Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[SaltyKracka]

You have every right to your opinion, but you have to remember that this game isn't designed to be competitive. We should be glad we got any patches to begin with. Now take Bowser or Ganon for instance. How could you make him competitively viable and yet also fair in a casual FFA environment? Ask yourself the same question with Sheik and Jiggs. I'm also quite lost by your introduction sentence. Just take a look at what they did for Mewtwo, Ike, Kirby, Samus, Marth/Lucina, Zard, Ganon, and the many others I didn't mention.

What an absolutely idiotic question. Not only can you not balance around an inherently political game mode such as FFA, if you understand anything about the game, you don't even try.

And yeah, I've seen what they did for Ganon. They took the worst character from Brawl, nerfed him, and have spent more than a year of consistent patches...making him still one of the worst characters in the game. Man, such an achievement. They should totally get a trophy for that one.

 

[Radical Larry]

The most prominent changes on Bayonetta are actually hitbox size changes and some SDI numerical values turning from 1 to 2, as well as some minor damage nerfs here and there. I'm just hoping to see someone pull out some things from them for the other characters.

EDIT: https://www.diffchecker.com/siubqsf5
Here's the change list.

 

[UberMadman]

What I'm surprised about is that it seems that Witch Twist was not touched in any way whatsoever, but I suppose if Bayonetta no longer has 0-to-deaths off of divekick it doesn't matter too much. Obviously none of us have had a chance to see all these changes in action, but nothing here seems like anything that is going to dethrone her from top 5 to me.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

Is it maybe possible the engine underwent changes? 60mb is quite a bit for just bayo changes no?

 

[Strong-Arm]

wait did the patch come out?

 

[Radical Larry]

wait did the patch come out?

I don't think. I think only Bayonetta changes did.

 

[LancerStaff]

There's always a chance this is just part of the patch, like what happened with Cloud's patch, though I'm not terribly optimistic with how specific it is...

 

[Strong-Arm]

So we only know about what was changed to Bayonetta so far? Just tried getting online and it worked just fine so the patch isnt out yet

 

[HeavyLobster]

wait did the patch come out?

Nothing has been released to the general public. Data miners have supposedly found stuff.

 

[Radical Larry]

Nothing has been released to the general public. Data miners have supposedly found stuff.

But the question is: Where and how?

 

[Pancracio17]

But the question is: Where and how?

Its on the server, they downloaded it and compared it to 1.1.5

 

[Man Li Gi]

But the question is: Where and how?

Nintendo servers already have the patch, its just not released yet.

 

[Radical Larry]

Thank you for the information. I'm wondering if they'll give me the Link changes, hehe.

 

[UberMadman]

Thank you for the information. I'm wondering if they'll give me the Link changes, hehe.

There are none, literally only Bayonetta received changes.

 

[PK Gaming]

That's... disappointing, though I'm relieved that none of my characters were hit at the same time.

I think... I think I would be okay with if this were the final version of Smash tbh. Bayonetta was my main sticking point in regards to balance.

 

[Radical Larry]

There are none, literally only Bayonetta received changes.

That's...ouch. All this anticipation for a balance patch and this is what we get? Well that sucks.

 

[FullMoon]

What an absolutely idiotic question. Not only can you not balance around an inherently political game mode such as FFA, if you understand anything about the game, you don't even try.

And yeah, I've seen what they did for Ganon. They took the worst character from Brawl, nerfed him, and have spent more than a year of consistent patches...making him still one of the worst characters in the game. Man, such an achievement. They should totally get a trophy for that one.

These characters were all considered pretty bad but as patch came out they became mid-tier at least. Depending on how you might saw/see them you can also add and to this list.

And even if characters like and are still considered bottom tier they're still doing significantly better after balance patches happened and made them able to compete at least a little better with the other characters. I mean, even Zelda has been getting some decent results lately courtesy of Purple Guy.
The only bad character I can think of that didn't get any kind of benefit from patches are and (maybe ? I don't remember him getting any positive changes other than removing the Oil Panic jank in doubles, even then whether he's bad or not is up to debate)

This game's balance has improved a lot since the 3DS version came out, I really don't get why you're calling the devs incompetent when they've clearly done a lot of good to the game's meta.

