Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[~ Gheb ~]

Reflex is the only Wario player I consider relevant at this point, so sadly, no.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Brawl had a lot of miserably one sided match ups:

vs
vs
vs
vs (being arguably the worst with the right stage counterpicks) and pretty much a vast majority of everyone below the top ten
vs
vs everyone big and heavy except Snake
vs anyone slow
vs


I don't think what Gheb said was entirely unreasonable because there were many matchups in Brawl that were virtually unwinnable except in the case of extreme match up ignorance.

 

[Megamang]

Both iterations of Wario have struggled with disjoints, and cloud is the deadliest swordie we've seen since Marths of old (I don't count MK, though he was a problem for Wario too). Its hard to imagine a disjoint + amazing mobility + chargeable and ostensibly superior trump card doesn't give him huge trouble.

The best approach to the matchup is probably making him approach with Limit Charge. I know I just said don't approach when he does this, but Wario kinda has to. Otherwise you are just dropping LCS and Beam Blades on the guy for massive damage, and starting to charge again immediately. Bowser Jr is played hyper aggressively by Tweek, and he hasn't been maining Cloud for that long... was he camping in the MU? I can see how Wario's gimping and command grab could give him trouble if you were approaching, but really of all MUs it doesn't make sense to play like this.

I don't play much Wario in S4, so maybe im missing something here, but what does Wario have besides air mobility and gimping, which almost anyone can claim? Clouds ground mobility makes up for most people's air mobility, since he can stay on the ground and rising uair is a huge threat to anyone above him, and his amazing dance trot/PP makes baiting an approach pretty easy. Hell, even regular pivot Ftilt seems like a really hard wall to break.

My MK lost to Reflex's Wario in Brawl, so im familiar with how the character has insane potential for comebacks and how good Reflex is... but Wario hasn't had to fight another character with an early killing trump card that beats his before. I don't see 80:20 because Wario is just too good and fast for that, but I can't see how he does well... Unless a nair can consistently start a horizontal chain, or some other interaction where Cloud is easily sent offstage.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I have an idea

@TheReflexWonder

What are your thoughts on Wario vs. Cloud? Or Wario in general, for that matter?

Smooth Criminal

 

[LancerStaff]

Just thinking out loud here... But to me it seems like Cloud's horizontal range just isn't that effective from what I'm hearing from you guys. His grounded normals aren't safe like at all right? And I've heard his Fair isn't very safe either, and it has about 20 frames of startup. His main safe move is Uair but it requires him to be right on top of the opponent, and heck, couldn't you just crouch at the last second and Dtilt/Dsmash?

 

[Megamang]

Bair is one of the best horizontal spacing moves there is. Ftilt isn't safe but is extremely effective. Additionally, his mobility powers up horizontal spacing a lot. PP utilt is not that difficult to hit, and starts pretty painful strings for most characters. Its hard to space him horizontally at all with his mobility, and in situations where Fair is too slow he should be nairing anyways.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I see people saying this a lot so I might as well clear it up now; Rosalina doesn't force projectile characters to approach. Ever. She can force melee based characters to approach because she could Luma jab them from halfway across the stage, but against projectile characters, they'll just throw stuff at Luma if you try that.

Against projectile characters, your options are to create a stalemate with GP or find a way to approach without shielding too much because shielding gets Luma knocked away (Unless Luma hasn't taken much damage) which causes you to retreat or wait for Luma to fly back to you.
It's true that Rosalina tends to have at least doable MUs against projectile based characters, but that's not because she decimates them in neutral.

You said yourself, your options are to create a stalemate or approach, so this still means that Rosalina has the advantage in this situation. Yes, you can continue to damage Luma but it still doesn't take long for it to come back and Rosa can still stall with gravity well. If all you're doing is hurting Luma, you're not really doing anything because it's meant to be expendable.

 

[PK Gaming]

I don't think what Gheb said was entirely unreasonable because there were many matchups in Brawl that were virtually unwinnable except in the case of extreme match up ignorance.

Gheb was almost exclusively talking about Smash 4 though. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at here.

 

[Bobert]

Speaking of positive Dedede matchups, what are his positive match-ups in Smash 4? Is Ganon even still in his favor after Brawl?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Gheb was almost exclusively talking about Smash 4 though. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at here.

That hilariously bad match ups exist all across Smash and I think people are deluding themselves if they think this game doesn't have any virtually unwinnable match ups.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Honestly the question of whether Bayo/Ganon is 2-8 or 1-9 is mostly semantics, since it's clearly bad enough where a Bayo playing to win realistically shouldn't lose. I don't believe it's 0-10 simply because I don't think it's quite so bad that you can just wall out all his options automatically through proper execution like in a couple of Brawl MUs. In this MU Ganon needs to somehow get a lead and then play almost flawlessly to win if Bayo's willing to play for the timeout. My guess is that on stages where she can just run away like T&C it's 1-9, while on smaller stages it's probably 2-8. Again, it's not a distinction that really matters for practical tourney play since you shouldn't lose this MU at a high level, but it's more of a Murphy's Law kind of thing that indicates how easy or hard it is to screw it up if things are going wrong.

 

[Radical Larry]

I tell you what about Ganondorf's MU. In all honesty, people who've had actual experience can tell otherwise what this thread's "common knowledge" would be. People have opinions, but at this point in time, no one is going to be right about anything, especially Ganondorf. It's no matter the amount of buffs, no matter how much results he can garner, no matter what, you all believe he's a bottom tiered character.

