Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

Although you said it's a terrible idea I have to do this anyway:



Oh my God, Pikachu with his 64 b-air.

Sakurai pls

Would be maining the ****** from day of release for sure.
I could imagine things such as side-b being easy to throw out at mid range, more thought out interactions possible with each of the different 'nuances' of thunder (the cloud, the bolt, it hitting you, it not hitting you, etc). Down Air of course would be Cloud-tier, allowing follow ups into thunder~

Remember: liberal usages of invincibility, large hitboxes and moves with sub 10 frame start up that can kill at 50%
[why am I still going oh god no I'm going to regret this so much when I wake up]

Anyways, on another note what's still keeping ZSS arguably second to shiek when compared to the other DLC characters? If it's punish game, safety/good aerials (bair,nair) and ability to get out of bad situations/recover wouldn't bayonetta be a contender? She even has witch time as icing on the cake.

She is still the most developed top tier character in the cast right now. With multiple strong mains with results at many levels of play.
But at the theory level, it would really be about her mobility specs and long range zoning and trap tools keeping her above the others. Zair is good, paralyzer is good, back air+nair+jab are good. Tether recovery on a special is also fantastic.

 

[bc1910]

bc1910

No, pretty sure 7:3 is universally losing hard/-2 and ventures into necessitating a CP. 6:4 is closer to disadvantage/-1 than anything (doable, but statistically difficult).

Smooth Criminal

Not sure about this as many people have started to argue that 45:55 is a -1 and 40:60 is -2.

This is why I prefer simple numbers to ratios.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Limit Cross Slash is actually beyond broken, Cloud's best move and among the best moves in the game in a vacuum. Multihit (tears through many spotdodges/rolls/airdodges and Ryu's Focus), almost 1/3 of a stock in damage, kills most characters at 100 or sub 100 if near the ledge, can be used aerially or out of a dash, and is more or less safe on block (a few characters can punish, if they have insane run/dash speed like Sonic or Falcon). You can even use this move to 2-frame some characters on their recoveries for guaranteed death, which is really ridiculous.

It also decimates shields [I think you're shieldlocked during it too] in addition to having enough range and active frames to catch some character during their backwards roll [kind of like the second hit of Pit's fsmash]. The "best" option I can think of to deal with that move is rolling behind Cloud. It just so happens that Cloud's everything else covers that option amazingly well to the point that there's hardly a point in ever going for it.

It's funny because just yesterday I have talked with Yikarur about it in the German Smash 4 Skype group and we both agreed that the move is broken as hell.

 

[|RK|]

Not sure about this as many people have started to argue that 45:55 is a -1 and 40:60 is -2.

This is why I prefer simple numbers to ratios.

But... why? 40:60 as -1 is intuitive. 40:60 -> 4:6 -> -1 for the left and +1 for the right (from 5:5).

 

[Diddy Kong]

We could play this is a terrible idea a game of pretend where any character already existing was developed post-release and brought onto the world now.

Brawl Diddy, double bananas baby.

 

[Ghostbone]

But... why? 40:60 as -1 is intuitive. 40:60 -> 4:6 -> -1 for the left and +1 for the right (from 5:5).

Out of 10 ratios is also what every single other fighting game uses for their matchup ratios. (which 4:6 being a slight disadvantage)

But smash players like to pretend their game is balanced by saying no matchup is worse than 65:35, but then call that unwinnable (ie. a 9:1 or 10:0 matchup).

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Not sure about this as many people have started to argue that 45:55 is a -1 and 40:60 is -2.

This is why I prefer simple numbers to ratios.

As Ghostbone said, Smashers love to consider themselves special snowflakes in how they label things (sometimes). There's nothing wrong with out of ten ratios until you start splitting them into fractions. Like seriously, what the hell is 65:35, anyways? Or 55:45? Slightly not-winnable? Slightly not-disadvantaged? It's clearly trying to encapsulate/codify wayyyyyy too many factors when taking MUs into account, as well as (in some cases) ignoring the reality of them.

