Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TheBeggingBard ~~JoMo~~]

I really enjoy seeing some BowWow play. Who's that one Bowser main who does really well? It's like Loopa or something. Anyway he's the one who really got me into Bowser after searching for a main for around ~3 months.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

Maybe because aside from those horrible match-ups you mentioned he also loses to some other characters, just not as bad.

sonic, luigi, diddy, marth, GnW, mario, villager, MK, Cloud, and even the pits

He doesn't lose all those lol
Luigi isn't bad, marth he wins, gnw is even or slightly ness' favor, villager is even, and cloud is a small loss. Idk enough about the sonic mu to comment.

The ability to gimp him doesn't make it a losing mu. There is more than just disadvantage. And ness, even though his neutral isn't the best, is highly damaging and you ALWAYS have to respect his grab. His edge guarding is amazing and he's floaty enough to get out of most combos. You're severely under rating him.

Also both corrin and rosa are both -1 matchups. Neither are unwinnable and I'm beginning to err on corrin being worse than rosa.

 

[my_T]

He doesn't lose all those lol
Luigi isn't bad, marth he wins, gnw is even or slightly ness' favor, villager is even, and cloud is a small loss. Idk enough about the sonic mu to comment.

The ability to gimp him doesn't make it a losing mu. There is more than just disadvantage. And ness, even though his neutral isn't the best, is highly damaging and you ALWAYS have to respect his grab. His edge guarding is amazing and he's floaty enough to get out of most combos. You're severely under rating him.

Also both corrin and rosa are both -1 matchups. Neither are unwinnable and I'm beginning to err on corrin being worse than rosa.

Lmao I don't even know where to begin with this post. I'll just say you highly underrate the characters you mentioned.

Seriously though, Rosa being -1, GnW being in Ness favor, Ness wins against Marth, Villager being even. Are we even playing the same game?

 

[Eugene Wang]

Take prepatch Sheik. Now remove all her disjoints so that her neutral is merely above average rather than exceptional, put 10 extra frames of startup on bouncing fish, and make her needles slow. That's pikachu in a nutshell.

 

[ARGHETH]

Take prepatch Sheik. Now remove all her disjoints so that her neutral is merely above average rather than exceptional, put 10 extra frames of startup on bouncing fish, and make her needles slow. That's pikachu in a nutshell.

BF is F17. Skull Bash is F18, Quick Attack is F15.
You forgot about shrinking the hurtbox and making the fall speed similar to Marth's so they're not as easily combo'd.

 

[Rizen]

The reason Link does "well" vs Diddy (-1 for Link imo) is his bombs cancel out bananas. Link can throw bombs strait through them and C4 bombs to help stop combos.

 

[my_T]

M my_T Some of those are doubtful and not that relevant even if true. Sonic/Diddy/Mario/Cloud matter but at least two of those (Sonic and Mario) looked pretty even last I saw them.

Whether or not a match-up is relevant only really matters for a characters tournament viability. Even if some of the characters I mentioned aren't as popular or have low rep that doesn't have anything to do with the match-up.

Also, sonic and mario definitely ain't even lol. I've talked to Shaky personally about the mario match-up. They have all the tools necessary to beat ness in the match-up as do the other characters i mentioned

 

[Megamang]

But if you take away the top level player that is ESAM, pika drops off much more dramatically than those characters. His other high level reps aren't solo mains, and even ESAM is no longer a solo main.


He has the shiek problem Anti mentioned.. he can beat anyone, but can he beat everyone? Rage throws are a big threat to your bracket life if you can't get a gimp.

That said, fair-> usmash/fsmash aren't losing much consistency ,so he does have kill setups. And with shiek less prevalent than ever, his gimping is more and more important. Unfortunately, people also are learning to avoid gimps and stageteching more consistently.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ok before the Pikachu discussion spirals out of control like it always does and turns into some giant thing about how he cant kill and that it doesn't matter how many times he wins the neutral, I would like to remind everyone that Pikachu isn't the kind of character that straight up kills. He has the ability to edgeguard literally every character in the cast (yes even Sheik) and is almost impossible to edgeguard himself. People seem to forget about that. Yes Ness can be scary with rage backthrow but his recovery is among the worst in the game and to character like Pikachu losing your jump offstage is almost a free stock.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Mega Man is a funny character, especially because people have rated him all over the map. He's gone from perceived high tier to low tier to mid tier and is now moving back up the ranks... and keep in mind that he's barely been touched by patches, at least directly.