Some of you say he has bad design, but hey, he's been a large, slow character since the beginning, and it's not going to change. Complaining about it won't even help either. He's been a character buffed in, out and everywhere, has had a lot of representation and Ganondorf's flaws mean absolutely NOTHING to the players who can win with him.

He's meant to be a character who waits for an opponent to attack him on shield, or an opponent to rush in. If he wants to go in against projectiles, he can, he's literally the easiest character to perfect shield with, so it's no problem. Train by going against Mario's projectiles and know the timing of them, then go to other projectiles. It's not that hard. Hitting opponents with Ganondorf isn't even that hard, even for a character so slow (if Bayonetta can hit an opponent, so can Ganondorf).

You all say I delude myself when talking about my characters, but I say you're all deluding yourselves by even doing this, when it doesn't even matter when there is a small group of people doing a tier list. So what if a Ganondorf wins EVO 2016? You'll all become either 'enlightened' or hypocrites. You're all saying "no it won't happen, since Ganondorf is so bad", but what even constitutes a bad character? Realistically, Ganondorf CAN win EVO 2016 if there are enough participants and people playing him.

You know what? I'll say this, I'll train with Ganondorf to the best of his extent, which many people still haven't realized yet, since many Ganondorf mains might not even have found out new things. Then what I'll do is train in MUs against various characters who can make it "unwinnable" for him, pair him alongside my Link, go to EVO this year, and I will swear to you all that I...will...win and prove tiers will not apparently matter.

Goodbye. I'm going to stop focusing on this thread and I'll focus more on training for that tournament, making money and controlling my anger.

 

[Megamang]

Ganon's whole ' I win on a few reads ' totally falls apart to the MUs where you don't have to fight him. I think DeDeDe's tanking and rageness is the same way. He can win any MU where he gets to say 'Ok, when they approach I have to read it twice and boom im back in this' and is essentially hopeless in MUs where the enemy can rack up damage totally safely, and then only enter when some sort of confirm or projectile hit lets you know you'll get a kill.

Megaman vs DDD is about this bad imo. He really can't deal with simple pellet pressure, and then eventually metal blade throws or SGT will confirm into a utilt, killing him before he gets a chance to rack much damage. The weight discrepancy isn't even that huge in that MU. Yea, probably one of his worst, I've had a friend say he'd rather play shiek or ZSS than a mega in bracket.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Speaking of positive Dedede matchups, what are his positive match-ups in Smash 4? Is Ganon even still in his favor after Brawl?

Yeah, Ganon is one of the very few characters that D3 has a +1 on. Disjoints/range plus multiple jumps keep Ganon at bay, and he doesn't really have a great answer while he's getting thrown around in disadvantage.

As for his other positive MUs? Don't really have time to go into it now.

Megamang

I keep telling people MM is hands-down one of D3's worst MUs. You literally take away the midrange from him with projectiles (normals AND specials), and force him to give up playing footsies/neutral altogether to stop the barrage. He has very little wiggle room. I'm with your friend; at least ZSS and Sheik make me feel like I can play the game against them despite how bad it is.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Planty]

If all you're doing is hurting Luma, you're not really doing anything because it's meant to be expendable.

No it's not. There's a reason that good Rosalina players do their best to maintain stage control and offensively deal with pressure; you have to keep Luma safe. And the respawn isn't that short. 12.55 + a few seconds of the dying animation or falling offstage = 15-20 seconds without Luma. That's terrifying against characters that can deal pressure.

You said yourself, your options are to create a stalemate or approach, so this still means that Rosalina has the advantage in this situation.

No she doesn't. Being forced to approach means that you're not in the control of the situation because you're forced to do something. Creating a stalemate situation means that you're incapable or unwilling to do anything else because it'll endanger you. Neither option has any indication of advantage.

Yes, you can continue to damage Luma but it still doesn't take long for it to come back and Rosa can still stall with gravity well.

If Luma is dead, a good Megaman or Toon Link or w/e will use their projectiles to get into about a mid-range where they can throw stuff and punish GP if it's attempted. At this range, Rosalina can't actually safely poke out these guys because Luma is dead and once her offensive pressure is gone, what are you left with? She can't run/jump away because stuff is getting thrown at her, she can't charge through projectiles, her SHAD options are trash without Luma, and her only good option is shielding, which can be punished.

Do you understand why Rosalina mains are constantly saying that she sucks without Luma? This is why. Her entire gameplan just falls apart once he's dead. She becomes Zelda 0.5; a character with a completely dysfunctional neutral game, but also with a much lower damage output and less weight.

 

[Megamang]

I tell you what about Ganondorf's MU. In all honesty, people who've had actual experience can tell otherwise what this thread's "common knowledge" would be. People have opinions, but at this point in time, no one is going to be right about anything, especially Ganondorf. It's no matter the amount of buffs, no matter how much results he can garner, no matter what, you all believe he's a bottom tiered character.

Some of you say he has bad design, but hey, he's been a large, slow character since the beginning, and it's not going to change. Complaining about it won't even help either. He's been a character buffed in, out and everywhere, has had a lot of representation and Ganondorf's flaws mean absolutely NOTHING to the players who can win with him.