I agree that simple numbers and possibly verbiage (advantage, even, disadvantage, etc.) are better overall, though. They're clearer, more concise. But if you're gonna use ratios, use 'em right.

Smooth Criminal

 

[~ Gheb ~]

100:0 ~ vs
90:10 ~ vs
80:20 ~ vs
70:30 ~ vs ... vs ... vs
60:40 ~ vs ... vs ... vs

Examples of how I like to look at things.

Edit: Smooth Criminal

I still think .5 ratios are legit. Some matchups just are neither "here" [ie 60:40] nor "there" [ie 70:30] so ratios like 65:35 are fine if they're used reasonably. I'd personally even say they're necessary if you wanna be really accurate with matchup ratios.

 

[bc1910]

I mean, it's not my fault if other people are moving the goalposts on MU ratios. 45:55 was considered virtually even in Brawl and now some are calling it -1.

Which is entirely why I hardly bother with them. Creates fuss over nothing when we're actually talking about the same level of adv/disadv, with -1 being soft counter and -2 being hard counter.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I mean, it's not my fault if other people are moving the goalposts on MU ratios. 45:55 was considered virtually even in Brawl and now some are calling it -1.

It could be argued that you're perpetuating it, which is why I even bothered to mention something in the first place.

Shaya , @Thinkaman, ya'll better consider making MU labels consistent and universal for the sake of discussion.

Edit: ~ Gheb ~

What does the .5 account for, exactly? Some weird, wiggy nuance of a character that can be more easily rationalized as part of the MU interaction itself?

Smooth Criminal

 

[bc1910]

Could also be argued that it wasn't worth mentioning when we have exactly the same interpretation of the basic advantage/disadvantage numbers.

But anyway, this is going nowhere.

On .5 ratios: There can quite easily be nuances in MUs that skew things very slightly in one character's favour. Considering the difference is essentially the difference between winning 5 more matches in every hundred, it's small but can still be noteworthy. For the most part though, I do think whole numbers suffice.

Incidentally ~ Gheb ~ why do you think Wario vs Cloud is as bad as 80:20? It's not a MU I'm familiar with. I can see why Wario would lose but I'm curious as to why he loses so badly.

 

[DblCrest]

I don't really bother with ratios anymore since the slightest :05 can get people jumping on you for 'spreading misinformation' or for claiming a match up is insanely one sided =/

Funnily enough I believe I saw it yesterday on a Socal stream in VoiD vs Jacobsomething.
This could be one of the instances in which the height gained from a footstool jump plus many down air animations (some sort of somersault off in the z-axis) could be a Snake-esque type of punish if you otherwise miss footstooling her properly before the second one.

That sounds pretty difficult , what happened in the stream when it worked?

I just keep fretting over getting caught in witch twist and getting stage spiked . Or even eating an after burner kick and letting her get another one in for returning to the stage. Then Dair-ed :S

 

[Smog Frog]

Incidentally ~ Gheb ~ why do you think Wario vs Cloud is as bad as 80:20? It's not a MU I'm familiar with. I can see why Wario would lose but I'm curious as to why he loses so badly.

i'm not gheb but it's porbably for the following reasons:
would rather sit back and wait for waft to charge, but could use that sitting back and doing nothing to charge his own trump card, which charges 18.3x faster(110/6=18.3) and is just as deadly. so, seeing as cant really afford to sit back and wait for waft to charge passively, he has to try to get in and engage ...which doesnt really go to well. his nair outranges all of his aerials and grounded moves, and it's safe on block. aerial blade beam has a big fat vertical hitbox, and he can maneuver during the endlag. trying to get through the wall is very difficult for , and sitting back doesnt really go to well as that would let obtain multiple limit breaks per stock. he really cant do anything.

its a shame how limit break is basically a better waft in every way.

