Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Deleted member]

bc1910 : Yes Wario was really difficult to place for me honestly. Abadango used this character a lot, and had decent results with Pac-Man and Wario. I still think Wario is extremely viable, but under-utalised. That made it real hard for me to place him. There's never really been one strictly loyal Wario main who places high. I do think he has about as much potential as he had in Brawl tho!

@Feelicks : Is Palutena in this game!? Yeah, jokes aside... I literally forgot about her. But she might hold as much potential as Samus. Honestly, I really don't know that much about her, other than that no Customs screws her over completely. From reading this thread tho, she's probably Samus-tier.

Er, TheReflexWonder? He got top 8 at at both MLG and Tipped Off 11. The reason he doesn't go to majors or nationals much because he doesn't travel often out of his area. He's also ranked #1 on Georgia state PR. With that said, I do agree that Wario is a solid character, but I can imagine why he has such a small (albeit dedicated) playerbase considering his high learning curve and iffy high/top tier MUs.

For the record when it comes to Palutena, she's a bad character no way around it, but she still has neat tools (invincible bair and dash attack, decent combo throw in form of dthrow, solid aerials, mobility & jab cancel) and placings, even if her ones at high level are still lacking. Prince Ramen is even ranked #1 here in Central Florida PR, and he's a solo Palutena main.

 

[Sonicninja115]

No idea what you mean. Genesis 3 wasn't this weekend...



This sounds like it's not even worth mentioning.

The Texas tourney had Dabuz, Hyuga, Esam, MVD and most of the texas talent.

 

[G. Stache]

G. Stache : Yes I know Luigi doesn't fare badly against the Top Tiers. But which matchup do you think he outrighely wins in Top Tier? Diddy used to be a good matchup for Luigi untill Diddy got buffs in KO Power, and Luigi nerfs in the same regard. So I'd now consider it even, maybe slightly in Diddy's advantage. Fox is probably in the same category for Fox, and Luigi isn't beating his brother or Sonic either. Ryu and Pikachu are also most likely bad matchups (less confident about Pikachu- but Pika is overrated anyway). And now you also mention Cloud as a bad matchup, I don't think Luigi is gonna be all too impressive without a better character to cover up his weaknesses. His nerfs could've also contributed to not too many people playing him now, so in a way, he's much like Wario. Got potential, but under-utalised.

Gonna give very brief rundowns of each character mentioned. Feel free to ask for more details. I'll explain further after school.

I actually consider Diddy a positive MU (though, I'd like to hear your side of it. I don't get many opinions from Diddy mains). Off stage is very dangerous for him, fireballs can sufficiently pressure him, and obviously our close range game is better than his. Throw combos are fully functional, but we can't over extend

Pika is very over rated, definitely still in our favor. The only way I feel threatened is off stage. Pika struggles for kills, and for damage racking because of his low damage output. And with even worse range than what we have, I don't see how Pika really wins with or without kill confirms. In the end of the day, Pika still seeks to struggle for kills more than we do.

Recent results make me question the Fox MU, but I don't know whether to call it even or winning just yet. I want to look more into that.

Ryu, from what I've heard, seem even. Don't know what exactly to think about the MU, tbh. Probably better off asking Ryus that question. Good Ryus are hard to come by, so I don't feel confident with my experience to fully have a say in that MU.

The thing with Sonic is that both sides consider it even, but I've seen arguments to it being slightly tipped in Luigi's favor. I could dig through a thread or two to try to find one post on that.

Cloud: not good, but not bad. Simply put: if he's offstage by a decent amount, then he's probably not landing back onto the stage. But, he's a nuisance while onstage. Not convinced that it's worse than -1. His disadvantage is kinda ****e in this MU.

I have one question: why do you personally see DK as better than Luigi? To my knowledge, DK loses to a lot of players in the top/high tiers. What makes him so good in your eyes? Is it the results, or am I blatantly wrong on DK's spread? Honest question: I'm very unfamiliar to DK.