He's meant to be a character who waits for an opponent to attack him on shield, or an opponent to rush in. If he wants to go in against projectiles, he can, he's literally the easiest character to perfect shield with, so it's no problem. Train by going against Mario's projectiles and know the timing of them, then go to other projectiles. It's not that hard. Hitting opponents with Ganondorf isn't even that hard, even for a character so slow (if Bayonetta can hit an opponent, so can Ganondorf).

You all say I delude myself when talking about my characters, but I say you're all deluding yourselves by even doing this, when it doesn't even matter when there is a small group of people doing a tier list. So what if a Ganondorf wins EVO 2016? You'll all become either 'enlightened' or hypocrites. You're all saying "no it won't happen, since Ganondorf is so bad", but what even constitutes a bad character? Realistically, Ganondorf CAN win EVO 2016 if there are enough participants and people playing him.

You know what? I'll say this, I'll train with Ganondorf to the best of his extent, which many people still haven't realized yet, since many Ganondorf mains might not even have found out new things. Then what I'll do is train in MUs against various characters who can make it "unwinnable" for him, pair him alongside my Link, go to EVO this year, and I will swear to you all that I...will...win and prove tiers will not apparently matter.

Goodbye. I'm going to stop focusing on this thread and I'll focus more on training for that tournament, making money and controlling my anger.

Ok, im gonna reply here. Mostly because I have a new keyboard and I really enjoy my blue switches and hearing myself type. But seriously larry, if you want people to accept your viewpoint you have to try and listen to what people are telling you. I'm gonna try and be objective here. Responses ordered paragraph by paragraph.

The question here is who is he better than? I don't have much input here, because I don't pretend to know about the ordering of the bottom 60% of the cast, since I have a lot less footage and theory to go on here. But passionate people in each board will tell you why he isn't better than their character, and it really leaves me wondering who he edges out. I believe he is better than DeDeDe with his throw buffs and probably better than Puff, or at least beats puff... otherwise I really can't think of a character I place him above without their mains claiming otherwise. But yea, at this point in time people are going to be right about things, I don't know what you meant by that but people are currently placing with their knowledge so I don't know what else to say besides a year is a long time to develop a game, especially with groundwork being layed by 3 prequels...

Yes, he has been a large slow character since the beginning... That is the part people are saying is bad design. They aren't attacking you for enjoying the character, or saying winning is impossible, or saying he is futile to play... just that big and slow isn't conducive to being very strong in smash, with some exceptions. Even the higher level big and strong characters over smash history, like melee ganon and Snake in brawl, have some really fast options, at least for the space they cover. And they also have low recovery, that is important for a move's usefulness, if you can punish their only spacing options, you just bait them to space and go from there. And many of the listed flaws ARE from people who win with him. Vermanubis (sp) is amazing with the character, and still discusses his flaws objectively.

What if they don't attack his shield, do it safely, or don't rush in at all? That is the issue. His powershield window is the same as everyone else, and he is objectively worse at it than other smaller characters. Yes, powershielding a projectile is something we've been doing, and Mario's fireballs are pretty easy... but it isn't about the projectile hitting, its about how much ground you gain from them being thrown. Who moves into what position. Think of it like link's bombs, you can not hit a single bomb and still make progress with the opponent by moving them to your will. Ganon struggles with this. What if bayo can hit an opponent? Well, she can do it safer, and has a much higher reward. Her bair, for example, reaches further and retracts faster and hits lower and therefore works better against shields. She ends up further way and safer. Now compare their divekicks? Ganon's can break shield, and kills earlier, these are definitely good points for him. Hers is safe on shield, and before kill percents, does way more damage in the way of confirms. Its also faster and reaches longer. It also kills near the same percent off the top in certain positions and stages due to the following confirms.

Any character can win, and no one is disputing this. But how can he overcome Zero? How does he beat having to approach, having to get past needles (you don't gain any ground powershielding needles), and dying even earlier than he kills her due to her combo game and gimping prowess. There are ways, but are there ways that don't involve Zero making a very uncharacteristic mistake? Sure dair will kill him at 20%, but he reacts way WAY too fast for that to happen in all but the friendliest friendlies. If you or anyone else wins EVO 2016 with ganon, I will be extremely hype, and support you the whole way. People just want to give you their viewpoint, and also have you understand that when you get there people will play ****ty. They will exploit ganon's flaws to the fullest, because they want that W just as much as anyone else. Sitting back and throwing needles is something you will have to consider if you want to make it out of Pools even. Again, not doubting you, but these are hurdles ganon has particular trouble with.

This paragraph, you fundamentally don't understand tiers. They aren't dumping on your character, they aren't saying with enough skill you can't win... The game is player vs player, but you are using the tool that is your character to perform. How do you get past someone with high skill, a tool that is able to keep you out and damage you and string into kills? Tiers aren't the end all in anyones mind, or else every game would be won by the highest tier in competition. This clearly isn't the case. Its just people trying to make sense of the game they play. Sure they miss stuff, but that is the point! We can look back and see what we knew, compare it to what we know now. People are interested in seeing characters climb. I would love it if Link made a dramatic climb, my GF mains her and loves the games. I want to see her succeed. But when she asks what to do against a needle camping shiek, she needs to know she was in a tough spot and people have struggled and will struggle against that. That you may not have the right tool for the situation, and need to outplay the player. Because not every MU is 50:50; to achieve that we wouldn't have Links, Bayonettas, Ganondorfs, because tools naturally don't match up perfectly evenly, but having very different tools is what gives a character identity and makes a fighting game fun to play with 50+ different characters.

