Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[BananaBake]

Sadly Shulk is made obsolete by cloud and corn on the cob.
Man and I thought we had a niche with range.
At least we still have Monado arts

Kirby can get those too

 

[C0rvus]

I still contend that Rosalina sloppily farts on the stand-alone viability of more characters in the cast than anyone else. I'd argue that she has the most and closest things of the whole cast that resemble the "shut down" match ups of Brawl and Melee. Cloud might be a gatekeeper but Rosalina is the actual gate, sculpted out of stone and each of the towers being in the shape of hands giving the middle finger to the mid and low tiers.

It depends. Rosalina can wall out some characters, but Cloud just roflstomps most everyone below him. Definitely the fact that he's so easy hurts as well. Anyone can take the time to learn Cloud and crap on the likes of Lucario, Pac Man, Marth, Samus, Little Mac, etc. It seems like certain characters really struggle with Rosalina (like Doctor Mario), but everyone loses to Cloud.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'd argue Rosalina shuts down more options and does with more of a sense of ease than Cloud does. Got a projectile? Gravity well and Luma. Lack range? Luma. Mediocre recovery? Dair, bair, and their thousand mile and thousand year hitboxes. Dependable grab follow ups? Luma. Tilt follow ups? Luma. Slow grab? Luma. A big struggle with Rosa is simply getting Luma out of the way so that you can actually hurt her and, with that, Luma's only gone for a short amount of time and eats damage you normally would be giving to her.

 

[R3D3MON]

Anyways, I wanted to stop talking about Luigi and bring up a question about the other Bro:

I remember that one guy came on this forum and talked about how the metagame was advancing towards kill confirms. The person who has the easiest ways of killing will come out on top (or something like that) and that's why the bloke didn't even think of Pika as top 10. So, what about Mario? Where will Mario go if MK, ZSS, Sheik and other characters that have ways to end your game quickly end up rising in power (as in, even more power than what we're seeing now)? I can't see the plumber doing so hot, most likely dropping even further. But by how much? Do we think he'll stay in high tier, or nah?

Characters don't thrive in this meta with the "easiest ways of killing", they thrive with the most reliable ways of killing that may be difficult to execute properly (otherwise Bowser and DK would be top tier monsters).

Mario is status in the metagame will most likely go down (it already is kind of, if you look at G3 results and such) in the future. However, Mario does have actual kill confirms on wide variety of casts that people always seem to forget. D-throw > fair is a true combo on fastfallers with no DI, and works really well at the ledge. At very high percents (150%+), mario can actually kill off of d-throw > up-air or up-b (preferably up-air because up-air has higher knockback growth), similar to ZSS. Mario will most likely stay near the high tier range because Mario has the mobility to abuse his excellent CQC options, unlike Luigi (this is also why Mario has easier time "making reads" with up-smash for kills compared to Luigi, since Mario can actually GET IN). Another weakness that opponents may be able to abuse more easily in the future is Mario's recovery. He does not have much horizontal distance, and his up-b can actually be clipped by multi-hit aerials that spike, like Kirby's dair (trading with Kirby's dair while Mario recovers is most likely death for Mario). Also characters like Villager completely destroys Mario's recovery attempts by throwing out bowling balls and slingshots. Mario's gimpability may increase in the future, which most likely will bring down his placement in the tier list in the future. Overall, Mario will stay in the high tier range, but will certainly go futher down in the tier list in the future as people learn how to deal with Mario offstage.

Spoiler

Final thoughts on Luigi nerfs and Mario's viability in the meta (warning: a bit of ranting and rambling): The nerf means Luigi loses basically all combos after about 120%, while Mario still has true combos after 120%+. Mario has the mobility specs to actually allow him to make non-committal reads, while screwing up a read with Luigi will most likely end your stock at high % (Watch Con Con when he tries to make d-throw > tornado reads at high percents. He almost always loses a stock when he attempts it because people can airdodge out and immediately counterattack). This is also the reason why I hate it when people compare Diddy's nerfs to Luigi's nerfs, because the nerfs affected wildly different characters. Similarly, trying to use Luigi as justification for why Mario will not be high tier in the meta in the future is wrong because they are different characters with specifically different attributes that allows them to play very different games. Mario does not have the setbacks that Luigi faces, and thus Mario will most likely stay around high tier, while Luigi will most likely stay around mid tier. /endrant

 

[bc1910]

Since when did going even against most of high tier become a bad thing? Isn't that why people praise Pit so much? He only loses hard to Sheik and Pikachu, no one else is worse than 40:60, and even then there aren't a lot of those.
I disagree with Lucario being better than Falcon right now. If Lucario proves to be better as time goes on, I'm all for it. But at this current point in the meta, Falcon is still better than Lucario. ROB and DK have probably even worse top tier MUs than Falcon, especially ZSS. Hell, DK even struggles a bit with Falcon, and it's not like Falcon's just going to go away entirely.
I think Greninja is a better spot for 15, followed by Falcon and Ike then it gets a little harder to decide.

You want to be able to beat some high tiers. You need a reason to be picked over said high tiers when you probably have some bad MUs in there. The Pits get away with it because they don't have any really bad disadvantages either.

Falcon probably gets wrecked by MK as well. And I consider 40:60 to be -2; it's really hard to win a 40:60 at high or top level. Losing 40:60 is losing hard. So if you're saying Falcon loses 40:60 to other characters on top of "losing hard" to Sheik and Pikachu, then he actually loses hard to plenty of high tiers. In the current meta, he is worse than the characters you mentioned. They are doing far more impressive things. He's right behind ROB, though.

Honestly I think Greninja could be 15th, but the characters I put above him have better results and perform better against Sheik. Greninja outperforms them against other high tiers though. On a theory level, yes, Greninja would be my pick for 15th. I think he has too many "top tier" traits to not be.

Greninja will catch up to Lucario very quickly if his current results trend continues, anyway. The Pits might drop slightly, and we'll see a Toon Link/Lucario/Greninja triumvirate at the top of mid tier.

 

[Jalil]

I'd argue Rosalina shuts down more options and does with more of a sense of ease than Cloud does. Got a projectile? Gravity well and Luma. Lack range? Luma. Mediocre recovery? Dair, bair, and their thousand mile and thousand year hitboxes. Dependable grab follow ups? Luma. Tilt follow ups? Luma. Slow grab? Luma. A big struggle with Rosa is simply getting Luma out of the way so that you can actually hurt her and, with that, Luma's only gone for a short amount of time and eats damage you normally would be giving to her.

