Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Y2Kay]

I keep seeing "footsies" and I know what they are, but I think people have different definitions of it.

What is your definition of "footsies?"

I always thought of footsies as using pokes in neutral to whiff punish your opponent and hopefully get into the advantage state.

Some people use the terms "footsies" and "neutral" interchangeably, instead of distinguishing footsies as a specific part of neutral.

I've also heard Trifroze argue that footsies don't occur in smash bros.

 

[Macedonian]

He may have a good MU spread but that could just make him another pit. Solid but no real advantage or great reason to play the charachter.

Also having bad matchups against the most used charachters in tournaments seems like a big deal to me

 

[BunbUn129]

Please don't underrate Meta Knight. The character is still damn good. His matchup spread is not bad and I'm not sure where this notion is coming from either. He loses to Diddy, Sheik, Ryu, Mario, maybe 1 more...where's the extensive list. He loses fewer matchups than ZSS or Ryu lol. Cut the hypberole; MK still has good matchup spread and he still has many of the tools that made him good in the first place. The worst top MK at the combos is placing the best after the patch, which isn't a coincidence. MK still has combos, he still has his really good edgeguarding, he still has great mixups and decent neutral options. Leo is still placing just as well in Mexico. Some MK mains were hit harder than others, but MK was not just a one-dimensional combo machine. This exaggeration and lamentation of Meta Knight as a 'mid tier' or 'barely scraping high tier' is hilarious. He was a legitimate contender for top 3 in the game before the patch. The character is still in the #10-15 range because you aren't a top 3 contender just with one limited percent death combo (Bayo's death combo percent is like 0-80, which is kinda the difference here) -- you have to possess real options and tools to succeed in a harsh top tier climate.

You're looking at the nerf in terms of the ladder combo. The up air nerf was a huge blow to MK because it hurts his overall combo potential significantly, even outside of ladder combos. The stairway combo was never a consistent kill option, especially at high level play. The old up air allowed Meta Knight to set-up air dodge read situations very effectively. Your opponent being sent up above you leaves you in a more favorable position than if they get launched diagonally. The 1% damage nerf is significant because it reduces the move's hitstun at lower percents, and the decreased damage adds up in the long run. The up air nerf forces Meta Knight to rely heavily on Shuttle Loop as his primary source of damage. Staling his main kill move is bad because he can't easily set-up into his other finishers.

The ladder was also a huge benefit to MK because it forced you to play neutral differently than in other MU's. Other characters had to give up stage control to him if they wanted to not risk getting killed early.

Meta Knight's biggest draw was his punish game as a whole, and it's significantly worse after the nerf.

It's worth mentioning MK's weight and physics make him highly susceptible to combos and KO's himself. This was not a major issue before (outside of the Sheik MU) because he could always make up for it by punishing you harder. As it stands now, most top tiers out-damage him (Ryu and Mario especially).

Meta Knight wins more than half of his MU's, but the important fact is that his losing MU's are all against common tourney picks and the best characters in the game. He still hard counters floaties, for example, but most of them aren't highly relevant.

 

[Megamang]

This is from a previous discussion, but Megaman has much better mobility than TL, especially in the zoning department. He has the best air accel, .1 to TL's .08. He falls faster, but can ascend to greater heights anyways because he gets to use aerials out of his up B. He can land back on rush for a boost, canceling aerial lag, and allowing followups if anyone tries to mess with Rush. Much like Sonic, he has no lag on his second bounce and can easily gimp you off the top with uairs if you try and join him in the sky.

TL's walk... what is threatening about his walk? Shield gets me out of jail pretty hard for almost everything, and spotdodging offers a pretty sizeable reward compared to its risk. Megaman can fire pellets while he walks, AND jump while firing them, including a backjump that makes pellets nigh unpunishable, especially for Bayonetta (the start of this discussion).

He also has metal blade; given tech skill is high enough he can DICIT his way flying across the stage with a hitbox in front of him, which literally confirms into every move he has. His dashgrab is actually almost as big as Tinks (lol) and his grab game is better IMO, the trade off being his kill throw isn't as good. This is relevant to mobility, because his 'burst' movement is strong vs Shield as he maneuvers around the stage... firing constantly.

TL's pluck is a big downside, wheras pulling out the metal blade has a reasonable FAF, a hitbox in front of megaman much faster, and the actual pull can confirm into kill moves.

It says a lot that the TL MU for Megaman is basically outmaneuvering him on the stage while Tink has greater reward. Tink does have advantages, but they aren't really as relevant vs Bayonetta. His disjoint isn't bigger than Witch Twists' disjoint, which is ridiculous and it makes me sad to say, but if you have to challenge it all you're basically SOL, although SDI upwards makes it better.

 

[Trifroze]

I always thought of footsies as using pokes in neutral to whiff punish your opponent and hopefully get into the advantage state.

Some people use the terms "footsies" and "neutral" interchangeably, instead of distinguishing footsies as a specific part of neutral.

I've also heard Trifroze argue that footsies don't occur in smash bros.

Not to the same extent as in SF anyway because literally every Smash character has better burst options than any character in SF due to dashgrabs, dash attacks, shorthops and being able jump again in the air (which is a big deal), there's no back and forth walking, and most characters move around much faster and in a less linear fashion. Neutral in Smash is a lot more chaotic than in SF; you enjoy your footsies for a while and then your opponent gets tired of it, runs up and grabs you before you can react. Then you likely realize you shouldn't focus on footsies as much as simply moving around and mixing up what you do. Much of Smash is also aerial, and the term "footsies" is supposed to only encompass ground game.