 

[wm1026]

Curious to know why the consensus of Corrin is lower than I would have expected. just wondering what I might be missing. He has good kill power in counter, up air, f smash, Bair, and fang shot. He has great range that combos into his other moves. His side B is quick, can kill, comboed into, and can be mixup heavy. It can be argued that he is on the slower side but in combination of his range and quick side B, I believe this makes up for it. His recovery isn't the best but it does have invulnerable frames and has a wide hitbox on it. I just don't see any of his buttons being bad. Arguments can be made for dair and ftilt, but I know you can dair off stage footstool your opponent killing them and make it back. With good spacing I'm having trouble seeing any lower than high tier. I know it's a little stretch but I almost feel like most of Corrins move set is what Marth wanted to be. Thoughts?

 

[Jams.]

~ Gheb ~ , do you still feel that Germany is the strongest Smash 4 country within Europe? Based on ROF Winter 2016 (admittedly kind of old at this point) and Cannes Winter Clash results, I feel like there's a strong argument for France being the strongest country. The lack of French representation at Beast 6 makes it tough to say definitively though. You could make an argument for The Netherlands as well, but my current (and possibly completely incorrect) understanding is that Mr. R, iStudying, and S1-14 are a level above the rest of the scene.

The Texas tourney had Dabuz, Hyuga, Esam, MVD and most of the texas talent.

This event, TGC 6, also wasn't last weekend however. It's a shame that this event couldn't be finished though.

I have nitpicks about your ordering but it barely matters; your choices are perfect.

I'd move Wario up though because the character definitely has legs. A few results are there and his MU spread is solid.

I'm just gonna go ahead and post my ordering because I never post tier lists.

Top
SS:
S:

High
A:
B:

Middle:
C:
D:
E:
F:

Notes:

• Sheik gets her own tier due to having the best results and MUs by a fair margin but don't let the "SS" fool you into thinking she's anywhere near as dominant as or even ; she's not.
• ZSS, Rosie and Diddy are about as good as each other and are on a similar level. If any were to drop on the tier list I'd actually think it would be Rosalina.
• Bayo will probably rise into top tier. She's clearly amazing and is already tearing things up. Right now I'm going to avoid being overly presumptuous but it's clear she has what it takes.
• High tier should be fairly self explanatory with the scarier characters in A. Pikachu might deserve to be there but probably not and he lands just outside top 10.
• Toon Link takes 15th here but as I said, it's not hugely important. TL, the Pits and Lucario all have extremely good MU spreads.
• D tier is where the -2 MUs start coming in, with Greninja and Ike having a Sheik weakness. They're as strong as C tier otherwise. Corrin could rise, again I'm erring on the side of caution.
• The E tiers generally have multiple -2 MUs. They are solid characters capable of top 8 placements though. Mewtwo is on the rise.
• Putting Luigi that low will probably raise some eyebrows lol. But I'm... so over Luigi. MUs aren't there, results aren't there, bleh. Overnerfed but he was so unhealthy for the game that it's probably a good thing.
• I haven't listed anyone below Wii Fit because I think everyone else is fairly irrelevant at the moment. This is still 36 usable characters, which is pretty amazing. G&W is close to being decent. We need to work on his hoo hah kill percents.

Please keep comments, opinions and pitchfork-wielding criticism constructive.

I'm curious about your placing. The rest of your list seems to take results into consideration, so Lucas kind of stands out as a character with very little representation and a lack of results even at the regional level compared to even his compatriots in F tier or the new DLC. Is his placement here based purely on theory?

Also, how bad is vs ? I was under the impression this was at least -2 for Lucario based on theory and Serge vs Leo. However, I'm not that familiar with Lucario, so I'm open to being proven wrong.

 

[Fex13]

Curious to know why the consensus of Corrin is lower than I would have expected. just wondering what I might be missing. He has good kill power in counter, up air, f smash, Bair, and fang shot. He has great range that combos into his other moves. His side B is quick, can kill, comboed into, and can be mixup heavy. It can be argued that he is on the slower side but in combination of his range and quick side B, I believe this makes up for it. His recovery isn't the best but it does have invulnerable frames and has a wide hitbox on it. I just don't see any of his buttons being bad. Arguments can be made for dair and ftilt, but I know you can dair off stage footstool your opponent killing them and make it back. With good spacing I'm having trouble seeing any lower than high tier. I know it's a little stretch but I almost feel like most of Corrins move set is what Marth wanted to be. Thoughts?

