Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[juddy96]

Apparently they are going to reseed the bracket, which isn't too much of a pain because Zinoto was already the 5 seed, not much had to be changed.

ZeRo vs. M2K
Mr. R vs. Larry
Nairo vs. Leo
Ally vs. ANTi

 

[Greward]

How convenient that ZeRo enters a tourney as soon as Bayo is nerfed

Spoiler

It's such a coincidence that zero had that injury just when bayonetta got released and he healed just when she has been nerfed.
Such a shame he will never be able to play a not-nerfed bayonetta
/s

 

[juddy96]

It's such a coincidence that zero had that injury just when bayonetta got released and he healed just when she has been nerfed.
Such a shame he will never be able to play a not-nerfed bayonetta
/s

To be fair this tournament doesn't have any good Bayos anyway lol, I think there is literally one half decent Bayo there and he's running the side stream lol

 

[FallofBrawl]

Apparently they are going to reseed the bracket, which isn't too much of a pain because Zinoto was already the 5 seed, not much had to be changed.

ZeRo vs. M2K
Mr. R vs. Larry
Nairo vs. Leo
Ally vs. ANTi

Damn, it looks dim for a Leo/Ally winners bracket set

 

[DunnoBro]

Mario... I dunno. He's got a lot going for him but he lacks the generally absurd tools that the other top 5 contenders have. A lot of his moves are very good but that's just it. They're "very good" and not "exceptional," like Needles, Bouncing Fish, Sheik's FAir, Diddy's DTilt, Monkey Flip, Flip Kick, and other such moves.

I honestly believe mario's meta hasn't been properly explored yet. Just the fact at kill percent uthrow sets up for diddy level landing traps due to the raw 90 degree angle and uair easily killing that high up (Also confirming into kills at lower percent if they DI'd into you, like to attack), and mario having the easiest punish of jump + DI away with fludd, all of this letting bthrow stay fresh.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Can I entertain the idea that Ganon has one of the best set of options in the game when he's at the ledge? Potentially top 10?

 

[OFY]

Can I entertain the idea that Ganon has one of the best options in the game when he's at the ledge? Potentially top 10?

No way is he top 10 lol. He's got good ledge cancels with his b moves and can gimp exploitable recoveries with falling uair off the ledge, but his weaknesses are too evident to be anywhere near there.

did i just get a baited by a troll post, legit response anyways >.>

 

[williamsga555]

Top 10 at ledge options, I assume, as opposed to Top 10 in the cast all-around.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Um you can't ledge cancel with normals and I didn't mean edgeguarding. I meant when he's hanging by ledge with opponent waiting for him.

 

[OFY]

Top 10 at ledge options, I assume, as opposed to Top 10 in the cast all-around.

woops my bad, read that wrong

Um you can't ledge cancel with normals and I didn't mean edgeguarding. I meant when he's hanging by ledge with opponent waiting for him.

Edited it with B moves. In terms of edgeguarding potential (ledge options) than yeah I can kind of see him in that position you said.

edit: nevermind i rlly cant lol, i mean against like recoveries that have a preset trajectory like falcon sure, but there are so many recoveries that he cant deal with on the ledge.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Um you can't ledge cancel with normals and I didn't mean edgeguarding. I meant when he's hanging by ledge with opponent waiting for him.

You're going to have to elaborate, son.

And you're going to have to be real convincing, too.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Okay so..
1. Lowest ledge grab in the game, really hard to hit him without actually going offstage (and potentially putting yourself in bad position) Only can get hit by:

Spoiler

(Outside of dive-kick D-Airs, the aerials assume that the opponent lands on the stage during/after the aerial.)