And who knows if this is the last patch, unless Nintendo says anything on the matter it could be that they just decided to focus on Bayonetta in this one.

 

[Mario766]

It's not even that disjointed or far reaching. 3.5 to 2.8 is a 0.7 difference. From Furil's hitbox visualization.

Spoiler: DTILT

Of all the Dtilt ranges to reduce, hers and not Falco's. Y'all realize his is stupidly disjointed, right? It's deceptive. Unfair. You see Bay's freaking leg sweep around, but Falco? Thin tail feathers. It's got an attack trail, but the disjoint is placed after the attack trail. It's frankly, disgusting to players. People complain about Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's disjoint on their Side Smashes, but those are frame 19 with 38 recovery frames and 21 with 34 recovery frames moves, respectively. Falco's is frame 7 with 19 recovery frames.

Yes, Falco's is hella disjointed

But is it a super strong combo starter, safe when spaced, and can lead into extremely dangerous positions due to ladder combos?

Nah, it's just on Falco.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Note: There are also changes to Pokemon Stadium and Palutena's temple.

https://twitter.com/SammiHusky/status/733146102375931909

 

[Ffamran]

Yes, Falco's is hella disjointed

But is it a super strong combo starter, safe when spaced, and can lead into extremely dangerous positions due to ladder combos?

Nah, it's just on Falco.

The first 2, it does and plenty of Dtilts setup while some happen to be safe when spaced, so your point being? I can only give you ladder combos since Falco doesn't have one. Falco or not, it's a huge disjoint that shouldn't be there when absolutely nothing suggests it should. Even if the attack trail was placed further out, it would look silly when people realize Falco's tail is that short. Same goes for his landing hit of Fair which you can thank 1.0.4 for moving the hitbox out and thank 1.0.8 for not outright removing it when they dropped its landing lag from 32 -- Seriously, developers? -- to 25.

 

[Mario766]

I'll let Falco have a huge disjoint on d-tilt.

His kit isn't stupid otherwise, one small quirk on a hitbox doesn't change anything.

Now Bayo


No

 

[Das Koopa]

I think judging by (intelligently filtered) results there's a case to be made for ZSS being heavily overrated, and probably always has been. Her results are well below the other characters she's always grouped with, and more than half of them are by Nairo and Marss. If you removed those two players she'd have mid tier results even at the top level (which is already the case for her on high and mid level). You can take any other character who's considered top/very high tier, remove 2 players and still maintain great results.

I don't think the # of mains matters if we're seeing consistent results from Marss and Nairo.

All of these characters would suffer tremendously in terms of outlook if one or two of their best mains dropped them:
, , , , , , ,

What's more is that we have actively seen characters seem less good as time has gone on due partly to their best mains dropping them:
, ,

The same syndrome applies to Melee. If Hbox , Axe , Abate , and Amsa all dropped their mains... nobody would consider any of those characters to be particularly "good", in the same way that is underrated because literally nobody important plays him since Shroomed dropped him.

"If a character is high-tier but nobody mains them any more, are they actually high-tier?"

The answer is "Yes", since that character still retains all the tools they have, it's just nobody plays them. Speaking of Melee, a very similar thing is occurring to . He's unarguably a top 3 character, but Westballz is about the only person holding his meta together at this point since Mang0 backseated him for and PPMD rarely plays due to his health problems.

It may depend on what you categorize as "overrated", but ZSS is a probable top 5 contender that simply doesn't see as much play as you'd expect a character like that to get. Pit, an upper-mid tier, similarly sees virtually no play, but when he IS used by players like Earth or PlasticPoptart, they do pretty well.