exactly, but people just see his running speed. compare him to ness, trait for trait. corrin is better than people give him credit for. wait 2 years and we'll have a high tier corrin. corrin suffers from being overshadowed and overhyped by bayonetta. nobody is really playing corrin. but that is common if you are dlc and arent omghax2gud on first glance if there is another character that has witch time and an imbalanced combo game, on first glance of course. corrin is very viable. just give it some time. he does have everything you need, except for a combo throw, which you dont need, but people love their combo throws and good running speed. but he more than makes up for it with his other traits.
now there are going to be several disagreeing with me, saying how slow corrin is, when in fact he is not and how robin(lol) is better than him. but thats just the way it is. after all, time will show if you are/i'm right or wrong.

 

[Mario766]

Has Corrin really been overshadowed though. Bayonetta had some good results at first then kinda died off, Ryuga just had a stellar Landlocked run, getting to Grands in winners beating Ally and Zinoto and almost taking the first set in Grands for 1st place, this is also against a Zinoto who double eliminated Dabuz mind you.

 

[R3D3MON]

G. Stache
I think you are definitely being biased, when all results point otherwise. I am really sad to say this .

For Ryu vs. Luigi, you should probably watch the matches between Trela and LOE1 and other Luigi mains during TBH5. Basically Ryu's shoryuken kills way too early on Luigi even without rage and without a working kill confirm Luigi cannot really beat out a good Ryu (like Trela) if the Ryu player doesn't overextend. Also apparently Ryu's dair, nair, and bair are perfect for edgeguarding Luigi's up-b and side-b (watch S@X matches between False and Boss).

For pikachu, I see this as potentially being even now. Pikachu has much better mobility and his offstage game has more room to grow, and thus the gimpability of Luigi may increase in the future. Pikachu's range is bad, but he has the capability to chase Luigi in the air, unlike Luigi himself. Both characters have problems killing, but Pikachu's situational u-throw>thunder setup works on Luigi from what I know, which is a lot more than what Luigi has on pikachu as a kill setup. Luigi can certainly retaliate and bring back the game if the pikachu player decides to be overly aggressive and over-extend for kills, especially at high percents. OOS up smash is good for dealing with unsafe QA approaches, similar to Dr. Mario.

Results against Fox have been bad, as others pointed out. Con Con has a losing record against Larry, and recent result against Xzax makes me question whether or not Luigi can really deal with Fox's pressure game, mobility, and kill setups, especially when Foxes start inputting a lot more PP u-tilt into their gameplan.

Agreed with Cloud. Definitely need more results for Cloud vs. Luigi, but Cloud does get screwed up a lot by Luigi's tornado gimp offstage. Luigi has really serious problems dealing with Cloud's up-air tho, since Luigi can get juggled in the air until he dies.

Sonic vs. Luigi MU is mostly even imo. Really depends on how well the Luigi player deals with spindash approaches and pressure.

 

[wm1026]

I do know that corrin has been or at least was doing well in Texas. I believe cosmic cosmos won his first shockwave when using corrin rather convincingly might I add. No one will really know anything until we have another national. Just me making a prediction I see corrin as at least top 20. Maybe top 15 and I would say it's a stretch to say top 10 but I don't think it's as much of one as what people think.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

~ Gheb ~ , do you still feel that Germany is the strongest Smash 4 country within Europe? Based on ROF Winter 2016 (admittedly kind of old at this point) and Cannes Winter Clash results, I feel like there's a strong argument for France being the strongest country. The lack of French representation at Beast 6 makes it tough to say definitively though. You could make an argument for The Netherlands as well, but my current (and possibly completely incorrect) understanding is that Mr. R, iStudying, and S1-14 are a level above the rest of the scene.

Germany wins via skill density imo. They don't have an individual standout player like the Netherlands do but they have like 5 or 6 players all hovering around Sodrek's and Light's level which is something I find pretty impressive, even on a worldwide scale. France and the Netherlands are traditionally among the strongest smash regions in europe though so it's always possible that things change.

