HoSmash4
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2015
- Messages
- 688
I know people will suggest others, but thats a good thing. The top 5 or so are really close.
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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
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I know people will suggest others, but thats a good thing. The top 5 or so are really close.
FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
I think out of all characters now that Bayo is nerfed we're about to enter the new reign of Diddy Kong.
Although at least this time he's significantly less BS
Although at least this time he's significantly less BS
ArnoldPalmer
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 3, 2016
- Messages
- 116
Its been that way since 1.1.5. I was a war between Sheik, Diddy, Cloud, and Bayo. I honestly never thought Bayo was a candidate for no. 1. Her mobility sucks, her frame data is bad, her neutral is kinda meh, and she had numerous bad matchups particularly against Diddy and Sheik.
Sounds more like Rosalina is the best now
I know people will suggest others, but thats a good thing. The top 5 or so are really close.
Ffamran
The Smooth Devil Mod
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2014
- Messages
- 14,629
Melee Falco says hi. His run speed was the same as Mario's and his air speed was just a little under Mario's. Falco was average in horizontal mobility in Melee. In Brawl, he was slightly below-average, and in Smash 4, he's below average on the ground and slow in the air. 1.0.8 upped his air acceleration from 0.07 to 0.09 and his air speed from 0.893 to 0.92. He's still slow on the ground, but slightly faster in the air and reaches top speed much faster. Falco with Mario's run speed of 1.6 would not be broken. Falco would move up from below-average to average. Falco with a run speed of above 1.8 probably would; 1.8 is around Bowser's run speed. Something else broken would be like Ganondorf with Mario's run speed. Slow to average.
What made Falco broken in Melee and Brawl was his neutral. His neutral was among the best when his Blaster fired lasers that traveled from one end of the stage and past the other towards the blast zone. Low committal Blaster through auto-canceling allowed Falco to zone the hell out of people if he wanted, but why do that when he could approach with Blaster? Few if any character in any fighting game can approach with a projectile like Falco could. Most characters have to follow their projectile by catching up to it. Falco hopped, fired Blaster, and the laser was already in front of him with him being able to continue by moving forward or SHL again. Add in his Nair, Bair, and Dair which when L-canceled had low landing lag in Melee allowing him to pressure shields easily. All 3 having good hitboxes that allow him to crossup made it even better. Then there's a frame 1, jump-cancelable Shine that pressured shields and setup his famous combos. In Brawl, he's still got Bair to pressure and crossup and sometimes Dair since it no longer had a body hitbox, but still had a good auto-cancel and low landing lag. In all games too, he's got good ground pokes through jab, Utilt in Melee -- it's an anti-air in Brawl onward --, Ftilt, and Dtilt. Combine all of those with his fantastic advantage in Melee and his good, but not as strong as it was advantage in Brawl. Falco was a monster in neutral and advantage and in a way, played more like a Street Fighter character with Marvel's air combos. In Smash 4, he's got an advantage that's average, but can reach good if you let him like taking him to Smashville and getting screwed by the platform or DI'ing incorrectly and letting him setup a back hit of Uair to Bair KO'ing you at ~100% near the ledge. Neutral on the other hand, isn't good. Because Blaster can no longer auto-cancel prevents him from being able to approach with laser, but also because when auto-cancel was removed, its total frames was never readjusted causing Falco to have to deal with really high recovery on Blaster. Blaster can still annoy and trouble some players, but if you're going for that one laser to zone like Mario using Fireball or Ryu using Hadouken, that's not going to happen.