 

[Luco]

Man, Lucas seems to have no wind behind his sails atm. Last I heard of him was HaKii getting second at that Shockwave tournament, what, over a month ago? He seems like a legitimately good character. Is it just that noone plays him because he's been drowned out by Ness being good? Is he bad? What do people think? He seems decent to me. Combo and kill throws, one of the best tether grabs, what looks like pretty good neutral and offstage game.

I play him and do well in my scene, but I guess we all know how this story ends - "I do well with this character at locals so they're world-class high tier!"

That being said I really think Lucas has good things going for him and it really is a problem of representation. It's just, I'm not gonna try to shove that opinion down everyone's throats because right now the magic just isn't happening.

But really when it comes down to it, The Ness and Lucas communities are probably the most crossed over of communities for non-clone characters in Smash. SO many Ness mains can at least use Lucas competently. Most have one as a main and the other as a secondary. Some co-main them.

One thing that sets Lucas apart from the other zoning character is his grab game which has a reward par excellence. Most zoners have a bad to mediocre grab and throw game but Lucas has a potent combo throw and three throws that are in the top percentile for killing. You get to 150% and Lucas has a little rage (or not if you're light) and you're probably dead if he grabs you. He's also got one of the best tether grabs in the game.

It'll kill even mid-weights at around the 140's with rage, as attested to Mario dying at 139% with Lucas at 50% - http://smashboards.com/threads/pk-rage-up-throw-percentages-updated-for-1-1-4.407973/

And PK Hoohah also does the trick even earlier. It's just a shame when people start playing around grab at high percent, you have to start PK Fire zoning and try and force a landing trap scenario.

I'd still argue that when ZSS hits you, you are going to take more punishment that most of the cast. Though the examples you mentioned might have her beat in that, none apply safe ranged pressure like her nair does. She is a very beatable top tier for sure, but I still see her punish game as tippy top. Though the nerf did hurt, as it really was ridiculous how early you would die to boost kick even with proper DI. She is in a perfect place right now.


As for Lucas... his dthrow actually has the best frame advantage of any throw, if I recall correctly. Its pretty awesome. I was watching someone use Lucas, I forget who, and I noticed they were using dair out of their throws as it works great as a DI chase due to its high active frames, and also maintains a tech chase/advantage situation more than uairing them once/twice and then its neutral again. That said, people learning to SDI due to Bayonettas being everywhere will hurt him a little, since you should always be able to get out of nair, but he can adapt pretty easily since he has a pretty good set of aerials besides nair. Actually, all his tools are pretty solid. Great tilts, great aerials, solid zair, and pretty useful smashes. Usmash seems to be the least useful, and it can make some crazy good comebacks on a hard read or platform situation.


That said, I feel like as soon as I reach kill throw %, it is fairly easy to predict the grab and keep him out. If only PK Thunder had a little less endlag, he would have a much better advantage/chase/followup game. That said, I think he is totally tournament viable, with just a few really rough MUs. I don't think Rosalina is one of those btw, for PK mains he is a nice switch from Ness for that MU, although the characters are so dissimilar that you might as well main any 2 from the cast at that point, unless you really like recovering with PKT2

In regards to Lucas, the MUs he seems to do noticeably better than his PK Bro include and arguably , though tbh I think both PK bros beat Falcon (Falcon mains seem to think they beat us though, and I've never seen this played out at top level so who knowssssss). Ness on the other hand will be a far better pick against and those cats. I think both are probably semi-decent against Bayo.

 

[Nobie]

If I could make any one change to Cloud, it would just be to reduce the amount of limit meter he gets when hit. He should have Limit, and it should be great, but the fact that attacking him charges his meter so much more quickly than him attacking or having to charge it himself makes you feel like you're being punished for attacking him in a way that Rage doesn't even come close to.

I believe that Limit fully charges when Cloud takes 100% worth of damage without any other factors. Make it 200% and I think it wouldn't be so terrifying, and he can still attack and Down B to fill the meter anyway.