I've been saying this for a long time but I still believe that Megaman is this game's equivalent to Brawl's Diddy. Megaman's weird because he has a lot of tools that aren't typical for Smash Bros and his playstyle forces you to play him like you would an actual Megaman game. Brawl Diddy was a character that people saw as average at best until his players got his banana tricks down and then he quickly shot up and then planted his buttcheeks in top five and hasn't come down since. Megaman's experienced similar growth but I'd argue the tech skill of a high level Megaman player is every more impressive. Megaman's glide toss options are just as potent as Brawl Diddy's. His jab lock options are some of the best in the game. Bair alone gives him one of the game's best ledge trumps. The pellets, Air Shooter, Crash Bomb, Leaf Shield, Metal Blade, Sliding, and Rush Coil are all multifunctional. Megaman's yaoi hands paired with his throw options give him one of the most reliable grabs in the game. The character is definitely deep and more people are tapping into that because his more dedicated players like Scatt have put in the time to figure things out. Will he be as good as Brawl Diddy? Possibly but I feel that it will take him much longer because Brawl Diddy largely revolved around the mastery of one technique, glide tossing, while Megaman has much more projectiles and movement options. I personally think Megaman is a character that's going to continue to grow and, at the very least, will unquestionably be high tier by the time SSB5 rolls out.

 

[aεrgiα]

fwiw aszteca did pretty well at umebura 23 iirc, sadly only one of his matches was recorded so thats at least one person caring about zard

as for the pika discussion going on... i get that people are annoyed about pika being overrated for a very long time, but can we please not let that blind us completely? z got 9th at lvl up, captain l got 5th at battle of bc, and ridae(?) got 9th at gote 4 the kids, pikapika got top 16 at goml, and those are only big tournaments ive included there, granted those arent mind blowing results, but they are definitely enough to justify top 15 if the theory is good. and those results dont even include the characters best player, just as a reference, in all those tournaments, the best placing ness got was 9th, and that was the characters best player, yes i know "who did they play" matters etc etc(fow and z both lost to tyrant, and fow then lost to saiki, whilst z lost to scatt) but if you are gonna discredit a character at least look into it and dont spread misinformation just because you think a character is overrated!

 

[Shady Shaymin]

these boards have a notorious hate for pikachu because of esam's incessant appraisal and overrating of the little guy. i honestly think his range, frame data, and combo game are pretty average, and people really do overrate his combo potential. it is true that he has good low percent bnb's, but there's a reason why pika struggles with the mario bros, and nair is one of them. he doesn't actually have a lot of reliable combos, it's mostly strings and DI followups. very few things are true after 40%.

I still stand by Uthrow thunder being true in a world where a robot with perfect reaction time can rar follow the DI, but I doubt the upthrow kill confirm is reliable enough in top level play.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

But let's throw ESAM's words and thoughts aside and actually evaluate his play and see what actually goes on. Like, can we look at pika objectively and refrain from bias on either side of the spectrum?

Cuz I think he's good, just ESAM needs to be more patient. Essentially no pokes other than tjolt = shield more

 

[Megamang]

When I played a bunch of Pika, I felt like b-reversed tjolt was very underutilized. With this, you can basically travel with or even in front of your tjolt a-la 64 pika. Pika's grab game is also pretty good, after followup percents you have a pretty good pummel and stage control advantage is really great when you have QA.

And yes, ESAM has always been more aggro that he should... but at the same time, I felt like this was more optimal than people let on. With no true kill confirms, having a hectic game with traded blows benefitted pika more. You are more likely to get a gimp in a crazy slobberknockers, than if you try and outpoke say, Diddy. He'll just get the dtilt eventually and you'll lose unless you outplay him hard.


Still, I think Pika + Corrin is a really nice combo, and we'll hopefully see the summer of ESAM returning to top form.