 

[PK Gaming]

Here's some footage of 1.16 Bayonetta's aerial ABK

It's... not pretty

 

[UberMadman]

Here's some footage of 1.16 Bayonetta's aerial ABK

Holy ****, they killed her.

 

[Pancracio17]

Who was the one said a combo character that cant combo is worse designed than 1.1.5 bayo?
Well...

 

[Das Koopa]

Here's some footage of 1.16 Bayonetta's aerial ABK

It's... not pretty

You kidding? It's beautiful ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Well, hopefully people can mine into her neutral options the same way they did with Diddy. But... uh... yeah, she's probably relegated to being a mid-tier now.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Im actually pretty sad no one else was touched.

 

[LancerStaff]

Who was the one said a combo character that cant combo is worse designed than 1.1.5 bayo?
Well...

*sheepishly raises hand*

She's not looking so good between that and the increased SDI multiplier on Witch Twist.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

60 MB is pretty big for one character, probably a stage.engine change coming over too.

Speaking of stage.. how would the stage list look if Yoshi's Island from 3DS was ported to Wii U?

EDIT: You can't base an MU with a match of arguably the 2nd best player and someone else. A more comparable ZSS would probably be Bread.

yoshis island would be amazing, i miss that stage

 

[PK Gaming]

I still think Bayonetta will be a fairly solid character overall.

Her players will adapt like Diddy and Sheik mains did.

 

[UberMadman]

I'd like to point out that the first Witch Twist got a KBG decrease, making it easier to combo off of, but the second Witch Twist she uses got a KBG increase, making it harder to combo off of, likely to prevent her from killing off the top. That's really clever, actually.

 

[Strong-Arm]

These nerfs seem awful severe. Unlike Diddy and Sheik Bayo doesnt have a whole lot to fall back onto...

 

[ARGHETH]

These nerfs seem awful severe. Unlike Diddy and Sheik Bayo doesnt have a whole lot to fall back onto...

...you mean other than a F4 OOS option that still combos into stuff, Witch Time in general, and a good recovery?

 

[Ffamran]

I'll let Falco have a huge disjoint on d-tilt.

His kit isn't stupid otherwise, one small quirk on a hitbox doesn't change anything.

Now Bayo


No

I'd rather have a Melee-esque Dtilt. Brawl readjusted its growth because of the changes to fall speed and gravity affecting vertical knockback, except it went too far and added a sour-spot for the tip hitbox to an already short-ranged Dtilt. What used to potentially KO at ~100% in Melee ended up KO'ing at ~170% in Brawl. In Smash 4, the sweet-spot right at the base of his tail -- so basically a Roy sweet-spot --, KO's at 140% while the tail hitbox KO's at ~170% and the disjoint at ~200%. A while back, I checked its range using Mushroomy Kingdom's blocks broken up into 3 mini-blocks that I'm just going to refer to as units; Falco's Dtilt range is 5 units from his front foot and 7 from his back knee. 2 of the units are disjointed. Compared to Fox whose range is 4 units from his front foot and 6 units from his back knee. None of Fox's is disjointed. Without the disjoint, it would have slightly shorter range since Falco steps forward unlike Fox who just sweeps his tail. Killing the disjoint, but giving Falco a more reliable KO tool by making the rest of the hitboxes match the sweet-spot might work better for Falco. It shouldn't KO at 100% as 140% is pretty much fine since it's quick and has low recovery. 130% to 120% would be okay too.

Spacing because Dtilt doesn't have range anymore? Yeah... Jab, Ftilt, and Reflector. Problems: Jab and Ftilt. Jab functioning and not acting as hit confirm would be much better. That is one of the stupidest things about his move set. I don't know what the hell data his rapid jab has, but it's absolutely atrocious. Jab 2 to rapid jab doesn't link properly allowing people to hit back, jump out, or shield. Rapid jab itself is easy to get out and pushes people out quickly. Some characters can even hit back during rapid jab. Rapid jab finisher is fine, but it's stuck to his crap rapid jab. Greatest thing about rapid jab is that it ledge cancels... If Ftilt wasn't unsafe on-hit at low percents, that would be fix things. Easiest is adding some base knockback, but something more interesting would be neat like a Ftilt with 60 base and 30 growth. Right now, range is something like Reflector > Ftilt >= Dtilt > jab 1. Without a disjoint, Dtilt might match jab 1's range.

