Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[LancerStaff]

Doesn't Japan think real highly of Sonic? A couple of recent tier lists had him at #2, behind Bayonetta. In Japan Sonic's realistically looking like #1.

 

[Tizio Random]

https://vid.me/Sxk9

RIP Bayonetta combos 2016-2016
No, but seriously, if they didn't messed up and this is the new Witch Twist, it's awful.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Cloud has a losing record against Diddy Kong and Sheik and is said to have a disadvantage against Bayonetta. Since those three happen to be the best three characters in the game it's not hard to understand why Cloud never actually wins stuff. He could easily be #4 though.

 

[soniczx123]

Can't really camp Ike when you're needing to approach in the first place. I got zero problems not moving an inch once the match starts until you decide to approach. I have the range advantage and I have the advantage by reacting to Sonic, why would I move? And which point Ike's advantages kick in.

And while Sonic is fast... end of the day if he tries to camp he's still getting smacked in the face. Ike is covering too much space with his moves and again, when used correctly his aerials have little to no landing lag. Combine that with an actually pretty decent set of max speeds on the ground and the air and Sonic will not be able to keep it up. The fact Sonics for some strange reason keep trying to take Ike to Smashville really doesn't help them in any camping attempt either.

Edgeguarding... it can happen. But you watch the various StaticManny vs Ryo videos and it just doesn't happen often.

Seagull is the only top level Sonic with a winning record again top level Ikes. When he's the one saying that Sonic loses, you guys should really listen to him. He's the only Sonic that can do well against Ike. Between that and the insanely heavily slanted record in Ike's favour there's simply no logical way for it to be even. Ike wins. And not by a small margin. We ain't talking 55:45, we're talking 60-40.

I can't take the offer of it being 60-40. 55-45 or even is all I take. I would love to give my reasoning, but I unfortunately don't have the time right now :/

 

[Smog Frog]

japan thinks highly of because they have KEN and had komorikiri. it's also probably something to do with their stagelist. i have main bias so i think he's in the running for #1(top 5 at minimum). he did(and still does) do very well against , the 2 best in the game at this point. that's enough to have him in the top 5.

but overall i'm happy with the balance of the game. now that we don't have a definitive #1 and all those in the running have more than 1 losing matchup.

 

[KamikazePotato]

Sonic is pretty much the only clean win Ike has over a Top/Close-To-Top tier. Sheik and Diddy are bad matchups. ZSS, Ryu, Fox and Mario are poor but manageable. Pikachu, Cloud, and Rosalina are about even.

 

[ARISTOS]

I would hold off on any premonitions until some time has passed. The 0-deaths are gone but she still ****s out dmg output and has a very great disadvantage.

ATM for me the top meta revolves around these characters, including Bayo:



Right underneath these characters are:

 

[Emblem Lord]

So all you ******* crying about Bayo can now ask Nintendo to change your diapers, since you won't be ****ting yourselves for attention anymore. For now at least.

****ing losers.

 

[Nemesis561]

So all you ******* crying about Bayo can now ask Nintendo to change your diapers, since you won't be ****ting yourselves for attention anymore. For now at least.

****ing losers.

EDIT.. sry bad post, bit of an overreaction

 

[MistressRemilia]

I would hold off on any premonitions until some time has passed. The 0-deaths are gone but she still ****s out dmg output and has a very great disadvantage.

ATM for me the top meta revolves around these characters, including Bayo:



Right underneath these characters are:

I'd personally put Ryu in the underneath category.
Despite Trela's recent success, Takera doing decent in Japan recently and a bunch of accomplishments from players such as Hooded, Venom, Darkshad and others here & there that solidify Ryu a little bit, i still don't quite see Ryu as a threat as huge as the characters you've listed because he doesn't exactly feel like one of these characters for several reasons that i'll try to list.
As i said, Results have been a bit better recently, but they're not quite up to the top tier standards yet, maybe CEO or GOML will prove me otherwise, but it's kind of a no right now, even with Trela's impressive win of 2GGT:Fresh Saga.
Theory, it's probably even worse. Ryu kind of is " unbalanced " in the way that he has really dumb stuff slapped on a character with average mobility & prone to losses against disjoints users & zoners who have a decent enough disadvantage state. Due to his absurdly good advantage state, i guess he's kind of volatile where even his toughest matchups can be manageable, but overall, i feel like he struggles against more than any character in more matchups up to Ness.
A bunch of results also prove this point: 9B's loss at Genesis 3 against 2 Diddys that most likely are one level below him in terms of skill kind of showcases Ryu's struggle against who may have the tool to not play Ryu's game as much as he wants. I'd say it's the case with Diddy thanks to his excellent moves for neutral like Fair, as well as the usable Peanuts & obviously, Banana out of shield will become very handy against the character, there's a bunch of others charas that prob beat Ryu, such as Megaman.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I can't understand this.

First we have people coming out the woodwork saying that Bayo is too strong, is toxic, and a stain on the game strong enough to cause banning or quitting the game.

Then when the company listens and addresses the problem, we got people coming out of the woodwork saying that they were too tough.

I'm starting to think that it's not X character, but it may be the community......
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[DJ Arcatek]

I'd personally put Ryu in the underneath category.
Despite Trela's recent success, Takera doing decent in Japan recently and a bunch of accomplishments from players such as Hooded, Venom, Darkshad and others here & there that solidify Ryu a little bit, i still don't quite see Ryu as a threat as huge as the characters you've listed because he doesn't exactly feel like one of these characters for several reasons that i'll try to list.
As i said, Results have been a bit better recently, but they're not quite up to the top tier standards yet, maybe CEO or GOML will prove me otherwise, but it's kind of a no right now, even with Trela's impressive win of 2GGT:Fresh Saga.
Theory, it's probably even worse. Ryu kind of is " unbalanced " in the way that he has really dumb stuff slapped on a character with average mobility & prone to losses against disjoints users & zoners who have a decent enough disadvantage state. Due to his absurdly good advantage state, i guess he's kind of volatile where even his toughest matchups can be manageable, but overall, i feel like he struggles against more than any character in more matchups up to Ness.
A bunch of results also prove this point: 9B's loss at Genesis 3 against 2 Diddys that most likely are one level below him in terms of skill kind of showcases Ryu's struggle against who may have the tool to not play Ryu's game as much as he wants. I'd say it's the case with Diddy thanks to his excellent moves for neutral like Fair, as well as the usable Peanuts & obviously, Banana out of shield will become very handy against the character, there's a bunch of others charas that prob beat Ryu, such as Megaman.

Forever forgotten

 

[Emblem Lord]

How is this guy not suspended or banned or something? Every post is the same go get laid bro

Check my join date and the **** I have posted.
Half the high level vocabulary this community uses now, came from posts I made nearly a decade ago.

Lurk more little one.

Every time a mod gives me an infraction they know it hurts them as much as it hurts me.

EL is one of the last high ancient ones.

On topic - Diddy is number 1.

Prove me wrong.

 

[Pancracio17]

So did bayo get 'd or 'd?
Hopefully the latter but man, those sdi changes and losing almost all the reward of a divekick hurts.

 

[Mr. Johan]

People expected Bayonetta to be nerfed in ways that allowed her combos to still be prevalent. Uair doing horizontal knockback, her Smash attacks taking a heavy knockback nerf, maybe Bair and Nair being slower, anything that allowed her to keep her chains, but not convert into instant-kills in mid-level play.

Instead, she got bopped in measures that significantly gut her appeal as a combo character.

It's no wonder people are critical of the changes. It's like making Sheik's attacks slow, or removing Peach's float.

 

[Nemesis561]

Check my join date and the **** I have posted.
Half the high level vocabulary this community uses now, came from posts I made nearly a decade ago.

Lurk more little one.

Every time a mod gives me an infraction they know it hurts them as much as it hurts me.