 

[Illuminose]

I am completely confident that Sheik has at least a 60:40 matchup against Ness, but I think the matchup could actually be worse (65:35 or so territory). Sheik decimates Ness if you know how to play the matchup. The fact that any top Sheik player loses to a Ness player is a testament to Ness player skill and poor matchup play. FOW lost to Saiki post-patch and literally nearly lost to Wizzrobe's Sheik at PAX. Sheik can really just needle camp and stay out of Ness's range, completely walling out his options, and has hard edgegards on him. Ness can't deal with a safe Sheik that has competent edgeguards unless the Sheik player makes a lot of mistakes and/or the Ness outplays the Sheik significantly; it simply doesn't work. FOW cited the matchup to be in the same tier as Rosalina pre patch, and the matchup hasn't really changed...it was hard to 50/50 Ness in the first place because of his air dodge + relative risk of doing any option (he could up air out of an air dodge and kill if you read him wrong) and the other aspects of the matchup haven't changed much at all. The matchup is bad and should be treated that way.

I'm quite surprised that someone actually said Villager vs Ness is even. The matchup is like a nerfed version of the Rosa matchup -- Ness can actually contest Villager in neutral so maybe it's possibly around even on-stage, but he gets decimated just as bad off-stage as he does in the Rosa matchup. That alone makes the matchup too volatile for any semblance of consistency.

Ness also has a whole host of -1 losing matchups between Cloud, Sonic, MK (have seen it considered -2), Diddy, Luigi, Marth, Pits, Corrin, G&W...if you want to know why I don't think Ness is that great, here's your answer. He has many bad matchups with strong players representing him -- strong players that don't go to many events coincidentally, thus with few opportunities to reveal possible inconsistencies as Ness is a character that definitively contest top tier MUs like Fox, Mario, ZSS, and Mewtwo as well as some definitely winnable -1s against Sonic/Diddy/Cloud. The issue is that so many bad matchups means you have to either get a good matchup bracket (i.e. FOW at Genesis) or significantly outplay your opponents (i.e. Shaky beating Cacogen in a game 5 set at Genesis) to place really high. This is not to discredit top Ness players at all, but the fact of the matter is that a lot of cards have to fall into place for Ness to get good placements. He's pioneered by amazing players and thus probably more overrated by his results than anything else.

 

[Megamang]

Mobility is king. Ness's mobility is the kind that surprises you, he accels well, his airdodge is misleading and can kill you on a bad decision... but it isn't actually good. Like MK/Falcon his dash attack/dash grab mixup can just be circumvented, but he is slower and isn't really that scary until bthrow kill percents, especially if you can DI well and avoid taking 60% because you got grabbed.

People play sloppy, then try and play smart when he can bthrow kill them. But if you just play smart the whole game and minimize his chances, stay out of his burst range and in your own (which is probably better than his if you are playing a good character) he isn't hard to shut down. Yea, top Ness players do well and would decimate me, but that is more based on their higher skill level. And this probably is the best Ness build, so these guys have been playing a sub par character for a while and now have access to a pretty good one... but thats all he is, sitting near the top of the pretty good guys. I'd put Mega in the top 15 before Ness, and the DLC has not made his life easier at all.


Lucas is actually scarier in a lot of ways.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

As someone who has never played Rosalina OR Ness, my question is: what makes this matchup so infamously bad? What can the balance team do to make the matchup less completely one sided, if anything? Or is this matchup just a flaw of polarizing designs from both characters?

 

[Megamang]

The most surface and obvious answer is GP gimping ness.


Also, because GP has no cooldown and stops every projectile with minimal effort (me quite salty), Ness usually has to approach... his slow, powerful aerials kinda suck vs Luma if Rosa capitalizes on the hitstun. Rosa is similarly able to accelerate quickly like Ness, so she can juggle him better than most.


Its been talked about a lot and many Ness and Rosa players say it isn't that bad, but results indicate that it is, in almost every country.

---


I also think Megaman is a bad MU for Ness. Bthrow isn't that scary if you are really heavy, and able to play keepaway quite well. Ness doesn't have great burst mobility so pellets are quite difficult for him, while metal blade and leaf shield ignore PSIMagnet. Megaman is able to edgeguard him pretty well. Ness's saving grace is his smaller hitbox, but I really think its a pretty bad MU. Lucas, however, does great. Lucas actually covers Ness's bad MUs pretty decently, so they make a cool team.

 

[Strong-Arm]

I think one of the things about this game in particular is we try and rush the meta sometimes. I do think that there are multiple characters that overtime will rise largely because few ppl use said character or take advantage of the character. I think Link is slightly better than ppl say, but honestly not by a whole lot, of course I could be wrong on that.

But I do think characters like Megaman, Marth, Lucina, etc will rise to high mid or possible high tier overtime. Megaman imo is a solid high tier, give it time and Im fairly sure itll show.