 

[bc1910]

~ Gheb ~ I'm curious about your placing. The rest of your list seems to take results into consideration, so Lucas kind of stands out as a character with very little representation and a lack of results even at the regional level compared to even his compatriots in F tier or the new DLC. Is his placement here based purely on theory?

Pink Fresh has been putting in work lately. I still put Lucas pretty low though. Reconsidering, I'd put Wii Fit and Robin above Lucas and Marth because they have better results.

But yeah in theory, Lucas is clearly quite good. The safer grab does a lot for him. He definitely deserves to be on the business end of the tier list.

 

[Deleted member]

Pink Fresh has been putting in work lately. I still put Lucas pretty low though. Reconsidering, I'd put Wii Fit and Robin above Lucas and Marth because they have better results.

But yeah in theory, Lucas is clearly quite good. The safer grab does a lot for him. He definitely deserves to be on the business end of the tier list.

I'm pretty sure Pink Fresh dropped Lucas for Bayonetta, or at least put him aside to focus mostly on Bayo.

 

[Jams.]

Pink Fresh has been putting in work lately. I still put Lucas pretty low though. Reconsidering, I'd put Wii Fit and Robin above Lucas and Marth because they have better results.

But yeah in theory, Lucas is clearly quite good. The safer grab does a lot for him. He definitely deserves to be on the business end of the tier list.

To my knowledge, Pink Fresh has dropped Lucas for Bayonetta recently, which corresponded to his improved performance including wins over players like Tyrant. He did have a decent placing at Genesis 3 including a win over Zenyou (though Zenyou bustered hard at that event), but it wasn't anything particularly good (especially compared to results like Wii Fit Trainer's top 32 placing). I'm honestly not too sure who the best Lucas reps are at this point, maybe HaKii (TX) and Taiheita (JP)?

 

[Fatmanonice]

So can we expect to see the top/high tier to change dramatically in the near future?

In regards to this...

I realized after writing this that it doesn't exactly answer your question about the immediate future, but I'll post anyways.

Olimar went from mid-tier on the first Brawl Backroom tier list to 3rd on the most recent one. That was probably the biggest change we saw in the list over the years. Even though the Brawl meta developed more slowly than Smash4's meta has done in the same amount of time, I think it's reasonable to predict that a few characters will go up/down 5, 6, 7 spots over time- perhaps some into high-tier, some out of high tier.

People should keep this in mind. In Brawl, characters like Olimar, Diddy, Marth, and Ice Climbers saw significant boosts while Dedede, ROB, Game and Watch, Wario, and even Snake somewhat fell from grace as time went on. Sometimes it was due to people figuring out character's strategies and sometimes it was due to significant players (like Ally and Snake) stepping down or simply going to fewer tournaments. With this game, we've kind of already seen this to some degree, even without the patches. Opinions on Yoshi, Falcon, and Luigi have gotten worse as time has gone on while opinions on Toon Link, Ike, and DK have gotten better. Now that patches are done (or at the very least on a couple month hiatus while Sakurai takes an extended vacation) the game can develop as it is and we can see where characters will end up without worrying about nerfs or buffs.

Add in: It should also be kept in mind that, for the first time in the Smash series, we almost have an entire mid tier and even some low tiers that are arguably viable so the competitive ride for this game could be a wild one up until Smash 5.

 

[Charoite]

Actually cosmic cosmos has won 2 shockwaves(68 and 70) with and got 4th in this second shockwave(69) losing to phenom.

 

[Jucchan]

To my knowledge, Pink Fresh has dropped Lucas for Bayonetta recently, which corresponded to his improved performance including wins over players like Tyrant. He did have a decent placing at Genesis 3 including a win over Zenyou (though Zenyou bustered hard at that event), but it wasn't anything particularly good (especially compared to results like Wii Fit Trainer's top 32 placing). I'm honestly not too sure who the best Lucas reps are at this point, maybe HaKii (TX) and Taiheita (JP)?

It would be pretty sad if Taiheita were Lucas' best rep since his best offline singles result is 128th (Drowned in pools) at Umebura FAT.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm pretty sure Pink Fresh dropped Lucas for Bayonetta, or at least put him aside to focus mostly on Bayo.