Idk bout that cuz if you look at her agreed isn't that good for a character that's said to be top 5. Gravity pull isn't an auto win vs projectiles, if a projectile based character can be dealt with by a stalemate then chances are they weren't that good in the first place. The Megaman vs Rosa mu is even, same for Link and Lucas. The rest of the projectile characters have no more than a -1 vs her. Luma doesn't eat damage for rosa unless you purposely attack it instead of her. If you only hit luma then you just misspaced.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

bc1910

No, pretty sure 7:3 is universally losing hard/-2 and ventures into necessitating a CP. 6:4 is closer to disadvantage/-1 than anything (doable, but statistically difficult).

Smooth Criminal

 

[ReRaze]

Isn't that why people praise Pit so much? He only loses hard to Sheik and Pikachu,

Just being picky but I think Sonic is the character Pit loses hard to. I mean if the Pit specialist Earth picks up Fox for the sake of that MU then it must be bad. Besides Nairo held his own really well against Esam using Dark Pit (albeit a while back), and Earth generally beats the Shieks in his bracket and does ok against Shieks who are arguably better than him as players e.g ZeRo and Rain. Yeah I wouldn't say those are the MU's he loses hard to. Not saying that he wins them but they aren't that bad

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Gonna give very brief rundowns of each character mentioned. Feel free to ask for more details. I'll explain further after school.

I actually consider Diddy a positive MU (though, I'd like to hear your side of it. I don't get many opinions from Diddy mains). Off stage is very dangerous for him, fireballs can sufficiently pressure him, and obviously our close range game is better than his. Throw combos are fully functional, but we can't over extend

Pika is very over rated, definitely still in our favor. The only way I feel threatened is off stage. Pika struggles for kills, and for damage racking because of his low damage output. And with even worse range than what we have, I don't see how Pika really wins with or without kill confirms. In the end of the day, Pika still seeks to struggle for kills more than we do.
.

Esam said on stream that both Concon and him believes the MU to be even or slightly in Pika favor now (they have played too), also Esam did not participate in the tier list vote irrc.

 

[Shaya]

Since when was zero suit not considered one of their hardest match ups too?
Perhaps the choice of using Dark Pit with the latest side-b has driven a big change? I guess that's possible [albeit it losing Pit's ability to snipe down-b's or tether attempts on her recovery, but I'd probably rate having a usable hard punish on ZSS over that].

 

[Fatmanonice]

Idk bout that cuz if you look at her agreed isn't that good for a character that's said to be top 5. Gravity pull isn't an auto win vs projectiles, if a projectile based character can be dealt with by a stalemate then chances are they weren't that good in the first place. The Megaman vs Rosa mu is even, same for Link and Lucas. The rest of the projectile characters have no more than a -1 vs her. Luma doesn't eat damage for rosa unless you purposely attack it instead of her. If you only hit luma then you just misspaced.

Those three you listed are kind of exceptions on the projectile front for a number of reasons. All three have projectiles that explode when they hit Luma and, in turn, usually hit Rosa too. For Megaman, crash bomb and leaf shield are pretty useful in this match up at a relatively close range if used right but Rosa can easily steal anything, especially the metal blade with gravity pull. This said, Rosa easily forces Megaman to approach. For Lucas and Link, they have other tools for spacing that don't involve projectiles. Both have zair and Link has pretty good range with his sword. Once again though, it's not hard for Rosa to force both to approach meaning that she's the one that keeps in control of the match up. In regards to Rosa negating options for heavy projectile users, compare this to the likes of Pac-man, Villager, and Ness and you'll get where I'm coming from.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Since when was zero suit not considered one of their hardest match ups too?
Perhaps the choice of using Dark Pit with the latest side-b has driven a big change? I guess that's possible [albeit it losing Pit's ability to snipe down-b's or tether attempts on her recovery, but I'd probably rate having a usable hard punish on ZSS over that].

I might be wrong but did Mars 3-0 Earth in losers bracket at genesis? He also 3-0ed komoriki to, I believe he used for 2 games as well. Both Mars and Nairo seem to have really good records against Sonic, especially Nairo.

 

[thehard]

Footstooling Bayo's recovery in between her two up-bs: practical? Inspired by Blue accidentally doing it today at the Break Weekly

 

[Shaya]

Funnily enough I believe I saw it yesterday on a Socal stream in VoiD vs Jacobsomething.
This could be one of the instances in which the height gained from a footstool jump plus many down air animations (some sort of somersault off in the z-axis) could be a Snake-esque type of punish if you otherwise miss footstooling her properly before the second one.

 

[Megamang]

Fatmanonice Megaman's gameplan shouldn't really fall apart Vs Rosaluma. That is, he will simply continue zoning while she gravity pulls stuff. Sure she may get 90% of the projectiles, but I don't see this being a danger if you simply continue zoning. Throwing a metal blade back at megaman isn't a problem in any MU (in fact I try and bait this consistently. Don't pick up a metal blade vs megaman unless you are close, or have a great glide toss) since pellets cancel it out. Ftilt -ftilt - nair is a nice anti luma tactic, as the nair sends luma reasonably far and is pretty safe. The only thing that is really frustrating about gravity pull is a either 1) being a stock down. This is pretty rough, and if you can't close it out quickly (take 70% extra credit or more) you are probably screwed, but that is the nature of a 2 stock meta anyways. and 2) it pretty much ruins u-air juggles, which is frustrating. But this isn't so bad, you can bait the Gpull and bair her. Fox is more annoying, by reflecting the air shooter back downwards.

As a mega main, I'd rather play Cloud than Rosalina. But, the general skill level of clouds seems to be lower than Rosa's, in my experience.


When talking about the Cloud matchup, it really isn't about who can gimp cloud. Unless your character is particularly bad at edgeguarding, you should be able to gimp cloud if things go well. Its more about getting him offstage, which is where most people struggle. Cloud could automatically explode when he was in the magnifying glass and it wouldn't effect his tier position drastically.

Mega is decent at this, again f-tilt into nair is a solid way to zone and push people offstage. Throws are decent as well. The biggest thing to learn against cloud is walking powershields, since many Cloud's rely on fair's ridiculous pushback for safety. Making them nair instead will save you a lot of damage in the long run.

Both rosalina and cloud will eventually have to approach megaman, I just find rosalina is able to sit in a safe zone and brick wall with Luma, while cloud doesn't have that luxery and is therefor susceptible to being put offstage.