Bowser: F-Tilt (down-angled), D-Tilt, F-Air, D-Air
Bowser Jr.: D-Tilt (first hit only), B-Air, D-Air, Up-B (explosion)
Captain Falcon: U-Tilt, D-Air, Down-B (aerial)
Charizard: F-Tilt (down-angled), D-Smash, N-Air, F-Air, D-Air
Dark Pit: D-Air
Diddy Kong: D-Tilt, D-Smash, D-Air
Donkey Kong: F-Tilt (down-angled), D-Tilt, D-Smash, D-Air
Dr. Mario: Dash Attack, F-Tilt (down-angled), D-Tilt, D-Air (falling), Forward-B, Down-B (final hit)
Duck Hunt: D-Air (second hit)
Falco: F-Smash, D-Smash
Fox: D-Smash
Ganondorf: Down-B (aerial), D-Air
Greninja: D-Smash, D-Air
Ike: D-Tilt, U-Smash (front hitbox), D-Smash, N-Air, D-Air, Neutral-B
Jigglypuff: F-Tilt (down-angled), D-Smash, D-Air
King Dedede: Dash Attack, D-Smash, F-Air, D-Air, Up-B (stars only)
Kirby: F-Tilt (down-angled), D-Smash, D-Air, Up-B, Down-B (landing hitbox)
Link: F-Tilt, D-Smash, D-Air
Little Mac: D-Tilt, D-Smash, D-Air, Forward-B (max distance)
Lucario: F-Tilt (down-angled), D-Air, Neutral-B (shot @ ~70+%, charge @ 140+%), Forward-B (~125+%)
Lucas: F-Tilt (down-angled), D-Smash, B-Air, D-Air
Lucina: F-Smash, F-Air, D-Air, Forward-B
Luigi: D-Tilt, D-Air (sourspot only)
Mario: Dash Attack, F-Tilt (down-angled), F-Smash (down-angled), D-Tilt, D-Air (final hit, falling), Forward-B
Marth: F-Smash, F-Air, D-Air, Forward-B
Mega Man: F-Air, D-Air
Meta Knight: D-Air
Mewtwo: F-Tilt (down-angled), D-Air
Mii Brawler (minus specials): F-Tilt (down-angled), D-Tilt, D-Air
Mii Gunner (minus specials) Jab1, D-Tilt, N-Air, D-Air
Mii Swordfighter (minus specials): F-Smash, N-Air, D-Air
Mr. Game and Watch: D-Air
Ness: U-Smash, D-Smash, N-Air, D-Air
Olimar: D-Tilt, D-Smash, F-Air, B-Air, D-Air
Pac-Man: F-Tilt (down-angled), D-Air
Palutena: D-Air
Peach: D-Tilt, D-Smash (final hit only), D-Air (single hit)
Pikachu: F-Tilt (down-angled), U-Tilt, D-Smash (final hit), Down-B
Pit: D-Air
R.O.B.: N-Air (beginning only), B-Air, D-Air, Forward-B (down-angled)
Robin: D-Smash, D-Air, Forward-B (max range, final hit only)
Rosalina and Luma: F-Air (first hit only), B-Air (Luma only), D-Air
Roy: D-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Smash, F-Air (sourspot), B-Air (sourspot), D-Air, Neutral-B, Forward-B
Ryu: None
Samus: U-Tilt, D-Tilt, D-Smash
Sheik: D-Tilt, F-Air, D-Air, Up-B, Forward-B, Down-B (only late in animation)
Shulk: D-Smash (final spin only), N-Air, F-Air, B-Air, D-Air
Sonic: D-Tilt, F-Smash (down-angled), D-Smash
Toon Link: Jab, F-Tilt, D-Tilt, F-Smash
Villager: F-Tilt, D-Tilt, F-Smash, D-Air, Down-B (falling tree)
Wario: Dash Attack, Down-B
Wii Fit Trainer: D-Air (sourspot)
Yoshi: F-Tilt, D-Tilt, F-Air
Zelda: D-Tilt, D-Air, Down-B
Zero Suit Samus: D-Tilt, D-Air, Down-B (footstool hit)

Credits to The Reflex Wonder for the info above

2. Ledge drop specials that beat opponent shielding by ledge, include ledge drop -> jump up b (good and deceptive horizontal range)
Or the same thing but side b

3. Ledge drop aerials can cover some distance with uair, fair (although pretty laggy after done), and bair doesn't hit the opponent, but you can ledge drop -> jump -> bair for autocancel and basically react to your opponents defensive position (side b for shielding opponents, the armour it has plus horizontal range buff it received last patch only makes this even better).