Pink Fresh still using Pit? Well, last I heard he switched to Dark Pit but still.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Falcon is worse than and as well, for sure. I don't think he's worse than Yoshi or Mewtwo; Yoshi is another member of the "I don't do anything" club and Mewtwo, while on the rise, hasn't quite proved himself over Falcon IMO.



Yeah, Falcon is pretty overrated. Almost no results outside Fatality and... hasn't that always been the case? I remember ZeRo calling out Falcon players, back in the day, for their lack of results. His results have never matched up to his hype. I would argue Falcon's situation is actually worse than Greninja's because while Greninja has one horrendous top tier MU, Falcon has several. Pikachu wrecks him almost as hard as Sheik and as has been noted, Falcon doesn't really have good high/top tier MUs. If his best MU is going even with Cloud, and he loses to most others (I think he could beat Rosalina, to be fair) then it doesn't bode well.

15th on the tier list is, IMO, a spot that isn't hugely important.

After the top 14 (BR's top 13 + Bayo) you have () who are all on about the same level.
They are followed by .

I am confident that these 6 round out the top 20 but the order they do it in isn't massively important, so who lands on 15th isn't crucial.

These characters would be followed by and THEN (and probably ).

Mid tier is then rounded out by characters like but I don't know exactly who. I think mid tier actually needs 4 lettered tiers; you can't roll Greninja and Ike in with the Pits, TL and Lucario because their Sheik MU is worse than any of those 3's worst MUs. You might be able to roll Corrin in but it's a bit presumptuous.

Since when did going even against most of high tier become a bad thing? Isn't that why people praise Pit so much? He only loses hard to Sheik and Pikachu, no one else is worse than 40:60, and even then there aren't a lot of those.
I disagree with Lucario being better than Falcon right now. If Lucario proves to be better as time goes on, I'm all for it. But at this current point in the meta, Falcon is still better than Lucario. ROB and DK have probably even worse top tier MUs than Falcon, especially ZSS. Hell, DK even struggles a bit with Falcon, and it's not like Falcon's just going to go away entirely.
I think Greninja is a better spot for 15, followed by Falcon and Ike then it gets a little harder to decide.

There are 58 characters in this game. Surely we don't expect all of them to get high results at every single tournament? It's going to take a while for any downward trend to be notable, and I mean a while. We're a little over a year into this game and only now are patches finally seeming to be done so we can actually determine who goes where. I don't think we'll have a definitive answer for Mid tier or low tier for quite a while. Melee may have quite a bit more depth than this game does, but there's something to say if Melee is still trying to figure out the most accurate placings for it's Mid tiers 14 years after the games release.

 

[Tri Knight]

Now that patches are done (or at the very least on a couple month hiatus while Sakurai takes an extended vacation) the game can develop as it is and we can see where characters will end up without worrying about nerfs or buffs.

Even though there's nothing I would like more in this game than to see Link's CQC buffed, this comment is exactly why I hope we've seen the last of patches.

The patches really slowed down the development of the meta and even sometimes took a u-turn in some stages. There was always a fear that a player's favorite character would be nerfed while others hoped for buffs for theirs. It really made the whole process problematic.

Now, I'm not against the fact that we had patches though. Because of the patches, we actually have a Smash where we can say mid-tiers and some low-tiers are competitively viable.

I'm not sure if we will have one last patch but I'm kinda thinking we will. Something about Version 1.1.5 just seems right to me. And I can bet the amount of For Gloryers complaining about Witch Time is overwhelming. So if there is, all I can say is let's take a breath and hope for the best for every character.

 

[Jalil]

Mid / High Tier is gonna be huge. So many characters that are on the binge of being viable, it's amazing.

For me, the clear Top Tiers are (ordened in groups through ">"):

>
>
>
>
***

: Underdeveloped meta as of now but definitely a contender of Top Tier later on
: Despite not being as good as the others listed here, he's still a league ahead above the other characters.
: ^

High Tier contenders (in no particular order this time):

*

: Not too sure of Corrin at this current moment, but he looks strong so far.

These characters have good matchups with the Top tiers or at least good results whilst being used as a solo character. Matter of fact, I'd say these characters togheter with a Top Tier main as would work wonders.