 

[ReRaze]

I might be wrong but did Mars 3-0 Earth in losers bracket at genesis? He also 3-0ed komoriki to, I believe he used for 2 games as well. Both Mars and Nairo seem to have really good records against Sonic, especially Nairo.

Since when was zero suit not considered one of their hardest match ups too?
Perhaps the choice of using Dark Pit with the latest side-b has driven a big change? I guess that's possible [albeit it losing Pit's ability to snipe down-b's or tether attempts on her recovery, but I'd probably rate having a usable hard punish on ZSS over that].

It was 3-1 against Earth. That does say something I guess, but I haven't seen nearly enough Pit vs ZSS let alone at top level to really say anything about this MU, Idk how Earth does against Choco or one of the other Japanese ZSS either.

What's your take on the MU Shaya why do you say ZSS beats Pit hard?
I think it can get kinda volatile, its easy for ZSS to DownB pit out of his UpB, 2 frame or not due to it being not too fast and linear. At the same time ZSS' tether probably wouldn't be too helpful against Pit's long lasting aerials. Dark Pit's Side B kills ZSS substantially early and is always a threat ZSS has too look out for when throwing out nair or grabs. Is Pit easy for ZSS to combo/juggle? And then there is the Down B if ZSS whiffs a boost kick up high or near the ledge (which is the place boost kick is more likely to kill now after the nerf)

 

[Nobie]

I asked this question a thread or two ago, but now with EVO locking Miis to 1111, I want to bring it up again:

Let's say you were forced to use 1111 Miis, and that you weren't allowed to switch to different characters. How would you attempt to play these characters in competition? How would you try to get around their weaknesses and their bad moves? Would you try to play even safer, or would you try to take risks to make up for their flaws?

I was looking at 1111 Mii Brawler, which many people (rightfully) lament as being worse than a Helicopter Kicking, Feint Jumping version, and trying to formulate a general strategy for how Brawler should be utilized. He's a mix of a good, strong combo game with significant trouble fishing the opponent. He has slow and/or bad special moves. His smash attacks are either really laggy (f-smash), weak (u-smash), or disappointing in terms of range (d-smash), and both Shot Put and Aerial Assault are decent but inherently flawed.

Just in general, if he wants a kill at a fairly normal percentage he has to make a read or take a significant risk (like with side B). And if he wants safer moves to KO with, it take s a long, long time (like 150% or more on the opponent, not counting rage). At that point, he has a few options that mostly only work close to the ledge, like f-throw and nair. One problem with nair is that it's also his go-to approach, defense, and starter for combos and strings, so there's a high chance that nair will be stale as all hell.

To me, it looks like playing 1111 Brawler requires you to either hit the opponent so much that you can try to end a stock with one of your weaker attacks, or make a gamble to try and get reasonable KOs. The former introduces Rage like nobody's businesses, and the latter is just plain risky. If 1111 Brawler is to see any success, it likely has to come from finding the right balance between these two sides.

Edit: Re: Mega Man

Ninjalink mentioned that he thinks Mega Man has a decent matchup against Bayonetta. The ability to keep your distance to avoid Witch Time and stay at a range where Bayonetta has trouble retaliating are two benefits that Mega Man has in the matchup. Being fairly heavy and highly maneuverable in the air I'm sure also helps.

 

[BSP]

Those three you listed are kind of exceptions on the projectile front for a number of reasons. All three have projectiles that explode when they hit Luma and, in turn, usually hit Rosa too. For Megaman, crash bomb and leaf shield are pretty useful in this match up at a relatively close range if used right but Rosa can easily steal anything, especially the metal blade with gravity pull. This said, Rosa easily forces Megaman to approach. For Lucas and Link, they have other tools for spacing that don't involve projectiles. Both have zair and Link has pretty good range with his sword. Once again though, it's not hard for Rosa to force both to approach meaning that she's the one that keeps in control of the match up. In regards to Rosa negating options for heavy projectile users, compare this to the likes of Pac-man, Villager, and Ness and you'll get where I'm coming from.

Pac-Man can heal off of gravitational pull. He wins the stalemate if it comes to that.

 

[Halifax?]

~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Djmarcus44]

I asked this question a thread or two ago, but now with EVO locking Miis to 1111, I want to bring it up again:

Let's say you were forced to use 1111 Miis, and that you weren't allowed to switch to different characters. How would you attempt to play these characters in competition? How would you try to get around their weaknesses and their bad moves? Would you try to play even safer, or would you try to take risks to make up for their flaws?

I was looking at 1111 Mii Brawler, which many people (rightfully) lament as being worse than a Helicopter Kicking, Feint Jumping version, and trying to formulate a general strategy for how Brawler should be utilized. He's a mix of a good, strong combo game with significant trouble fishing the opponent. He has slow and/or bad special moves. His smash attacks are either really laggy (f-smash), weak (u-smash), or disappointing in terms of range (d-smash), and both Shot Put and Aerial Assault are decent but inherently flawed.

Just in general, if he wants a kill at a fairly normal percentage he has to make a read or take a significant risk (like with side B). And if he wants safer moves to KO with, it take s a long, long time (like 150% or more on the opponent, not counting rage). At that point, he has a few options that mostly only work close to the ledge, like f-throw and nair. One problem with nair is that it's also his go-to approach, defense, and starter for combos and strings, so there's a high chance that nair will be stale as all hell.

To me, it looks like playing 1111 Brawler requires you to either hit the opponent so much that you can try to end a stock with one of your weaker attacks, or make a gamble to try and get reasonable KOs. The former introduces Rage like nobody's businesses, and the latter is just plain risky. If 1111 Brawler is to see any success, it likely has to come from finding the right balance between these two sides.

Edit: Re: Mega Man

Ninjalink mentioned that he thinks Mega Man has a decent matchup against Bayonetta. The ability to keep your distance to avoid Witch Time and stay at a range where Bayonetta has trouble retaliating are two benefits that Mega Man has in the matchup. Being fairly heavy and highly maneuverable in the air I'm sure also helps.

For 1111 gunner, I would go for some mixups in order to help me get the kill since Gunner's biggest weakness is the lack of a reliable kill confirm. While Gunner has some relatively fast killing options (frame 5 up tilt that kills around 135, Down tilt is frame 8 and kills around 130, and down smash is frame 9 with good killing power for a smash attack), I would also use gunner's jab at kill percents since the jab combo can be canceled into a variety of killing options (these follow ups are listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread). I would also use up smash to kill an opponent that rolls or jumps from the ledge (it is also good for punishing an opponent that tries to punish a whiffed charge blast or flame pillar since it comes out on frame 11).

