Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Djent]

In other news, iiGGY just beat Mew^2 with after losing with Rosa. This is a bit discouraging, as this was one MU several people here (plausibly) theorized is OK for Mewtwo. It could be a fluke, but it's important to pay attention to this kind of stuff in the long run.

 

[Megamang]

I'd also like to say I see Palutena as above bottom 10. Her uair is solid at closing out stocks, and she has a reasonable setup into it with her grab game... and her grab itself is pretty solid due to her quickness; it is also supplemented by her invincible dash attack, as it beats a LOT of buttons it is quite useful for conditioning shielding when palutena is running at you. And she runs really quick. Her aerials in general are all great for their class, fair is one of my favorite moves. And her grab game is one that gets stronger with staleness, so it isn't really a problem her dthrow is there for damage racking and also setting up kills.

I want to clarify, Wario isn't a bad Megaman matchup because he can eat the saw, its just an annoying little thing he has in the matchup. Mega still zones him well with pellets, leaf shield, and aerials. Also, when diagonal down metal blade would usually confirm into a utilt for a kill, if Wario eats it we can utilt him in the lag from eating it and confirm the kill anyways!

When Wario eats your projectile, the question is 'what next?' for Megaman and I assume Villager, the answer is continue zoning unaffected.


EDIT: Bayonetta and Mewtwo

Mewtwo has always been a character which must specialize in matchups more than most anyone. Some MUs he is a tilting zoning machine, others a combo character, others his mobility combined with good airdodge and fair... im not saying im a mewtwo expert by any means, but I have heard here he plays drastically different in his different MUs. Bayonetta probably approaches Mewtwo much the same as her other MUs, of course while avoiding some MU specific things, but her gameplan isn't as changed as Mewtwo's when they face off. This is to say, the Bayonetta MU is more 'developed' than the Mewtwo matchup, in terms of understanding how to approach it. We theorize M2 is good because he keeps her out, has a strong projectile, good mobility, and a grab/throw game that works both to rack up damage and to kill. But the specifics are far from ironed out. I think Mewtwo will still prove to be a solid pick against Bayonetta.

The matchup is probably really volatile anyways, since Witch Time is gonna smash a light character like Mewtwo really really early. Actually, that might be a problem in the MU, depending on how early he dies to fthrow, dair, and especially bair.

 

[M]

I've won tournaments with this character before and my region/most of Australia in general would agree she's better than most take her for. Everyone tends to look at her moveset as a whole rather than pointing out how amazing and meta-building a few of them in particular are alone. Fair is a ridiculously fast good range poke that deals 8% and can confirm into her grabs. Bair/dash attack invincibility allow her to outright ignore a lot of meaty hitboxes (I believe she has very little trouble dealing with Luma, swords). Her dash attack is something essentially no character can land on safely, and her movement is solid to back it up. Her tilts might be awful and her specials very situational, but you'd be hard pressed to find that many characters that utilize their entire moveset anyway.

Certainly not top tier, and I doubt mid as well. But I would not put her at the bottom, she has some really really strong niche options.

-my 2c while I'm at work. lol

 

[Dinoman96]

For all my complaints regarding her, Palutena's probably still ahead of characters like Jigglypuff, Default Brawler and Zelda.

I just...find her really underwhelming and boring to play with her default kit. I just wish Super Speed and Lightweight were her defaults, but alas.

 

[LancerStaff]

What are Palutena's notable matchups?

 

[Deleted member]

For all my complaints regarding her, Palutena probably still ahead of characters like Jigglypuff, Default Brawler and Zelda.

I just...find her really underwhelming and boring to play with her default kit. I just wish Super Speed and Lightweight were her defaults, but alas.

I'd honestly consider her better than characters like , and (erring on the last one, but Palu has much more results than Zard) who are all ranked higher than her on the 4BR tier list but that's just my two cents.

What are Palutena's notable matchups?

Villager, arguably.

 

[Megamang]

Palutena is actually pretty close to even for megaman, or at least she forces him to play more differently than almost anyone and is a good CP for changing the pace of a set.

I actually don't think its hard to find a character that utilizes their whole moveset though, @M. Megaman will use pretty much all his moves in a match, dsmash being the least likely to be utilized but it is still his strongest move and works as both a punish and a move to finish blockstrings with to break shields. Bayonetta, my secondary, also has a pretty reasonable use for every move. I guess you could argue her Ftilt isn't that integral to her gameplan, but she appreciates it and can find niche uses for it on not-so-rare occasion, like out of a pivot to confirm a nice chunk of damage on an enclosing enemy.