Not to say footsies doesn't occur in Smash but as an area of gameplay it's kind of drowned underneath a ton of more important concepts like mixups and zoning (which includes spacing people out on the ground, air and with projectiles, and it's relevant whether the opponents themselves are throwing out attacks or not). There is a reason "footsies" isn't used much in commentary - it's something that was developed for traditional fighting games (possibly even SF alone, not familiar with the origins), and Smash isn't a traditional fighting game. It has its own terms that describe its gameplay more accurately, and whenever people try to apply the term "footsies" to Smash it makes me feel like the community has some sort of a little brother syndrome.

 

[Megamang]

Which is why I said M2 doesn't play footsies, he just plays 'dominate the ground' except against characters with exceptional pokes.

As you said, characters in smash have super powerful tools. Its often in a MU that you can't really compete with their grounded poke, and you avoid it entirely. Mario shouldn't spend much time trying to 'footsie' ryu with his tilts, its just not worth it compared to coming in bair/dair swinging.

 

[|RK|]

How does Bayonetta fair against her own bullet climax? I ask because it seemed to work well enough in friendlies last night, but my opponent probably just didn't face many Kirbies that did that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Not to the same extent as in SF anyway because literally every Smash character has better burst options than any character in SF due to dashgrabs, dash attacks, shorthops and being able jump again in the air (which is a big deal), there's no back and forth walking, and most characters move around much faster and in a less linear fashion. Neutral in Smash is a lot more chaotic than in SF; you enjoy your footsies for a while and then your opponent gets tired of it, runs up and grabs you before you can react. Then you likely realize you shouldn't focus on footsies as much as simply moving around and mixing up what you do. Much of Smash is also aerial, and the term "footsies" is supposed to only encompass ground game.

Not to say footsies doesn't occur in Smash but as an area of gameplay it's kind of drowned underneath a ton of more important concepts like mixups and zoning (which includes spacing people out on the ground, air and with projectiles, and it's relevant whether the opponents themselves are throwing out attacks or not). There is a reason "footsies" isn't used much in commentary - it's something that was developed for traditional fighting games (possibly even SF alone, not familiar with the origins), and Smash isn't a traditional fighting game. It has its own terms that describe its gameplay more accurately, and whenever people try to apply the term "footsies" to Smash it makes me feel like the community has some sort of a little brother syndrome.

Marvel has footsies too.

Chaos and speed doesn't disqualify a game from having footsies.

And all Roy does in this game is play footsies with nair and dtilt until he sees a dash grab. Some chars pretty much never play footsies. It all depends on the char and the match.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Back to the whole operational definitions thing; no point in discussing footsies if we can't first define the term.

I've always come to understand footsies as the in-between of the neutral and the advantaged/disadvantaged state. Here, the approaching has already been done, but still a commitment is yet to be made by either player, as they play just outside of each others ideal ranges. I imagine good midrange characters such as mewtwo and swordies excel at footsies because of the respect they demand when in that state. The fact that the opposing marth has a relatively safe, relatively large hitbox that he can throw out forces you to respect his space and play his game.

Footsies isn't a character trait. It's a player trait since it's basically the art of getting the hit w/o getting hit. Some characters have better tools for it, doesn't mean they "play" footsies well.

And footsies isn't limited to the ground and doing back and forth walking; that's SF footsies. Footsies differ from game to game.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

How does Bayonetta fair against her own bullet climax? I ask because it seemed to work well enough in friendlies last night, but my opponent probably just didn't face many Kirbies that did that.

Kirby's copied Bullet Climax is much better than the original because he's so short. That makes it harder to duck underneath the shots, and Bayonetta is pretty tall when standing for that double whammy.

 

[Trifroze]

Chaos and speed doesn't disqualify a game from having footsies.

And all Roy does in this game is play footsies with nair and dtilt until he sees a dash grab. Some chars pretty much never play footsies. It all depends on the char and the match.

A chaotic neutral doesn't remove footsies, but it diminishes their prevalence. Just a question though, what's the benefit of using a borrowed term from a very different type of fighting game instead of using terms like zoning or outspacing? Different contexts, different terms, and more descriptive as well.

Marvel has footsies too.

This is relevant because I recall people questioning this in the same way I'm questioning footsies (their relevance, but more importantly as a term) in Smash which is much more different to any Capcom fighting game than MvC is to SF.

 

[|RK|]

Kirby's copied Bullet Climax is much better than the original because he's so short. That makes it harder to duck underneath the shots, and Bayonetta is pretty tall when standing for that double whammy.

Yeah, even her side B gets stuffed if he's shooting from the hands. Made the matchup fun, in an "I'm a terrible person" sense.

Well, that's good to know! What even are her options when I'm spamming?

 

[Emblem Lord]

A chaotic neutral doesn't remove footsies, but it diminishes their prevalence. Just a question though, what's the benefit of using a borrowed term from a very different type of fighting game instead of using terms like zoning or outspacing? Different contexts, different terms, and more descriptive as well.



This is relevant because I recall people questioning this in the same way I'm questioning footsies (their relevance, but more importantly as a term) in Smash which is much more different to any Capcom fighting game than MvC is to SF.

I mean...footsies is a subset of zoning. Its essentially the same **** honestly. Just generally when you say footsies you are mostly talking about mobility combined with normals or in this case A button aerials and tilts.

Footsies is also reactive and generally involves more counter play. Ex/ Sheik sees Ryu is doing an empty jump forward to close space. She anticipates he will land and do an utilt, so she walks up and does a d-tilt completely avoiding his hitbox and hitting his legs. That happens in less then 2 seconds, but ALOT happened.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

A chaotic neutral doesn't remove footsies, but it diminishes their prevalence. Just a question though, what's the benefit of using a borrowed term from a very different type of fighting game instead of using terms like zoning or outspacing? Different contexts, different terms, and more descriptive as well.