This game is young, and patches kinda clean slate things over time. If this is indeed the final version of the game, then we have a huge roster of characters. I highly doubt theyve all been used and explored to their max potential yet. Time will largely tell.

 

[my_T]

Shady Shaymin To expand on what Megamang said

Ness doesn't have an effective or low risk way to get rid of Luma

 

[Aaron1997]

Jonny Westside just beat K9 > and it looks like he's going to be playing Nicko In WF www.twitch.tv/fadgames

Speaking of Shulk, Darkwolf is going off on the Montreal stream destroying Venom
The more I watch Darkwolf the more I think that he's the best Shulk right now. Nicko is really good but Darkwolf has been doing better lately.

 

[Amadeus9]

There's no reason to think Marth is bad atm other than the "marth fair is outranged by sheik's" meme which isn't even relevant any more. Character is sick af to be quite honest. Like if Corrin wasn't released he'd be my pick for the best FE fighter atm.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

As someone who has never played Rosalina OR Ness, my question is: what makes this matchup so infamously bad? What can the balance team do to make the matchup less completely one sided, if anything? Or is this matchup just a flaw of polarizing designs from both characters?

The most obvious answer (that the game itself suggests you do if you read the tips) is that Gravitational Pull can absorb PK Thunder and gimp Ness for free. His only hope in such a circumstance is that it tags him as it swirls around Rosalina before vanishing, which refreshes his up special and gives him another chance.

When both characters are offstage, it's not nearly as bad. PK Fire can easily lock Luma in place, but Rosalina can punish PK Fire if she sees it coming. Rosalina is light and dies early to bthrow, but Luma's disjoints make it hard to get a grab if she plays smart. And so forth. They both do really rude things to each other, it's just offstage where things go south.

 

[HeavyLobster]

There's no reason to think Marth is bad atm other than the "marth fair is outranged by sheik's" meme which isn't even relevant any more. Character is sick af to be quite honest. Like if Corrin wasn't released he'd be my pick for the best FE fighter atm.

I don't think it's unreasonable at all to think Marth is the best FE character. Corrin is good but hasn't really done anything that screams high tier. Them and Ike right now all seem to be hovering around high-mid territory, and I could see an argument for any of them.

 

[|RK|]

Jonny Westside just beat K9 >

JWest loses to Nicko, then plays K9 in losers. Loses the first two games, then almost reverse 3-0s him. Ultimately loses the last game. JWest has been putting in the work with Samus.

And then Nicko beats K9 and takes the tournament!

 

[Aaron1997]

Nicko just beat K9 >
THIS IS A GOOD RESULT

Also the moment that I say Darkwolf is the best Shulk he chokes vs Holy and Nicko beats K9 lol

 

[Amadeus9]

Nicko just beat K9 >
THIS IS A GOOD RESULT

Also the moment that I say Darkwolf is the best Shulk he chokes vs Holy and Nicko beats K9 lol

Nearly a 3-0 at that. Well, the result was 3-2, but it was almost a 3-0. Nicko played out of his mind.

 

[Das Koopa]

Momocon prediction before 70MPH winds destroy me in Texas

Spoiler

Assuming the Smash.gg projected top 32 is correct

Winners Quarters:
Nairo vs. 6WX > Nairo wins
Scatt vs. Mew2King > Mew2King wins
Ally vs. Fatality > Ally wins
LordMix vs. VoiD > VoiD wins

Losers round 3:
Seagull Joe vs. Gadiel > Joe wins (Gadiel: 13th)
Mr. E vs. Player-1 > Mr. E wins (Player-1: 13th)
TheReflexWonder vs. C3PO > TheReflexWonder wins (C3PO: 13th)
Rango vs. Vinnie > Vinnie wins (Rango: 13th)

Losers round 4:
LordMix vs. Seagull Joe > LordMix wins (Seagull Joe: 9th)
Fatality vs. Mr. E > Fatality wins (Mr. E: 9th)
Scatt vs. TheReflexWonder > Scatt wins (TheReflexWonder: 9th)
6WX vs. Vinnie > Vinnie wins (6WX: 9th)

Winners Semis:
Nairo vs. Mew2King > Nairo wins
Ally vs. VoiD > VoiD wins

Losers round 5:
LordMix vs. Fatality > Fatality wins (LordMix: 7th)
Scatt vs. Vinnie > Vinnie wins (Scatt: 7th)