I actually can't think of many characters I play that don't have a usage for almost all of their moves. Palutena definitely has a functional gameplan without her tilts, but it would be really nice and add a good layer of functionality and optimizability if she had a quick set of staff pokes. Maybe if she simply had a longer range, slightly stronger staff poke for her ftilt, it would usable... Hell, most characters have such a solid poke with their Dtilt, I could tell Prince Ramin needed that when he and M2K just stood there looking at eachother (cloud lacks a safe grounded poke as well... thank god.)

 

[BananaBake]

Villager, arguably.

As before with Wario, is it the zoning? She has a decent reflect that lasts awhile, and all projectiles of Villagers get reflected, so she can gradually close in. The reflect pokes shields no matter what, so why?

EDIT: Did you mean it was good for her?

 

[Megamang]

Yea, the constant reflectbox that leaves her relatively free to move and close space is really nice against any projectile character.

 

[BananaBake]

Yea, the constant reflectbox that leaves her relatively free to move and close space is really nice against any projectile character.

Got it, thanks dude

 

[FallofBrawl]

Among the super underrated character like , I think is also one of them as well.

What do you guys think of Sol's Sheik/Mac MU analysis?

Random: I've never viewed Megaman's leaf shield as an actual projectile (maybe in some extreme cases), I always thought it always functioned as a 2-frame abuser and a guarantee into footstool offstage>

 

[M]

I actually can't think of many characters I play that don't have a usage for almost all of their moves. Palutena definitely has a functional gameplan without her tilts, but it would be really nice and add a good layer of functionality and optimizability if she had a quick set of staff pokes. Maybe if she simply had a longer range, slightly stronger staff poke for her ftilt, it would usable... Hell, most characters have such a solid poke with their Dtilt, I could tell Prince Ramin needed that when he and M2K just stood there looking at eachother (cloud lacks a safe grounded poke as well... thank god.)

Her jab 1 while not being as fast as your typical jabs, is really good for her poke game. It's deceptively large, confirms into her grab at varying %s and can snuff out short range aerials (though not optimal). Her jab 1 is sorta the mid point between other characters jabs and ftilts.

 

[Solfiner]

I also need to point out how annoying a platform cancelling Palutena can be. I'd say her tilts are her biggest weakness, but otherwise she's really slept on.

 

[BananaBake]

Among the super underrated character like , I think is also one of them as well.

What do you guys think of Sol's Sheik/Mac MU analysis?

Mac is pretty difficult to play. It involves being VERY patient and baiting the opponent, as the aggressive play style the FG n00bs of today use is almost too easy to read and punish. Nearly everyone gets a free recovery in this game, and can sometimes mix it up, but Little Mac has the worst recovery in the entire game, due to the poor distance, and it being as easy to punish as a passive two-year-old. even slight knockback from a tilt can cost Mac the stock. A good Mac needs to be able to bait and punish without being baited and punished himself. His Utilt was buffed, and right now perfect pivot Utilt is probably his best approach. Mac has almost zero way to deal with projectiles, so he gets zoned out with ease. Playing mac at high levels like Sol does requires great skill and the patience of a dead rock.

 

[Nobie]

In other news, iiGGY just beat Mew^2 with after losing with Rosa. This is a bit discouraging, as this was one MU several people here (plausibly) theorized is OK for Mewtwo. It could be a fluke, but it's important to pay attention to this kind of stuff in the long run.

I got to play a bit of the Mewtwo vs. Bayonetta matchup recently, and what I found is that it seems doable but is very influenced by a number of factors.

First, it requires you to play patiently but not TOO patiently. You CAN outbutton Bayonetta, but you don't want to overextend because eating a jab suuuper sucks because of how light Mewtwo is. It's actually possible to SDI the jab flurry so you can mitigate the damage.

Grabs and Confusion work well, but After Burner Kick is pretty damn quick so follow-ups can be difficult. If you're not expecting it you can just get kicked in the head immediately.

Stage choice is VERY important for Mewtwo, as I've come to discover. For Bayonetta, my opponent banned large, open stages whenever he could such as BF or FD because the blast zones are large enough to mitigate some of her early kill combos and provide lots of space to maneuver against her. I took her to Town & City because it's often a decent stage choice for Mewtwo due to the low ceiling. Not here!

That's just how things are with Mewtwo, I think. As another example, I find Kirby to be a pretty tough matchup on T&C, but on something like Smashville or FD it's nowhere near as big of an issue.