Different meanings bro.

Out spacing is effective space controlling. It's part of footsies, but doesn't go into the subtleties and mind games footsies also incorporates.

Zoning is a play style that's about controlling space. Villager, mega man, diddy Kong, sheik (ish), Rosalina, and others facilitate this play style well. This is also a part in footsies, but just a part of it.

Footsies is the whole strategy of hitting your opponent and not getting hit while in neutral positions.

 

[Aaron1997]

https://www.twitch.tv/preludetosmash/v/63757903?t=05h15m04s

For people that don't know, Trela has a Bidou Shulk but he's yet play it at a top level environment. At the time of this vod (apirl 30th) this was only DAY 2 of Trela playing Bidou Shulk. The Reason I i'm posting about this is because of Shulks "protential". I know with this protential stuff but if Trela is pulling all this stuff off with just 2 DAYS of XP imagine 2-3 months from now what he can be doing. This is probably a fluke that's only working because Trela is amazing but I just found this interesting that it could unlock Shulks so call Protential.

Also I know the quality is bad

Spoiler: Xenoblade Spoiler

If this ends becoming something big, this would make sense for Shulk in his game. In Xenoblade, The Monado was limited that it could only kill Animals and Mechons but later that limiter got removed. This would mirror smash where Shulk needs Bidou to remove the "limiter" to unlock Shulks "Hidden Protential"

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yeah, even her side B gets stuffed if he's shooting from the hands. Made the matchup fun, in an "I'm a terrible person" sense.

Well, that's good to know! What even are her options when I'm spamming?

Her crouch is low enough that she can duck under the shots at mid range, but it'll stuff dtilt and she can't crawl and Witch Time won't slow Kirby so it becomes a waiting game. I don't think you can keep the shots going indefinitely, so eventually she'll get an opening.

 

[Trifroze]

I mean...footsies is a subset of zoning. Its essentially the same **** honestly. Just generally when you say footsies you are mostly talking about mobility combined with normals or in this case A button aerials and tilts.

Footsies is also reactive and generally involves more counter play. Ex/ Sheik sees Ryu is doing an empty jump forward to close space. She anticipates he will land and do an utilt, so she walks up and does a d-tilt completely avoiding his hitbox and hitting his legs. That happens in less then 2 seconds, but ALOT happened.

Different meanings bro.

Out spacing is effective space controlling. It's part of footsies, but doesn't go into the subtleties and mind games footsies also incorporates.

Zoning is a play style that's about controlling space. Villager, mega man, diddy Kong, sheik (ish), Rosalina, and others facilitate this play style well. This is also a part in footsies, but just a part of it.

Footsies is the whole strategy of hitting your opponent and not getting hit while in neutral positions.

The problem to me is that the term originates from a game where you can walk back and forth on the ground baiting and punishing each other's reactions (which is what the term essentially is supposed to mean at its core), and now we try to apply it into a game where you can't walk backwards for instance, and walking in general isn't a great option in most situations. When the term is transitioned in this way it becomes unclear what encompasses as footsies and what doesn't in this new environment, and because the term wasn't made for this game, there shouldn't be a clear answer.

Is fox trotting forward and then backward, baiting out a response from the opponent and then punishing it, footsies? If so, bait and punish is already a generic term we have for that. Same with dashing forward, shorthopping backwards and punishing the opponent's reaction with a falling aerial. What about stuffing out an opponent's aerial approach on reaction with an aerial of your own? Does it change into something else if it's not on reaction but instead simple option coverage? Regardless of what it is, we have terms for both such as air to air / anti air and walling. Outspacing also works for both situations (since that's what happens). The case where you avoid an opponent's attack while doing an attack of your own is a bit more original, but at its core the particular Sheik vs Ryu example is just low profiling attack x with attack y. I'm not sure there's a term for pulling backwards with a move, causing the opponent to whiff their attack, and then coming out with your own hitbox (like raptor boost) though.

I'm still sort of left with the same q: is it necessary to adapt a traditional fighting game term into a game where the core mechanic that caused the term to be coined doesn't exist, rather than use/create more descriptive terms for specific situations more fitting to this game? I'm sure the footsies term can be applied to Smash if you want to, but I don't see it saving any confusion (unless I'm literally just not getting something everyone understands).

 

[|RK|]

Her crouch is low enough that she can duck under the shots at mid range, but it'll stuff dtilt and she can't crawl and Witch Time won't slow Kirby so it becomes a waiting game. I don't think you can keep the shots going indefinitely, so eventually she'll get an opening.

True. It makes copying a necessity in that MU, then. Thanks for the info!

 

[Emblem Lord]

The problem to me is that the term originates from a game where you can walk back and forth on the ground baiting and punishing each other's reactions (which is what the term essentially is supposed to mean at its core), and now we try to apply it into a game where you can't walk backwards for instance, and walking in general isn't a great option in most situations. When the term is transitioned in this way it becomes unclear what encompasses as footsies and what doesn't in this new environment, and because the term wasn't made for this game, there shouldn't be a clear answer.

Is fox trotting forward and then backward, baiting out a response from the opponent and then punishing it, footsies? If so, bait and punish is already a generic term we have for that. What about stuffing out an opponent's aerial approach on reaction with an aerial of your own? Does it change into something else if it's not on reaction but instead simple option coverage? Regardless of what it is, we have terms for both such as air to air and walling. Outspacing also works for both situations (since that's what happens). The case where you avoid an opponent's attack while doing an attack of your own is a bit more original, but at its core the particular Sheik vs Ryu example is just low profiling attack x with attack y. I'm not sure there's a term for pulling backwards with a move, causing the opponent to whiff their attack, and then coming out with your own hitbox (like raptor boost) though.