Losers Quarters:
Mew2King vs. Fatality > Mew2King wins (Fatality: 5th)
Ally vs. Vinnie > Ally wins (Vinnie: 5th)

Losers Semi:
Ally vs. Mew2King > Ally wins (Mew2King: 4th)

Winners Final:
Nairo vs. VoiD > Nairo wins

Loser's Final:
Ally vs. VoiD > VoiD wins (Ally: 3rd)

Grand Final:
Nairo vs. VoiD > Nairo wins (VoiD: 2nd, Nairo: 1st)

 

[Djent]

Spoiler: Combo Breaker Info

1v1 Pools
Bracket map
Notables include ESAM, Zinoto, MVD, and tyroy. It should be a good weekend for and set analysis.

 

[Luco]

Ness loses to Sonic, both in theory where he struggles in mid-range / neutral in general and in results where S1 notably lost to Ixis at Albion.

But he doesn't lose to most of the characters presented because his damage per hit is silly high, and trades vs 80% of the cast work out in Ness' favour (Uair vs people that aren't Ryu or Ike trades well against most sex kick Nairs if it doesn't out-right beat them). The offstage argument is a difficult one because:

A) The opponent has to get them there in the first place

and

B) Nothing is guaranteed even should they be there

(Thanks Scoot)

With Ness it's a particularly difficult one to account for because he carries one of the best DJs in the game as well as an AD who's vulnerability frames are half inside the Z-axis. Good Ness players SHOULD be making it back without using PKT the vast majority of the time, they are specifically anti edge-guarding tools and are used as such.

If two players are playing a match-up who are evenly skilled, and Ness is winning the neutral about as much as G&W is, there's really no telling who's winning or not, because G&W might have gotten Ness off-stage and killed him, or Ness might have gotten a Dthrow Fair combo, a Uair chain and a Dsmash at the ledge to kill because G&W is volatile in a different way - weight. In this MU the character with higher percent is going to be forced to approach, and that comes down to whoever tagged their hits in early. In terms of neutral it's been a long time since I've versed a good G&W as Ness but @Kofu might be able to shed some light on how that looks.

Most of these MUs that are being touted as losing aren't actually roadblocks for top all the way down to high-mid level players. After the discussion we had some time ago where most of these MUs just don't have a lot of evidence to work with, it's kinda been clear to me that no concessions have been made and it kinda just looks like you two are circlejerking a particular bias. You literally touted Pikachu as being a top 15 character with the top 8 results ESAM has made and then turned around and discredited the exact same achievements made by FOW and Shaky (which are actually a heck of a lot better). If you want to talk results Ness consistently pulls in around Sonic's level of results on Das Koopa's rankings, which is significantly better than Pikachu OR Villager. If you want to talk MUs, Sheik isn't like versing Brawl Marth and she's infinitely better than Rosa.

Oh, speaking of Rosa, the reason Ness ACTUALLY loses that MU is because as Mr_T correctly mentioned, Ness struggles to kill Luma reliably and safely. He can't deal with Rosa onstage while that little brat is running around, and he can't deal with aforementioned brat without risking hard punishes. This situation leads to Ness being offstage more than he is in any other MU which makes the gimp more likely. Ness poops on Rosalina in the reverse situation and any time you see a Rosa recover to the ledge in that MU you should be thinking "The Ness missed out on a stock". Dsmash catches Rosa every time without exception should she recover to the ledge.


I'm ranting, but it bothers me because you keep telling me I don't acknowledge Ness' true weaknesses and the cite his offstage gimpability in every other MU. Ness is average in terms of safety in neutral / doesn't have real pokes, he doesn't like being juggled and he doesn't like being offstage. In return he gives that weakness to most characters he's versing (most characters actually can't deal with PKT juggles or tail gimping offstage) and has high damage per hit as well as several easy ways to close out stocks, a potent OoS option, ledge coverage option, punishes landings well and generally good frame data. He's not a particularly deep character, but he's pretty good.

But W/e if you want to rate Villager and Pika above him, go ahead, but as time goes on I assure you you're going to lose the justifications for keeping those two characters in top 15.

EDIT: Super grats to Nicko though. :D

 

[Aaron1997]

Spoiler: Combo Breaker Info

1v1 Pools
Bracket map
Notables include ESAM, Zinoto, MVD, and tyroy. It should be a good weekend for and set analysis.