Again, don't be angry. Most people here generally want you to see their point of view. I will leave with this note: Wanting you to see it isn't wanting you to accept it without challenge. People just want to be understood, and from here reasonable discourse can take place. But sometimes your posts show you don't understand, and you get angry when people talk about how this may be. I agree, don't get angry. Its a game, and we are all trying to have fun. If we aren't having fun, then whats the point? It took me a while to have this PoV, and I raged at people on the ladder. I deeply regret this, and I had to take a step back to work on this.


Good luck at Evo.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Please stop spreading that cancerous character (Brawl KD3). It shut down my fave characters (DK and Wolf) and beat the brakes off my Squirtle. Brawl was a game of polarization in the worst sense.

 

[adom4]

I was talking about the MU being bad for Gunner and I talked about Ganondorfs sideB. Dtilt catches tech away and without a tech dtilt is guaranteed.. it's pretty horrible.

Oh.
I only played against tiny gunner and he def wins against Ganon, grenade/bomb spam is a pain, but our kill options and damage racking are better so it keeps it close.
Dunno about default gunner though.

 

[Megamang]

I like to thank brawl for Smash 4. We saw what was poor design, what wasn't fun, and what wasn't balanced. Now we see how to make a good game!

Bringing Capcom on board was the greatest thing Nintendo decided to do. As much as we discuss the issues with the game here, i really do appreciate the fact I can finally main a mid tier and have a decent shot at competition... With a secondary for shiek, but perhaps she'll get lighter soon! Im serious, 1 unit of weight was a silly start but 10 off her weight would be very interesting. It means she has to be even more delicate with her options, since she always has a good one... It would just wreck her in FFAs and doubles, but meh... she still accels there with a skilled player. You can hop on FG smash and win by just going offstage and stealing kills with BF pretty easily. Plus 1v1 balance is the most important

 

[Djmarcus44]

The Ganon: Gunner MU is probably pretty "bad" because you cannot escape sideB as all and he can't kill Ganondorf reliably so it's a prime example of 1000 hits doing nothing while Ganondorf has to hit 4-5 to seal the stock.
Could still be even because Ganondorf is so bad tho

Gunner definitely wins that matchup because Ganon struggles severely with getting close to Gunner (while Ganondorf can kill by getting in only 4 or 5 times, it would be very difficult to get in 1 or 2 times against a Gunner that knows what they are doing). I played against a player at my skill level that uses Ganon, and it was an easy win for me (I two stocked him and took his first stock while only taking 8%). Gunner can definitely escape from side b since it sets up a tech chase. Since Gunner has multiple options for escaping from side b, it is not going to deal very much damage against Gunner (it will also be very difficult to land this move with Gunner keeping Ganon away). While Ganondorf lives a pretty long time in this matchup since he is heavy, Gunner can kill him at a reasonable percent by canceling our jab combo into a smash attack (these follow ups are listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread) or by edgeguarding Ganondorf with flame pillar until he can be hit with a charge blast (it would be a follow up that is very hard to avoid around 140 on Ganondorf . Flame pillar to charge blast is also a kill confirm when opponents move into the pillar). Up smash is also good for covering rolls and jumps if flame pillar isn't spaced to cover the ledge. Gunner can also kill Ganondorf from a grab with up throw or Down throw to up air after a DI read (at around 130). Gunner also has some other fast options such as up tilt (comes out on frame 5 and kills Ganondorf around 150), down tilt (comes out on frame 8 and kills Ganondorf around 145), and down smash (comes out on frame 9 and kills around 110 to 130 percent depending on position).

Gunner also juggles Ganondorf well since Ganondorf lacks in safe landing options (wizard's foot has around 42 frames of lag, and Gunner's up tilt outranges all of Ganondorf's aerials when they are used directly above Gunner. Gunner can also cover Ganondorf's landing with charge blast or dash attack since they have more priority than most of Ganondorf's options. Gundashing also gives Gunner more than enough speed to juggle Ganondorf.

Gunner edgeguards Ganondorf really well due to the fact that Gunner can cover the ledge with flame pillar for at least 40 frames (Gunner can possibly kill Ganondorf by spamming flame pillar at the ledge because Ganondorf's recovery is very bad). Gunner can also cover Ganondorf's options from the ledge with charge blast and forward smash.

Gunner wins this matchup at least 65:35 if not 70:30 because of the sheer dominance that Gunner has in the neutral and the fact that Gunner racks up damage very easily against Ganondorf. Mii Gunner's shorthop fair is a major problem for Ganondorf in the neutral because Ganondorf lacks a reliable way to stop that move (it outranges all of Ganondorf's options and it is very safe since it only has 12 frames of landing lag). Walking and perfect shielding gunner's fair isn't very effective since Gunner's fair is safe on perfect shielding and Ganondorf doesn't have the out of shield options fast enough to stop Gunner from grabbing him (gunner gets true combos and follow ups from a grab that are listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread). Wizard's foot is also not a good option for getting in since it is stopped by fair and forward smash (both of these moves have transcendent priority). It is also stopped by flame pillar and charge blast since both moves have great priority. While Ganondorf can get a lot of damage from side b by reading Gunner's options it is also incredibly hard to land this move against Gunner since it is slow (frame 16) and it is beat out by a lot of Gunner's moves (especially fair since it comes out on frame 10 and it outranges the move). While Ganondorf lives a pretty long time in this matchup, he also has a pretty hard time killing Gunner since he lacks kill confirms, and he has a hard time catching Gunner. It is also somewhat hard for Ganondorf to juggle Gunner since gunner has a good variety of landing mixups (gundashing, flame pillar, stalling with reflector, and lunar launch).