Horizontal mobility, especially ground speed, never made Falco broken since he was never beyond average outside of walking. With Falco's current Blaster, a 1.6 run speed on him would be like Ryu, except if Hadouken wasn't a useful zoning tool and if Ryu didn't have any reliable KO setups. Really, what is Falco going to do? Run up to you? He'd need run speed at least at Marth's 1.785 run speed to do that easily. He can't zone like in previous games and he can't even zone like Bayonetta, Lucas, Mario, Ness, or Ryu with their projectiles. Air speed on the other hand? Yeah, give him Mario's and you'd have a character who has the highest jump with fast, strong aerials and 3 of them, Nair, Fair, and Bair, have high active frames. Falco would probably be able to leap towards the blast zone, put out Nair or Fair, KO you, and then jump back like it was nothing. Air speed's low, so it stops that. Greninja and ZSS work high jump with high air speed because their aerials don't linger as long and/or they're not as fast as Falco's. Otherwise, Falco's just going to play the same game of messing around with footsies, but with an average run speed instead of a below-average one.
Umm... I suggested that Dtilt be changed and not outright nerfed? Lower its range by removing a disjoint, but boost its power. Falco excels at close-range, so why not have a Dtilt that strong for close-range? One heavy punish. I also suggested buffs and fixes to other moves? Have Ftilt not be unsafe on-hit at low percents so its a better spacing tool and rapid jab fixed -- a lot of rapid jabs do need some re-tuning like Bowser Jr., Captain Falcon, Greninja, and the Pits. The only move I would outright nerf and not do anything else to is Fair by removing its landing hit. Would ask for lower landing lag, but Sonic's got 26 and I'd rather not have Sonic have to deal with that alone when Pikachu's got 15. Falco's Fair being mostly used for air-to-air followups rather than Sonic's kind of lower to the ground makes the landing lag fine for Falco and kinda of Sonic since he can auto-cancel it from a hop. Pikachu's low landing lag was probably because before that one update 1.0.9 or 1.1.0 changing how hit lag worked with shields. Before, moves with hit lag were really unsafe on shields. Pikachu's Fair has hit lag modifiers because its electrical, so it just made sense. Now that hit lag doesn't make moves even more unsafe on-shield -- a boon for Ryu --, it's kind of weird, but not really a big deal.
The only problems I have against Falco's moves is only towards Dtilt's disjoint and Fair's landing hit. Both boil down to I don't think its fair when you can't see what's really happening. A hitbox is thrown out, but there's one you can't see while the other happens when you don't expect it at all because of the landing animation and because you can't see its range when its disjointed. Players should be able to see what's happening. Mewtwo Fairs you. Welp, that's your own fault. First time it happened, you probably should have figured out its fast, so don't just stand there looking at Mewtwo thinking nothing will happen. If it KO'd you, probably should have figured it's strong. Is it over-tuned? Maybe, but it's not like Mewtwo Fairs and it connects despite you being an arm's length away from his hand. That's something that shouldn't happen then. The problems that I have concerning how moves being dysfunctional is just jab and Fire Bird. Also Blaster and Falco Phantasm, but that's more of design concepts, though. Everything else is pretty much fine.
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bc1910
Smash Lord
Diddy Kong is the best character in the game now. Whether you look at results or theory I feel that's the most logical conclusion.
The wider community will probably call Rosalina the best in the game.
The wider community will probably call Rosalina the best in the game.
Uhh
Err
Umm
Wha
Anyways only arguable one is the neutral and even than she can ignore neutral in a fashion like Pikachu and QAC, except it's ABK everywhere or shield and gtfo move with witch twist. or Dtilt/Nair guns to tack on free %
As for bad MUs, don't think she had any truly awful or even -1 matchups, just a couple rare evens that people talked about like Megaman as an example cause Kame vs 9b.
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HoSmash4
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2015
- Messages
- 688
I actually believe Rosalina isnt held back by a lack of player representation. But rather several bad matchups and core character problems.
Rosalina's gameplan isnt versatile enough to be #1. Nevermind the fact that her results are actually really lacking outside of Dabuz, Falln and Atelier recently.
She is extremely good in the metagame with
being in the range of 45:55 to 55:45.Diddy Kongs kit is just so good. Despite not having many kill options below 100, the amount of killing options that begin to open up for him from 100+ is absurd.
Utilt is the icing on the cake. Utilt....
