Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Wintermelon43]

With one Ike quitting Ike

2 having either school or a full time job.

and one Ike not having the best results with a trip to SoCal (Ryo did pretty well at a local right after Fresh saga though, beating K9)

That'll happen. Rango will be at Momocon which has some pretty good people going, maybe he'll make a run to make up for what happened last week when he dipped pretty early to Nick Riddle.

Wait, which Ike dropped him?

 

[Mario766]

Ryuga.


This is old news.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Ryuga.


This is old news.

I thought he just picked up Corrin as a duo main?

 

[Mario766]

I thought he just picked up Corrin as a duo main?

Nope.

 

[PK Gaming]

This game has too many characters, fashions will come and go. On top of my head:
was hyped a lot and his hype is buried along dinosaur bones right now.
We pissed on him, Tearbear made a good run, "Cap. doesn't suck" then did nothing at all again.
they came, everyone got hyped, then they faded back to obscurity.
Gets pissed on constantly until FOW gets top 4/8 at something, then everyone gets back to piss on him.
When was the last time Pit was relevant?
Hype of the week/month.
Overhyped.
Hype is dead.
Hype is mostly dead.
ignored top tier!
He is in the game!!!
No one cares but she is there....
Where art U?!

There are so many characters and only so many tournament players. It's only natural that a few characters would slip through the cracks.

BTW, Rosalina's hype isn't dead. She's just dormant...

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Rosa isn't dead, she's just feeling under the weather.

I mean how could she not, with all the clouds in the sky

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I thought he just picked up Corrin as a duo main?

Dropped Ike for Cloud first IIRC, then switched over to Corrin.

And hasn't really been showing up in major results since then. At least nothing that gets posted in this topic.

 

[Radical Larry]

You know, a character with a wonderful combo game, kill game and edge-guarding game, along with one of the best projectiles and recoveries in the game is being underrated very heavily. Sadly, all because of sub-par mobility and slow Smash attacks, people piss on him despite him being a pretty decent middle tier character.

Remind you of anyone? He's literally on the left of you when you post.

 

[PK Gaming]

Sadly, Midoriya isn't playable in Smash Bros

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

No, I'm saying that Ranai is an insanely good player carrying a flawed character. That doesn't make it a "fluke", that just means Ranai is amazing. That being said, Ranai has turned his focus to SFV afaik, and his tourney performances have become lackluster as a result. This wouldn't too much of a problem for perceptions of the character, except most Villager mains don't do all that well, with Kept being the most successful at this point.

Hence, his placement could lower unless Ranai returns in top form for a major.



Canada and SoCal (and Florida) are demonstrably better regions than Minnesota.

I agree with your point on Ranai now that you've explained it, however about Palutena, I'm not saying how strong each region is (I'm Canadian and IceNinja is amazing) however Palutena does not have the national/international results at all to be moving up a phenomenal amount of spots. Like your point with Ranai, TLTC and Ice are just amazing players carrying flawed characters.

 

[Radical Larry]

Sadly, Midoriya isn't playable in Smash Bros

I was talking about Zangief obviously. Gawsh, I mean, he's big but got that decent frame data to make him good.

 

[L9999]

You know, a character with a wonderful combo game, kill game and edge-guarding game, along with one of the best projectiles and recoveries in the game is being underrated very heavily. Sadly, all because of sub-par mobility and slow Smash attacks, people piss on him despite him being a pretty decent middle tier character.

Remind you of anyone? He's literally on the left of you when you post.

Mmmm, Link? If it is the case, other things that Link has against him is that his frame data isn't that good all around, he is juggle/combo/string food because he is heavy and his recovery is hilariously gimpable. Nothing new since Link has been like this since Smash 64, but at least he is not complete garbage like, in Brawl for example. And frame data is not everything there is (see why people dismiss Shulk without playing against a good one) but it impacts a character's gameplan.

 

[Rizen]

Mmmm, Link? If it is the case, other things that Link has against him is that his frame data isn't that good all around, he is juggle/combo/string food because he is heavy+fastfaller, and his recovery is hilariously gimpable. Nothing new since Link has been like this since Smash 64, but at least he is not complete garbage like Brawl for example.

This is a misconception that needs to end. Link is about in the middle of the cast for recovery.
http://smashboards.com/threads/recovery-rankings.381244/
The rest I agree with.