I only played this MU with customs and while Dorf does lose it's not that bad because of Gunner's awful recovery and medikcre kill options.
Also if your talking about fire pillar that move is *** lol, it's piss easy escaping it.

The matchup gets better for Ganondorf with customs because Ganondorf's custom specials are more useful for approaching Gunner (Gunner's other moves aren't as good for this matchup since they don't have the priority to consistently keep out Ganondorf).

Flame pillar is not a bad move because it is good at stopping approaches and stopping projectiles. It is also great for edgeguarding (It covers the entire ledge when spaced properly. Against Ganondorf it can easily rack up tons of damage since Ganondorf doesn't have many options to recover high). While it isn't great for combos, it can still combo into a good amount of moves if an opponent moves into the pillar.

While Gunner's recovery is not very good, Gunner can still mix it up by Gundashing to the stage or stalling with reflector. Gunner can also cover his/her recovery by using flame pillar or fair. In fact, Ganondorf has a harder time recovering than Gunner because his recovery doesn't have a great distance, and it can be challenged easily by projectiles since Ganondorf doesn't have any good options for recovering high.

 

[LancerStaff]

I like to thank brawl for Smash 4. We saw what was poor design, what wasn't fun, and what wasn't balanced. Now we see how to make a good game!

Bringing Capcom on board was the greatest thing Nintendo decided to do. As much as we discuss the issues with the game here, i really do appreciate the fact I can finally main a mid tier and have a decent shot at competition... With a secondary for shiek, but perhaps she'll get lighter soon! Im serious, 1 unit of weight was a silly start but 10 off her weight would be very interesting. It means she has to be even more delicate with her options, since she always has a good one... It would just wreck her in FFAs and doubles, but meh... she still accels there with a skilled player. You can hop on FG smash and win by just going offstage and stealing kills with BF pretty easily. Plus 1v1 balance is the most important

...Uh, I don't think Capcom did anything besides cough up the rights to Megaman and Ryu. Namco's dev teams from Tekken and Soul Caliber did most of the work.

Even if we do somehow get another patch I don't think they're going to take much more weight away from Sheik, precisely because that'd make her useless outside of 1v1s.

 

[Nobie]

I think it was almost inevitable that Mega Man would have a bizarre matchup spread where he dominates some characters and gets dunked on by others. Just be happy HE'S not the dominant top tier or else his unique style of play would probably invalidate way more characters than Sheik ever could by just being very, very well rounded. In fact, the general though that Mega Man is a mid tier is practically a testament to how well designed he was for Smash 4.

I could see Dedede vs. Corrin being a decent matchup on paper. Dragon Fang Shot is a good projectile, but it's not like, pellets or Needles or anything ridiculous. Dedede's also got enough range that he can probably challenge Corrin in a lot of instances, and being the character with the most vertical survivability I imagine helps against a character who specializes in vertical KOs. Then again, with air speed that bad it also means escaping juggles is easier said than done.

The game Corrin wants to play is roughly in the same zone as Dedede's ideal range, so it might just come down to which character can get the upper hand in that situation. I doubt there would be any sort of "hit and run" that you see the strongest anti-Dedede characters pull off.

 

[Megamang]

Oh, my mistake. That was what I referring to. Not the same brawl team =P

Yeaaa, I appreciate the careful approach to shiek but I think a little more tweaking would be nice. Its nice to not have balance drastically swing with the patches, but I don't want a character with no bad MU's.. can't we have a smash without a character with no bad MUs! Damnit.


Edit: total theorycrafting, but I feel with DDD's really strong, respectable aerials, counter might be a problem for him


How bad does countering the landing hit of Super DDD jump hurt him? And, if he cancels the hitbox (he can still do this, right?) and Corrin counters, she can still F-smash him, right? Obviously this isn't true on the ledge, but corrin is one of the best at preventing snaps due to the freakin lance (both side B and down-fsmash)

 

[FallofBrawl]

We can also thank Namco for rage /s, something implemented in the latest iterations of Tekken too.

 

[Ghostbone]

How can a MU possibly be 10-0 if the other character has a victory screen animation

Ivysaur's matchups are all 0-10 because squirtle will be the one in the victory screen.

Also, Gheb's ratios are pretty spot on, and the difference between bayo:ganon being -3 or -4 for ganon (8:2 or 9:1) is pretty meaningless, it's at least -3.
It's not like this is the only example of an unbalanced matchup in smash 4 either.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Real fast:

You do NOT want to cancel Super Dedede Jump on-stage unless you're one hundred percent sure that you can recover from it in time (like, on a stray platform on T&C). In that scenario with Corrin, you're just begging for them to space properly and punish accordingly for free. They could even style on you with DFS or with a pin.

Actually countering the hitbox itself? That is largely dependent on D3's percentage and good DI. It's a very real threat around 80 or so percent, possibly a little lower, so even a fat ass like him needs to be wary.

I would go for the edge hoping to armor the attempted 2-framer, tbh.