EL is one the of last high ancient ones.

On topic - Diddy is number 1.

Prove me wrong.

Sorry for the post it was dumb, but seriously if you're so smart then can you productively post your thoughts instead of acting holier than thou?

Anyways back on topic, I feel like this may have been a bit too rough on Bayo, she obviously needed fixing but this looks like a massacre. Let's wait until the patch hits though

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sorry for the post it was dumb, but seriously if you're so smart then can you productively post your thoughts instead of acting holier than thou?

Anyways back on topic, I feel like this may have been a bit too rough on Bayo, she obviously needed fixing but this looks like a massacre. Let's wait until the patch hits though

Posting like a jackass is way more fun, especially when in recent years the community has become so soft and PC. Man oh man this is a stark contrast to the days I used to go to war with Mew2King, Chillen, Overswarm, AlphaZealot, Inui, and others.

But fine I will humor you.

These nerfs seem quite harsh and will mostly only effect mid level players i.e the players that are not strong enough to make an impact anyway. They also break the cardinal rule of nerfing imo. Nerf overpowered tools. NEVER NERF FUN FACTOR. These changes SEEM to do that. Make her less fun. I think that is very sad. However, only time will tell.

 

[Zelder]

The nicest thing about these forums is that people don't feel the need to be giant swinging **** heads over a fighting game involving Pikachu and Kirby. You can find that on every other single corner of the internet, I like that everyone is mostly chill and nice.

 

[PK Gaming]

Here's a humorous summation of Bayonetta in Smash Bros before the latest patch

Adieu, mon cheri~

 

[BunbUn129]

The SDI changes would've been enough. An increase from 1 -> 2 is absurd, especially when you compare it to the 1 -> 1.5 they gave to MK's uair and how badly it affects him.

 

[SubconsciousRose]

Okay so to not be totally pessimistic about 1.1.6 and just having people repeat either "Bayonetta's been gutted" or "Bayonetta will be fine" for near every other post in this thread, let's consider how Bayonetta play is altered by this as a whole.

What I feel deserves a bit more consideration yet I rarely see talked about in regards to her is Bayonetta's edgeguarding. I've always felt that the combination of extended uair/nair (seriously why do I never see anybody talk about these) and Witch Time into near ANYTHING she wants is seriously threatening to some characters offstage. Even prepatch I did see some Bayonetta using Witch Twist's knockback to gimp offstage.

These options should be explored more as I feel prepatch, people pretty much always opted for Witch Twist/ABK as the "do everything" kind of buttons.

Though the gifs and videos showing the new Witch Twist are admittedly a bit concerning, I am really curious as to where Bayonetta's meta will go from here.

 

[Charoite]

Yes this is like if 1.1.5 nerfed 50/50 and of top of that add more landing lag to her aerials or nerf her frame data, in the case of pre patch would be if like you nerf this hoo ha and nerf this banana play,she still good at edgeguard, she still has witch time, and she still has good disadvantage state, yes but she passed from a combo character to a punish character, is like if passed to be a zoning character, despite being designed as a rushdown character.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The SDI changes would've been enough. An increase from 1 -> 2 is absurd, especially when you compare it to the 1 -> 1.5 they gave to MK's uair and how badly it affects him.

Everything except the SDI modifier was completely appropriate. On the plus side, if she's overnerfed that might get them to do more patches.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I definitely feel a compensation patch is in order. Maybe buff Witch Time up a bit or possibly speed up her jab and ftilt. Seems like she is gonna be about Bullet Climax spam with lots of nair/dtilt and edgeguarding.