 

[DblCrest]

Would you guys say Bayo is easy to use?
Not sure if it counts as braindead or anything but if we compare bodying someone with Sheik /ZSS to bodying them with Bayonetta

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Would you guys say Bayo is easy to use? Not sure if it counts as Braindead or anything but if we compare bodying someone with Sheik /ZSS to Bayo

Bayo can easily curbstomp someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

Against someone competent, she becomes pretty tricky to use effectively, though she isn't Shulk, Greninja, Duck Hunt or Pac-Man levels of tricky.

 

[Nobie]

I don't have access to a human opponent at the moment, so I was just messing around as Dedede against different level CPU Bayonettas (having gotten there from labbing vs. Corrin stuff) to check for different DI.

Obviously this is not going to be fully accurate, so I might need some help from people who know better, but I'm wondering if Dedede's jab cancel mixups are actually pretty effective against Bayo. It's Frame 10 so it's not like a typical jab, but I see potential.

Dedede has a bunch of options out of jab 2, including jab combo, grab, down tilt, and down smash. All of these, depending on percents, can kill if not at least rack up some decent damage.

SDI is the best way I believe to get out of jab combo, while jumping away is the best way to avoid many of the jab cancel followups. However, Bayonetta is a character who really doesn't want to burn her second jump unnecessarily because of how drastically it weakens her recovery.

Could this be an issue for her, especially because jab combo kills at high percents? Does it become a legitimately threatening mixup against her, or can she simply mash jump and SDI at the same time and get out of most things?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...pretty sure Bayonetta could just Witch Time/Bat Within D3's jab mixups, lol. Other than that, the usual standard fare to get out of the mixups work.

...also d-smash out of jab2 will almost always never work. You can shield it on reaction or roll away.

Smooth Criminal

 

[T4ylor]

I always hope they'll roll away. I get a decent amount of my kills by dash attacking their roll on a read.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

True, but in certain MUs you better hope they're not already back to neutral afterwards.

Otherwise, you done miscalcified.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Routa]

About Mac... Did you guys know that solo Little Mac main got placed on shared 25th place in Beast 6? Yeah... That happened.

 

[HoSmash4]

About Mac... Did you guys know that solo Little Mac main got placed on shared 25th place in Beast 6? Yeah... That happened.

He used cloud to beat smashsk a zss after his Mac got bodied.

 

[Routa]

He used cloud to beat smashsk a zss after his Mac got bodied.

Oh totally forgot that. My bad, but still you rarely see Lil' Macs doing so well in such a big tournament.

 

[the king of murder]

I tell you what about Ganondorf's MU. In all honesty, people who've had actual experience can tell otherwise what this thread's "common knowledge" would be. People have opinions, but at this point in time, no one is going to be right about anything, especially Ganondorf. It's no matter the amount of buffs, no matter how much results he can garner, no matter what, you all believe he's a bottom tiered character.

Some of you say he has bad design, but hey, he's been a large, slow character since the beginning, and it's not going to change. Complaining about it won't even help either. He's been a character buffed in, out and everywhere, has had a lot of representation and Ganondorf's flaws mean absolutely NOTHING to the players who can win with him.

He's meant to be a character who waits for an opponent to attack him on shield, or an opponent to rush in. If he wants to go in against projectiles, he can, he's literally the easiest character to perfect shield with, so it's no problem. Train by going against Mario's projectiles and know the timing of them, then go to other projectiles. It's not that hard. Hitting opponents with Ganondorf isn't even that hard, even for a character so slow (if Bayonetta can hit an opponent, so can Ganondorf).

You all say I delude myself when talking about my characters, but I say you're all deluding yourselves by even doing this, when it doesn't even matter when there is a small group of people doing a tier list. So what if a Ganondorf wins EVO 2016? You'll all become either 'enlightened' or hypocrites. You're all saying "no it won't happen, since Ganondorf is so bad", but what even constitutes a bad character? Realistically, Ganondorf CAN win EVO 2016 if there are enough participants and people playing him.

You know what? I'll say this, I'll train with Ganondorf to the best of his extent, which many people still haven't realized yet, since many Ganondorf mains might not even have found out new things. Then what I'll do is train in MUs against various characters who can make it "unwinnable" for him, pair him alongside my Link, go to EVO this year, and I will swear to you all that I...will...win and prove tiers will not apparently matter.