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Zinoto and MVD insist Diddy hsd 7-8 losing matchups and ZeRo strongly disagrees with Diddy being the best
Coincidentally they are all Diddy Kong mains so there may be a conspiracy afoot.
From GameFaqs, presumably reliable since the user has loads of Karma:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/73757312
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/73757312
So does she still has combo ? Would be not great for a combo based character
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ArnoldPalmer
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 3, 2016
- Messages
- 116
I mean in comparison to other potential top tiers. Sheik, Diddy, and Cloud all have better frame data
Also, neither Pikachu or Bayo can just ignore the neutral. Quick Attack isn't a "oh lol, neutral? lmao" thing, its a "You can't play footsies with me because I can punish you from anywhere on the map" sort of thing that combined with his strong neutral tools (good grab, safe pokes, good mobility, usable projectile) gives him a top tier neutral. Bayonetta doesn't have good overall mobility or many safe pokes. Because of the angle of her projectile it isn't very effective at a distance and while Witch Twist is a great oos option it is still punishable by certain characters.
You have to play more patient and defensive against yes but that doesn't mean she just wins every MU
Mr. Johan
Smash Hero
Was expecting something like a grounded WT angle adjustment, but they just make SDIing the thing wholly easier, and gut Divekick. I'll be.
I assume the damage nerf on Fair 1 makes it so that people can airdodge out in time before a potential WT or another Fair because of the subsequently less hitstun?
I'm still hopeful that other patches will be along the way in periodic fashion - can't see this not being supported when Corrin and Bayonetta Amiibo are still to be released and the idea of a Smash port for the NX still up for debate. So I guess we'll see in the impending months, particularly post-EVO.
bc1910
Smash Lord
I think they are downplaying the character. As far as I know, neither results nor theory support Diddy having that many losing MUs. MVD in particular underrates Diddy Kong to a legitimately worrying level, he has said he's not top 10 before. MVD's limitations as a player are affecting his results, not the character (and his results are improving now anyway).
These sound very severe.
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Quantumpen
Smash Apprentice
I'm that gamefaqs user, and as far as I can tell she can't kill anyone anymore off of any blast zone from a combo. The sky carry combos that use downward angled ABK are out for obvious reasons (The move just doesn't combo at all), and even the simplest ones or ones that confirm out of witch twist directly are out unless the second up b outright kills. Even assuming they don't SDI out of it (and it's not hard to do anymore), you don't get the follow-ups off of the second up-b at mid-high percents anymore so it doesn't kill, it just does decent %.
The side-stage blast zone combo is gone for sure, the last hit of fair won't kill reliably kill with decent DI and they can just SDI out of the up B (or DI out of it) and have the fair miss all-together.
At best you get some decent percent out of like, witch twist -> up ABK -> bair. That's her combo game now.
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I see, thanks!I actually believe Rosalina isnt held back by a lack of player representation. But rather several bad matchups and core character problems.
Rosalina's gameplan isnt versatile enough to be #1. Nevermind the fact that her results are actually really lacking outside of Dabuz, Falln and Atelier recently.
She is extremely good in the metagame with
Diddy Kongs kit is just so good. Despite not having many kill options below 100, the amount of killing options that begin to open up for him from 100+ is absurd.
Utilt is the icing on the cake. Utilt....
bc1910
Smash Lord
Thanks for visiting.
How hard is it to SDI the first Up B? I noticed that had SDI multiplier increases as well.
Jaxas
Smash Champion
Hmm, so with all this what strengths does Bayonetta still have going for her?
WTwist is solid, but the reward on it is way lower now of course.
BA-Nair edgeguards still wreck a lot of characters... if you can get them there, of course, but hey dABK kind of seems to do that alright? Not sure, just going off of the video so I have no idea what the DI cone is.
She should still have Dtilt->Utilt->(Utilt->)Uair->WTwist->uABK->Bair, just using her non-special moves for the most part. Obviously Dtilt is much harder to land now, though.