Niche choices with limited viability (definitely NEED another character to be tournament viable)

**

&: They carry a lot of potential I feel, but just aren't used that much anymore.

Borderline:

>

Unimpressive characters with either one good High or Top Tier matchup that might make them relevant somehow. Likely won't be seen much, if any time at all.

Quite damn bad, should never use unless ironically:

>>(all 3 variations of Mii)

I hereby conclude that just 8 characters () are actually unusable in tournament enviorment. And am still sort of shakey on and the Miis. They could hold some future potential, Shulk especially with some slight frame data buffs.

That's just 8 characters who are completely useless. Compare that with Melee, which had and I think we good. Brawl also had horendously bad characters with; and so much stupid stuff like invalidating characters, wobbling, 's lasers, losing soly to chaingrabs... 's existance. 's weird *** hitboxes and being insanely heavy weight.

We've become quite far, and I think Sakurai deserves some respect for this.

Shulk isn't a horrible character. People are too tunnel visioned when it comes to him, y'all look at his frame data and nothing else. For the most part, his range, mobility and safety make up for his frame data. He has a great neutral and good advantage. The only state where his frame data really hinders him in is disadvantage. (something as simple as a frame 3 air slash would fix that without giving him a braindead panic button ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) and improve his combo game). Even then, having the ability to alter combo/setup percentages by changing your weight and reducing hitstun is enough to keep his disadvantage from being THAT bad. Not saying he's high tier but he doesn't belong in the same group as Zelda.

 

[Nah]

F Fex13 a better comparison would be to Ike since him and Corrin shares values for run speed, aerial acceleration, and fall/fastfall speed while having similar air speed and big-ass disjoints.

 

[HeavyLobster]

F Fex13 a better comparison would be to Ike since him and Corrin shares values for run speed, aerial acceleration, and fall/fastfall speed while having similar air speed and big-*** disjoints.

They definitely feel similar. Corrin has a worse grab game though, and that largely explains why Corrin is the weaker character overall.

 

[L9999]

They definitely feel similar. Corrin has a worse grab game though, and that largely explains why Corrin is the weaker character overall.

Seriously, that Foward Throw is a complete tease. That quick animation, bad damage, and lame knockback would make you think it is a combo throw but it is not. Back Throw does nothing at all. D-Throw kills lightweights at 130s% without rage and it cannot kill any other character at high % unless Kamui has rage. U-Throw only kills on platforms. Grab range is bad, and pummel is bleh.

 

[wm1026]

They definitely feel similar. Corrin has a worse grab game though, and that largely explains why Corrin is the weaker character overall.

Just because corrin doesn't have smash 4 bread and butter down throw combo should not mean he is a worse character. He has two kill throws and his other throws puts his opponents at midrange which is where he wants them. His tilts are close to Ike's but Corrins smashes are much better as well as corrin has a projectile that can combo into his other kill moves. He also has the better counter of the two. Saying Ike is better than corrin just because he does not have a true combo throw is being a little shortsighted don't you think?

 

[Y2Kay]

The : Matchup makes me want to shed actual human tears.

• Charging Aura Sphere becomes a risk, since Cloud can charge his limit
• Cloud's punish game is unreal, which is a big problem because Lucario's moves are unsafe on shield and have mediocre range.
• Cloud has better frame data and mobility
• Cloud cleans stocks like a champ
• Lucario isn't a good edge guarder, he can't abuse Cloud's biggest flaw
• Cloud has a variety of safe pokes with that humongous sword. It becomes more difficult to establish a good punish game, which is one of his stronger traits.

It's the match up Lucario mains have nightmares about.

 

[HoSmash4]

Luigi probably is in a similar position to

The : Matchup makes me want to shed actual human tears.

• Charging Aura Sphere becomes a risk, since Cloud can charge his limit
• Cloud's punish game is unreal, which is a big problem because Lucario's moves are unsafe on shield and have mediocre range.
• Cloud has better frame data and mobility
• Cloud cleans stocks like a champ
• Lucario isn't a good edge guarder, he can't abuse Cloud's biggest flaw
• Cloud has a variety of safe pokes with that humongous sword. It becomes more difficult to establish a good punish game, which is one of his stronger traits.