Nobie

For the record, I like your assessment of the MU on paper. However, I feel like Corrin might be able to close the gap against D3 more reliably than he can do to him/her. Corrin can out-button Dedede pretty handily, too.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Nobie]

We can also thank Namco for rage /s, something implemented in the latest iterations of Tekken too.

I've brought this up before, but people act as if comeback mechanics are this new thing in fighting games that mess with the inherent competitive nature of the genre. It turns out, though, that fighters from almost the very beginning have had comeback mechanics, and they've been a pretty constant presence throughout.

In Street Fighter II, if your character had low health, their attacks would do more damage. Sound familiar?

In Fatal Fury 2, at low health you could access your "desperation moves." These are basically the precursor to Ultras in Street Fighter IV.

Fei-Yen in Virtual On has a "hyper mode" she activates when she loses 50% of her health that greatly boosts her speed, power, and the quality of her special attacks. I think there are some substantial similarities to Aura and Rage here as well.

In general, any game where you build meter or gain something from getting hit can be said to have "comeback mechanics," and it's impossible to say if a game is competitive or not just simply on the presence of something like Rage.

No-basis theory time: I think Rage is basically the evolved version of tripping, and I mean that in a good way.

Originally, items were put into Smash as a way to even things out. You could argue that items were a kind of comeback mechanic that allowed a losing player to even the field if it just so happened that they got the right item at the right time.

Most people who played competitively turned items off (I see you, Item Standard Play proponents! I still think you're awesome). Thus, Sakurai might have wanted to implement something into the game that would have a function similar to items, even when items were turned off: hence, tripping.

If the winning player trips at the wrong time, the losing player has a chance to take advantage of it. In other words, it's like a comeback mechanic.

Turns out, EVERYONE hates tripping, from casuals to hardcore tournament winners to Aunt Patty down the street. It made no one feel good in the way items could.

However, Rage has none of those concerns. It gives a potential boost to the losing player, yes, but in a way that's measurable and understandable once you look more deeply. There is nothing "random" about Rage. Its other functions are to make the combo/string system of Smash even more dynamic by introducing another variable besides DI, damage taken, staleness, and inherent power of attacks... and to aid heavy characters or anyone who manages to survive a long time.

Rage is tripping without the randomness, and spread like a thin layer throughout a matchup rather than all at once in what is potentially a single pivotal moment.

 

[PK Gaming]

That hilariously bad match ups exist all across Smash and I think people are deluding themselves if they think this game doesn't have any virtually unwinnable match ups.

I don't think Smash 4 is even remotely comparable to Brawl in regards to "unwinnable" match ups.

The are very few "unwinnable" matchups in Smash 4, and almost all of them are relegated to aggressively mediocre characters being matched up against the top tiers. Contrast that with Brawl where there were tons of characters of varying viability being invalidated by other characters due to broken game mechanics.

And it's disingenuous to bring up past Smash games to prove your point, especially when Smash 4 is the most balanced game in the franchise.

 

[R3D3MON]

re: Falcon vs Meta Knight

This matchup is viewed as more or less even (including by Ito), it's kinda similar to Fox in that his neutral game competes with MK's very well and he has a strong advantage state, but his poor disadvantage state pulls the matchup back towards us, especially offstage which is clearly one-sided. The difference is Fox is simply a better character overall.

Not many relevant & recent sets out there, there's only Ito vs Fatality to my knowledge. Can't remember if there's a good Falcon in Mexico or not.

By the way, if I had to give a MU to define 10:0, it would be vs .

Here is an example of MK vs Falcon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXSp87ZNxDI. TBH this was a while ago, but I think it still shows how extreme the matches can be. It also shows that a cpt. falcon player with very strong fundamentals (i.e. ZeRo) can swiftly defeat a very good meta knight player and make big comebacks, even after dying early to MK's kill setups. So really I think the cpt. falcon vs. MK MU depends a lot on player fundamentals and their ability to play patiently and shut down MK's gameplan by consistently winning neutral.

 

[Megamang]

TBQH unless we are talking about optimization, Zero isn't a great example for MU knowledge since he generally just outskills the other player. Like, if we followed his record we would say crazy aggressive Diddy beats everyone 65:35. And thats a pretty old video, both characters have been optimized since then.


I lol'd at "hes going for a footstool!" when he hit the uair... like, wut?

This is an old video and both players are going for suboptimal stuff.. Dthrow to UpB at 50%?

 

[Radical Larry]

Megamang I see what you're saying, but a person like me, I might have to take a long time to try understanding others on this forum. It's not going to be a short thing either, it takes time. And about my anger, that is something I NEED to control before EVO comes around, obviously. I'm going to do my best to understand others, you even, but like I said, I might take a long time, heck, I might not be able to fully understand players here.

Oh, and thanks about the EVO thing; if I manage to get the funds to get to EVO, I will bring the trophy to my home state.

 

[williamsga555]

Dedede's winning matchups are almost non-existent, and most (if not all) of them are pretty debatable.

I think he beats Ganon, Bowser, Jiggly, and Zard. It wouldn't take much convincing to tell me these are actually even, but I'd be a bit more hard-pressed to say he loses.

Already gone into detail of the Ganon matchup at least twice. Wouldn't be surprised if it's even, but I'm sticking to my guns for now.