In order to make it safer for Gunner I would mix up my recovery by Gundashing to the stage with fair or stalling with reflector. I would also use flame pillar or fair to help cover my recovery.

While I don't play 1111 brawler that much, I would try to take risks in order to get kills (up smash is a good move to use at kill percents since it comes out on frame 8 and Brawler's legs are invincible for most of the move). This is because 1111 Brawler lacks the range in the neutral to be played safely. It is also harder to play safely with 1111 brawler since 1111 brawler has a substandard disadvantage state due to a poor recovery.

 

[HFlash]

Hell, DK even struggles a bit with Falcon

DK and Falcon is pretty even imo. Both can edge guard the other nastily, both can abuse the other's poor disadvantaged, and Falcon can't just freely dashgrab him; DK's CQC is pretty dam good with his intangible limbs and great frame data.

I see cloud's 3 main weaknesses are
1. Exploitable recovery
2. All his tilts, jabs are punishable on block (except tip of ftilt)
3. Minimal grab combos

If he had a hoo-hah, a mario level up-b, a better ground game, we're looking at Brawl MK in my opinion.

Cloud's disjoints are so insane given his kill power and frame data

His dtilt is actually safe if positioned right. Sort of like MK's DA if you go past their shield.

 

[wm1026]

Not when those throw combos can easily wrack up 35+% at the start of stocks, consistently tack on over 15% per grab, and lead into no less than three kill moves. And it gets better the more stale the throw is. It lets Ike wrack up damage faster than Corrin can, and Ike has more killing options. When so many things between the two characters are similar, something like an amazing throw grab can make the difference for overall usability.

Also for the record, Ike has a kill throw as well. And I'd argue Ike's Usmash>Corrin's Usmash even with the funky sour spot at the end. That Usmash can just absolutely crush somebody trying to get up from the ledge: covers rolls, jump, get up, and attack with the right spacing.

I'd argue Corrins buttons are overall better than Ike's though. Corrins uair has more range and kills close to if not as early as Ike's. It has so much range in fact that it catches jump. I may be wrong but I believe Corrins fair and or nair are faster than Ike's. Both also combo into each other and up air which kills. Corrins and Ike's back air are basically the same. Corrins f smash on also catches the get up and roll option on ledge. Corrins up smash is not to be used to cover above options (up tilt) it is used when you know you can land it for a usual early kill. Corrin can true combo uncharged and fully charged into a fully charged bite that puts on a lot of percent and can kill as early as 80% I believe. Corrins side b combos into the kick (can also combo into up air at certain percentage) that also puts on a good bit of percent and kills and comes out quickly with instant side B. Ike's grab game only works if Ike can get in close enough to grab which is the opposite of what his entire almost wants and with his mobility isn't the easiest thing to do. Ike is a good character but with Corrins projectile, kill options, and range I believe he has more potential than Ike.

 

[Megamang]

I think overall ike has more kill options than corrin though. The grab confirms into kills near the ledge, which is huge because in ledge situations it is pretty damn easy to get a grab, compared to landing a smash. Corrin's nair is a great move, and is pretty easy to land a hit with, but Ike's nair has stronger confirms (I believe). Ike's dtilt has stronger confirms. Ike's uair is stronger and lingers intensely after the buffs. Ikes bair is better, with more active frames and it not launching him is pretty nice for spacing in my opinion. These are the moves which I can say are, in more situations than not, better than Corrin's. The side B is way better for corrin, and corrin actually has functional smashes.

There are situations where ike's counter is better, such as dropping offstage and using it for gimping, where Corrin's won't do anything but tack on a little damage and end the advantage situation. That said, corrin's counter is a great move and is generally stronger, especially in disadvantage, double especially against juggling characters.

Corrin's dair is awesome for escaping juggles and in some mixup situations, as it does a ridiculous amount of damage. Corrin's fair isn't as big or as strong, but at lower damage (and in some kill ranges) the fact it combos sets it apart.

They are really different characters, especially with the difference in the grab games and corrin's specials in neutral. I think more than comparing them, we can say they are a solid pair, as some Ikes have been utilizing corrin to great success.

 

[Ffamran]

I'd argue Corrins buttons are overall better than Ike's though. Corrins uair has more range and kills close to if not as early as Ike's. It has so much range in fact that it catches jump. I may be wrong but I believe Corrins fair and or nair are faster than Ike's. Both also combo into each other and up air which kills. Corrins and Ike's back air are basically the same. Corrins f smash on also catches the get up and roll option on ledge. Corrins up smash is not to be used to cover above options (up tilt) it is used when you know you can land it for a usual early kill. Corrin can true combo uncharged and fully charged into a fully charged bite that puts on a lot of percent and can kill as early as 80% I believe. Corrins side b combos into the kick (can also combo into up air at certain percentage) that also puts on a good bit of percent and kills and comes out quickly with instant side B. Ike's grab game only works if Ike can get in close enough to grab which is the opposite of what his entire almost wants and with his mobility isn't the easiest thing to do. Ike is a good character but with Corrins projectile, kill options, and range I believe he has more potential than Ike.

Ike's Uair is active for 17 frames to Corrin's 6 frames. Different uses. Ike's is used to catch air dodges and landings while Corrin's more of a "hit" move. Of course Ike's Nair and Fair are slower than Corrin's. He's swinging a heavy hand-and-half while Corrin's swinging a light, but long sword. Also, you can be as strong of a human or beorc as you want, but Corrin's part-Dragon. That overrides anything just like how Cloud being a SOLDIER - not a SOLDIER, but biologically like a SOLDIER - means screw you to Ike and Shulk. That being said, Ike's Nair also setups into other moves, overall does more, but insignificantly more damage, and can act as a trick because it shares the same startup as Fair. Also, it lasts 4 more frames, 16, to Corrin's 12. Both their fairs are active for 4 frames, but Ike's is meant for horizontal killing while Corrin's is meant for vertical setups. Note: you absolutely do not want his Fair to be any faster. If it was the same as Corrin's at frame 7, it would arguably be one of the best Fairs in the game. Moving on, their Bairs are not the same. I've no idea how you can conclude that. Corrin's moves her forward, is weaker doing 11% clean at frame 13 and 9% late at frame 14 to 16, and the base knockback is 10 higher at 40, but that doesn't matter when overall, Corrin's doing 3% to 5% less than Ike's always 14% from frames 7-9. Also, Corrin can't auto-cancel hers from a hop unlike Ike. Corrin's Bair is more of a utility move to Ike's raw kill and bait move.