I'm still sort of left with the same q: is it necessary to adapt a traditional fighting game term into a game where the core mechanic that caused the term to be coined doesn't exist, rather than use/create more descriptive terms for specific situations more fitting to this game? I'm sure the footsies term can be applied to Smash if you want to, but I don't see it saving any confusion.

I mean it SEEMS like you are giving yourself an unnecessary headache.

You don't see me flipping out when you kids say things like "chip damage" or "frame trap" and completely butcher the meaning.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

The problem to me is that the term originates from a game where you can walk back and forth on the ground baiting and punishing each other's reactions (which is what the term essentially is supposed to mean at its core), and now we try to apply it into a game where you can't walk backwards for instance, and walking in general isn't a great option in most situations. When the term is transitioned in this way it becomes unclear what encompasses as footsies and what doesn't in this new environment, and because the term wasn't made for this game, there shouldn't be a clear answer.

Is fox trotting forward and then backward, baiting out a response from the opponent and then punishing it, footsies? If so, bait and punish is already a generic term we have for that. Same with dashing forward, shorthopping backwards and punishing the opponent's reaction with a falling aerial. What about stuffing out an opponent's aerial approach on reaction with an aerial of your own? Does it change into something else if it's not on reaction but instead simple option coverage? Regardless of what it is, we have terms for both such as air to air / anti air and walling. Outspacing also works for both situations (since that's what happens). The case where you avoid an opponent's attack while doing an attack of your own is a bit more original, but at its core the particular Sheik vs Ryu example is just low profiling attack x with attack y. I'm not sure there's a term for pulling backwards with a move, causing the opponent to whiff their attack, and then coming out with your own hitbox (like raptor boost) though.

I'm still sort of left with the same q: is it necessary to adapt a traditional fighting game term into a game where the core mechanic that caused the term to be coined doesn't exist, rather than use/create more descriptive terms for specific situations more fitting to this game? I'm sure the footsies term can be applied to Smash if you want to, but I don't see it saving any confusion (unless I'm literally just not getting something everyone understands).

Footsies isn't about walking back and forth and fighting purely on the ground anymore. The term evolved into something more general as different breeds of fighting games were born. i don't see a problem with its use as long as people have some understanding of it and not throw it around however they want to.

 

[Trifroze]

At least frame trap is universally applicable to any fighting game and is very much a binary term. Either something is a true link/combo, a frame trap, or escapeable/interruptable.

And I suppose terms can be somewhat loose. It's just that sometimes a term evolves separately in two different environments and develops two very different meanings and then people switching between the two environments get all kinds of confused (which I don't doubt is more or less half this topic when footsies are mentioned).

 

[Ninety]

I mean it SEEMS like you are giving yourself an unnecessary headache.

You don't see me flipping out when you kids say things like "chip damage" or "frame trap" and completely butcher the meaning.

I see what you're getting at, but in particular, what's inaccurate about the concept of frame traps when used in a Smash context?

 

[Megamang]

He is saying frame trap is a more applicable term.


Yea, its not a perfect fit, but it does work as a blanket description for lots of the things you described. Someone who is able to use their low profile, hurtbox shifting, movement options is definitely performing a type of footsies. I totally feel commentators overuse it. ("Look at Trela's footsies" while he full hops a nair in someones face. With a Ryu in a game its inevitable the casters will say footsies like 5 times)

Speaking of Bidou, perfect pivoting backwards is essentially a backdash, and I find it way more useful than PP forward in many situations, especially in neutral.

 

[Ulevo]

Yeah sure.

Neutral

Both characters tend to rely on a ground based neutral. Meta has strong burst movement with dash attack and dash grab which leads to solid conversions. Ryu is more based on a mix of diff options, playing around what his opponent does then going for grabs or closing in when his opponent hesitates. MK cant really challenge Ryu air to ground. Its not really worth it in terms of risk vs reward, especially when Ryu has strong AA options. MK's tilts can lead to grabs or solid advantage by popping him in the air, but Ryu generally outranges and outdamages MKs pokes with his own. Since MK doesnt hae reliable death conversions off single strat hits or grabs he has to play that much more cautious. Hitting a random Focus with dash attack could spell his demise as Ryu has some easy 0 to death conversions on MK, as shown by Trela vs Tyrant recently. This aspect of the match definitely favors Ryu. He hits harder and attacks nearly as fast and is just as safe overall. Playing a ground game plays into Ryu's hands and MK doesnt have the airspeed or range to really juke Ryu with an aeriel based footsie gameplan.

Advantage

Ryu is absolutely deadly when he gets a conversion. Ryu has low percent to death conversions from not just FA, but also falling fair which is a common space control tactic of Ryu players. Utilt lock is also very deadly vs MK as well. Even if it doesnt lead to a kill, its an easy way to rack up damage. Add in MK's light weight and fast faller speed, and you have a recipe for a character that can be taken out quickly if they make a mistake or their opponent guess right in the neutral. MK generally has an easier time converting thanks to burst options with dash attack and dash grab, but his conversion is generally not deadly. MK is going to get more out of trap situations namely edgegaurding and landing traps. So MK has less direct reward then Ryu, but his trap game and edgeguarding are top notch.