It's the match up Lucario mains have nightmares about.

I speculate that cloud will gatekeep the viability of .
Cloud is extremely good vs mid/low tiers, the only thing they have on this character is an edgeguard game which they dont have on Sheik and ZSS. But Cloud isnt as easy to edgeguard as it seems.

 

[G. Stache]

For Ryu vs. Luigi, you should probably watch the matches between Trela and LOE1 and other Luigi mains during TBH5. Basically Ryu's shoryuken kills way too early on Luigi even without rage and without a working kill confirm Luigi cannot really beat out a good Ryu (like Trela) if the Ryu player doesn't overextend. Also apparently Ryu's dair, nair, and bair are perfect for edgeguarding Luigi's up-b and side-b (watch S@X matches between False and Boss).

I did. I will say that I never really had an opinion. I forget who, but someone told me that the Ryu - Luigi MU was around even. I'm not so sure I beleive it after watching those two matches, lol. To each their own about the Fox and Pika MUs. Luigi right now is turning out to be like Yoshi: lots of theory on his side, but not enough action to have staying power.

I don't know, I enjoy being optimistic towards Luigi, but I suppose I should remember that reality exists. As long as nobody ever thinks Luigi as low tier, then put him wherever you want is what I'll say. Different opinions (within reason: I won't ever say that Luigi is top 10 unless he gets a significant buff) are good, I suppose. Anyways, I wanted to stop talking about Luigi and bring up a question about the other Bro:

I remember that one guy came on this forum and talked about how the metagame was advancing towards kill confirms. The person who has the easiest ways of killing will come out on top (or something like that) and that's why the bloke didn't even think of Pika as top 10. So, what about Mario? Where will Mario go if MK, ZSS, Sheik and other characters that have ways to end your game quickly end up rising in power (as in, even more power than what we're seeing now)? I can't see the plumber doing so hot, most likely dropping even further. But by how much? Do we think he'll stay in high tier, or nah?

 

[iVoltage]

Luigi probably is in a similar position to

I speculate that cloud will gatekeep the viability of .
Cloud is extremely good vs mid/low tiers, the only thing they have on this character is an edgeguard game which they dont have on Sheik and ZSS. But Cloud is as easy to edgeguard as it seems.

Thank God he has that weakness, cloud with a good recovery would be way harder to handle.

 

[Y2Kay]

Remember back in December when we thought Cloud would be mid tier because of his recovery?

good times.

 

[HoSmash4]

Thank God he has that weakness, cloud with a good recovery would be way harder to handle.

I see cloud's 3 main weaknesses are
1. Exploitable recovery
2. All his tilts, jabs are punishable on block (except tip of ftilt)
3. Minimal grab combos

If he had a hoo-hah, a mario level up-b, a better ground game, we're looking at Brawl MK in my opinion.

Cloud's disjoints are so insane given his kill power and frame data

 

[|RK|]

Hey, not to be LiveJournal, but is there a place outside of my (dead) character board I can post some video of me playing and get feedback?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Hey, not to be LiveJournal, but is there a place outside of my (dead) character board I can post some video of me playing and get feedback?

Depends on what character you are playing against. You could post the in the character you are fighting against's board. possibly.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I speculate that cloud will gatekeep the viability of .

I think he's going to gatekeep the viability of a lot more characters than that.

 

[juddy96]

Honestly, in this meta, it seems like if you don't play Sheik or other top tiers, you absolutely need to have 2-3 mains. No thanks to certain characters "gatekeeping" the viability of others. Not only can you counterpick, but you can feel comfortable that if you get rekt game 1 of a set you have a cushion of a different character to go back at them with. I'd imagine that would also settle some nerves.

 

[NairWizard]

Throw -> Limit Charge is among the best grab combos in the game.

Consider that most throw combos get weaker with additional % on the opponent, because it becomes harder to follow up, but for Cloud, the inverse is true, as you can charge Limit for longer the further you throw your opponent. And Limit itself is fairly busted--Cloud getting closer to Finishing Touch (at low %) or Limit Cross Slash (at any percent) is way more terrifying than Diddy getting a d-throw f-air combo or something. Limit Cross Slash alone does 27% damage fresh, which is ~1.3x the damage that Sheik's f-throw to Bouncing Fish does.