For Smashes and Specials... You really cannot compare anything, but their Counter and Corrin's Counter Surge just outright wins because of vertical hit angle to pretty much everyone not named Corrin, Greninja, and Lucario's? horizontal Counter hits. That being said, Counter Surge wouldn't be as great when horizontally-orientated Counters are used as edgeguards. They'd be the same or horizontal ones are slightly better because they're closer to the side blast zones and can gimp instead of launching up and potentially saving instead of killing. Corrin's Up Smash is Greninja, Lucina, Marth, and Sheik's Up Smash. None of them can setup without platforms or customs. The need for precision really limits its use and as an anti-air, the lack of I-frames like on Sheik's and low active frames compared to Ike and Roy's makes it less useful and more riskier since Corrin could just opt for Utilt. Speaking of Utilt, Ike's is used for land traps and ledge options too and it kills fairly well. So... Also, outside of Up Smash, Ike's Smashes are pretty much trash in a 1v1 setting. Side Smash's power and anti-air potential is overlapped by Up Smash and Down Smash's coverage is overlapped by Up Smash. Y'know, I just noticed those overlaps... Really, developers? Really? Yeah, let's make one move do everything the other 2 moves are supposed to be doing... Getting Diddy Uair flashbacks here... Anyway, you could get rid of his Side and Down Smash and Ike would only be slightly annoyed he's missing moves in 1v1, but pissed in FFA and +2v+2 where chaos can help him land those moves.

Also, considering that Ike is a launch character while Corrin is among the final DLC characters... Of course Corrin has more potential? It's only been a month. If everything or about 70% of a character can be figured out in a month, then that character was very poorly designed. As DLC, then that would be a complete ripoff.

 

[ARGHETH]

I'd argue Corrins buttons are overall better than Ike's though. Corrins uair has more range and kills close to if not as early as Ike's. It has so much range in fact that it catches jump. I may be wrong but I believe Corrins fair and or nair are faster than Ike's. Both also combo into each other and up air which kills. Corrins and Ike's back air are basically the same. Corrins f smash on also catches the get up and roll option on ledge. Corrins up smash is not to be used to cover above options (up tilt) it is used when you know you can land it for a usual early kill. Corrin can true combo uncharged and fully charged into a fully charged bite that puts on a lot of percent and can kill as early as 80% I believe. Corrins side b combos into the kick (can also combo into up air at certain percentage) that also puts on a good bit of percent and kills and comes out quickly with instant side B. Ike's grab game only works if Ike can get in close enough to grab which is the opposite of what his entire almost wants and with his mobility isn't the easiest thing to do. Ike is a good character but with Corrins projectile, kill options, and range I believe he has more potential than Ike.

First, Corrin's Bair is not like Ike's considering Ike's comes out F7 while ours is almost double that. It also kills earlier.
Uair has the same knockback as Ike's, does one less damage, and comes out in half the time. It's slightly better than Ike's. Fair is different from Ike's, since Ike uses it at the end of combos to tack on damage or kill, while Corrin uses it in the middle of combos. Nair is similar; it's a combo extender and starter that covers his entire body. Dair, obviously, is a lot better.
Usmash is basically Sheik's; it has the same stats when tippered (I swear half of Corrin's moveset has the stats copypasted from somewhere else).
DFS --> Bite is nice, but probably not happening too often. It's a nice surprise move, though.
I don't think it's that hard to get grabs as Ike, considering its speed is normal and it doesn't have range issues. I get plenty of grabs as Robin, and Robin's grab...isn't that great.
Overall, I think that Corrin is slightly worse than Ike considering Ike's reward off grab is miles ahead of Corrin's, but Corrin has a bunch of other nice stuff (Fsmash, DFS, DL, Nair) to make it close.

 

[C0rvus]

Man, Lucas seems to have no wind behind his sails atm. Last I heard of him was HaKii getting second at that Shockwave tournament, what, over a month ago? He seems like a legitimately good character. Is it just that noone plays him because he's been drowned out by Ness being good? Is he bad? What do people think? He seems decent to me. Combo and kill throws, one of the best tether grabs, what looks like pretty good neutral and offstage game.

 

[wm1026]

Ike's Uair is active for 17 frames to Corrin's 6 frames. Different uses. Ike's is used to catch air dodges and landings while Corrin's more of a "hit" move. Of course Ike's Nair and Fair are slower than Corrin's. He's swinging a heavy hand-and-half while Corrin's swinging a light, but long sword. Also, you can be as strong of a human or beorc as you want, but Corrin's part-Dragon. That overrides anything just like how Cloud being a SOLDIER - not a SOLDIER, but biologically like a SOLDIER - means screw you to Ike and Shulk. That being said, Ike's Nair also setups into other moves, overall does more, but insignificantly more damage, and can act as a trick because it shares the same startup as Fair. Also, it lasts 4 more frames, 16, to Corrin's 12. Both their fairs are active for 4 frames, but Ike's is meant for horizontal killing while Corrin's is meant for vertical setups. Note: you absolutely do not want his Fair to be any faster. If it was the same as Corrin's at frame 7, it would arguably be one of the best Fairs in the game. Moving on, their Bairs are not the same. I've no idea how you can conclude that. Corrin's moves her forward, is weaker doing 11% clean at frame 13 and 9% late at frame 14 to 16, and the base knockback is 10 higher at 40, but that doesn't matter when overall, Corrin's doing 3% to 5% less than Ike's always 14% from frames 7-9. Also, Corrin can't auto-cancel hers from a hop unlike Ike. Corrin's Bair is more of a utility move to Ike's raw kill and bait move.