 

[Jamurai]

re: Falcon vs Meta Knight

This matchup is viewed as more or less even (including by Ito), it's kinda similar to Fox in that his neutral game competes with MK's very well and he has a strong advantage state, but his poor disadvantage state pulls the matchup back towards us, especially offstage which is clearly one-sided. The difference is Fox is simply a better character overall.

Not many relevant & recent sets out there, there's only Ito vs Fatality to my knowledge. Can't remember if there's a good Falcon in Mexico or not.

By the way, if I had to give a MU to define 10:0, it would be vs .

 

[adom4]

re: Falcon vs Meta Knight

This matchup is viewed as more or less even (including by Ito), it's kinda similar to Fox in that his neutral game competes with MK's very well and he has a strong advantage state, but his poor disadvantage state pulls the matchup back towards us, especially offstage which is clearly one-sided. The difference is Fox is simply a better character overall.

Not many relevant & recent sets out there, there's only Ito vs Fatality to my knowledge. Can't remember if there's a good Falcon in Mexico or not.

By the way, if I had to give a MU to define 10:0, it would be vs .

If i remember correctly vs & were also considered 10-0 MUs.

 

[L9999]

If i remember correctly vs & were also considered 10-0 MUs.

Speaking of Ganon having bad MUs, what characters Ganon beats or goes even in Smash 4? He loses so many MUs it made me wonder.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What does the .5 account for, exactly? Some weird, wiggy nuance of a character that can be more easily rationalized as part of the MU interaction itself?

Ike neither does as poorly against Sheik as Greninja does [30/70], nor does he have as much of a chance at beating her as Rosalina does [40/60]. It just seems like the next logical step to classify it as 35/65. The .5 doesn't account for anything specific except for the fact that by design smash is a bit more complex than your average, traditional fighter. Too complex to allow us to classify all matchups on an "out of ten" scale with what I consider sufficient accuracy.

Incidentally ~ Gheb ~ why do you think Wario vs Cloud is as bad as 80:20? It's not a MU I'm familiar with. I can see why Wario would lose but I'm curious as to why he loses so badly.

Dude, that matchups blows so hard.

vs was already about 3/7 in Marth's favor and is pretty much on steroids.

 

[Yikarur]

I tested counterplays to limit cross slash.
- it does not shield lock
- you can spotdodge between the third and fourth and the fourth and fifth hit to gain a frame advantage

It's super risky because if you mess-up you die, but at least it's punishable somehow.

 

[adom4]

Speaking of Ganon having bad MUs, what characters Ganon beats or goes even in Smash 4? He loses so many MUs it made me wonder.

he does beat several characters imo but all of them except Puff (Puff is free for Dorf) are either close or arguable.
Personally i think he beats: (If miis are 1111 i'd say he murders brawler & beats swordfighter slightly)
Still, keep in mind that all of them except Puff are still either close or arguable, that's mostly just my opinion, also i really want to say we beat but i don't think i have enough exp against him to say that.
Also he definitely has even MUs.

 

[Yikarur]

The Ganon: Gunner MU is probably pretty "bad" because you cannot escape sideB as all and he can't kill Ganondorf reliably so it's a prime example of 1000 hits doing nothing while Ganondorf has to hit 4-5 to seal the stock.
Could still be even because Ganondorf is so bad tho

 

[adom4]

The Ganon: Gunner MU is probably pretty "bad" because you cannot escape sideB as all and he can't kill Ganondorf reliably so it's a prime example of 1000 hits doing nothing while Ganondorf has to hit 4-5 to seal the stock.
Could still be even because Ganondorf is so bad tho

I only played this MU with customs and while Dorf does lose it's not that bad because of Gunner's awful recovery and medikcre kill options.
Also if your talking about fire pillar that move is ass lol, it's piss easy escaping it.