4. Ledge jump cancelled wizard foot -> anything, really need more info on this. I'm not a Ganon main, but here is some footage:

I'm having a hard time believing this is a legit ledge option, is this stage dependent? I dunno. Sorry if you knew about all these already, making me sound like a broken record?

 

[PMMikey]

I think Charizard has a more lopsided matchup spread than Ganon. Zoners are parts of the same story, but Zard has more random good matchups where i feel Ganon does more generally decent.

Could be, I never see zard used honestly enough to give a more fair analysis.

 

[DunnoBro]

Can I entertain the idea that Ganon has one of the best set of options in the game when he's at the ledge? Potentially top 10?

One unexplored thing about ganon I'm curious about are his air grab release set-ups. He is the tallest in the game so he should be able to do it to everyone. Wizard's foot covers no jump, nair covers jump and hits at a super bad angle for someone with no jump.

 

[SaltyKracka]

One unexplored thing about ganon I'm curious about are his air grab release set-ups. He is the tallest in the game so he should be able to do it to everyone. Wizard's foot covers no jump, nair covers jump and hits at a super bad angle for someone with no jump.

And then you realize that requires Ganon's terrible grab to snag somebody out of the air. Impractical, to say the least.

 

[LancerStaff]

Random thought. "I wonder....did Nintendo/Namco have the intention from the start to make bayo stupidly good (ballot winner) just to milk sales till they dropped off, then nerf her to appease the competitive community."

Would be a good way to make some easy money.

Pretty sure that's what happened with Corrin, judging from how they nerfed all his speed attributes and how powerful the counter was.

Makes a bit more sense if you consider these two advertising for their games instead of just being OP DLC characters, next to Roy and all.

 

[PMMikey]

Is the current stage list a problem for heavies? It feels like they are locked into a CP problem, where Duck Hunt basically has to be striken if its allowed and then you have stuff like SV/TaC Limit camping being really easy and effective. I don't think the stages should change, but ganon is much scarier with less platform to avoid him with. It seems like they have problems when running away doesn't require even a 'soft' prediction, but instead is mathematically guaranteed once they are at a certain spacing.

I have been testing stages with DK and from my experience Lylat is pretty solid and Smashville or Town and city depending on MU.

 

[Lavani]

One unexplored thing about ganon I'm curious about are his air grab release set-ups. He is the tallest in the game so he should be able to do it to everyone. Wizard's foot covers no jump, nair covers jump and hits at a super bad angle for someone with no jump.

The bad news is, while Ganon is tall, he doesn't hold opponents very high with his grab (lower than Rosalina does, at least). With his poor mobility specs he can't really close the distance to punish an air release either; Greninja's forced to land after air release, but even with 13f frame advantage it takes Ganondorf roughly 20 frames to actually get to Greninja with dash attack. And Greninja isn't air released even if grabbed out of the air in the first place.

In that particular example Wizard's Foot can't hit Greninja until 26 frames in due to his landing animation either (13 frames to powershield!). But in general everyone should be safe jumping away from Ganon at the very least, might as well fthrow and get some guaranteed damage along with your stage control at that point.

I was really hoping he'd be able to air release Greninja into late DA>uair at kill percent so I decided to look into this a bit.

 

[Charoite]

At the moment, you're probably right. But whose to say that won't change at some point down the line? I mean no one thought much of Mewtwo until Abadango won Pound. Greninja was a meme and then iStudying tore through BEAST 6. After Diddy was nerfed over and over people were putting him far out of top 5, and suddenly he's contender for best. The community's view on tier placements for a lot of characters has been changing immensely over the past few months, which is awesome, but we have to remember that for a few months, it was this same community that was convinced Pikachu was top 4, Diddy was top 10, and Mewtwo was mid/low.

It's all bound to change. What happens when banana counterplay really starts to develop? Or when new developments are made against Cloud and his recovery? My point wasn't that in a month we might see some Villager or Pikachu reigning over everyone else, but that at some point down the line, it's not the most unlikely scenario. Results are important, but they aren't everything. For the time being, it probably will be those three; almost all evidence points towards it at the moment. With that said, I doubt it will stay that way for long, and that's what I'm excited about.

