's doing next to nothing. Marth undoubtably is actually getting used more and getting more real results.

He relies heavily on one tool (Side B), and it would appear it has been largely adapted to. His other tools don't make up for his bad mobility.

Its time to stop thinking Corrin is high tier (Or for crying out loud, top 15 or even top 10. I've seen that claim before!) and accept he's stuck in the pile of "counterpick only" characters. He just happens to be a good counterpick choice against several high tiers which makes him one of the better counter pick options.
 

Strong-Arm

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In all honesty when it comes to Fire Emblem characters I rank them as
1. Marth
2. Lucina
3. Ike
4. Corrin
5. Robin
6. Roy
 

Emblem Lord

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How is Lucina better then Ike?

I mean I am curious. Because unless you know some of the tech I know which I'm not going to reveal, then there is no way you can think that.

Ike has grab confirms and confirms off dtilt a safe poke. That's...amazing. Plain and simple.
 

TheGoodGuava

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In all honesty when it comes to Fire Emblem characters I rank them as
1. Marth
2. Lucina
3. Ike
4. Corrin
5. Robin
6. Roy
Lucina is definitely below Ike

Ike has a MUCH better combo game, spacing ability is better, arguably better recovery, and his results are solid.
Theres also Corrin, who in theory is also better than Lucina in every way but mobility. Even then DL is amazing burst mobility.

Lucina being next to Marth on the tierlist is a meme at this point, its possible that shes entire tiers behind him and considering how close Ike is to Marth...
 
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PK Gaming

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In all honesty when it comes to Fire Emblem characters I rank them as
1. Marth
2. Lucina
3. Ike
4. Corrin
5. Robin
6. Roy
I'm not convinced that Lucina is on Marth's level. I feel like the gap between them has actually widened since launch, though she's definitely not a "bad" character anymore. I don't think Ike is better than Corrin either. He's solid, but his matchup spread against the high tiers isn't as good.

I'd probably go with Marth >= Corrin > Ike > Robin > Lucina > Roy
 

HeavyLobster

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Lucina is definitely below Ike

Ike has a MUCH better combo game, spacing ability is better, arguably better recovery, and his results are solid.
Theres also Corrin, who in theory is also better than Lucina in every way but mobility. Even then DL is amazing burst mobility.

Lucina being next to Marth on the tierlist is a meme at this point, its possible that shes entire tiers behind him and considering how close Ike is to Marth...
Also note that that particular part of the tier list is very closely packed together. Lucina is somewhere in mid tier but that's a pretty big group and doesn't say much for how close she is to Marth in terms of ranking.
 

LancerStaff

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Its time to stop thinking Corrin is high tier (Or for crying out loud, top 15 or even top 10. I've seen that claim before!)
That was ZeRo, lmao. Dude needs to learn how to keep his hype in check.

I'm glad at least some of you finally see that Corrin's not that good though.

Even then DL is amazing burst mobility.
...What?
 

Emblem Lord

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How is Corrin anywhere near Ike's level?

Ike been pulling results for like what? Half a year? Corrin hasn't done a thing.
 
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Pancracio17

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i feel like we need a list of characters that are mid-high-top tier in theory but dont actually have rep.
corrin, charizard, pits, etc are all on here

edit: yeah, so far ike is on another lv from corrin, even marth is higher results wise.
side b on BF dreamland or even platforms is pretty good as mobility.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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He just happens to be a good counterpick choice against several high tiers which makes him one of the better counter pick options.
Who are those "several high tiers" that people claim Corrin is good against? I would imagine she's about even with Cloud, Mewtwo and Rosalina - which is already pretty good, mind you - but that's all that seams feasible to me.

:059:
 

Charoite

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Its time to stop thinking Corrin is high tier (Or for crying out loud, top 15 or even top 10. I've seen that claim before!) and accept he's stuck in the pile of "counterpick only" characters. He just happens to be a good counterpick choice against several high tiers which makes him one of the better counter pick options.
But there are only a handful of characters that are used as secondary and these are pretty good characters::4cloud::4mario::4diddy::4sheik:,so it begs the question if :4corrinf: have good matchups against high tier characters to be used as an counterpick and doesn't loose hard to any character then how can she be any lower that high tier, i dont see mid tiers used as counterpick secondaries, there should be something good that the character does if she is used as a effective secondary.
 

PK Gaming

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How is Corrin anywhere near Ike's level?

Ike been puling results for like what? Half a year? Corrin hasn't done a thing.
Corrin doesn't lot of wins under her belt, but she's placed well in stacked tournaments. Earth got 4th at Sumaboto 8 going all Corrin, Ryuga's 2nd placing at Landlocked is still a thing, and ESAM busting out Corrin at Pound shows her value as a counterpick character.

Her recent weighted results are greater than Ike's as well.

And half a year? Bruh, Corrin hasn't even existed for a half a year, haha.
 
