Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nidtendofreak]

Never will I ever understand why Din's Fire puts her in a helpless state right after she uses it in midair. It's amazingly bad design.

But I agree, it's definitely a bad move. Worst projectile in the game, easily. Easily airdodged, sidestepped or shielded, leaves Zelda wide open, and to boot it lost most of its KOing power and maneuverability from Brawl even if it wasn't even good in that game either.

Its hilarious in a Double Zelda team though when an opponent is off stage.

They're just pretty much doomed if their partner can't help them (like if they were knocked off stage as well). Whatever you do to dodge the first one, the second one will hit you. And then while you're being knocked away, the first Zelda is firing off another one...

Seen it in practice when it was a 2v1 situation. Poor lone dude spent like 30 seconds trying to get back and just got juggled to death by din fires off stage.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Her Din's Fire clanks with everything btw. Even if you had no sense of attention, you are completely safe if you just press the A button. I once wrote an essay explaining why Din's Fire is the greatest abomination in game design history.

It's competing with KO punch and tripping, so your essay was wrong.

 

[busken]

Doc, imo, is a solid B tier character. Most people seem to compare him to Mario and not the rest of the cast causing the general community to be really ignorant of his ability. Doc yields great combo ability and is for sure an above average edge guarder since he can punish dropzone recoveries really well via all his specials. SH b-air and n-air along with pills give his neutral some decency, and has strong OoS options and punish tools. Amoung the higher tier characters recovery is admittedly an issue but its not nearly as bad as ganon or mac. I would say he is a good case since he is balanced but at the same time true to his design. Despite being outclassed by Mario in more ways than one, I think his biggest niche is, as previously mentioned, his kill confirm on fast fallers. This can lead to him being a better choice against characters like Fox who he can kill via edgeguarding and d-throw.

 

[wm1026]

It's competing with KO punch and tripping, so your essay was wrong.

What exactly is wrong with KO punch? Just wondering because there are moves such as finishing touch, waft, and rest that basically do the same thing but are on much less fragile characters. Heck finishing touch is chargeable AND can be comboed in to it.

 

[Deleted member]

What exactly is wrong with KO punch? Just wondering because there are moves such as finishing touch, waft, and rest that basically do the same thing but are on much less fragile characters. Heck finishing touch is chargeable AND can be comboed in to it.

He was being facetious, most likely.

Also I dunno, Puff is pretty fragile. KO Punch at least doesn't have the chance of being punishable on hit.

 

[wm1026]

He was being facetious, most likely.

Also I dunno, Puff is pretty fragile. KO Punch at least doesn't have the chance of being punishable on hit.

Well to be fair a lot of people assumed Larry has been trolling too. You got me on puff though. Although it's super easy to punish a missed KO punch, and is basically useless in the air.

EDIT: Just saying that KO punch isn't as good as it is made out to be. Sure if you land one its great but the trick is landing it. Especially when it's on Mac that can be camped out of it and (depending on the stage) avoided all together. I am sure most Mac players would be happy to give it up for a good recovery and/or decent air game.

 

[Fatmanonice]

What exactly is wrong with KO punch? Just wondering because there are moves such as finishing touch, waft, and rest that basically do the same thing but are on much less fragile characters. Heck finishing touch is chargeable AND can be comboed in to it.

Pretty much a free attack of your opponent's choice if they whiff and this is especially bad because that usually means getting him in the air or knocking him off the stage, both extremely bad places to be as Mac. There's also the fact that you can lose it, unlike the others you mentioned, before you even get to use it. Jiggs is more fragile than Mac and rest is even more of an all or nothing attack because it's safe on shield. Waft is largely safe because it launches Wario up plus, if they shield, it not only bounces off the top of it but it also puts them in very heavy shield stun, making it virtually impossible to directly punish.

 

[deepseadiva]

Mac is the best designed Smash character in the whole game. Very extreme character that was still balanced very thoughtfully.

 

[BananaBake]

Well to be fair a lot of people assumed Larry has been trolling too. You got me on puff though. Although it's super easy to punish a missed KO punch, and is basically useless in the air.

EDIT: Just saying that KO punch isn't as good as it is made out to be. Sure if you land one its great but the trick is landing it. Especially when it's on Mac that can be camped out of it and (depending on the stage) avoided all together. I am sure most Mac players would be happy to give it up for a good recovery and/or decent air game.

Oh Radical Larry, such an interesting presence on this website, to say the least

 

[wm1026]

Pretty much a free attack of your opponent's choice if they whiff and this is especially bad because that usually means getting him in the air or knocking him off the stage, both extremely bad places to be as Mac. There's also the fact that you can lose it, unlike the others you mentioned, before you even get to use it. Jiggs is more fragile than Mac and rest is even more of an all or nothing attack because it's safe on shield. Waft is largely safe because it launches Wario up plus, if they shield, it not only bounces off the top of it but it also puts them in very heavy shield stun, making it virtually impossible to directly punish.