 

[Blobface]

There's enough matchups for Dorf that I'd argue are even that I don't see the point in listing them. A lot of character boards think they beat Dorf because they beat him a neutral (which they do), but to win against Ganon it's far more important to minimize his reward, hence why he has trouble against characters with strong recoveries, good disadvantage states, and good options when flame choked.

 

[warionumbah2]

Not many relevant & recent sets out there, there's only Ito vs Fatality to my knowledge.

Tyrant beat Fatality. Tearbear has a horrible record against both Ito and Tyrant. Since Ito came back to Socal for school Tearbear hasn't beaten him. Fatality pockets MK for some reason after his saga ended. The MUs anything but even.

But smash players like to pretend their game is balanced by saying no matchup is worse than 65:35, but then call that unwinnable (ie. a 9:1 or 10:0 matchup).

The truth.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Cloud's not going to throw out Limit Cross Slash at a point when you could be shielding it unless its done out of a super hard read.

Cloud's buffed mobility and the move's active hitbox is begging for it to be used for landing traps, recoveries, and airdodge reads.

 

[meleebrawler]

i'm not gheb but it's porbably for the following reasons:
would rather sit back and wait for waft to charge, but could use that sitting back and doing nothing to charge his own trump card, which charges 18.3x faster(110/6=18.3) and is just as deadly. so, seeing as cant really afford to sit back and wait for waft to charge passively, he has to try to get in and engage ...which doesnt really go to well. his nair outranges all of his aerials and grounded moves, and it's safe on block. aerial blade beam has a big fat vertical hitbox, and he can maneuver during the endlag. trying to get through the wall is very difficult for , and sitting back doesnt really go to well as that would let obtain multiple limit breaks per stock. he really cant do anything.

its a shame how limit break is basically a better waft in every way.

Too bad he doesn't have his "free gimp" waft (Rose).

 

[Planty]

This said, Rosa easily forces Megaman to approach.

I see people saying this a lot so I might as well clear it up now; Rosalina doesn't force projectile characters to approach. Ever. She can force melee based characters to approach because she could Luma jab them from halfway across the stage, but against projectile characters, they'll just throw stuff at Luma if you try that.

Against projectile characters, your options are to create a stalemate with GP or find a way to approach without shielding too much because shielding gets Luma knocked away (Unless Luma hasn't taken much damage) which causes you to retreat or wait for Luma to fly back to you.
It's true that Rosalina tends to have at least doable MUs against projectile based characters, but that's not because she decimates them in neutral.

 

[meleebrawler]

If I could make any one change to Cloud, it would just be to reduce the amount of limit meter he gets when hit. He should have Limit, and it should be great, but the fact that attacking him charges his meter so much more quickly than him attacking or having to charge it himself makes you feel like you're being punished for attacking him in a way that Rage doesn't even come close to.

I believe that Limit fully charges when Cloud takes 100% worth of damage without any other factors. Make it 200% and I think it wouldn't be so terrifying, and he can still attack and Down B to fill the meter anyway.

The thing is taking damage is the it works in his game (and the only way), so from a faithfulness perspective it makes sense that it's the fastest way to charge.

A more logical nerf would be toning down manual charge speed. That way he doesn't get disproportionate reward for just knocking people offstage and not following through or star KOs, and takes some of the pressure off more defensively minded characters.

This way it'd basically be a less extreme Mac KO Punch: usually only getting one per stock, two if doing well, not quite as lethal but no risk of losing it from hits either.

 

[PK Gaming]

100:0 ~ vs
90:10 ~ vs
80:20 ~ vs
70:30 ~ vs ... vs ... vs
60:40 ~ vs ... vs ... vs

Examples of how I like to look at things.

Edit: Smooth Criminal

I still think .5 ratios are legit. Some matchups just are neither "here" [ie 60:40] nor "there" [ie 70:30] so ratios like 65:35 are fine if they're used reasonably. I'd personally even say they're necessary if you wanna be really accurate with matchup ratios.

Don't you think you're being a little dramatic with some of these ratios?