Bowser is in a similar boat for similar reasons. We actually beat out his reach and juggle/edgeguard him hard, but we have a hard time dealing with proper fire breath usage and are still susceptible to throw combos.

Jiggly is one of the only characters we can reliably wall out. Her mobility is a nuisance, but she doesn't have much to actually threaten D3's zone, provided he plays carefully and doesn't get tricked into throwing out unsafe moves (well...unsafe for D3 standards, anyway...)

Zard is the most interesting, I think. Has a lot of the advantages of Bowser, but with a much harder-to-challenge recovery. His approach options aside from neutral b don't work well, though, and (stage choice depending) our vertical endurance hinders his otherwise absurd up throw. Going over it again I'm starting to lean more towards even, actually. Need more experience in the matchup.


On the other side of the scale, D3's worst matchups are very likely Mega Man, ZSS, and Bayonetta in no particular order. All of them feature combinations of stuff the King really doesn't like dealing with (removing mid-range options, good mobility, difficult-to-challenge recovery, kill setups that work early on D3) while also taking away some of his best strengths. I'm fairly convinced that Mega Man is the worst of the three, but honestly at that point it doesn't matter much.

 

[R3D3MON]

Megamang
I gave that as en example video because cpt. falcon really depends a lot on fundamentals, so the MU is really volatile and not really set in stone, just like many of MK's matchups TBH. Also d-throw > up-b at 50% isn't exactly suboptimal if you want to get some damage in, since you most like won't be connecting uairs on an opponent that DIs at 50%, such as ZeRo.

 

[Wintermelon43]

he does beat several characters imo but all of them except Puff (Puff is free for Dorf) are either close or arguable.
Personally i think he beats: (If miis are 1111 i'd say he murders brawler & beats swordfighter slightly)
Still, keep in mind that all of them except Puff are still either close or arguable, that's mostly just my opinion, also i really want to say we beat but i don't think i have enough exp against him to say that.
Also he definitely has even MUs.

Puff is defitenly not free for Ganon. In fact, that matchup is even or in Puff's favor slightly.

Jigglypuff's light weight makes her die extremely quickly. Ganon has aieral game ok enough to go up to the air to try to challenge her.

However, a Puff main won't just give you a free kill. You'll have to get a read. Which will be hard when Jigglypuff can combo you like crazy and hit you tons and tons with her aierals and up tilt. And combo you into oblivion.

Kirby and Wario aren't posisitive either.

As for King Dedede's matchup, I'd say Ganon is defitenly one. Both have bad frame data, and Dedede can easily hit Ganon due to this and then punish and combo him a ton.

 

[Asdioh]

I've brought this up before, but people act as if comeback mechanics are this new thing in fighting games that mess with the inherent competitive nature of the genre. It turns out, though, that fighters from almost the very beginning have had comeback mechanics, and they've been a pretty constant presence throughout.

For me at least, I don't have a problem with the fact that it's a comeback mechanic, what I don't like is how it breaks the game. Duck Hunt smashes not connecting, Boost Kick killing vertically before the last hit, low percent combos having their damage cut in half because of the higher knockback AKA "I am being punished for surviving for a long time"
Rage is an interesting idea, but it was poorly implemented. Not to say tripping was better, but I think tripping had far less of an impact on a game-by-game basis.


As for near-unwinnable matchups in Smash 4, I present to you, Kirby vs Sonic: Instead of a fighting game, you're playing tag, but the Kirby player has to run barefoot, and there is broken glass everywhere. Good luck!

 

[adom4]

Puff is defitenly not free for Ganon. In fact, that matchup is even or in Puff's favor slightly.

Jigglypuff's light weight makes her die extremely quickly. Ganon has aieral game ok enough to go up to the air to try to challenge her.

However, a Puff main won't just give you a free kill. You'll have to get a read. Which will be hard when Jigglypuff can combo you like crazy and hit you tons and tons with her aierals and up tilt. And combo you into oblivion.

Kirby and Wario aren't posisitive either.

As for King Dedede's matchup, I'd say Ganon is defitenly one. Both have bad frame data, and Dedede can easily hit Ganon due to this and then punish and combo him a ton.

We literally never have to get close to Puff, she has no reliable ways to get past our Nair, if the Ganon rushes in then sure Puff may win but you have nothing to force us to approach.
As i said the other ones are arguable but we definitely don't lose to Kirby for the same reasons as puff, we never have to approach, if we play lame the MU gets super boring & i believe Ganon can lame out Kirby a bit harder than Kirby can lame out Ganon.
Also we don't beat DDD, i'm with william on this one, it's either even or slightly in DDD's favor.

 

[Megamang]

I just picture puff having a hard time when ganon can force trades with uair. She is going to get some mileage on gimps in some games for sure, but still... having no range and no absurd speed or a projectile hurts against ganon. She has to go in enough that he gets his chances to swing at her, which is never a great place to be against ganon.

I would bet on it being very stage dependent. Though the survivability ganon gets from huge stages might be hampered by puff surviving longer + getting gimps when he gets knocked far enough away anyways, I still see rage ganon as a puff problem since eventually dtilt, ftilt, all his aerials, wizkick, and especially usmash are gonna start killing puff, or in usmashes case kill puff obscenely early.

What would cement her having a winning MU in my mind is some examples of true combos she has on gdorf, or truly unavoidable traps (like a combo that can only be escaped with airdodge, but he lands on the ground and she guarantee'd gets a nair... might as well be a combo), or some rest setups. I think fair-rest combos are some percents, but are those percentages deadly for ganondorf?