AS a added note that its going to be run on 1.1.5 so Tyroy is going to be running at full power.

 

[Megamang]

****, why not run on 1.1.0 at that point.


Sorry, I was frustrated that TBH5 ran on the old OP shields when i was there, super annoying to be playing on an antiquated version of the game when it didn't change drastically, and changed for the better.

 

[Das Koopa]

Given that Combo Breaker is is running 1.1.5 I won't be using it for current data list

Anything besides Momocon this weekend?

 

[Aaron1997]

Das Koopa Sumabato 10 is going on this weekend

 

[my_T]

Luco your optimism for ness is astounding

out of curiosity what do you think of the ness GnW and why?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

There's no reason to think Marth is bad atm other than the "marth fair is outranged by sheik's" meme which isn't even relevant any more. Character is sick af to be quite honest. Like if Corrin wasn't released he'd be my pick for the best FE fighter atm.

Plot twist: Marth is actually a better character than Corrin.

 

[Teshie U]

So does DDD beat Ryu now? @Trela

edit: Trela lost to a former bayonetta who uses DDD.

 

[Radical Larry]

Yeah, Link's jumpsquat + nair hits on frame 14. There's no extra frame for dropping shield if you jump OoS though, I just accidentally said 15 because I remembered Link's jump squat being 8 frames instead of 7. I don't check frame data every time I post because I have most things memorized pretty well (maybe I have to start double checking though). Also, whether or not an attack comes out of shield, jump squat is always important.



Not counting Miis for obvious reasons, Link's top 8 and 16 results are between bottom 10-25 in the last few months, gradually getting worse as you look at larger tournaments. You can check them on this forum. Mobility and frame data are two very broad and important areas for a character and Link is severely lacking in both.

Well, I always use Tap Jump to get an instant OoS option to not have the shield drop. It makes things much better since Link actually has some viable OoS options.

But look, we will have to count Miis for the tier list since they are characters in the game. And in larger tournaments, Link's still done some sufficient results, you cannot deny that. And about Link's frame data, it's ironic you mention that, because his frame data isn't that poor in most areas if you consider all of the techniques he can use at his disposal. I admit, Link's mobility may not be the best, but at least it's something.

Spoiler

...but look, I have to say something to people who want a mobility buff on Link. Say if Nintendo does give Link a mobility buff, you know, makes his running speed between 1.6 to 1.7 and makes his aerial speed around 0.95 or 1.0. What do you think would happen then, huh? The only thing that would happen if his speeds ever come close to that is that he'll become a potential top 10 character. If anything's unchanged, like Link's sheer power, for example, then it means Link's going to be an extremely powerful character overall. If frame data is also buffed on him, it means Link would become too powerful.

 

[Nobie]

So I was thinking about something that was brought up a while back, which is the idea that Smash 4 characters lack powerful tools, which then renders them as bland. The reason it caught my attention was because the complaint mainly came in the form of criticizing the nerfs to the strongest characters, such as Diddy, Sheik, and ZSS.

Upon reflection, I realized that Smash 4 in no way lacks "jank" or characters with powerful tools and options. The thing is, characters with extreme strengths, particularly those with immense KO power, are theoretically balanced out by extreme weaknesses. Little Mac is the poster child for this. Rosalina, though top tier and good overall, has all of her kill power concentrated into a puppet that can be wiped out continuously.

In contrast, Diddy, Sheik, and ZSS are all well-rounded characters (aside from arguably ZSS's bad grab), and so they've been patched into something much more even overall. The top tier is filled mostly with these types of characters, and it can affect people's perception of the game.

In other words, all of those characters that people want doing crazy things are in the roster from the top tier to the bottom, but people seem to only want them to represent competitive Smash 4 when they're the best of the best. People want their super powerful characters, but seem troubled when those powers are tied to flaws that might very well be crippling.

 

[Megamang]

People that miss Hoo Hah kills and... do people miss the 50/50 that dominated the meta for months? I can't imagine that, but I think those are the same people complaining the tools are nerfed. Heres the deal, there are unique and powerful tools all over the roster, people just miss something stupid and abusive like a ladder from a dash attack at 18% didn't want to play a balanced game and just wanted to ram centralizing tools down your throat in some sort of caricature of smash 4. Our meta is looking extremely promising now, and the characters are definitely sufficiently unique. We are arguing over who might be the best! I've been waiting for that moment in smash for years.