Limit Cross Slash is actually beyond broken, Cloud's best move and among the best moves in the game in a vacuum. Multihit (tears through many spotdodges/rolls/airdodges and Ryu's Focus), almost 1/3 of a stock in damage, kills most characters at 100 or sub 100 if near the ledge, can be used aerially or out of a dash, and is more or less safe on block (a few characters can punish, if they have insane run/dash speed like Sonic or Falcon). You can even use this move to 2-frame some characters on their recoveries for guaranteed death, which is really ridiculous. It approaches charged-Waft (around which entire playstyles are built) levels of ridiculous except that it's chargeable.

When Cloud has Limit Cross Slash he becomes this unassailable fortress of walling prowess. He already has counterpoking and his n-air, but with LCS suddenly you have to watch out for a mixup or pivot option that actually just shaves your stock off clean or puts you in up-air death percent if you choose to roll or airdodge into his range. That to me is worth way more than a few extra % and minor positional advantage gained from most characters' standard d-throw combos.

And if he's already in Limit, Cloud does have some grab combos like d-throw n-air, not to mention that his up-air juggling with his Limit mobility specs is much deadlier, so up-throw becomes a beastly option.

 

[Planty]

Limit Cross Slash is actually beyond broken, Cloud's best move and among the best moves in the game in a vacuum. Multihit (tears through many spotdodges/rolls/airdodges and Ryu's Focus), almost 1/3 of a stock in damage, kills most characters at 100 or sub 100 if near the ledge, can be used aerially or out of a dash, and is more or less safe on block (a few characters can punish, if they have insane run/dash speed like Sonic or Falcon). You can even use this move to 2-frame some characters on their recoveries for guaranteed death, which is really ridiculous. It approaches charged-Waft levels of ridiculous except that it's chargeable

Don't forget it's invincible at the start. Just read somebody going for anything against you and bye-bye.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I think he's going to gatekeep the viability of a lot more characters than that.

I still contend that Rosalina sloppily farts on the stand-alone viability of more characters in the cast than anyone else. I'd argue that she has the most and closest things of the whole cast that resemble the "shut down" match ups of Brawl and Melee. Cloud might be a gatekeeper but Rosalina is the actual gate, sculpted out of stone and each of the towers being in the shape of hands giving the middle finger to the mid and low tiers.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Just because corrin doesn't have smash 4 bread and butter down throw combo should not mean he is a worse character. He has two kill throws and his other throws puts his opponents at midrange which is where he wants them. His tilts are close to Ike's but Corrins smashes are much better as well as corrin has a projectile that can combo into his other kill moves. He also has the better counter of the two. Saying Ike is better than corrin just because he does not have a true combo throw is being a little shortsighted don't you think?

Not when those throw combos can easily wrack up 35+% at the start of stocks, consistently tack on over 15% per grab, and lead into no less than three kill moves. And it gets better the more stale the throw is. It lets Ike wrack up damage faster than Corrin can, and Ike has more killing options. When so many things between the two characters are similar, something like an amazing throw grab can make the difference for overall usability.

Also for the record, Ike has a kill throw as well. And I'd argue Ike's Usmash>Corrin's Usmash even with the funky sour spot at the end. That Usmash can just absolutely crush somebody trying to get up from the ledge: covers rolls, jump, get up, and attack with the right spacing.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Sadly Shulk is made obsolete by cloud and corn on the cob.
Man and I thought we had a niche with range.
At least we still have Monado arts

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I still contend that Rosalina sloppily farts on the stand-alone viability of more characters in the cast than anyone else. I'd argue that she has the most and closest things of the whole cast that resemble the "shut down" match ups of Brawl and Melee. Cloud might be a gatekeeper but Rosalina is the actual gate, sculpted out of stone and each of the towers being in the shape of hands giving the middle finger to the mid and low tiers.

Rosa is the one top tier that Shulk actually has a chance against. Momentum is everything in that battle, and Shulk can get Luna out pretty easily with smash and buster
But when Shulk loses stage control, then rip