I believe there has been a miscommunication here. I was arguing that KO punch was a bad move. My fault for not wording it clearly.

 

[Fatmanonice]

KO punch would be a lot better if it was multi functional like limit break. If it could auto snap the ledge as a form of recovery and with no end lag in the air, then he'd be a bit more balanced as a character.

 

[deepseadiva]

KO punch would be a lot better if it was multi functional like limit break. If it could auto snap the ledge as a form of recovery and with no end lag in the air, then he'd be a bit more balanced as a character.

Mac is a design you'd want to make purposefully worse than purposefully better. For overall quality of life.

But that would have been nice for him. If you manage to keep your KO Punch after getting launched, at least you get to recover ONCE in your life...

 

[ぱみゅ]

RE: Doctor Mario
I think he's a very difficult character to measure.
He has good Top Tier matchups, some of them could even be in his favor.
But the more you go down in the list, the more problems he has, particularly with most zoners, sword-wielders, or charaters with good enough mobility to make it a hell for him to approach, and a lot of them can effectively gimp him.

He's about as difficult to gauge as Little Mac, both have solid gameplans but fragile enough not to make big splashes often.

 

[TTTTTsd]

RE: Doctor Mario
I think he's a very difficult character to measure.
He has good Top Tier matchups, some of them could even be in his favor.
But the more you go down in the list, the more problems he has, particularly with most zoners, sword-wielders, or charaters with good enough mobility to make it a hell for him to approach, and a lot of them can effectively gimp him.

He's about as difficult to gauge as Little Mac, both have solid gameplans but fragile enough not to make big splashes often.

Well I'm glad I didn't have to say it myself. This is exactly why he's only effective as a secondary.

The more gimmicky/middling characters are often more annoying for him than some of the best in the game (note: Sonic and Rosa are two actual bleh Top tier MUs though but overall otherwise his Top Tier MUs are pretty solid IMO)

 

[Tri Knight]

So can we expect to see the top/high tier to change dramatically in the near future?

 

[SaltyKracka]

What exactly is wrong with KO punch? Just wondering because there are moves such as finishing touch, waft, and rest that basically do the same thing but are on much less fragile characters. Heck finishing touch is chargeable AND can be comboed in to it.

Most of my problem with KO punch comes from the fact that due to it charging up fast off of Mac taking damage, it actively discourages engaging with Mac beyond the "shield at ledge, backthrow, gimp, lol" idiocy his kit already falls into.

Especially when it's on Mac that can be camped out of it.

Basically, everything about it encourages lame and boring play.

 

[DanGR]

So can we expect to see the top/high tier to change dramatically in the near future?

I realized after writing this that it doesn't exactly answer your question about the immediate future, but I'll post anyways.

Olimar went from mid-tier on the first Brawl Backroom tier list to 3rd on the most recent one. That was probably the biggest change we saw in the list over the years. Even though the Brawl meta developed more slowly than Smash4's meta has done in the same amount of time, I think it's reasonable to predict that a few characters will go up/down 5, 6, 7 spots over time- perhaps some into high-tier, some out of high tier.

 

[HoSmash4]

Sheik's 50/50 is based around the air dodge. Either Sheik up airs as soon as possible to punish the opponent for not air dodging, or kills the opponent for air dodging by delaying up air (or doing up b). I don't see why Bayo's air dodge would make this different.

It's witch time that kills sheik in the 50/50. Replace jump with witch time

 

[Ghostbone]

It's witch time that kills sheik in the 50/50. Replace jump with witch time

This only applies at lower %s, at higher %s Sheik can punish witch time with uair for the kill.

 

[HoSmash4]

This only applies at lower %s, at higher %s Sheik can punish witch time with uair for the kill.

Oh yeah Sheik can punish witch time on reaction with uair but this means the uair will be done lower, rather than at it's vertical peak so uair will kill noticeably later. I was watching Zero punish witch time with delayed uair but he ended up doing the uair so low it wasnt a big deal for bayonetta to get punished for it.

Essentially witch time just makes the sheik into a weird RPS

immediate uair > witch time/jump, loses to airdodge
vanish > airdodge, kills early. Loses HARD to witch time, neutral reset if bayonetta jumps
delayed uair, beats airdodge, beats witch time, kills the latest, neutral reset if bayonetta jumps.

A lot of characters literally have a coin flip between jump or airdodge so at least bayonetta has something going for her.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Not sure how much hard does Vanish lose to Witch Time, I mean, the invincibility gets longer, too.
But yeah, it only adds another element to the Formula but in the end is the exact same kind of setup.

 

[bc1910]

I didn't do farther than top 3 cuz it was already a pretty long post, but Ike did have good results this weekend nonetheless with Waldo placing top 8 and beating Marss at GUMS 6, and SM beating Tyrant at 2GGT: EE Saga. Also Day 4th with Lucario at Tampa Never Sleeps 6. And I would be foolish to miss falln's performance at 2GGT: EE Saga as well, he played amazing to get 4th place there with Rosalina.