For Smashes and Specials... You really cannot compare anything, but their Counter and Corrin's Counter Surge just outright wins because of vertical hit angle to pretty much everyone not named Corrin, Greninja, and Lucario's? horizontal Counter hits. That being said, Counter Surge wouldn't be as great when horizontally-orientated Counters are used as edgeguards. They'd be the same or horizontal ones are slightly better because they're closer to the side blast zones and can gimp instead of launching up and potentially saving instead of killing. Corrin's Up Smash is Greninja, Lucina, Marth, and Sheik's Up Smash. None of them can setup without platforms or customs. The need for precision really limits its use and as an anti-air, the lack of I-frames like on Sheik's and low active frames compared to Ike and Roy's makes it less useful and more riskier since Corrin could just opt for Utilt. Speaking of Utilt, Ike's is used for land traps and ledge options too and it kills fairly well. So... Also, outside of Up Smash, Ike's Smashes are pretty much trash in a 1v1 setting. Side Smash's power and anti-air potential is overlapped by Up Smash and Down Smash's coverage is overlapped by Up Smash. Y'know, I just noticed those overlaps... Really, developers? Really? Yeah, let's make one move do everything the other 2 moves are supposed to be doing... Getting Diddy Uair flashbacks here... Anyway, you could get rid of his Side and Down Smash and Ike would only be slightly annoyed he's missing moves in 1v1, but pissed in FFA and +2v+2 where chaos can help him land those moves.

Also, considering that Ike is a launch character while Corrin is among the final DLC characters... Of course Corrin has more potential? It's only been a month. If everything or about 70% of a character can be figured out in a month, then that character was very poorly designed. As DLC, then that would be a complete ripoff.

I did not feel knowledgable on the two bairs so I generally said they were close to each other when looking back on it I shouldn't have said anything about it at all since I did not know. That's my fault. I think you are right in that Ike and corrin function differently so we probably shouldn't be comparing as closely as we are just because a few moves look similar. When I said potential I meant potential to be higher on the tier list in the end.

First, Corrin's Bair is not like Ike's considering Ike's comes out F7 while ours is almost double that. It also kills earlier.
Uair has the same knockback as Ike's, does one less damage, and comes out in half the time. It's slightly better than Ike's. Fair is different from Ike's, since Ike uses it at the end of combos to tack on damage or kill, while Corrin uses it in the middle of combos. Nair is similar; it's a combo extender and starter that covers his entire body. Dair, obviously, is a lot better.
Usmash is basically Sheik's; it has the same stats when tippered (I swear half of Corrin's moveset has the stats copypasted from somewhere else).
DFS --> Bite is nice, but probably not happening too often. It's a nice surprise move, though.
I don't think it's that hard to get grabs as Ike, considering its speed is normal and it doesn't have range issues. I get plenty of grabs as Robin, and Robin's grab...isn't that great.
Overall, I think that Corrin is slightly worse than Ike considering Ike's reward off grab is miles ahead of Corrin's, but Corrin has a bunch of other nice stuff (Fsmash, DFS, DL, Nair) to make it close.

Again I was wrong to talk about bair as I did not know entirely what I was talking about. DFS can also be comboed into an aerial side b that can kill. If your opponent jumps toward corrin and air dodges DFS reading it with a bite can also kill. Ike will get grabs but not to the extent of someone like Diddy.

 

[Megamang]

This is a hard game to be a zoning oriented character in, when the top tier either shuts it down with one move (needles), outrewards' you so hard they have a big advantage (ZSS, Bayo) or completely invalidate projectiles with some sort of reflect or absorb (Rosa, Ness in a way...)

I think Lucas is a solid mid or high tier, and I think as people perfect their Lucas we will see a slight surge. He just isn't overwhelmingly good DLC, so it will take a while for him to gain momentum. It also hurts him that his following in Brawl was all about advanced movement techs, and he doesn't have any of those. His awesome absorber also isn't useful in many many MUs... Ok, if needles are going to be freakin transcendent they should also be energy based! What are they right now... magic metal?

 

[Kofu]

This is a hard game to be a zoning oriented character in, when the top tier either shuts it down with one move (needles), outrewards' you so hard they have a big advantage (ZSS, Bayo) or completely invalidate projectiles with some sort of reflect or absorb (Rosa, Ness in a way...)

I think Lucas is a solid mid or high tier, and I think as people perfect their Lucas we will see a slight surge. He just isn't overwhelmingly good DLC, so it will take a while for him to gain momentum. It also hurts him that his following in Brawl was all about advanced movement techs, and he doesn't have any of those. His awesome absorber also isn't useful in many many MUs... Ok, if needles are going to be freakin transcendent they should also be energy based! What are they right now... magic metal?

One thing that sets Lucas apart from the other zoning character is his grab game which has a reward par excellence. Most zoners have a bad to mediocre grab and throw game but Lucas has a potent combo throw and three throws that are in the top percentile for killing. You get to 150% and Lucas has a little rage (or not if you're light) and you're probably dead if he grabs you. He's also got one of the best tether grabs in the game.

 

[HeavyLobster]

First, Corrin's Bair is not like Ike's considering Ike's comes out F7 while ours is almost double that. It also kills earlier.
Uair has the same knockback as Ike's, does one less damage, and comes out in half the time. It's slightly better than Ike's. Fair is different from Ike's, since Ike uses it at the end of combos to tack on damage or kill, while Corrin uses it in the middle of combos. Nair is similar; it's a combo extender and starter that covers his entire body. Dair, obviously, is a lot better.
Usmash is basically Sheik's; it has the same stats when tippered (I swear half of Corrin's moveset has the stats copypasted from somewhere else).
DFS --> Bite is nice, but probably not happening too often. It's a nice surprise move, though.
I don't think it's that hard to get grabs as Ike, considering its speed is normal and it doesn't have range issues. I get plenty of grabs as Robin, and Robin's grab...isn't that great.
Overall, I think that Corrin is slightly worse than Ike considering Ike's reward off grab is miles ahead of Corrin's, but Corrin has a bunch of other nice stuff (Fsmash, DFS, DL, Nair) to make it close.

Ike doesn't have great grab range or mobility, but his strong disjoints are threatening enough for it to be fairly easy to tomahawk grab them. Ike's jab and tilts are better excepting Utilt, and his Dash Attack is far more threatening. Corrin does have better Smashes and probably slightly better aerials though. In terms of buttons they're probably a wash.

 

[Trifroze]

I myself used to say ZSS' punish game in Smash 4 was unmatched, but I think the whole thing about ZSS having massive reward is starting to be a somewhat dated view now. Almost no one dies to the bnb combo anymore except with rage shenanigans (not because of the patch, but because people have learned to deal with it), and people are starting to DI nair -> flip kick upwards near the ledge more and more, avoiding the meteor hitbox every time as they should.

Down smash near the ledge into flip kick is the only guaranteed early kill setup for ZSS, and what comes to simple damage several characters in the game can match ZSS' damage output (30-50%) in a single string. Not to mention many of them get their combos started from safer options including grabs. ZSS in my opinion is not in the same class as MK, Ryu or apparently Bayonetta when it comes to reward. I think even DK and possibly Bowser have her beat in that regard just because of their grabs.