Goodbye. I'm going to stop focusing on this thread and I'll focus more on training for that tournament, making money and controlling my anger.

Hey now Larry, I know you are frustrated but that is not the way to go man. As for accepting Ganon as a bad character, I have already accepted him as a bad character even back when everyone was overrating him as a mid tier character(I hope you can remember that period of time where people have said "there is no reason to play Ike when Shulk exists"). I still main him because I am a stubborn character loyalist.

As for training with powershielding, every character can do that even if it is easier for dorf because of his dash, it is by no means hard for everyone else so people can use that point against you. You should base your character analysis not just to your own experience but to everyone elses as well(including mid players, top players and the like are all important), weigh them appropriately(fellow Ganon mains can say more about the character himself for example than another main who has only played against one). Than you look if any of these experiences overlap with yours. If they don't, continue to play and gain experience else where preferably in tournies.

They say the fish that thinks of himself as big is just living in a small pond.

I do think, however, that some posts attacking you are useless, unwarranted and they bring nothing to the discussion(typical one liners who hate on you just to get brownie points.. that's pathetic to say the least). However there are also a lot of posts who give valid and well constructed criticism to your posts and I advise you to listen to them.

As for Ganon, I really question what the hell his design is. He has no long range game, he sucks at close range(f8 jab? really? and basically no reliable or threatning OoS option which means you can shield poke him all day) and his mid range isn't amazing becasue every option can(at least theoretically) be reacted upon. Combine that with a really bad disadvantage including bad recovery(although workable) and ..urks. His reward... I used to believe it was the best and it is still decent I guess becasue of his read games but nothing guaranteed. When I see the ladder combo, Ryus combo and damage output and the like of Ike, DK and Bowser getting massive damage and kill confirms out of grab(in Ikes case Nair is also a kill confirm) and how reliably they can land those compared to Ganon...double urks. Not hating on these characters, all of them are well designed but Ganon is sadly not. There are even more problems with him but I think I wrote enough.

The only way Ganon is getting relevant again without destroying his design is to massively overbuff his reward, so it would justify a bad neutral and disadvantage.

Ganon is definitely low tier. Is he bottom 3? I am not sure, he is still getting good results(GtB is still winning tournies btw and adom almost breaking top32 in beast). Then again, historically speaking, Ganon is known to always have better results than on-paper strength suggest(back in Brawl, Ganon has been getting decent results getting 17th in big tournies and one even won a tourney but I can't quite remember. I am not sure about Melee but Kage has beaten Mango with Ganon once and as far as I know he has decent results there as well ). I guess that is just prove Ganon mains are the incarnation of determination, you gotta admire that.

 

[Dinoman96]

Ganondorf's design seems to be "that guy you use in free-for-alls", I'm afraid.

 

[meleebrawler]

I got to play a bit of the Mewtwo vs. Bayonetta matchup recently, and what I found is that it seems doable but is very influenced by a number of factors.

First, it requires you to play patiently but not TOO patiently. You CAN outbutton Bayonetta, but you don't want to overextend because eating a jab suuuper sucks because of how light Mewtwo is. It's actually possible to SDI the jab flurry so you can mitigate the damage.

Grabs and Confusion work well, but After Burner Kick is pretty damn quick so follow-ups can be difficult. If you're not expecting it you can just get kicked in the head immediately.

Stage choice is VERY important for Mewtwo, as I've come to discover. For Bayonetta, my opponent banned large, open stages whenever he could such as BF or FD because the blast zones are large enough to mitigate some of her early kill combos and provide lots of space to maneuver against her. I took her to Town & City because it's often a decent stage choice for Mewtwo due to the low ceiling. Not here!

That's just how things are with Mewtwo, I think. As another example, I find Kirby to be a pretty tough matchup on T&C, but on something like Smashville or FD it's nowhere near as big of an issue.

A large part of the Bayo/Mewtwo matchup is basically him charging a shot and then letting the psychological effect do the rest. It makes a large portion of her approaches very unsafe, mainly leaving Mewtwo to just watch for the dive kick, which is still a fair commitment when used as an attack.

As for stage picks, Mewtwo's the kind of Pokemon that's versatile enough to handle himself no matter where he is, which leaves him free to choose the stage that'll let him best combat whatever opponent he may be facing.

 

[|RK|]

Ganondorf's design seems to be "that guy you use in free-for-alls", I'm afraid.