The thing with diddy and to some lesser extend sheik is that they have being pretty consistent in his results even post nerf, they both have the highest number of top players available, is not the result itself but the consistent itself, example even with Zer0 not going to tournaments diddy and sheik results did not got worse, both of they players metagames have developed counterplay against all of the other top tiers or high tiers that have come and gone, if you look at the other top tiers you note that they have things against them that they make them inconsistent theory and result wise:

despite being top tier threat she has negative matchups against 2 good character, one considered a top tier too, is pretty common at all level and easy to use and the other could claim a even better matchup against you.

needs a different mindset that your typical top tier, is difficult to be consisted with him , his metagame is not as advanced as the other top tier, has questionable matchup against some high tier characters, simply dont worth enough for the trouble.

has a similar problem, she may have good matchup against a specific group (heavyweights, slow characters) but against the other top tier her weakness show against common practices (baiting grabs, playing defensive), she like ryu is very demanding to play at the highest level meaning that if you aren't at your 100% or 90% then you probably would have a bad time on longer tournaments making your placement inconsistent, that's no good.

Is more difficult to use against the other top tier except , and unless they are floaties you can't convert stocks as easily as pre patch, so your weakness becomes more apparent especially against character with good neutral ie:.

metagame will stagnant, because i dont think any of the top players would jump on her if they didn't do it when she was "the best", not only that she pre-patch her results against weren't good, now that she got worse against 2 of the most common threats in the game, her future looks grim, at the top play.

results never worthy of a top tier, maybe high tier and even then, he has problems against who are pretty common and easy to use.

Has the advantage to be one of the easy if not the easiest character to be good if you know the fundamentals of the game, there is reason why he like mario are very common as secondaries and he does good vs , now that is nerfed the majority of her playerbase would go to him advancing this metagame even further.

is the becoming better by virtue of the top tier getting worse he is easy to play and because he never changes, add consistency which is good thing to have, but he has not so good matchups against some of the top tiers or maybe too much even matchups against the rest of the top tiers that makes him a bit unappealing.

has a similar problem against cloud and rosa, but his results are improving to the point that he being a top tier and not a high tier could be true of course this depend if or becomes more common or not.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Btw, for the first time I looked at Ganondorf's frame data, and his aerials (while their landing lag is terrible), are a lot faster than I thought (frame 7 Nair, frame 6 Uair), and UAir even autocancels in his shorthop (as does his Bair).... that's kind of scary.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Can I entertain the idea that Ganon has one of the best set of options in the game when he's at the ledge? Potentially top 10?

Main problem with that is that he can't DJ airdodge onto the stage, and his poor double jump in general kind of limits his options there. Best ledge hang in the game though. He'd be great there with a decent DJ.

 

[Mr. Johan]

There's a reason Tipman is so good at edgeguarding.

@ Charizard, while there's obvious bias coming from me from having fought him more than most other heavies, I think Zard's the best when it comes to establishing his presence against zoners in general. With an extra jump, great dash speed, a great Fair still wish it was Brawl Fair though, and Flamethrower, Zard is really good at reminding the zoner that he can close the gap if you give him an inch. He doesn't get as much reward as DK or Bowser does when he gets in, but Zard just simply gets in more frequently.

 

[Strong-Arm]

So on the topic of Palutena, I have a hard time believing she's as bad as people make her out to be. Considering her recent results, I think shes a solid mid tier and far from bottom or low tier like people constantly say she is

 

[Quantumpen]

I think there are very few "low tiers" in this game. A lot of the perceived gap is simply due to characters who were at one time or another overtuned having large player-bases and therefore developed metagames, but I'm of the opinion that smash 4 is extremely balanced. It has no broken characters, and the character gradation is something like "can consistently win majors solo (10-15 characters) -> can win majors with a decent secondary for bad MU's (another 15-20) characters. and "Undertuned" characters who probably aren't viable at top level rounding at the rest. Most of these characters still have quite a few good MU's and can be good secondaries. Then there are a few really bad characters.