I don't deny that some of these matchups are bad, but Smash 4 isn't a game where matchups can get to 10-0 / 9-1 extremes. It's completely different from say... Carl vs Tager in BBCT, where Carl had to touch Tager once to win a match, but even that was considered 8-2.

Cloud vs Wario doesn't feel like a 8-2. It's a difficult matchup for Wario, but definitely winnable. Reflex played and won against Sc4tt's pocket Cloud, proving that the matchup isn't as open as shut as you think.

EDIT: Maybe @TheReflexWonder and @Spinosaurus can weigh in on the discussion.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

no no

Brawl D3 vs. Brawl DK was literally unwinnable at top level. I dunno about Bayo/Ganon being 9:1 (except in theory), but yeah, that was a horribly skewed MU in Brawl.

~ Gheb ~

I'm gonna kind of have to agree to disagree here. I just feel like the .5's are literally something that you could consolidate into the end result of a MU discussion without diluting Smash's inherent complexity and interplay.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Megamang]

Limit charge would be fine if it didn't have limit cross slash backing it up. Between Beam Blade, Finishing Touch, and a significant mobility boost, Limit is already a solid tool for cloud. But now that people are learning to really abuse Limit Cross Slash, his limit stage is terrifying for how often he gets it. While counter play exists, that move is insanely strong in the neutral and advantage. As someone else said, you shouldn't be hitting shield... You simply play the same game with your (now better) incredible normals, which is very safe and applies such pressure that the onus is on the opponent to 'break the cycle' of your extremely terrifying neutral. The window for hitting a LCS is miniscule, down to you pressing the wrong button, missing a grab, or even SHing in some MUs and the cloud comes up and smashes your face for high damage, a relatively low damage kill (probably one of the best kill options, comparable to Ness's bthrow in kill range and utilty), and to top it all off, past low damage he gets half his limit charge back or more! I mean, limit is supposed to be central to his game and terrifying in how it works, but I think finishing touch is terrifying enough. LCS could kill a little later and still be a really great neutral tool. Anyways, I don't have much problem with Cloud honestly, but again he has a lower average skill base that is only growing. When I do face a solid cloud, its an uphill battle... but it focuses on getting him offstage to burn limit, or to gimp him when he doesn't have limit.

And, forcing him to approach. I think most people would do better in the MU if they didn't see the Limit Charge as a 'you must approach now' sign. I mean, i get it has all the good things I said, but they only improve if you try and force your way through the buster sword. Take stage control, or encroach on Cloud's space somehow, but don't go charging in. Make him worry about being gimped in the events that follow charging limit, don't make him know he presses his lagless charge button and you come running in.


Another ZSS tool I see rarely mentioned is her amazing jab. Its the combination of a great escape move, the tied-for-fastest CQC option, huge normal, and importantly the mobility to choose her engagements with all those tools. If most characters could catch her for a well placed Flip Kick escape it'd be one thing, but she is noticably faster than almost anyone and that is huge in smash. Usually the huge disjoint characters are not that mobile, and can't land and f1 bully you for trying anything. She does struggle with MU specific stuff like proper powershielding, but she is still a monster. #2, not sure, Dabuz has been scaring me with Rosa, Cloud is incredible, Bayonetta still needs to be seen, and finally my Megaman is dope ( ) but she is definitely top 5 in my sight.

 

[PK Gaming]

no no

Brawl D3 vs. Brawl DK was literally unwinnable at top level. I dunno about Bayo/Ganon being 9:1 (except in theory), but yeah, that was a horribly skewed MU in Brawl.

Smooth Criminal

Oh I know, I was specifically talking about Smash 4. I don't think there are any matchups in this game that remotely approach the level of nonsense that was Brawl D3 vs DK.

 

[Yikarur]

I only played this MU with customs and while Dorf does lose it's not that bad because of Gunner's awful recovery and medikcre kill options.
Also if your talking about fire pillar that move is *** lol, it's piss easy escaping it.