He is my FFA + items main, lol

 

[adom4]

Hey now Larry, I know you are frustrated but that is not the way to go man. As for accepting Ganon as a bad character, I have already accepted him as a bad character even back when everyone was overrating him as a mid tier character(I hope you can remember that period of time where people have said "there is no reason to play Ike when Shulk exists"). I still main him because I am a stubborn character loyalist.

As for training with powershielding, every character can do that even if it is easier for dorf because of his dash, it is by no means hard for everyone else so people can use that point against you. You should base your character analysis not just to your own experience but to everyone elses as well(including mid players, top players and the like are all important), weigh them appropriately(fellow Ganon mains can say more about the character himself for example than another main who has only played against one). Than you look if any of these experiences overlap with yours. If they don't, continue to play and gain experience else where preferably in tournies.

They say the fish that thinks of himself as big is just living in a small pond.

I do think, however, that some posts attacking you are useless, unwarranted and they bring nothing to the discussion(typical one liners who hate on you just to get brownie points.. that's pathetic to say the least). However there are also a lot of posts who give valid and well constructed criticism to your posts and I advise you to listen to them.

As for Ganon, I really question what the hell his design is. He has no long range game, he sucks at close range(f8 jab? really? and basically no reliable or threatning OoS option which means you can shield poke him all day) and his mid range isn't amazing becasue every option can(at least theoretically) be reacted upon. Combine that with a really bad disadvantage including bad recovery(although workable) and ..urks. His reward... I used to believe it was the best and it is still decent I guess becasue of his read games but nothing guaranteed. When I see the ladder combo, Ryus combo and damage output and the like of Ike, DK and Bowser getting massive damage and kill confirms out of grab(in Ikes case Nair is also a kill confirm) and how reliably they can land those compared to Ganon...double urks. Not hating on these characters, all of them are well designed but Ganon is sadly not. There are even more problems with him but I think I wrote enough.

The only way Ganon is getting relevant again without destroying his design is to massively overbuff his reward, so it would justify a bad neutral and disadvantage.

Ganon is definitely low tier. Is he bottom 3? I am not sure, he is still getting good results(GtB is still winning tournies btw and adom almost breaking top32 in beast). Then again, historically speaking, Ganon is known to always have better results than on-paper strength suggest(back in Brawl, Ganon has been getting decent results getting 17th in big tournies and one even won a tourney but I can't quite remember. I am not sure about Melee but Kage has beaten Mango with Ganon once and as far as I know he has decent results there as well ). I guess that is just prove Ganon mains are the incarnation of determination, you gotta admire that.

To be honest i do think he might have been around low-mid before but other characters just got better than him over time thanks to patches, even if he got buffed his buffs were never huge like Ike/Bowser/M2 or even characters like Falco and Zard.
Also i disagree about characters like Bowser & DK being well designed, giving characters easy grab confirms like that imo feels like a cheap buff that mostly puts a bandaid on them instead of fixing their real issues.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Welcome to Lake Wobegon, where there are 20 characters in top 15, 35 characters better than half the cast, and only 2 characters in bottom 5. Because that's the feeling I'm getting from watching this thread.

 

[Greward]

Would you guys say Bayo is easy to use?
Not sure if it counts as braindead or anything but if we compare bodying someone with Sheik /ZSS to bodying them with Bayonetta

Either she is super easy to use or she's completely overpowered

 

[Blobface]

Ganon does not need a read to kill Jigglypuff. Even some of his weaker moves like D-tilt or Dash Attack will easily kill Puff sub 90 without rage. And if Ganon does land a hard read, Jigglypuff won't "die at 60", she'll be lucky to survive at 40.

And why does "Jigglypuff has trouble with Ganon's N-air and U-air" translate to "Ganon will be SH N-airing every second of the match"? It's an option Ganon has that he can use to stuff Puff jumps when she's out of her range.

As for Ganon as a whole, the only real problem he suffers from is that he has too many unrewarding moves. If his reward was more consistent across his moveset I'd call him viable without a doubt.

 

[Luco]

Gonna be honest here, Jiggs doesn't have much to get in on Ganon with. She's weaving in and out with airdodges to compensate for her frankly poor range, maybe using pound to threaten shield but also guaranteeing a punish on her on block in the hope that they'll use their shield again in the next 15 seconds. Unlike your high tier main (unless you're *cries* ), Ganon can and will be threatening her in neutral, and that's not to mention how few correct choices he needs in neutral to end that balloon's stock.