 

[TurboLink]

Mmmm, Link? If it is the case, other things that Link has against him is that his frame data isn't that good all around, he is juggle/combo/string food because he is heavy+fastfaller, and his recovery is hilariously gimpable. Nothing new since Link has been like this since Smash 64, but at least he is not complete garbage like, in Brawl for example. And frame data is not everything there is (see why people dismiss Shulk without playing against a good one) but it impacts a character's gameplan.

How does having 1.6 fall speed make him a fast faller?

 

[juddy96]

Dropped Ike for Cloud first IIRC, then switched over to Corrin.

And hasn't really been showing up in major results since then. At least nothing that gets posted in this topic.

I don't think he's even been to a regional in a couple months, just locals

 

[Mario766]

How does having 1.6 fall speed make him a fast faller?

ROB has 1.6 fall speed

>Is a fast faller

Also Link's lack of a combo breaker for attacks, his fall speed and his weight make him combo food.

 

[UberMadman]

Larry's not wrong in that Link IS an underrated character who does get some decent results from time to time despite people seeming to say otherwise, but he is still a flawed character. The important thing about him is that he actually has really good reward OTHER than just raw kill power due to kill confirms off bombs and an excellent down-throw, so he can be quite threatening. However... he might have one of the worst disadvantage states in the game in every aspect other than his semi-decent recovery. Frame 7 jab and slower tilts mean that he loses CQC easily even for a swordsman, but he also has a terrible oos game other than the predictable and heavily punishable spin attack due to a frame 12 grab and frame 7 nair off of a frame 7 jumpsquat. Mewtwo has comparable problems but commands neutral due to his really good FAF windows on attacks that he can combo off of easily, (namely jab 1 and down tilt,) and his stupidly good mobility, whereas Link is slow and depends on bombs and downthrow off of a bad grab to get conversions while himself being horribly sluggish in all areas except fastfall speed. Toon Link tends to perform better because his higher mobility, lesser gravity, and smaller hurtbox tend to make him harder to catch and punish while performing a similar gameplan.

In short, Link has heavy punishes and has certain good matchups against characters who can't deal with his turtling, but in general he really falls apart against any character who can succeed in getting in his face and punishing him, so if you know the matchup, Link will struggle a lot harder to punish you as effectively as you can punish him. He's perfectly functional and not an awful character, but there's a few characters in the metagame simply do the role he's trying to do more effectively.

 

[Strong-Arm]

This is still a young game, obviously a ton of characters are underrated rn. This game is still crazy young and the difference between mid and high isnt as huge of a gap this time around.

 

[Trifroze]

1.6 is a medium fall speed.

Also Link completely lacks decent burst and OoS options. He has no mobility and he combines a slow and laggy grab, a bad dash attack and the lack of good rising aerials. His projectiles aren't enough to make up for all that in his neutral.

 

[Radical Larry]

It was Dedede I was mentioning, not Link. But keep going to the Link discussion.

 

[ARGHETH]

It was Dedede I was mentioning, not Link. But keep going to the Link discussion.

...
...

one of the best projectiles...in the game

right.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I've seen quite a few people readily state that she is a comfortable mid-tier, a few people state she's high tier, and even have seen adamant claims that she's potentially Top 15.

Can I get reasons as to why? I get the mid tier claims, but the Top 15/high tier? Is it because of Waveguider? Has John#s been to stuff recently?

 

[Radical Larry]

...
...

right.

Well I claim it's one of the best because it has several aspects of a good projectile, barring the fact it can be sent back (then again, we have characters who have projectiles that can be grabbed). For one, it's a decent poking tool from a distance, it can gap the distance between Dedede and the opponent, has combo setups, sometimes hits twice, is a really wonderful edge pressure or edge-guarding tool akin to ROB's Gyro and oh, remember its gimping and stage spiking ability?

It's one of the best because it has versatility. If a Dedede knows how to use it properly, then it becomes a pretty solid projectile.

1.6 is a medium fall speed.

Also Link completely lacks decent burst and OoS options. He has no mobility and he combines a slow and laggy grab, a bad dash attack and the lack of good rising aerials. His projectiles aren't enough to make up for all that in his neutral.

It's kind of funny that you mention OoS options. What options do you refer to? Spin Attack and Bomb? After Link drops his shield? Or the fact you can get nearly any good OoS option if you put Tap Jump on?