Finally... nothing that starts with utilt is gonna convince me, tbh. You should be SDIing out of long utilt chains. This isn't to mention, how the hell is jiggly going to land an utilt on a decent ganon when his normals outrange hers by miles, and the trades are probably some of the worst trades in the game? I just don't see how ganon gets in her combo zone without making a big mistake. And no, ganon isn't 'guessing for reads' constantly like people seem to visualize him as, at least against the lower half of the cast he has a semi-functional neutral due to his huge limbs and command grab.

Speaking of which, I feel like jiggly is another character that gets hurt from side B pretty bad, but im unsure. It just seems like light characters in general have a much worse time with gerudo, for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which is jiggly's terrible landing frame data.


Edit: Asdioh those things you listed as 'breaking the game' are mostly rewards for living a long time, excluding DHD's broken smashes... That is a mistake on the part of DHD's design and is probably fixable without changing rage.

I think rage reducing ridiculous combos early on is a good thing. For example, if you almost kill mario but he barely pulls out an usmash and gets you, he at least doesn't get 60% autocombos on your next stock immediately, while you have to try and kill him making comeback nearly impossible. Coming back is already hard enough with a stock deficit, no rage would make it worse AND the game more boring because every combo would look the same. One optimal BnB would emerge and we'd see whoever gets the first stock start his timeout, and punish anyone for approaching him with his huge combo.

And it generally helps the worst characters. Notably, our most dominant shiekah doesn't benefit much from rage at all compared to most, and still is the best character. It at least breaks her combos and makes d-throw uair have counterplay as simple as 'if i get a few more hits, she can't do it! and if she hits me, its working against that too, AND making it easier for me to kill her"

I like how it makes some moves combo moves and later kill moves, and also helps along with killing in the slower games. Sure it sucks when you hit sonic ones and he comes back and uthrows you for the kill, barely winning because you hit him... But I think by and large it helps the lesser characters greatly. It also feels nice to have a chance at a comeback, because after I get the first kill on a shiek who has taken me to 90% on my second stock, at least within a few hits i can get a hard read utilt and bring the game all the way back!


And don't compare it to the abomination of game design that was tripping. Tripping was terrible. It was a giant **** you to the competitive community. It could happen once per 1000 games and still be an abomination. It punished what, footsies? Existing? Doing anything but standing in place? It was garbage game design, garbage not only for its effect but for what it stated. Man i hated tripping. Even when I tripped after dash dancing as a taunt, it was like being reminded a dream was dead.

 

[adom4]

I actually don't like choke that much against Puff, she's too small & most of the time she's in the air anyway, i just Nairplane her to death lol.

 

[Loota]

• Lucario isn't a good edge guarder, he can't abuse Cloud's biggest flaw

Why bother going offstage when you can AS him every time he can't autosnap to the ledge with his upB? You shouldn't be going offstage against anyone in general, Lucario wants to sit on the edge with a partially charged AS ready when needed.

That matchup is bad indeed, but Lucario does have genuine strengths in it too. Don't take Cloud to BF/DL and he will have serious trouble landing against AS. Couple that with his uthrow followups needing to be jumped out of (or airdodge into other followups) to safely escape after not being guaranteed anymore, he will have to land a lot without midair jump left (which in turn can send him offstage). Also, you shouldn't be trying to outcamp him with AS, just stay in midrange, utilize his good foxtrot options and have a nearly charged AS ready so you're actually able to threaten whatever he's doing. Just never challenge any of his moves head to head in neutral and maximize your juggle/landing/edgeguard punishes and you're good to go. Make him fear your aura more than you fear his limit shenanigans too.

Still, it's the matchup I'd like to play the least alongside ZSS, his gameplan requires a lot less effort to succeed and in the end, his overtuned kit poops on all of our moves head on with superior mobility. Limit break also somehow exists on top of everything to make things even more stupid. It definitely affects Lucario's viability but just how much remains to be seen, it hasn't exactly been played that much in relevant settings.

On another topic, seems like a lot of people have really warmed up on Marth with his latest buffs and I have to agree. Now his reward is really starting to feel like it justifies his gameplan while not being somewhat overtuned like he was in the previous games. Any more buffs though and we'll all be hella scared.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I actually don't like choke that much against Puff, she's too small & most of the time she's in the air anyway, i just Nairplane her to death lol.

Those are some pretty crap Puffs you're playing aganist then. Good Puffs woudn't let you do that.

Also, I meant that Dedede Vs. Ganon is in Dedede's favor, sorry for the confusion.

For me at least, I don't have a problem with the fact that it's a comeback mechanic, what I don't like is how it breaks the game. Duck Hunt smashes not connecting, Boost Kick killing vertically before the last hit, low percent combos having their damage cut in half because of the higher knockback AKA "I am being punished for surviving for a long time"
Rage is an interesting idea, but it was poorly implemented. Not to say tripping was better, but I think tripping had far less of an impact on a game-by-game basis.


As for near-unwinnable matchups in Smash 4, I present to you, Kirby vs Sonic: Instead of a fighting game, you're playing tag, but the Kirby player has to run barefoot, and there is broken glass everywhere. Good luck!

I don't see that matchup worse than 30:70 for sure. Defitenly not unwinnable. That comparsion was hilarious though, in a good way.