The whole top 5/10 artifice isn't appropriate in a game this well balanced, the differences are so much smaller than the variance in information caused by character popularity differentials (which ultimately have historical roots)

Palutena is IMO, a perfect example of a character who hasn't been developed but is probably in the second group.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Btw, for the first time I looked at Ganondorf's frame data, and his aerials (while their landing lag is terrible), are a lot faster than I thought (frame 7 Nair, frame 6 Uair), and UAir even autocancels in his shorthop (as does his Bair).... that's kind of scary.

Dorf's aerials are amazing. Even with poor landing lag, Bair and Fair are pretty safe on shield due to their massive shieldstun and pushback when properly spaced. He's held back by poor mobility, OOS, and recovery, but most of his standard moves are actually really good.

 

[Jona Bon Boa]

So on the topic of Palutena, I have a hard time believing she's as bad as people make her out to be. Considering her recent results, I think shes a solid mid tier and far from bottom or low tier like people constantly say she is

That's what I'm starting to believe as well

 

[OFY]

So on the topic of Palutena, I have a hard time believing she's as bad as people make her out to be. Considering her recent results, I think shes a solid mid tier and far from bottom or low tier like people constantly say she is

It might be due to under representation, IMO she is deff underrated and I'm starting to see the come up with Prince Ramen having a close set against M2k's cloud and iceninja hitting top 5 at EGLX.

 

[sedrf]

Reminder 1.1.6 hasn't came out yet so everybody should remain calm.

also another ntoe:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Why do people overrate/underrate their mains especially top players

 

[DunnoBro]

And then you realize that requires Ganon's terrible grab to snag somebody out of the air. Impractical, to say the least.

Impractical how? He doesn't get many grabs but he does get them. This could explain why they made his grab so bad if he has legit air release coverage.

Obviously not the difference between viability and top tier, but I just meant I was curious what he could do when he did get the rare grab.

 

[FullMoon]

Reminder 1.1.6 hasn't came out yet so everybody should remain calm.

also another ntoe:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Why do people overrate/underrate their mains especially top players

People know their main best which means they know both their strengths and weaknesses in detail. Consequentially that can lead to either overrating or underrating said character because it's the one you know the most about for better or for worse.

With pre-patch Bayonetta for instance a lot of people could think she was a perfect character by seeing her do her silly ladder combos in tournament frequently, but the people who actually main her would know her weakspots better than anyone else and have to struggle with said weakspots might see her in a less "positive" light. Not the best example probably but I think it conveys what I'm trying to say anyway.

 

[Illuminose]

Reminder 1.1.6 hasn't came out yet so everybody should remain calm.

also another ntoe:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Why do people overrate/underrate their mains especially top players

very simple reasoning

people who play a character tend to have a more one-sided view of that characters pros (or cons) based on their general play with the character, in many cases.

everyone has main bias, it's just the degree and form of it.

 

[Ninety]

Reminder 1.1.6 hasn't came out yet so everybody should remain calm.

also another ntoe:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Why do people overrate/underrate their mains especially top players

...Pikachu main says his character is top 3, everyone goes ape****

 

[Charoite]

People know their main best which means they know both their strengths and weaknesses in detail. Consequentially that can lead to either overrating or underrating said character because it's the one you know the most about for better or for worse.

That and the majority of players look more at the advantage state of a character rather that the neutral or disadvantage because these aren't in your face.
example people are more impressed if a character kill early in the screen that if they win neutral and get damage, disadvantage or neutral aren't as flashy as advantage, more if the advantage looks easy to do even if sometimes isn't.

Why you think at the end of every tournament we have these, but only if the character wins and is on screen:

Wow Trela wins a tournament with ryu Dragon punch is super broken, Cloud is brain dead, wow abandango wins a tournament mewtwo fair is stupid, Nairo wins against void ZSS is still super good, even if only he and marss are winning tournaments, Dabuz uses rosalina Up-air jank, ding dong is unfair, aura was a mistake is nothing but trash.

Then they dont show for a few tournaments or dont win anything and nobody remembers they, example .