 

[Rizen]

1.6 is a medium fall speed.

Also Link completely lacks decent burst and OoS options. He has no mobility and he combines a slow and laggy grab, a bad dash attack and the lack of good rising aerials. His projectiles aren't enough to make up for all that in his neutral.

What you described shows he has a bad cqc, not neutral. Think of his DA like DDD's, except it hits above the lower platforms on Battlefield. It's not bad but more of a kill/punish than quick attack. He has bombslide burst options but I get your point of he has to be prepared to use them. His grab is also as long as shulk's Fsmash, it's for punishing. Link's game isn't like a rush-down character's. He doesn't move in without creating openings.
Link's neutral is pretty good, he has long disjoint, low landing lag and 3 projectiles. His attacks do good damage and have good shield-stun so Link isn't in a situation like Brawl where shields>Link. Link has a lot of safety with pivots, C4ing bombs and landing with low lag.
I'm not trying to say Link's anything more than lower mid-tier. I'm just saying you shouldn't think of him like a rush down but instead a heavy-zoner.

 

[blackghost]

Other than kill power, why would I want to play link over tink or megaman? I don't know see how link especially with the dumb boomerang and low movement speed is a better choice. In my region a lot of players played both but over time switched mainly to tink.
Am I missing something?

 

[Rizen]

Other than kill power, why would I want to play link over tink or megaman? I don't know see how link especially with the dumb boomerang and low movement speed is a better choice. In my region a lot of players played both but over time switched mainly to tink.
Am I missing something?

Link, TL and Mega Man all play very differently. Yeah TL's better in most MUs but they're different characters. Why would you want to play TL when Diddy's the better choice? Why play any bad character? It's who you like. *shrug*

 

[Megamang]

Link has a better (if not better, different, but im saying better) grab game. A vertical kill throw is a stronger asset than a ledge kill throw, his grab is longer ranged by a very significant margin, and he gets better combo's at almost all percentages. I believe that dthrow uair is a kill confirm on certain characters, but I am not sure on the details. Its a pretty hard confirm to get down pat, but its pretty good in his metagame. Bair is an interesting combo move that can have setups using only a single hit ala melee falcon nair. Don't quote me on this, but I think 1 hit bair -> spin attack is a confirm he has. Uair is a pretty cool move, it can be an airdodge trap by itself (but Link's speed makes this less useful than it would be).


In general, he is pretty damn different from Tink. Fair is a 2 hit with crazy power, range, and low landing lag. He has Zair that is much longer... his bombs are more for zoning and trapping than confirms. His nair is a really good edgeguarding tool, and the huge difference in his regular and fastfalling speed gives him good mixups offstage. His Dair is also way better, I think? If you are pinned in shield it is a great pressure tool compared to a meh stall-n-fall, and it really hurts when it hits. Spotdodge hurts it, but if you time that wrong you take a hard hit.

Wind boomerang is a pretty cool tool as well. You can really do a number on someone, and it synergizes well with his ranged usmash. He also is heavier, which is something I particularly enjoy in my characters =P

I'm no link expert, and im sure I just scratched the surface, but they are very very different characters. Pretty much every move is significantly different in their use. If I was pressed to say a random, important reason why you would choose slow link, I would say that it would be his dashgrab. That is an amazing midrange dominance tool, and it really has some painful followups. Zair is bretty cool as well.


EDIT: Reading this, I know someone is going to say it: Yes, Link has confirms from his bombs much like Tink. But for reasons often discussed in this thread, they aren't as large a part of his gameplan. Tink is likely to come in throwing a bomb, being all floaty and trying to confirm it to a fair at the ledge for a kill. Link can do this, but it carries all kinds of different risks and isn't as much a staple of his play, from what I understand.

 

[Trifroze]

Spin attack is 9 frames out of shield and has more than a second of endlag, jump canceled usmash is 11 and almost just as unsafe, and nair is 15. Grab has a lot of range but the startup of Link's grab increases if we're talking max range, becoming closer to 20 frames. Bomb is relatively fast when you have it, but his moveset doesn't flow into anything afterwards.

Also, CQC is a part of neutral as long as you're still playing the neutral game at close quarters. I'm aware Link isn't a rushdown character, but bad burst and OoS options are still weaknesses. Link is by no means a "solid character held back by a thing or two", he's a fundamentally unlikely design to do well in a competitive setting.