Disadvantage

Ryu is solid in dealing with this thanks to wavebounce and b-reverse FA, but not anywhere near MK's level on terms of getting out of bad non-combo situations. Ryu also has linear recovery and can intercepted if the opponent plays it right. MK has far better and trickier recovery. MK also has his down b to act as a kind of teleport which can quickly move him out of harms way and onto the ground or ledge. But the trade off is that due to his weight he will die early and as a fast faller he is subject to much more heinous and deadly combos. This kind of mitigates the strong options he has in non-combo situations, especially since his neutral is a bit linear and can be risky vs Ryu. This means MK is generally going to get hit more so then Ryu. Which means Ryu is going to be getting REAL combos and MK's solid disadvantage matters alot less.


Everything comes back to the neutral and the fact that MK can only threaten with options that are actually riskier for HIMSELF, more so than they are for Ryu. MK has strong edgegaurding, but he has to get Ryu offstage first. Besides that Ryu generally takes it. Hits harder, better combos, takes more punishment, better, safer and far more consistent kill confirms. Before MK could bank on a stray hit turning into a kill. He cant do that anymore. Instead he has to play perfect and then still worry about dying at 50% to raged Ryu.

Ulevo did you disagree because....I don't see how this isn't Ryu's fight now.

I am unsure how this fight goes when the match up is played properly. Could be even. Meta Knight's movement options play a very important role because Ryu is required to commit to actions and spacing these out with perfect pivots and trots is easy, which is something Tyrant fails to do. Tyrant's performance was lackluster, and while I think he is likely the best Meta Knight right now he is far from the character's potential. He has poor movement, his punishes are very sub optimal and safe, and while he has the best overall neutral of high level Meta Knight's he had a very bad habbit of randomly fishing with Shuttle Loop or Dimensional Cape when the risk is too high or the reward too low. I am not going to say either way for now but I do not think Tyrant vs Trela was a good demonstration.

MK is generally perceived as a high tier character, but I disagree. He is a mid tier character in theory and in his match-up spread. The only top/high-tier characters he beats are Villager, Rosalina, Ness and Luigi, and the former 2 are uncommon. The rest of his relevant match-ups are either even (Greninja, Ike, Corrin, Pikachu) or losing (Sheik, Ryu, ZSS, Fox, Diddy, Mario, Mewtwo, Sonic, Bayonetta, Cloud, and others I may forget).

He only stands as a outlier from other mid-tiers because he still has exceptional talent backing him. People put too much weight in results and placements and then conclude MK is a high or even top tier character.

Prominent Meta Knight mains suspected Luigi was likely favored even pre-patch. I do not see how Meta Knight versus Pikachu is even, particularly with ESAM losing to sub par Meta Knights. And saying he outright loses to Sheik, Zero Suit, Mario, Mewtwo, and Cloud given his strengths in each of these match ups is crazy.

You're looking at the nerf in terms of the ladder combo. The up air nerf was a huge blow to MK because it hurts his overall combo potential significantly, even outside of ladder combos. The stairway combo was never a consistent kill option, especially at high level play. The old up air allowed Meta Knight to set-up air dodge read situations very effectively. Your opponent being sent up above you leaves you in a more favorable position than if they get launched diagonally. The 1% damage nerf is significant because it reduces the move's hitstun at lower percents, and the decreased damage adds up in the long run. The up air nerf forces Meta Knight to rely heavily on Shuttle Loop as his primary source of damage. Staling his main kill move is bad because he can't easily set-up into his other finishers.

The ladder was also a huge benefit to MK because it forced you to play neutral differently than in other MU's. Other characters had to give up stage control to him if they wanted to not risk getting killed early.

Meta Knight's biggest draw was his punish game as a whole, and it's significantly worse after the nerf.

It's worth mentioning MK's weight and physics make him highly susceptible to combos and KO's himself. This was not a major issue before (outside of the Sheik MU) because he could always make up for it by punishing you harder. As it stands now, most top tiers out-damage him (Ryu and Mario especially).

Meta Knight wins more than half of his MU's, but the important fact is that his losing MU's are all against common tourney picks and the best characters in the game. He still hard counters floaties, for example, but most of them aren't highly relevant.

The 1% damage nerf and how it affects hit stun is not that bad. You are still able to chain up airs fine for consistent damage as long as you know the proper %. I have also labbed the % difference for kill confirms if the move is staled versus if it is fresh and it is honestly not a big difference.

Mario does not out damage Meta Knight on a per confirm basis on average.

I really think his spread is much better than you are giving credit.

 

[bc1910]

I see what you're getting at, but in particular, what's inaccurate about the concept of frame traps when used in a Smash context?

I'm not EL, but nothing's wrong with frame traps in the context of Smash. It's just that people don't know the meaning.

A frame trap is essentially a confirm. So as an example. when people say that DK's jab "frame traps" into his grab, that's not true. It's a tight link but the opponent is able to roll, spotdodge or jab themselves if their jab and fall speed are fast enough. I think this is what was meant by "butchering" the definition.

To use the example I know best, a true frame trap would be something like Greninja Dtilt to buffered SH Fair at around 110% on a character with a f3 airdodge. You have 2 frames to input an action after the Dtilt hitstun ends and before the Fair comes out. You can airdodge, but as the dodge doesn't start until the 3rd frame it gets trapped. You can jump, but with only a couple of frames you will get caught by Fair in your jump startup. You can attack but again, the fastest aerials are f3 and you will get caught during your attack startup.

This is a true frame trap. Most opponents have no option to escape the Fair. If you're fighting someone with a f2 airdodge, you need to get them to a slightly higher percent, but the trap still works (they will only have one frame to escape). Finally at the highest percents this stops being a frame trap and becomes a true combo.