If a wins, you dont see the same outcry, because they dont have explosive advantage state, only on specific moments(sheikville comes to mind),and thats why nobody uses , they aren't flashy or explosive, they dont rack damage fast, dont kill fast etc.

They give more importance for what is on the screen.

 

[sedrf]

Also pit is just not good and is kinda boring to some people

 

[DblCrest]

sedrf
I think C Charoite has the right idea. From a spectator point of view most people will look at what tactics jank or strengths the character used rather than their struggles.
Might be an underdog thing too or if my character was really good I'd be winning every game right? ;D

 

[Strong-Arm]

How is Pit "not good"

 

[Big-Cat]

Reminder 1.1.6 hasn't came out yet so everybody should remain calm.

also another ntoe:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Why do people overrate/underrate their mains especially top players

I swear Rosalina players underrate their character. Anyway, it's because of both a one-sided view and how everyone relies on theory too much.

 

[Das Koopa]

My opinion is that Sheik/Diddy are #1 and #2 post-patch assuming Bayo's the only one getting slammed. They work best off fundamentals, have the strongest neutrals, have the best projectiles, have the best results besides Bayo, etc.

In partial response to @Trifroze

: I think the fact that Marss and Nairo are capable of winning as hard as they do in high-level settings is ultimately a reflection of what the character is capable of played at the highest level. Because of this, I don't even think that ZSS's otherwise lackluster results mean much, again reminiscent of where Prince Abu is a galaxy's distance from HBox.

Again, though, it depends partly how you define "Overrated". ZSS, and Sheik are, as far I know, the only characters to solo-win true majors.

IMO, ZSS is just really hard to play effectively so a lot of people either don't pick her up or don't do fantastically with her because they aren't as good at the character as Marss/Nairo.

 

[Quantumpen]

Sheik has a lot of weaknesses in 1.1.5. Her fair hitbox nerf was significant, and she can get outspaced by a lot of characters and she almost always loses trades. She's great at racking up damage but against any character with a lot of kill options the match-up is even at best. Sure her neutral's great but it's really not that big a deal anymore... she can win neutral 4-5 times and get about the same reward as other top tiers get off of a single victory, especially at high percents.

Mewtwo vs. Sheik is definitely advantage Mewtwo. Everyone might not agree with that yet, but it's pretty obvious. She spends all match beating on him, he can easily outspace her get two d-tilt combos and then she's in trouble if she gets bopped by rage up-smash, shadow claw, or at slightly higher percents one of the kill throws. that's not the only such match-up.

The character is being carried by the sheer caliber of the players using her (VoiD, Mr.R) because of her historical strength. These players are incredible and really play with a precision we don't see from other characters -- yet they don't really dominate. I do not feel that she's the best character in the game (There is no clear "best" character in the game at this point in the meta). Her theory isn't really that much better than most of the other " top 10" at this point, if she didn't have such a wealth of strong players behind her she wouldn't be over-represented in terms of results.

 

[Ffamran]

I swear Rosalina players underrate their character. Anyway, it's because of both a one-sided view and how everyone relies on theory too much.

Now I really want to know if Smash had a training mode like in The King of Fighters and Street Fighter would there be less of a reliance on theory and guesswork? Before anything else, there's nothing wrong with theory or guesswork. It's just in Smash's case, because of how training mode works meaning we can't easily test stuff by ourselves -- people are busy, they have their own lives, so it's difficult to lab with someone 24/7 not to mention that since people aren't machines, they're going to get tired and might understand directions incorrectly --, theory is used more often and sometimes, too much. Moving on, complacency and laziness will always get in the way, but there would be a tool that would always be there to prove and disprove anything. Someone could show, I don't know, hypothetical situation that Fox can whiff punish all of Mario's moves and has the ability to immediately counter out of all of Mario's combos and setups with even more damaging combos and setups meaning Fox always has the edge in damage rather than going, "Fox wrecks Mario because his moves do this and he can do this right after Mario's combos". Maybe if that tool existed, people wouldn't be as... loud when it came to certain things. Granted, that doesn't mean that it would allow everyone to counter certain setups, but just give them knowledge on how to deal with them more easily -- there's a reason why some setups are called confirms and combos and not links or strings.