Really though, I think Bayo's poor neutral (which is actually poor now, since dABK has almost no threat; it's probably still pretty safe, but the reward is just so low that it's worth challenging now) is going to be a major problem for her.
WTwist is solid, but the reward on it is way lower now of course.
BA-Nair edgeguards still wreck a lot of characters... if you can get them there, of course, but hey dABK kind of seems to do that alright? Not sure, just going off of the video so I have no idea what the DI cone is.
She should still have Dtilt->Utilt->(Utilt->)Uair->WTwist->uABK->Bair, just using her non-special moves for the most part. Obviously Dtilt is much harder to land now, though.
Really though, I think Bayo's poor neutral (which is actually poor now, since dABK has almost no threat; it's probably still pretty safe, but the reward is just so low that it's worth challenging now) is going to be a major problem for her.
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Quantumpen
Smash Apprentice
It's a lot harder than the second (which is literally brain dead) -- but it's possible. I think they decreased the moves knockback or something at the same time as bumping up the SDI modifier, but I was able to wiggle out of it 3/15 times when I was expecting it. I'd say it's still pretty tough to get out of on reaction, but you can DI out of it well enough to avoid some follow-ups (like fair).
Someone with better SDI skills than me will have to check it, but I think her options out of the first up B are about like they were before, other than the fact that downward ABK is useless.
I don't think she's trash. She can still get some pretty good damage off of combos, kill with them at high percents (only when U-air/Bair starts to kill), witch twitch is still really good though it's less stupid. Witch time didn't get touched they she's not getting free kills off it anymore since she can't pull that dive kick abk combo set-up. Like Jaxas said, since you don't really care about getting hit by ABK, you can kinda just throw out smash attacks or anti-airs when you predict one and even if it beats you, so what, you take some damage. She really has issues with enemies that just spam shield and grab her since she can't safely shield pressure.
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DunnoBro
The Free-est
Her neutral is still fine, and most bayos don't even come close to utilizing it fully. Because they don't need to. Bullet climax will probably function as the core of her neutral instead of fishing for afb/witch twist/time.
Since it can be canceled into any of her specials, it lets her stuff grabs with witch twist, higher aerial approaches with afb, and apply grounded pressure by canceling into bullet arts dair.
bc1910
Smash Lord
There was some post-patch Bayo play on stream and the nerfs don't seem that bad. They're harsh, but she wasn't gutted.
She still has the same combos that were advertised in her trailer ie Witch Twist to up ABK to up ABK to 2nd Witch Twist. Witch Twist OoS is still incredibly safe, just a little harder to hit with and can be challenged with disjoints (but not on reaction).
She can still 0-death off Witch Time but the counterplay/DI to all the new angles hasn't been fully explored yet.
The biggest thing is that anything involving divekick no longer combos except on superheavies like DK, and only with no DI. Hurts her neutral since she no longer gets crazy reward off what was a very safe poke, and hurts her combo game for obvious reasons.
She's a lot more sensible but she should still be good. Although unless she hits a Witch Time, she WILL be killing at much later percents if up B 2 doesn't combo into anything.
She still has the same combos that were advertised in her trailer ie Witch Twist to up ABK to up ABK to 2nd Witch Twist. Witch Twist OoS is still incredibly safe, just a little harder to hit with and can be challenged with disjoints (but not on reaction).
She can still 0-death off Witch Time but the counterplay/DI to all the new angles hasn't been fully explored yet.
The biggest thing is that anything involving divekick no longer combos except on superheavies like DK, and only with no DI. Hurts her neutral since she no longer gets crazy reward off what was a very safe poke, and hurts her combo game for obvious reasons.
She's a lot more sensible but she should still be good. Although unless she hits a Witch Time, she WILL be killing at much later percents if up B 2 doesn't combo into anything.
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Tizio Random
Smash Journeyman
I think it's safe to say that dABK was much better than it was intended originally. That move was nuts, seriously: it combo'd into itself and brought the opponent incredibly high. In fact, I predicted the angle nerf.