In terms of 50/50s you can say that they are a frame trap for one option but not the other. So with Sheik's Dthrow Uair, you could trap anything except airdodging, but since airdodging allowed the opponent to escape it wasn't a true frame trap. In the simplest terms, it was a frame trap vs jumping or attacking. This is usually what is meant by a true 50/50 in Smash terms.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

I'm not EL, but nothing's wrong with frame traps in the context of Smash. It's just that people don't know the meaning.

A frame trap is essentially a confirm. So as an example. when people say that DK's jab "frame traps" into his grab, that's not true. It's a tight link but the opponent is able to roll, spotdodge or jab themselves if their jab and fall speed are fast enough. I think this is what was meant by "butchering" the definition.

To use the example I know best, a true frame trap would be something like Greninja Dtilt to buffered SH Fair at around 110% on a character with a f3 airdodge. You have 2 frames to input an action after the Dtilt hitstun ends and before the Fair comes out. You can airdodge, but as the dodge doesn't start until the 3rd frame it gets trapped. You can jump, but with only a couple of frames you will get caught by Fair in your jump startup. You can attack but again, the fastest aerials are f3 and you will get caught during your attack startup.

This is a true frame trap. Most opponents have no option to escape the Fair. If you're fighting someone with a f2 airdodge, you need to get them to a slightly higher percent, but the trap still works (they will only have one frame to escape). Finally at the highest percents this stops being a frame trap and becomes a true combo.

In terms of 50/50s you can say that they are a frame trap for one option but not the other. So with Sheik's Dthrow Uair, you could trap anything except airdodging, but since airdodging allowed the opponent to escape it wasn't a true frame trap. In the simplest terms, it was a frame trap vs jumping or attacking. This is usually what is meant by a true 50/50 in Smash terms.

*cough*littlemacsnairisframe2*cough*
that aside I still consider things like this frame traps

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm not EL, but nothing's wrong with frame traps in the context of Smash. It's just that people don't know the meaning.

A frame trap is essentially a confirm. So as an example. when people say that DK's jab "frame traps" into his grab, that's not true. It's a tight link but the opponent is able to roll, spotdodge or jab themselves if their jab and fall speed are fast enough. I think this is what was meant by "butchering" the definition.

To use the example I know best, a true frame trap would be something like Greninja Dtilt to buffered SH Fair at around 110% on a character with a f3 airdodge. You have 2 frames to input an action after the Dtilt hitstun ends and before the Fair comes out. You can airdodge, but as the dodge doesn't start until the 3rd frame it gets trapped. You can jump, but with only a couple of frames you will get caught by Fair in your jump startup. You can attack but again, the fastest aerials are f3 and you will get caught during your attack startup.

This is a true frame trap. Most opponents have no option to escape the Fair. If you're fighting someone with a f2 airdodge, you need to get them to a slightly higher percent, but the trap still works (they will only have one frame to escape). Finally at the highest percents this stops being a frame trap and becomes a true combo.

In terms of 50/50s you can say that they are a frame trap for one option but not the other. So with Sheik's Dthrow Uair, you could trap anything except airdodging, but since airdodging allowed the opponent to escape it wasn't a true frame trap. In the simplest terms, it was a frame trap vs jumping or attacking. This is usually what is meant by a true 50/50 in Smash terms.

Yeah basically. A sequence of offensive actions where you need to take a specific defensive action to not get hurt.

A basic example is a sh nair from Marth into jab. Marth does not have frame advantage, but because of his spacing and the jab start up he has created a trap/pressure situation. His opponent must block or roll. And doing either of those things do not put Marth in danger. Trying to shield grab or JC from shield means the opponent eats the jab.

Frame traps in traditional fighters involve throwing out a move that gives frame advantage on block, then another attack with enough of a gap in frames, such that if your opponent presses a button their attack STARTS but does NOT become active. Instead they would get stuffed by your next button press and be open to a combo.

So in the context of smash, the numbers are different but the application is similar. You are creating a sequence to shut down certain options when your opponent is on defense (after you hit them or they block something and you are still able to pressure, but that is char dependent), while still maintaining control.

BTW one of the biggest things that effect balance in smash is that not every char has these types of option coverage/trap sequences. Compare Melee Marth to Melee Kirby. Marth is playing a completely different game then Kirby is. It's pretty ****ing sad when you think about it.

 

[Jamurai]

Late to the MK discussion. But basically my opinion is he is obviously much worse off, but the extent to which this is the case is difficult to say.

Trashing a bait and (whiff-)punish character's main combo/damage-racking move is a huge deal for sure. It's important to note that it's not just the kill combo that he lost. For examples, Uair now links into Shuttle Loop at kill % less reliably (I thought this wasn't the case but it is so I'm sad), Uair > Bair lock should basically never happen, SHFF Uair damage racking at early %s is much different and more difficult.

His damage racking is now just alright, he has always been a low-damage-per-hit character, now he's somewhat similar to Sheik (but with a true combo game which is significantly worse) where he has to use elaborate strings and traps to do it well, or play with them offstage and on the ledge. Footstool stuff has some potential, it was outclassed before by how easy Uair > Bair locks were, but now it's a bit more attractive to learn. Ito recognises this, he mentioned it on the boards a while ago.

It's also important to use MK's excellent ground movement more than ever to get more conversions. Perfect pivots, dance trotting, U-turns, you name it. He still has his high kill power as well which is a great asset in a game where rage is a thing. Rage still benefits him a lot, for example making Ftilt kill at the edge and giving Bair ludicrous power.