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Emblem Lord

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So compare Corrin to Bayo then. They dropped at the same time. Why was Bayo a threat week one and Corrin wasn't. The answer is obvious.

Corrin is not great dudes. The character is solid. That's it.

Dragon Lunge is like...THE neutral game tool when you think of something being overtuned, but the char is not super scary.
 
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LancerStaff

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i feel like we need a list of characters that are mid-high-top tier in theory but dont actually have rep.
corrin, charizard, pits, etc are all on here

edit: yeah, so far ike is on another lv from corrin, even marth is higher results wise.

side b on BF dreamland or even platforms is pretty good as mobility.
Pit has rep in Japan though. Corrin and Zard I don't think have any really notable solo players...

Unless Corrin can slide off the edge of a platform to cancel the endlag (I don't think so?) that doesn't really sound like a good idea.
 

PK Gaming

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So compare Corrin to Bayo then. They dropped at the same time. Why was Bayo a threat week one and Corrin wasn't. The answer is obvious.

Corrin is not great dudes. The character is solid. That's it.
No need to spoon feed it to me, I get it.

I'm not trying to argue that she's super great or anything, but she seems solid and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that she's better than Ike.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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How is Sheik anywhere near as centralizing as melee Fox? Sheik isn't decisively the best character right now (no one is), and even then, Sheik's tools aren't oppressive to the point where they define the meta, not since 1.1.5.

You had high hopes for this game after playing the most poorly balanced smash game of all time? If you want heavy high tiers, we have Ryu, Cloud, and on the lower end of the spectrum, DK, Ike, MM, Falcon...

EDIT: And for what it's worth, DDD is a terrible character, Pac is pretty bad right now, and ROB is the only decent character on that list, who happens to be doing fine despite sheik's presence.
Every other player you play in bracket doesn't main or secondary Sheik.

That is why.
 

Emblem Lord

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No need to spoon feed it to me, I get it.

I'm not trying to argue that she's super great or anything, but she seems solid and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that she's better than Ike.
Ok...but...how?!!

This man Ike is REAL!!!!
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Pit has rep in Japan though. Corrin and Zard I don't think have any really notable solo players...

Unless Corrin can slide off the edge of a platform to cancel the endlag (I don't think so?) that doesn't really sound like a good idea.
Draquaza would be the main one right now for Zard.

In japan there is one or two that do ok with him.
 
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Hero_2_All

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Considering Corrin is grossly overrated, having the Peach/Greninja syndrome of "but potential!" but even worse than those two, that's not surprising at all.

For a character that's supposedly high tier, they sure have the high level turn out of a low level mid tier. Only showing up as a desperation counter pick at majors, has almost nobody solo maining them. And then ones that do well... Cosmos won a large tournament but I didn't recognize a single other name in the top 8. I have no doubt Ryuga is good but his results have vanished since he switched off of Ike. Corrin gets a lot of "results" points with being used one time as a secondary so he looks like he's doing work. Realistically he's doing next to nothing. Marth undoubtably is actually getting used more and getting more real results.

He relies heavily on one tool (Side B), and it would appear it has been largely adapted to. His other tools don't make up for his bad mobility.

Its time to stop thinking Corrin is high tier (Or for crying out loud, top 15 or even top 10. I've seen that claim before!) and accept he's stuck in the pile of "counterpick only" characters. He just happens to be a good counterpick choice against several high tiers which makes him one of the better counter pick options.
This is an understandable statement, but it has a large flaw in its logic. Corrin unlike Greninja or Peach has a really undeveloped meta and player base. Comparing a character that just came out the beginning of this year, to characters that came out at the beginning of the game is a little unfair. The fact that she has the regional results she does while also having a budding player base, and meta speaks volumes ( while face much more complete character meta's). Also she is placed around falcon in high tier on most lists because they both perform at regional lvl amazingly, but also have too few major lvl results. Falcon we know because high lvl counter play, Corrin because we are not sure of her yet under current results. Regardless she should not be placed outside the "gate keeper" falcon tier up or down (from there she could go up or down with time).

Also your right, there are no top tier solo mains, nor should their be at this time. A player base takes time, and new players on the character will be the ones to play her as a solo main in the future. Not top players with already established top tier mains with THOUSANDS of hours of experience on said mains. Now you could then cite cloud and pre-patch bayo as clear top results as new DLC out of the gate. Yet, those characters were that good; so good that established players would get better results than their current top tier mains with bayo / cloud for minimal effort (starting the whole pay to win meme craze). Yet, with bayo and cloud unlike Corrin we were getting unknown smash 4 players as solo mains coming out and doing well at large tournaments. Though when that happened the community immediately complained that the characters were carrying players. Bayo and Cloud are the exceptions to meta development, not the norm.