Landing Fair just needs to go. It's a crutch for some Falco players who rely on it being frame 1 and disjointed to get away with a move that shouldn't be used that close to the ground. Probably can shield stab too. It just needs to go.

Falco's already got other stupid **** in his kit: Up Smash, transcendent Side Smash, Nair, Fair, Bair, Falco Phantasm -- largest spike in the series --, U-throw, and B-throw alongside his ledge-cancelable rapid jab and Dtilt. Disjoint or not, that move was powerful in all games, but Brawl. I'd rather have Dtilt be stupid in different ways.

 

[Trifroze]

I don't think the # of mains matters if we're seeing consistent results from Marss and Nairo.

All of these characters would suffer tremendously in terms of outlook if one or two of their best mains dropped them:
, , , , , , ,

What's more is that we have actively seen characters seem less good as time has gone on due partly to their best mains dropping them:
, ,

The same syndrome applies to Melee. If Hbox , Axe , Abate , and Amsa all dropped their mains... nobody would consider any of those characters to be particularly "good", in the same way that is underrated because literally nobody important plays him since Shroomed dropped him.

"If a character is high-tier but nobody mains them any more, are they actually high-tier?"

The answer is "Yes", since that character still retains all the tools they have, it's just nobody plays them. Speaking of Melee, a very similar thing is occurring to . He's unarguably a top 3 character, but Westballz is about the only person holding his meta together at this point since Mang0 backseated him for and PPMD rarely plays due to his health problems.

It may depend on what you categorize as "overrated", but ZSS is a probable top 5 contender that simply doesn't see as much play as you'd expect a character like that to get. Pit, an upper-mid tier, similarly sees virtually no play, but when he IS used by players like Earth or PlasticPoptart, they do pretty well.

I'm by no means shrugging off the results of Nairo and Marss just on the basis that "they'd do similarly well with anyone". They prove that ZSS isn't only solo viable, but can actually win majors at this point in the meta. Yet, at the same time I do think there are probably 20 characters in the game that can do this given the same amount of dedication and development, and a similarly skilled player.

Another question to ask is: "If a character is high tier but a godlike player gets top results with them, are they actually high tier?" and the answer to that would also be yes. It doesn't make the character top tier, and what I'm arguing is that this might be the case for ZSS, and then with her relatively lacking results outside of those two players taken into account, it becomes even more possible.

Also regarding how much play ZSS sees, usage for her is actually considerably higher than good results with her. All bracket results result in top 15, and when you narrow it down to top 8 she falls to top 25. It's only big tournaments where she has good results, and that's because her two best players attend them.

There comes a point when theory loses to reality that consistently proves it wrong, and the result is that ZSS either isn't as good as people think, or she's just really difficult to utilize. I would like the latter to be true, but it's probably some of both.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

I'd rather have a Melee-esque Dtilt. Brawl readjusted its growth because of the changes to fall speed and gravity affecting vertical knockback, except it went too far and added a sour-spot for the tip hitbox to an already short-ranged Dtilt. What used to potentially KO at ~100% in Melee ended up KO'ing at ~170% in Brawl. In Smash 4, the sweet-spot right at the base of his tail -- so basically a Roy sweet-spot --, KO's at 140% while the tail hitbox KO's at ~170% and the disjoint at ~200%. A while back, I checked its range using Mushroomy Kingdom's blocks broken up into 3 mini-blocks that I'm just going to refer to as units; Falco's Dtilt range is 5 units from his front foot and 7 from his back knee. 2 of the units are disjointed. Compared to Fox whose range is 4 units from his front foot and 6 units from his back knee. None of Fox's is disjointed. Without the disjoint, it would have slightly shorter range since Falco steps forward unlike Fox who just sweeps his tail. Killing the disjoint, but giving Falco a more reliable KO tool by making the rest of the hitboxes match the sweet-spot might work better for Falco. It shouldn't KO at 100% as 140% is pretty much fine since it's quick and has low recovery. 130% to 120% would be okay too.