His MU spread is kinda hard to say, top tiers are a lot harder now he has no trump card; Diddy, Sonic and Fox in particular are annoying as **** now imo. He still trashes Rosa (technically even harder) but that would-be top level niche is taken by the new boy Cloud who outclasses him by being easier to secondary/play. He probably has a high tier MU spread but as someone mentioned earlier that's not everything you need, the Pit comparison works kinda well if you take out his Rosa MU.

He's clearly still pretty good overall but considering how close the power levels are in this game (except maybe like Bayo and Puff) I wouldn't be surprised if he dropped 15 or 20 places from where the majority thought he was before, ie. top 5. I'm not confident about his solo viability but I'm willing to work to show his limits. On a personal note I'm improving all the time and hope to take some names over the next year or so.

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My definition of footsies is whatever Juicebox says in his (rightly so) oft-linked video.

 

[Ulevo]

Late to the MK discussion. But basically my opinion is he is obviously much worse off, but the extent to which this is the case is difficult to say.

Trashing a bait and (whiff-)punish character's main combo/damage-racking move is a huge deal for sure. It's important to note that it's not just the kill combo that he lost. For examples, Uair now links into Shuttle Loop at kill % less reliably (I thought this wasn't the case but it is so I'm sad), Uair > Bair lock should basically never happen, SHFF Uair damage racking at early %s is much different and more difficult.

Up air to back air lock is still relatively as viable as before. It is still not going to work on players who tech, but it still works from the 16-22% range which means characters that can be set up in this range are still susceptible.

His damage racking is now just alright, he has always been a low-damage-per-hit character, now he's somewhat similar to Sheik (but with a true combo game which is significantly worse) where he has to use elaborate strings and traps to do it well, or play with them offstage and on the ledge. Footstool stuff has some potential, it was outclassed before by how easy Uair > Bair locks were, but now it's a bit more attractive to learn. Ito recognises this, he mentioned it on the boards a while ago.

I think footstool options are not very valuable unless you are on platform layouts. Dash attack, up air, footstool onto a platform will work consistently because you can follow their option with Mach Tornado for reliable damage without worrying about their DI or whether you will fast fall in a tight window. I will admit they vary from character to character and they might be situationally useful amongst the roster.

Saying Meta Knight's combo game is significantly worse than Sheik's is an overstatement. Meta Knight should be doing minimum 28% ~ on confirms from 0% with the potential for a lot more against a lot of characters at low mid %.

His MU spread is kinda hard to say, top tiers are a lot harder now he has no trump card; Diddy, Sonic and Fox in particular are annoying as **** now imo. He still trashes Rosa (technically even harder) but that would-be top level niche is taken by the new boy Cloud who outclasses him by being easier to secondary/play. He probably has a high tier MU spread but as someone mentioned earlier that's not everything you need, the Pit comparison works kinda well if you take out his Rosa MU.

He's clearly still pretty good overall but considering how close the power levels are in this game (except maybe like Bayo and Puff) I wouldn't be surprised if he dropped 15 or 20 places from where the majority thought he was before, ie. top 5. I'm not confident about his solo viability but I'm willing to work to show his limits.

I have not done the tests yet but I feel Rosa may have a better match up than previous. This is because if Meta Knight gets a kill confirm early, he may not be able to repeat it because the % requirement is so low and he will not have used enough moves to eliminate the up airs from the stale move que. This may allow Rosalina to air dodge out of the combo. This is primarily because of the 1% nerf to up air. Previously she would die both stocks in my experience, where now Rosalina has been able to get out of up airs a few times. This is not for sure until I test it but it seems to be the case.

I really do not think comparing Meta Knight to Pit is appropriate at all because even if Pit's match ups are relatively even he does not have a specific niche in his design that allows him to occassionally clutch out games which, over the course of the tournament, will increase your odds of success. Up air, Shuttle Loop and forward smash are still very dangerous and will steal games away at a moments notice while Pit has to fight for every kill unless he gets an Electroshock near the ledge.

I think he is solo viable most likely, but the tier shift for the rest of the cast was rather drastic so it is hard to say. Saying he is 20 spots worse is really pushing it.

 

[BunbUn129]

The Mario MU by itself is looking bad enough to make MK's solo-viability questionable.

Tyrant tried solo MK (mostly) at Fresh Saga and that went wonderfully. Having to use his Sheik and Diddy secondaries when he would rarely do so before doesn't scream solo-viable.

Leo is a phenomenal player and even then he needs to bust out his Cloud secondary, because he's bigger, faster, and stronger too.

 

[Ulevo]

The Mario MU by itself is looking bad enough to make MK's solo-viability questionable.

Tyrant tried solo MK (mostly) at Fresh Saga and that went wonderfully. Having to use his Sheik and Diddy secondaries when he would rarely do so before doesn't scream solo-viable.

Leo is a phenomenal player and even then he needs to bust out his Cloud secondary, because he's bigger, faster, and stronger too.

I really do not buy this notion that Meta Knight versus Mario is not close to even. I would enjoy an explanation on this.

What matches did Tyrant use these secondaries in. I know he went Sheik versus VoiD, which might have been for a variety of reasons other than the match up advantage given that Tyrant has beaten him plenty of times before and was doing reasonably well.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

, because he's bigger, faster, and stronger too.

He's the first member of the DK crew?

 

[C0rvus]

I don't think Meta Knight has any matchups that are bad enough to eliminate him from solo viability. That said, there are enough of them that if we're talking relative viability, Meta Knight is quite a bit lower than before. Cloud, Sonic, Fox, Sheik, Mario, Bayonetta, Diddy, are all close to even but generally sway away from MK's favor. Sheik and Sonic are kinda pressing MUs, and struggling with Mario is a big hit to a character's tournament presence.