Now with the way your talking about Corrin it seems you would not be satisfied unless A) a top lvl player drops their current main to solo Corrin and does well with it, or B) a solo main Corrin comes out from regional lvl and does amazingly at an international lvl. A) is probably not gonna happen, because Corrin is not a top 5 super easy to pick up character, she is probably good, but not that good (though she is easy to pick up). B) this is the likely one to happen, at least for a good solo main Corrin. Yet, this process SHOULD take time. A player base themselves need time to mature, because if it doesn't ,and they win allot without the hours put in, then Corrin would be carrying the players. Honestly Corrin has the regional results for a high tier placement, for major lvl though we will have to wait and see. TL;DR a character's meta is not made in a handful of months.

Side note*** Corrin has much... much more than side-b, side-b is just one of her best punish tools, but is not something thrown out willy nilly. Also if anoyone reading this doesn't know much about Corrin and what she can do this is a good starter / info guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-IM_SQQL_Q
 

AxelVDP

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Lucina is definitely below Ike
Lucina being next to Marth on the tierlist is a meme at this point, its possible that shes entire tiers behind him and considering how close Ike is to Marth...
tbh I remember reading about Pugwest (one of the best Marth mains atm) admitting that he thinks Lucina MIGHT be better than Marth
and honestly, that does not sound all that outlandish after all the buffs that both characters recieved and the new shield mechanics (Lucina used to have way worse safety on shield compared to Marth, but now she is just 1 frame less safe compared to tippers and 1 frame MORE safe otherwise on basically every attack)
Marth sometimes struggles to get kills when the opponent is slippery and manages to avoid tippers (remember: spacing is a game played by both players), while Lucina can easily kill with just a roll read and fsmash (or nair1 > fsmash and the slightly unreliable jab1 > fsmash) (Lucina's fsmash is pretty crazy actually)
(yeah I know Marth has more kill options like tipper ftilt, tipper uair and tipper fair at the ledge, but the question is, how easy is it to get them?)

also, something to note is that even top Marth players very rarely get tippers >50% of the times, so technically Lucina has usually a better dammage output
this is kind of a faulty metric though, it can lead to believe that she has a better neutral than Marth, while it ignores an important thing: the tipper mechanic passively boosts Marth's neutral game thanks to it's threat factor
but it's a thing to consider nonetheless

so... yeah, underrating Lucina is more of a meme than what you mentioned tbf

personally, I still believe Marth to be the better character overall, but you cannot deny that even Lucina has her merits
 

Cereal Bawks

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Ike's only bad matchups are Diddy and Sheik, and even then there are some people claiming Sheik is only 45:55 after her nerfs. Ike wins against Sonic and goes even with Rosa. And honestly it's starting to seem like ZSS is near even.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Who are those "several high tiers" that people claim Corrin is good against? I would imagine she's about even with Cloud, Mewtwo and Rosalina - which is already pretty good, mind you - but that's all that seams feasible to me.

:059:
Ness is another one. Not a common high tier, but still a high tier currently. And being a good option against Cloud and Mewtwo is pretty major like you said. Don't know about Ryu, I ain't going to pretend I'm good at figuring out who does and doesn't work well against him, lol.

Ike's had on and off good results since at least MLG (where Ryo got top 8). The "on and off" factor is annoying/causes Ike to fall off of the radar at times, somebody already posted our johns for that issue. But considering Ike can still place top 8/just outside top 8 at majors like GOML and MLG despite those johns is pretty telling.

Currently its Ike > Marth > Corrin > (Lucina + Robin) > Roy. I'm not super confident in what Lucina can and can't do so I'm a bit fuzzy on her placement overall. Robin is most likely above her but there's some fudge factor there. Marth is really close to Ike at this point. He's making a lot of secondary appearances (more than Corrin), and his solo mains are starting to get there.

PK Gaming PK Gaming Ike's top tier spread outside of Diddy/Sheik (Maybe Fox as well, though that MU is more volatile to the extreme than anything. Both characters can kill each other within about 30 seconds of the match starting) is all within the 45-55 to 55-45 range, with Sonic being an arguable 6-4. Its not amazing to be sure, takes a lot of effort, but its something that's workable for placing well at majors. Hence MLG and GOML results. Those Diddy/Sheik issues hurt for sure, but being able to take on Cloud, ZSS, Sonic, Rosalina all fairly comfortably is fairly large as well.

I think what's more telling, is that despite that high tier MU range, Ike doesn't qualify for high tier with the current standards. If Ike doesn't make it, how on earth is Corrin supposed to qualify with a MU spread at that level really close to Ike's, but nowhere near the same level of important results?

Hero_2_All Hero_2_All Corrin's regional results are not at a high tier level. They fit perfectly into the mid tier range of "one or two regions have a good one they have to deal with". You also can't get tossed into high tier based on theory. You need results to back it up. Corrin doesn't have it, and he's not building any steam.

No results, no high tier. No "new character" johns.
 
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