Which isn't to say Jiggs can't kill early, either. I've seen Puff players who are so terrifying with rest punishes that you start calculating the MU as if your stock average mortality is 55%. Jiggs vastly out-performs Ganon offstage and will probably be getting a stock or a billion percent every time he's out there, but in return Ganon is laughing all over her failure of an excuse for neutral which is what she needs to win in order to put Ganon offstage, and I just don't think she does that consistently enough.

 

[L9999]

Ganon is definitely low tier. Is he bottom 3? I am not sure, he is still getting good results(GtB is still winning tournies btw and adom almost breaking top32 in beast). Then again, historically speaking, Ganon is known to always have better results than on-paper strength suggest(back in Brawl, Ganon has been getting decent results getting 17th in big tournies and one even won a tourney but I can't quite remember. I am not sure about Melee but Kage has beaten Mango with Ganon once and as far as I know he has decent results there as well ). I guess that is just prove Ganon mains are the incarnation of determination, you gotta admire that.

IMO he is conyesting with DDD for bttom 4 on the prospect Mii Brawler is worse than Zelda and Jigglypuff. And how does Ganon gets so far with a lot of crappy matchups?

 

[Deleted member]

IMO he is conyesting with DDD for bttom 4 on the prospect Mii Brawler is worse than Zelda and Jigglypuff. And how does Ganon gets so far with a lot of crappy matchups?

As aforementioned, Ganon players have a lot of dedication. Even as somebody who doesn't think very highly of the Ganon himself, his playerbase is one of the most determined I've seen out of any character. Plus, players just simply outplay others sometimes (ex. Zinoto beating Dabuz at Landlocked recently despite the Rosa MU being seen as a -2 for Diddy most of the time).

 

[Flux0r]

I firmly believe Ganondorf was at one point overpowered in free-for-alls in Melee. The game's main selling point is that mode, which is probably why he was so immensely nerfed in Brawl.

Despite Ganondorf being better in every way from Brawl, he still possesses the severe downgrades he got during the transistion from Melee to Brawl.

He needs a rework in two departments:

• Mobility

Ganondorf has some of it in Melee, but none of it here.

L-Canceling, Wavedashing and other techniques gave him some options to work with, but that is no longer possible. He needs some extra speed to keep up with the relevant characters, he is currently a sitting duck 90% of the time.

• Reliable KO moves

Despite his extreme power in his overall moves, none of his more safer moves outside of U-Air are easy to land and kill with.

Landing a grab results in nothing, B-Air has poor active frames and D-Air has too much lag. The biggest offenders are F-Air and Wizard's Foot. They're laughably weak in utility compared to their Melee counterparts.

 

[Swoops]

The matchup is probably really volatile anyways, since Witch Time is gonna smash a light character like Mewtwo really really early. Actually, that might be a problem in the MU, depending on how early he dies to fthrow, dair, and especially bair.

M2's NAir can actually kinda blow up Witch Time. You have to be careful throwing anything else out though, that's for sure.

 

[adom4]

I firmly believe Ganondorf was at one point overpowered in free-for-alls in Melee. The game's main selling point is that mode, which is probably why he was so immensely nerfed in Brawl.

Despite Ganondorf being better in every way from Brawl, he still possesses the severe downgrades he got during the transistion from Melee to Brawl.

He needs a rework in two departments:

• Mobility

Ganondorf has some of it in Melee, but none of it here.

L-Canceling, Wavedashing and other techniques gave him some options to work with, but that is no longer possible. He needs some extra speed to keep up with the relevant characters, he is currently a sitting duck 90% of the time.

• Reliable KO moves

Despite his extreme power in his overall moves, none of his more safer moves outside of U-Air are easy to land and kill with.

Landing a grab results in nothing, B-Air has poor active frames and D-Air has too much lag. The biggest offenders are F-Air and Wizard's Foot. They're laughably weak in utility compared to their Melee counterparts.

Bair and Fair are fine, his Bair is one of the best in the game and Fair is still very powerful, has a big lasting hitbox & is safe on shield.
The bigger offenders are jab and grounded wizkick, both are very undertuned.

 

[Flux0r]

Bair and Fair are fine, his Bair is one of the best in the game and Fair is still very powerful, has a big lasting hitbox & is safe on shield.
The bigger offenders are jab and grounded wizkick, both are very undertuned.

They are not bad, but they could be alot better if we're talking about a viable Ganondorf.

 

[adom4]

They are not bad, but they could be alot better if we're talking about a viable Ganondorf.

Buffing his already very good moves won't do much, most odds that the only way Dorf can be completely viable is if you make him dumb as hell.