ZSS has partially been carried by a lack of (DI) knowledge, and as such her dominance will only decrease over time. Not saying she'll fall any more than someone like Snake did in Brawl (and in this game it matters less because top tiers are way more balanced), but this is why I always kept rambling about the "ZSS is clearly top 2" mindset. Choco pretty much brought Smash 4 ZSS into attention and made it abundantly clear she's a top 10 character, then Nairo picked her up, improved upon it and made it clear she's a top 5 character. That much is fair, but somehow in the process several people actually started calling her #1.

Then there's Pikachu who's an even more sinful case. Why is it so hard to see inconsistent killing options and a light weight are a considerable problem when paired together?

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm not sure if we will have one last patch but I'm kinda thinking we will. Something about Version 1.1.5 just seems right to me. And I can bet the amount of For Gloryers complaining about Witch Time is overwhelming. So if there is, all I can say is let's take a breath and hope for the best for every character.

Most for Glory-ers I've seen have a low opinion of Bayonetta, actually. Well I do too but not nearly as much as the others. At the more intermediate level Witch Time is basically all she has. Poor damage output, meh frame data, low mobility, poor grabs, and lag isn't helping her combos either. As far as most people are concerned she has massive issues closing stocks, like nearly Duck Hunt level. Lower then that and it's worse because her smashes are bad and her recovery is weird.

Since when was zero suit not considered one of their hardest match ups too?
Perhaps the choice of using Dark Pit with the latest side-b has driven a big change? I guess that's possible [albeit it losing Pit's ability to snipe down-b's or tether attempts on her recovery, but I'd probably rate having a usable hard punish on ZSS over that].

Let's be honest here Shaya. None of us Pit players here could really say for sure. I mean, can you even say for sure how the matchup goes? There's not a ton of optimization in the Pits in general, much less at tippy top level with both players understanding both characters fully. I've flip-floped so much at the higher matchups I've kinda just given up on rating them. I'm going to be optimistic about them, though, because it really could just be one person who teases out these one or two things and pretty much turns the matchup around.

 

[Megamang]

I'd still argue that when ZSS hits you, you are going to take more punishment that most of the cast. Though the examples you mentioned might have her beat in that, none apply safe ranged pressure like her nair does. She is a very beatable top tier for sure, but I still see her punish game as tippy top. Though the nerf did hurt, as it really was ridiculous how early you would die to boost kick even with proper DI. She is in a perfect place right now.


As for Lucas... his dthrow actually has the best frame advantage of any throw, if I recall correctly. Its pretty awesome. I was watching someone use Lucas, I forget who, and I noticed they were using dair out of their throws as it works great as a DI chase due to its high active frames, and also maintains a tech chase/advantage situation more than uairing them once/twice and then its neutral again. That said, people learning to SDI due to Bayonettas being everywhere will hurt him a little, since you should always be able to get out of nair, but he can adapt pretty easily since he has a pretty good set of aerials besides nair. Actually, all his tools are pretty solid. Great tilts, great aerials, solid zair, and pretty useful smashes. Usmash seems to be the least useful, and it can make some crazy good comebacks on a hard read or platform situation.


That said, I feel like as soon as I reach kill throw %, it is fairly easy to predict the grab and keep him out. If only PK Thunder had a little less endlag, he would have a much better advantage/chase/followup game. That said, I think he is totally tournament viable, with just a few really rough MUs. I don't think Rosalina is one of those btw, for PK mains he is a nice switch from Ness for that MU, although the characters are so dissimilar that you might as well main any 2 from the cast at that point, unless you really like recovering with PKT2

 

[Shaya]

It was 3-1 against Earth. That does say something I guess, but I haven't seen nearly enough Pit vs ZSS let alone at top level to really say anything about this MU, Idk how Earth does against Choco or one of the other Japanese ZSS either.

What's your take on the MU Shaya why do you say ZSS beats Pit hard?
I think it can get kinda volatile, its easy for ZSS to DownB pit out of his UpB, 2 frame or not due to it being not too fast and linear. At the same time ZSS' tether probably wouldn't be too helpful against Pit's long lasting aerials. Dark Pit's Side B kills ZSS substantially early and is always a threat ZSS has too look out for when throwing out nair or grabs. Is Pit easy for ZSS to combo/juggle? And then there is the Down B if ZSS whiffs a boost kick up high or near the ledge (which is the place boost kick is more likely to kill now after the nerf)

Pit's neutral isn't entirely special against her, in fact a lot of their tools are similar in certain abilities but you have ZSS being a more rewarding character.
Pit sorely deals with ZSS flip jumping away from things and her general mobility.
He's still a swordsmen who generally lacks the safety that's been gained by many of the other swordies through the patch cycle.

Lazy spacing with nair can be side-b fodder definitely, but I think the aerial which Pit most struggles with is back air. A lot of his poking tools are straight lines/finicky (fair, bair, dtilt) likes hers, and ZSS abuses her shortfalls that exist on other characters pretty hard. Back Air is going to be out pacing and spacing all of Pit's aerials most of the time.


But yeah, Dark Pit uber side-b. A now even lighter ZSS, raw up-b's not killing as much as before (out of shield, dash) and while a grab-prone kit the mess up is severe. Maybe one of Pit's hardest match ups but not so much Dark Pit.

I myself used to say ZSS' punish game in Smash 4 was unmatched, but I think the whole thing about ZSS having massive reward is starting to be a somewhat dated view now.

Same.
DLC new comers and some others are just as / more rewarding. Her easy grab match ups with a lot of the cast has become less prominent with the patch cycle.

DI/knowledge is a factor (people trying to shield drop punish nair~), but Limit Cross Slash and other inspired genius ideas from Sakurai is a much bigger one to me.
This doesn't mean those new/buffed characters won't deal with tournament-level players developing counterplay in the medium to long term. However, they at least have standard grabs, amazing base stats (weight, speed, dash to shields, etc), large hitboxes [BIGGER IS BETTER, don't bother matching things to limbs/articles accurately like you did with the release cast~] and their respective god moves/set ups with less than 50 frames of lag.
The result is obvious. ZSS is still incredibly good, but she's not rewarded as consistently as characters who are easier than her to play/falter less in attrition (bar against Sheik perhaps).
Rather than organically having a character fit into the meta, later characters were most definitely focused towards shaking up the competitive game.
I have issues with developers trying to fit square pegs into round holes at a balance level. Sure Snake was amazing and I miss him eternally, but he was also silly for many nonsensical reasons.