 

[[BROF]]

So apparently the amount of nerfing is equivalent to the amount of whining from the community.
Could you say this is perhaps the biggest single nerf in all of the game's life? Probably.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Quick notes about Bayonetta:

She will still probably be pretty useful in Doubles, with her ability to support teammates with Witch Time and Bullet Arts. She still also has Bat Within, which is an amazing ability that any character would really love to have. While her frame data is still sluggish, she can still do fair chunks of damage from her Jab Combo, Ftilt combo, successful Witch Time combos, and confirms off of Dtilt/Utilt into aerial Side B into an aerial. Most of her aerials are still pretty good, too. She can also still cheese some free damage thanks to her normals being able to shoot weak invisible bullets. Up B, regardless of how nerfed it is, is still a frame 4 OoS with a huge initial horizontal hitbox. And lastly, while Divekick no longer causes ladder combos, it MIGHT be slightly more useful for edgeguarding, since it sends opponents at a more horizontal angle. I don't know how useful it would be (have to see it in action more), but I assume you can probably stage spike people if you are lucky, at the very least.

There is no denying that nerfs hit her like a truck. But not everything is doom and gloom about her. I feel as though she will still have valuable niches in the competitive meta, even if she is nowhere near as dominant as she used to be.

 

[KamikazePotato]

I'm in the 'this is the final patch' boat. I think it's very telling that they only nerfed Bayonetta. It really just seems to be a patch to address the widespread complaints she was getting across the board, and that they consider every other character more or less okay.

Then again, if this patch was pretty much just for Bayonetta's sake, what did they bother updating stages for? What did they even update about those stages anyway?

 

[FallofBrawl]

Bayonetta's gonna be okay, we just have to compromise.

 

[Wintermelon43]

The comunity right now is like that kid with ice cream in spongebob who complains about the type of ice cream he has

"But I don't want these Bayo nerfs!"

"Then why did you ask for it?"

 

[Mr. Johan]

https://vid.me/UBoA

We're Brawl now, everybody.

Holy moly.

 

[ARISTOS]

https://vid.me/UBoA

We're Brawl now, everybody.

Holy moly.

Ah ****, I can't believe they've done this.

Waiting until the patch drops but if this is true I can only imagine two hit strings from Bayo now

 

[Illuminose]

Check my join date and the **** I have posted.
Half the high level vocabulary this community uses now, came from posts I made nearly a decade ago.

Lurk more little one.

Every time a mod gives me an infraction they know it hurts them as much as it hurts me.

EL is one the of last high ancient ones.

Hi, no one actually cares. It's about how you act now, not how you acted in the past. Contributions to 'high-level vocabulary' are not a warrant to be an ass.

On topic - Diddy is number 1.

Prove me wrong.

Better matchup spread than Diddy and significantly stronger top level results between Mr R/Void and other Sheiks atm. She's consistent in virtually all aspects and this hasn't really changed. The thing with Diddy is that he is more liable to getting "cheesed" than Sheik by far. He's no more oppressive than other top tiers around him like Cloud/Sonic/Rosa/Fox in that sense because you CAN get him in bad situations and exploit him, whether edgeguarding or trapping him at the ledge or punishing his options in disadvantage or messing with his banana (see Mr R for really effective demonstration of this).

I also wanna throw something underrated out. Diddy has by far one of the most even matchup spreads with fellow top tiers and high tiers, of characters we would consider top 5. Sheik beats the large majority of these characters. Rosa beats the large majority of these characters. Cloud beats the large majority of these characters. Most of Diddy's matchups in this realm are approximately even, with probably around 6-7 -1 or borderline -1/even matchups. This means that it takes Diddy significantly more effort to win all these matchups consistently in bracket, which is definitely a hindrance to the character.

 

[Ulevo]

I can't understand this.

First we have people coming out the woodwork saying that Bayo is too strong, is toxic, and a stain on the game strong enough to cause banning or quitting the game.

Then when the company listens and addresses the problem, we got people coming out of the woodwork saying that they were too tough.

I'm starting to think that it's not X character, but it may be the community......
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

1: Those people are not the same people 100% of the time.

2: They over did it.

I definitely think she needed changes but these changes were too drastic.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hi, no one actually cares. It's about how you act now, not how you acted in the past. Contributions to 'high-level vocabulary' are not a warrant to be an ***.