 

[C0rvus]

I've seen quite a few people readily state that she is a comfortable mid-tier, a few people state she's high tier, and even have seen adamant claims that she's potentially Top 15.

Can I get reasons as to why? I get the mid tier claims, but the Top 15/high tier? Is it because of Waveguider? Has John#s been to stuff recently?

High tier claims are unfounded. She has a few players who all get some good regional results, and I think Rin did well at Genesis (33rd?). But honestly, I no longer think the character is in the top half of the cast. She zones for little reward, has normals that make her cqc mediocre and she really can't contest a lot of characters with her normals. So, she just camps. So Wii Fit is pretty alright. She is good at camping, but it's all she's good at. She can get some high damage confirms off of falling nair and she has a okay kill throw with Deep Breathing active. I think her MU spread is pretty meh just because she struggles with anti-zoners inherently, and characters that can play around or nullify her projectiles really just have a field day with her.

That said, John Numbers makes this character work. Makes her look really quite good. But I do not think she is.

 

[TheBeggingBard ~~JoMo~~]

As a King Boozer main I feel as though he should be ranked in at least Mid-Middle or High-Middle (He is the king after all). He may be slow but goddamn he can hit hard. Bowserbomb breaks shield from any height setting up for a Forward-Smash. He can run, pivot grab is the best. Speaking of his grabs, oh my his grabs. They scare even me. *shudders* He's a grabby man. The only thing is his recovery is sub-par and he's juggling bait. But if you play bait and switch or defensive you'll be able to negate this. I also play BowWow as I play Lil'Mac: stage control. I do realize that I have to occasionally take it to the air but I prefer ground game. Hence why I would love to have The King Koopa moved up a couple spots

 

[Rizen]

Spin attack is 9 frames out of shield and has more than a second of endlag, jump canceled usmash is 11 and almost just as unsafe, and nair is 15. Grab has a lot of range but the startup of Link's grab increases if we're talking max range, becoming closer to 20 frames. Bomb is relatively fast when you have it, but his moveset doesn't flow into anything afterwards.

Also, CQC is a part of neutral as long as you're still playing the neutral game at close quarters. I'm aware Link isn't a rushdown character, but bad burst and OoS options are still weaknesses. Link is by no means a "solid character held back by a thing or two", he's a fundamentally unlikely design to do well in a competitive setting.

You're preaching to the choir except for the part about bomb not flowing into things, it does. Link suffers if the opponent can get into his 'bubble' (closer than jab/Fair tip). Max grab range is frame 17 btw.

The difference is in neutral Link will be spacing jabs etc and they usually out-range faster attacks by opponents. Link's cqc is spaced from the tip of his sword. He can make most opponents come to him by the threat of projectiles/Zair but he does have to keep moving or the opponent will close in. Disadvantage is when the opponent's in Link's face comboing him and he suffers greatly there.
Keep in mind I'm not making a case for Link being a good character, just that he's about the same tier as Kirby.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Which would be like.....mid-low tier?
I think Link could be in that position.

 

[Rizen]

Which would be like.....mid-low tier?
I think Link could be in that position.

It depends on where you cut off tiers, lol. That's why I say Link's about as good as Kirby or Robin to give some grounding.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Which makes me question, considering it's obvious how difficult it is to find out who's the best character, the high tiers, considering how many characters are capable of being there, mid tiers as well, even low tiers considering the gap between low and mid is, I'm quite sure, very small, then there's the bottom tier, but even then all these characters including jigs still have some strengths and stuff that you don't want to necessarily underestimate.

So yea, it's seriously hard right now to find out where every character belongs, which is why I'm wondering, can their currently be a tie between positions?

In past smash games first few tier lists, they all I'm sure, had some form of ties somewhere.

I think we should wait quite some time before making another official tier list or something, let's see what characters end up being higher or lower/ better or worse then what we currently perceive them to be.

 

[Nocally]

Which makes me question, considering it's obvious how difficult it is to find out who's the best character, the high tiers, considering how many characters are capable of being there, mid tiers as well, even low tiers considering the gap between low and mid is, I'm quite sure, very small, then there's the bottom tier, but even then all these characters including jigs still have some strengths and stuff that you don't want to necessarily underestimate.