Seriously, characters that lose to one of the most common tournament characters tend to struggle in bracket (Hey you, Pikachu!) especially since the character is so easy to pick up and play. Everyone has a pocket Mario. Fortunately for Meta Knight, it might not even be a loss, and if it is, it's slight. It's hard for me to tell, since as a player I struggle against Mario in general.

 

[BunbUn129]

I really do not buy this notion that Meta Knight versus Mario is not close to even. I would enjoy an explanation on this.

What matches did Tyrant use these secondaries in. I know he went Sheik versus VoiD, which might have been for a variety of reasons other than the match up advantage given that Tyrant has beaten him plenty of times before and was doing reasonably well.

The Mario MU was already relatively even in 1.1.4, so it's perfectly reasonable that it is losing for MK considering his loss of the ladder. MK being a fast faller who lacks a frame-3 aerial makes him highly susceptible to Mario's combos. It's not unusual for MK to be taken from 0-60% in that MU. With the reduced damage on uair and MK's worsened combo potential at mid-percents, Mario's damage racking ability is generally more reliable. It was 50-50 before because Mario had better tools to win neutral but lost in terms of reward and KOing, but now he gains more reliable reward off of his set-ups.

However, MK still wins overall in the KOing department, so he will often have the chance to live long and make use of rage. Theory isn't in MK's favor, and results aren't either, as Tyrant opts for his Diddy secondary in that MU, and Ito got 3-0'd by Zenyou last they played.

At Fresh Saga, Tyrant went all MK aside from the LF set against Void. He didn't use Diddy because he didn't encounter the Mario MU (at least not in top 32). And why he didn't use Diddy against Trela beats me.

It's very likely MK's toughest MU, but of course, it isn't nearly as difficult as 1.1.4 Sheik. 55-45 or 60-40.

C0rvus Cloud is also pretty similar to Mario in that he's highly common as well.

 

[r_greening1]

I keep seeing "footsies" and I know what they are, but I think people have different definitions of it.

What is your definition of "footsies?"

Footsies is such a broad concept that I think it's better to have explanations of what it is and what it encompasses, rather than to slap a rigid, generic definition onto it.

In regards to what it is, I personally like Juicebox's video on it.

 

[Charoite]

Holy **** people some of you are talking like if metaknight was downgraded to some mid tier character, if he loses hard to , then i wouldn't call him a high tier character, which Metaknight i believe is and saying that he is dropping 20 places in the tier list is hyperbole that would put him at half of list which is silly, the character is not as strong and he is dropping a few places that is fair but he didn't got gutted like greninja before the buffs, some of the Metaknight mains are looking like the luigi mains post nerf.

 

[C0rvus]

I mean, I don't think it's unreasonable to think he might be mid tier. Consider that people around here are so attached to the idea of high vs low tier, that they cram like 25-30 characters into high tier. That's half the roster, and it's not how that works. At the moment, high tier is a very competitive environment, and falling behind even in the arguably small manner that MK has, can mean being bumped out of it. Not that it really means too much; the character can still compete. The difference between high tier and upper mid is pretty arbitrary, and calling a character by the "wrong tier" doesn't make them worse.

 

[ARISTOS]

I mean, I don't think it's unreasonable to think he might be mid tier. Consider that people around here are so attached to the idea of high vs low tier, that they cram like 25-30 characters into high tier. That's half the roster, and it's not how that works. At the moment, high tier is a very competitive environment, and falling behind even in the arguably small manner that MK has, can mean being bumped out of it. Not that it really means too much; the character can still compete. The difference between high tier and upper mid is pretty arbitrary, and calling a character by the "wrong tier" doesn't make them worse.

What is the definition of a high vs a mid tier? We haven't set up any definitions of the term. If we decree high tier as "characters that with the proper representation can get top 8 at large tournaments" then there might just be 25-30 characters in there. If we're talking top 8 at supernationals, our rankings become a lot tighter.

I don't know where lies but my opinion of him falls the more I play and watch him.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Why is it that whenever we talk about a character's tier placement, it devolves into a discussion of the semantics of tiers? Again, should we not have already established or operational definitions after 300 pages?

 

[BunbUn129]

Holy **** people some of you are talking like if metaknight was downgraded to some mid tier character, if he loses hard to , then i wouldn't call him a high tier character, which Metaknight i believe is and saying that he is dropping 20 places in the tier list is hyperbole that would put him at half of list which is silly, the character is not as strong and he is dropping a few places that is fair but he didn't got gutted like greninja before the buffs, some of the Metaknight mains are looking like the luigi mains post nerf.

Meta Knight doesn't get completely trashed in any of those MU's. He still loses them, though Sonic can be argued to be even.

This raises an important question: is it better to have only one -2/3 match-up, or several -1's? MK traded his hard-counter for several soft-counters. Dabuz mentioned this question in regards to his own MU-based tier list.

MK still wins 70-80% of his MU's. But the 20-30% that are even/losing MU's are all against top/high tiers, ie the characters MK is going to face most frequently in bracket, ie you're not going to have a good time if you lose to these characters. All those characters you listed are common to varying degrees, excluding Ryu. Who honestly cares if he beats most mid- and low-tiers when such characters aren't highly relevant?

What's that? MK can 0-death floaties? LULZ 2 OP 4 ME. If only Kirby and co. were more dominant.

Top MK's (Leo and Tyrant specifically) are using secondaries to get out of rough situations when they rarely did so pre-patch. MK being a mid-tier fits the context. Please note that I am not saying MK is a mid-tier and you're wrong if you disagree. All I'm saying is that it is not unreasonable for one to think he is a mid-tier. It's fine if you think he's a high-tier. Both arguments can be justified.