I was talking about the MU being bad for Gunner and I talked about Ganondorfs sideB. Dtilt catches tech away and without a tech dtilt is guaranteed.. it's pretty horrible.

 

[Big-Cat]

100:0 ~ vs
90:10 ~ vs
80:20 ~ vs
70:30 ~ vs ... vs ... vs
60:40 ~ vs ... vs ... vs

Examples of how I like to look at things.

Edit: Smooth Criminal

I still think .5 ratios are legit. Some matchups just are neither "here" [ie 60:40] nor "there" [ie 70:30] so ratios like 65:35 are fine if they're used reasonably. I'd personally even say they're necessary if you wanna be really accurate with matchup ratios.

What the hell is with these ratios? The only ones that are accurate are the 60:40 ones.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Don't you think you're being a little dramatic with some of these ratios?

Maybe, maybe not.

If Bayonetta can safely shut down Ganon's entire approach options with a single move she has virtually no chance of losing it. Even if Ganon somehow managed to get Bayonetta into her 'disadvantaged' state her options would likely trump his, that's how ridiculous this matchup is. I don't exactly see what's wrong with the ratio tbh. If Ganon vs Bayonetta happens to happen in top level play would actually expect Ganon to take even a single match? I doubt he'd even come close to it so I don't see what's so dramatic about alling it 90:10.

Cloud completely destroys Wario. Wario has virtually no chance of winning it and Reflex beating Scatt means exactly nothing in this context. Reflex is the best Wario player in the world an a top level player in general. Scatt is good but "only" high level, not top and his Cloud is only a secondary character. If you want to use results as empirical evidence that's good and all but then the matchup has to be played out on somewhat even terms. If the Cloud and the Wario player are on the same level and the Cloud player actually mains the character ... Wario cannot win it. Not like he could against Marth in Brawl.

 

[DanGR]

That D3 vs DK ratio is most assuredly referring to the Brawl matchup, in case anyone is confused.

 

[Jams.]

Yikarur already addressed this, but here's a video of someone rolling out of Limit Cross Slash from the old CCI thread.

 

[Halifax?]

How can a MU possibly be 10-0 if the other character has a victory screen animation

 

[PK Gaming]

Maybe, maybe not.

If Bayonetta can safely shut down Ganon's entire approach options with a single move she has virtually no chance of losing it. Even if Ganon somehow managed to get Bayonetta into her 'disadvantaged' state her options would likely trump his, that's how ridiculous this matchup is. I don't exactly see what's wrong with the ratio tbh. If Ganon vs Bayonetta happens to happen in top level play would actually expect Ganon to take even a single match? I doubt he'd even come close to it so I don't see what's so dramatic about alling it 90:10.

Cloud completely destroys Wario. Wario has virtually no chance of winning it and Reflex beating Scatt means exactly nothing in this context. Reflex is the best Wario player in the world an a top level player in general. Scatt is good but "only" high level, not top and his Cloud is only a secondary character. If you want to use results as empirical evidence that's good and all but then the matchup has to be played out on somewhat even terms. If the Cloud and the Wario player are on the same level and the Cloud player actually mains the character ... Wario cannot win it. Not like he could against Marth in Brawl.

I was aware of the difference in skill, but I was trying to posit that if Wario vs Cloud was truly 8-2, then a high level player should theoretically be able to beat, or come very close to beating a top level player in such an extreme matchup. But it wasn't even a particularly close match. Furthermore, Reflex himself even talks about difficult matchups for Wario after the set, but doesn't bring up Cloud (though it's very possible that he hasn't fought any strong Clouds yet).

I'm just... having a hard time buying that it could that difficult for Wario without actually seeing it in practice. Is there any footage of that matchup being played at high levels between equally skilled players? It would be easier to accept your position if I saw it play out.

EDIT: As for Ganondorf, i'm willing to concede that it could potentially be that bad, but I honestly don't care about the character.