So yea, it's seriously hard right now to find out where every character belongs, which is why I'm wondering, can their currently be a tie between positions?

In past smash games first few tier lists, they all I'm sure, had some form of ties somewhere.

I think we should wait quite some time before making another official tier list or something, let's see what characters end up being higher or lower/ better or worse then what we currently perceive them to be.

Just put them in the same tier without using numerals, problem solved.

 

[Radical Larry]

Spin attack is 9 frames out of shield and has more than a second of endlag, jump canceled usmash is 11 and almost just as unsafe, and nair is 15. Grab has a lot of range but the startup of Link's grab increases if we're talking max range, becoming closer to 20 frames. Bomb is relatively fast when you have it, but his moveset doesn't flow into anything afterwards.

Also, CQC is a part of neutral as long as you're still playing the neutral game at close quarters. I'm aware Link isn't a rushdown character, but bad burst and OoS options are still weaknesses. Link is by no means a "solid character held back by a thing or two", he's a fundamentally unlikely design to do well in a competitive setting.

I was going to make a huge thing about how you were wrong, but I think one person would have to look at two places to know how flawed your post is. Thankfully, I put them in bold colors.

One, here: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Link
You're very welcome.

Two, a character who's started frequently getting top 32, 16 and 8 results at tournaments that are regionals, majors and nationals, even, is totally a character unlikely to do well competitively. I mean, why look at all the tournaments so far that Link has just gotten good in when you can just post nonsense against him? He's not fundamentally unlikely, he's fundamentally infrequent for now.

Just put them in the same tier without using numerals, problem solved.

It would be a mess. For one, you wold have arguments over which characters should be where still, you'd have no organization, and there's no way characters in middle tier are the same. There is a reason why characters are better than others.

 

[C0rvus]

Pretty sure he meant nair if frame 15 out of shield, which is his 7 frame jumpsquat + 7 frame nair + 1 frame for dropping shield? idk.

Link's design (slow walling character with bad cqc) has certainly proven to be a not so great archetype for a platform fighter. He's been mediocre or bad in every Smash game (even in PM). Being slow with bad jump squat and poor boxing options just isn't a good combo, even if he has other strengths. The best characters in Smash tend to be fast, safe, and with good neutral. Link has maybe 1 of those. No hate, just saying it as I see it. He is probably low tier.

And I think instead of just saying "he frequently top 32's or 16's" (which btw almost every character does, most of them much more frequently), I think discussing set wins would be better. Sometimes players get easy brackets and buster out as soon as they hit a good player, but hey, they made top 64. Good placing, right?

You want to talk about how good Link is? Don't give vague qualifiers or stats. Who has Izaw beaten? Any strong sets by Scizor? Show and tell. More people would be willing to listen to concrete evidence.

 

[Ninety]

Presumably, Trifroze means nair's effective first frame, which means you add Link's 7-frame jumpsquat to his nair's 7-frame startup. So, yes, nair OOS will hit at frame 14 at the earliest.

Also, I remember Link doing well at some European tournaments, but not much more. Do you have somewhere I can look at his competitive results?

 

[Bowserboy3]

I was going to make a huge thing about how you were wrong, but I think one person would have to look at two places to know how flawed your post is. Thankfully, I put them in bold colors.

One, here: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Link
You're very welcome.

Two, a character who's started frequently getting top 32, 16 and 8 results at tournaments that are regionals, majors and nationals, even, is totally a character unlikely to do well competitively. I mean, why look at all the tournaments so far that Link has just gotten good in when you can just post nonsense against him? He's not fundamentally unlikely, he's fundamentally infrequent for now.



It would be a mess. For one, you wold have arguments over which characters should be where still, you'd have no organization, and there's no way characters in middle tier are the same. There is a reason why characters are better than others.

From what I am reading, you aren't understanding what Trifroze is referring to. He's referring to OoS Nair. Assuming Link is already airborne, Nair would come out on frame 7. However, in this situation, we're talking about him using Nair straight out of shield. If I am remembering specifics right, and my maths is correct, Trifroze is correct. You have 1 frame of the shield dropping, 7 frames of Link's jumpsquat, and 7 frames before Nair's first hitbox comes out. 1+7+7 = 15.

In this situation, Nair OoS is indeed 15 frames. Nair while already airborne of course is frame 7.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I remember Link doing well at some European tournaments [...]

That's only partly the case tbh.