Now Witch Time will probably be used more, as it was always intended, as of 1.1.5 no one really used it.
Hopefully Bayonetta players will start to explore her neutral more.
Just one question: how big is the change in SDI of her two Witch Twists now? Is it still quite hard or is it braindead easy to escape?
Now Witch Time will probably be used more, as it was always intended, as of 1.1.5 no one really used it.
Hopefully Bayonetta players will start to explore her neutral more.
Just one question: how big is the change in SDI of her two Witch Twists now? Is it still quite hard or is it braindead easy to escape?
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DunnoBro
The Free-est
ShadowGuy1
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2015
- Messages
- 1,311
Is the patch out for us to play
Tizio Random
Smash Journeyman
Uhm... I said Witch Time o_ò
No, the patch isn't out yet but I think people already mod their 3DS to try the new Bayonetta.
bc1910
Smash Lord
My gut instinct says that this will be a nerfed Diddy/Sheik situation where everyone loses their minds and calls Bayo mid-tier, but she still ends up being very viable.
It will most likely be out for us to play after tomorrow's maintenance.
No, but it's already on the servers. Dataminers and modders are able to download the files and see what's changed, then mod their copy of Sm4sh with the new files to play the changes in-game.
It will most likely be out for us to play after tomorrow's maintenance.
ARISTOS
Smash Ace
Bayonetta is likely still great, though now with SDI multipliers being on everything will find it a lot harder to hit followups. I imagine Bayo will find it hard to kill atm outside of Witch Time (unless I'm wrong and ABK-->Uair still connects)
DunnoBro
The Free-est
My b. And yea, I'm curious to see the optimal punishes off low witch time useages (When smashes aren't quick enough)
bc1910
Smash Lord
There was a 0-death on DK from Witch Time posted on Reddit. It only worked by barely connecting downward ABK with the 2nd Up B at the blastzone though. Looked very DI-able.
I am expecting Up B, up Side B, up Side B, Up B to still kill if you hit high enough with the first Up B, which is easy to set up from Witch Time at any percent.
NachoOfCheese
Smash Ace
If we can't tell who the best character in the game is anymore, the meta is in a good place
Baby_Sneak
Smash Champion
It's Diddy, but the gap has significantly shrinked though.
Trifroze
all is cheese, all is jank
I don't know, this seems more like a Luigi or at least MK situation. I've been theorycrafting ZSS' matchups hard on my spare time ever since I came back from my break in March, and I've really wanted to put Bayonetta as a 50:50, but then I play
HoSmash4
who never drops the combos (unless I guess right) and realize how dominant Bayo's advantage is, and then I consider it a 40:60. I would imagine this is the case for many other characters as well.Soon a new meme will be born, and that meme shall be "my main x" beats Bayonetta.
but it might end up being more than a meme for many of them
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ParanoidDrone
Smash Master
Wouldn't that be her advantage stage that's hurt? Once she scores a hit and is looking for followups, you're no longer in neutral.
I'll grant the threat of good reward can influence how the opponent moves in neutral though.
Greward
Smash Lord
Actually zinoto said in his ask that diddy's bad/difficult matchups are
, so just 3.http://ask.fm/Zinoto/answers/135396786783
And they're probably a slight disadvantage at worst
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Baby_Sneak
Smash Champion
What are your feelings about the nerf on bayo?Actually zinoto said in his ask that diddy's bad/difficult matchups are
http://ask.fm/Zinoto/answers/135396786783
And they're probably a slight disadvantage at worst
Greward
Smash Lord
nice I guess lol, but we still have to see them ingame to judge
ParanoidDrone
Smash Master
Also I forgot to bring it up, but Rosalina as #1 in the game? I highly doubt that. Main bias aside, she loses to Meta Knight and Cloud and in my personal experience she needs to play very carefully around disjoint in general (Marth, Ike, probably Corrin). With Cloud in particular being a fellow top tier character, I think she's kept in check enough to preclude her from being best in the game.
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