Spacing because Dtilt doesn't have range anymore? Yeah... Jab, Ftilt, and Reflector. Problems: Jab and Ftilt. Jab functioning and not acting as hit confirm would be much better. That is one of the stupidest things about his move set. I don't know what the hell data his rapid jab has, but it's absolutely atrocious. Jab 2 to rapid jab doesn't link properly allowing people to hit back, jump out, or shield. Rapid jab itself is easy to get out and pushes people out quickly. Some characters can even hit back during rapid jab. Rapid jab finisher is fine, but it's stuck to his crap rapid jab. Greatest thing about rapid jab is that it ledge cancels... If Ftilt wasn't unsafe on-hit at low percents, that would be fix things. Easiest is adding some base knockback, but something more interesting would be neat like a Ftilt with 60 base and 30 growth. Right now, range is something like Reflector > Ftilt >= Dtilt > jab 1. Without a disjoint, Dtilt might match jab 1's range.

Landing Fair just needs to go. It's a crutch for some Falco players who rely on it being frame 1 and disjointed to get away with a move that shouldn't be used that close to the ground. Probably can shield stab too. It just needs to go.

Falco's already got other stupid **** in his kit: Up Smash, transcendent Side Smash, Nair, Fair, Bair, Falco Phantasm -- largest spike in the series --, U-throw, and B-throw alongside his ledge-cancelable rapid jab and Dtilt. Disjoint or not, that move was powerful in all games, but Brawl. I'd rather have Dtilt be stupid in different ways.

I don't think anyone actually understands how broken Falco would be with decent mobility. Imagine if he had Mario's run/air speed

 

[UberMadman]

Falco complaints

Honestly, you're kind of acting like how people were earlier when they were complaining about how broken Mewtwo's moves were in a vacuum, except it's about your own character. Yes you're right that all of the aspects about Falco that you listed are amazing/stupid in a vacuum, but you're still playing a light character with terrible mobility/approach and a bad projectile, so just take them as they are because they certainly aren't breaking Falco. I mean my character has arguably the most stupidly broken Forward Smash in the entire game, but I take it because my jab doesn't freaking work. Yes I agree with you that Falco would be better off trading some of those ridiculously strong aspects for patching up some of his weaknesses in other areas, but that's probably not going to happen at this point.

TL;DR: If he ain't broke, don't nerf him.

 

[Game7a1]

maybe ? I don't remember him getting any positive changes other than removing the Oil Panic jank in doubles, even then whether he's bad or not is up to debate)

He got buffed for the most part with patches. F-tilt and D-tilt got stronger, Judge 6 (sort of) and Chef's pan (All versions) got bigger, and B-air got a landing lag decrease. They're not huge changes, but those small changes made him better than he was at launch.

 

[bc1910]

Well now we know why the patch was so small.

Expecting her mains to post new 0-death training mode combos with her a few hours after the patch a la MK mains, before realising these combos have little effect in a real match.

Not seeing her drop to mid-tier since presumably she will still have great damage output off Witch Twist (a tool that remains fundamentally broken) and practically no disadvantage state. Will end up between 10-15.

 

[zzmorg82]

Well now we know why the patch was so small.

Expecting her mains to post new 0-death training mode combos with her a few hours after the patch a la MK mains, before realising these combos have little effect in a real match.

Not seeing her drop to mid-tier since presumably she will still have great damage output off Witch Twist (a tool that remains fundamentally broken) and practically no disadvantage state. Will end up between 10-15.

So this leaves a opinion-based on who's number 1 now. This is interesting.