Better matchup spread than Diddy and significantly stronger top level results between Mr R/Void and other Sheiks atm. She's consistent in virtually all aspects and this hasn't really changed. The thing with Diddy is that he is more liable to getting "cheesed" than Sheik by far. He's no more oppressive than other top tiers around him like Cloud/Sonic/Rosa/Fox in that sense because you CAN get him in bad situations and exploit him, whether edgeguarding or trapping him at the ledge or punishing his options in disadvantage or messing with his banana (see Mr R for really effective demonstration of this).

I also wanna throw something underrated out. Diddy has by far one of the most even matchup spreads with fellow top tiers and high tiers, of characters we would consider top 5. Sheik beats the large majority of these characters. Rosa beats the large majority of these characters. Cloud beats the large majority of these characters. Most of Diddy's matchups in this realm are approximately even, with probably around 6-7 -1 or borderline -1/even matchups. This means that it takes Diddy significantly more effort to win all these matchups consistently in bracket, which is definitely a hindrance to the character.

He asked me why I hadnt been banned yet. I answered his question.

As for your post about Sheik. Good stuff.

I feel Diddy is more solid in the neutral overall and having real kill confirms is a luxury that Sheik lacks.

 

[bc1910]

Check my join date and the **** I have posted.
Half the high level vocabulary this community uses now, came from posts I made nearly a decade ago.

Lurk more little one.

Every time a mod gives me an infraction they know it hurts them as much as it hurts me.

EL is one of the last high ancient ones.

On topic - Diddy is number 1.

Prove me wrong.

Calm down a little bro. You know I enjoy your posts - but no-one worth listening to is really denying that Diddy is #1 right now.

Just an addition - I agree with you that the roster is pretty weak as a whole now.

 

[FullMoon]

Here's a humorous summation of Bayonetta in Smash Bros before the latest patch

Adieu, mon cheri~

I like that a bunch of those clips are Witch Time -> Smash Attack things that were left completely unchanged

 

[Scrubtorights]

I won't say much about Bayo's nerfs as that has been repeated but there is much more to Bayo we didn't learn about yet imo. Does fair combo better with rage for example. I guess the outrage is about the fact that not many people one really understands how to deal with Bayo without theory. Bayo has also not have gotten to chance to grow without meddling from soft bans apparently. This isn't my thoughts on the nerfs but how I think some people are peeved at how it was done.

 

[BlazGreen]

Bayo got knocked out of the stadium with the nerf bat, geez. She might be a completely different character now but I'm going to hold off on calling her bad until I see what people can do with her once the patch rolls out.

If this is the last patch until the inevitable NX version then I'll be quite content. There's arguably 20 or so characters in the top/high tiers and many of the characters below them are keeping up quite well too. The only sad thing to come from this is that there are still quite a few characters who could use some buffs who might not get any for a long time.

 

[Anomilus]

Check my join date and the **** I have posted.
Half the high level vocabulary this community uses now, came from posts I made nearly a decade ago.

Ha. Check MY join date and the stuff I've posted.

I've contributed... pretty much nothing.

...I...I WAS a notable voice for promoting a potential new character! .......ridley...

Um...

Hmm...

Oh dat Bayonetta the nerfs that be a thing, Guys. Yeah, 1.1.6. We're gonna talk about this for a while...

 

[bc1910]

So did bayo get 'd or 'd?
Hopefully the latter but man, those sdi changes and losing almost all the reward of a divekick hurts.

This isn't directed at you specifically, but no character has ever truly been "Greninja'd" apart from Greninja himself. He literally fell off the face of competitive play for over a year.

Let the Luigi and MK mains whine - their characters are still achieving top 20-level results. It's only now, after being repeatedly rebuffed, that Greninja has started to pick up steam. And according to Koopa's rankings he still performs significantly worse than a high tier should.

Time will tell whether Bayo has been truly Greninja'd, but past experience would suggest that she hasn't. And with this looking like one of the last if not THE last patch, God help her if she has.