 

[ぱみゅ]

To me ZSS has two versions:

1. Low risk above-average reward, in which she uses paralyzer to condition opponents, throws her low-commitment aerials to space, and juggles with Uair while not truly committing to a deep combo.

2. High risk extreme reward, that one style with tons of grabs, extended combos, and throwing both Boost Kick and (buffered) Flip Kick to catch opponents and kill them at 40, but neither is 100% guaranteed so the commitment comes with a risk. Is it worth it? Just look at Nairo.

Of course she can go back and forth with both (actually, at top level she should).

 

[Trifroze]

What comes to fitting blocks through round holes, I was thinking the other day that "jank characters" are probably good for the community overall as long as that jank isn't excessive. It creates variety and makes characters more recognizable and on the long run more memorable as well. Of course if it's excessive (<1.0.6 Diddy) then it's just bad, not just for the metagame, but for the community as a whole because the reputation of the game starts to suffer at that point. As long as jank comes in reasonable amounts though, it probably just creates a more interesting cast, a more interesting community and ultimately a deeper metagame as well. Really though, I'm not even sure the Luigi nerf was necessary in the end. If anything, I put a lot of hours practicing the matchup and the patch made it all less relevant.

Need to tie this more to the subject?

uhh zss is the origin queen of jank ?

 

[Ghostbone]

Corrin is better than Ike because Corrin can actually escape juggles reasonable well with nair or sometimes dair, and the threat of counter is always there even if it's not used.

Ike's disadvantage is complete trash.

 

[Shaya]

What comes to fitting blocks through round holes, I was thinking the other day that "jank characters" are probably good for the community overall as long as that jank isn't excessive. It creates variety and makes characters more recognizable and on the long run more memorable as well. Of course if it's excessive (<1.0.6 Diddy) then it's just bad, not just for the metagame, but for the community as a whole because the reputation of the game starts to suffer at that point. As long as jank comes in reasonable amounts though, it probably just creates a more interesting cast, a more interesting community and ultimately a deeper metagame as well. Really though, I'm not even sure the Luigi nerf was necessary in the end. If anything, I put a lot of hours practicing the matchup and the patch made it all less relevant.

Need to tie this more to the subject?

uhh zss is the origin queen of jank ?

I don't disagree either. Strong abilities need to exist. And when you try to think about what one could do with Snake without doing more damage than good, it isn't easy.

I suppose the square peg here is a character you want to be popular at low level (for the much wider audience) with the caveat that there won't be at least 2-4 years of development behind them (or 8, 15, 19 years behind them) with the round hole being ensuring they're definitely viable.
We could play this is a terrible idea a game of pretend where any character already existing was developed post-release and brought onto the world now.
Zero Suit's plasma whip would still kill and not be easy to fall out of, pseudo float thing (which now kinda exists on Bayo), down tilt wouldn't be ridiculously laggy, up air would hit below her and flip kicking wouldn't have landing lag. Oh and bouncing fish would've definitely still been killing at 80% (or maybe even still have that meteor on it... *shudder*).

But as we know such things wouldn't be necessary for a game that's been so critically successful as it has thus far.

On your Luigi point, if the focus of the game's balance is to have an assortment of top tiers available (I could imagine Sakurai genuinely thinking this is what we wanted...), a lot of the nerfs characters have received were superfluous. When characters like Little Mac, Falcon, Luigi, Yoshi, ROB, Lucario, Greninja (and maybe Diddy+Sonic) are very likely worse characters than newer ones it seems like clear signs of dissonance in this creative work.

 

[NairWizard]

Although you said it's a terrible idea I have to do this anyway:

We could play this is a terrible idea a game of pretend where any character already existing was developed post-release and brought onto the world now.

Oh my God, Pikachu with his 64 b-air.

Sakurai pls

Would fix every problem that the character has ever had, from poking to killing to just generally being able to do something in the air that threatens people in some fashion (no one is scared of Pikachu's f-air, though d-air doing 12% is decently threatening), and wouldn't be nearly as ridiculous as Heavy Skull Bash.

 

[ReRaze]

Pit's neutral isn't entirely special against her, in fact a lot of their tools are similar in certain abilities but you have ZSS being a more rewarding character.
Pit sorely deals with ZSS flip jumping away from things and her general mobility.
He's still a swordsmen who generally lacks the safety that's been gained by many of the other swordies through the patch cycle.

Lazy spacing with nair can be side-b fodder definitely, but I think the aerial which Pit most struggles with is back air. A lot of his poking tools are straight lines/finicky (fair, bair, dtilt) likes hers, and ZSS abuses her shortfalls that exist on other characters pretty hard. Back Air is going to be out pacing and spacing all of Pit's aerials most of the time.


But yeah, Dark Pit uber side-b. A now even lighter ZSS, raw up-b's not killing as much as before (out of shield, dash) and while a grab-prone kit the mess up is severe. Maybe one of Pit's hardest match ups but not so much Dark Pit.

http://youtu.be/Y2gN_Fua-dI Watching Earth vs Marss the MU seemed heavily punish based with both characters benefitting more from defensive/reactive gameplay, e.g even shorthopping in this MU would be a punishable commitment with both characters having no quick aerials to cover the space in front of them and therefore can be punished on reaction. With ZSS having the more rewarding and safer tools I can see this going in ZSS' favour but at the same time Pit is capable of playing more defensive than ZSS with him having the better projectile to force approaches (although this isn't as helpful on stages with platforms due to full hop arrows being useless).

Looks like Earth did have trouble dealing with bair when just above the ground due to having no quick options to beat it or get away. Airdodging here would most likely mean a hard punish. Zair is also a tool that outspaces everything Pit has and is near unpunishable. At higher percents Down B dealt with her bair well though. Although tbh I can't really say Earth played this MU optimally, especially in his punish game and he was a little more aggro than usual, he's normally really defensive.

but yeah overall I can see this being one of Pit's harder MU's and not so much Dark Pit if he uses a well timed punish to super armour through an aerial or just as a really hard punish, something Pit doesn't have. But still this MU doesnt seem as bad as sonic. I wish the arms didnt clash with spindash :\


Anyways, on another note what's still keeping ZSS arguably second to shiek when compared to the other DLC characters? If it's punish game, safety/good aerials (bair,nair) and ability to get out of bad situations/recover wouldn't bayonetta be a contender? She even has witch time as icing on the cake.