I actually quite like the top 3 method. Top 3 finishes are what matter most in, y'know, almost every sport in the world. In Smash I particularly like it because in double elimination tournaments, top 3 signifies that you reached finals (3rd reached losers, 1st and 2nd reached grands).

Nonetheless top 8 is the most important thing in these tournaments and coming anywhere in top 8 is a big achievement. Still, with only one notable result from Lucario and Toon Link (and TL's was at a small tourney) it's safe to say they were outperformed this weekend.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

re: Fox vs Falcon

The whole formula of "they both destroy each other therefore the matchup is even" doesn't add up. Sure Falcon can destroy Fox but Fox destroys Falcon harder and it's easier for Fox to destroy Falcon than vice versa. Fox still has the better neutral game than Falcon and Fox uair destroys Falcon's disadvantaged state much harder than anything Falcon can do to Fox [which, admittedly, is still potentially a lot]. Stuff like Larry vs Fatality may be an outlier in its sheer brutality but its outcome is no coincidence and as a consequence neither is the winning record Fox has against Falcon. The matchup is not even.

 

[Trifroze]

A bit late but on the subject of Falcon, he's one of those characters whose advantaged and disadvantaged states are extreme (good and bad respectively), and as such the level of the player using him makes a massive difference, especially when Falcon has so many good tools in neutral. If the Falcon player is worse than yourself they'll get bodied pretty badly, but if they're better chances are you'll get bodied just as hard. I don't know whether people calling Falcon overrated are judging the character based on such personal experience or not, but calling his neutral mediocre does hint towards that. Not many characters have the option to outright ignore neutral like he does.

Falcon's weaknesses are more exploitable than his strengths are exploitative, but not by a large margin except in a couple matchups (Sheik and Pikachu). I'd still easily call him top 20, there simply aren't enough other characters that do as well as he does versus so many top/high tiers.

 

[bc1910]

I have felt for quite a while now that Falcon is worse than and as well. Possibly now too. Falcon's only good state is advantage, and it's not strong enough to make up for his mediocre neutral and awful disadvantage. Doesn't help that he's kind of a one trick pony, and easy to gimp in a game where that is far from commonplace. He's upper mid tier imo.

Falcon is worse than and as well, for sure. I don't think he's worse than Yoshi or Mewtwo; Yoshi is another member of the "I don't do anything" club and Mewtwo, while on the rise, hasn't quite proved himself over Falcon IMO.

Since we are talking about characters on the decline, let's talk a bit about Falcon. Is it really a general consensus that and are worse than Falcon (looking at the official tier list)? They all seem to do better vs the top tiers, and have better results (particularly Tink and Ike). Particularly with the bair and uair nerfs, I never thought Falcon was even in contention for top 10, and now with the multiple DLC characters that are just flat out better than him (), he might not even be top 15. Falcon is in a similar situation as imo where his viability is hindered by . It's hard to argue the MU is any better than 30/70 for the Falcon/Shiek MU. So, Tink, Ike, and Rob all have better results and a better MU on at least Shiek. Why is he still considered better?

Yeah, Falcon is pretty overrated. Almost no results outside Fatality and... hasn't that always been the case? I remember ZeRo calling out Falcon players, back in the day, for their lack of results. His results have never matched up to his hype. I would argue Falcon's situation is actually worse than Greninja's because while Greninja has one horrendous top tier MU, Falcon has several. Pikachu wrecks him almost as hard as Sheik and as has been noted, Falcon doesn't really have good high/top tier MUs. If his best MU is going even with Cloud, and he loses to most others (I think he could beat Rosalina, to be fair) then it doesn't bode well.

15th on the tier list is, IMO, a spot that isn't hugely important.

After the top 14 (BR's top 13 + Bayo) you have () who are all on about the same level.
They are followed by .

I am confident that these 6 round out the top 20 but the order they do it in isn't massively important, so who lands on 15th isn't crucial.

These characters would be followed by and THEN (and probably ).

Mid tier is then rounded out by characters like but I don't know exactly who. I think mid tier actually needs 4 lettered tiers; you can't roll Greninja and Ike in with the Pits, TL and Lucario because their Sheik MU is worse than any of those 3's worst MUs. You might be able to roll Corrin in but it's a bit presumptuous.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I actually quite like the top 3 method. Top 3 finishes are what matter most in, y'know, almost every sport in the world. In Smash I particularly like it because in double elimination tournaments, top 3 signifies that you reached finals (3rd reached losers, 1st and 2nd reached grands).

Nonetheless top 8 is the most important thing in these tournaments and coming anywhere in top 8 is a big achievement. Still, with only one notable result from Lucario and Toon Link (and TL's was at a small tourney) it's safe to say they were outperformed this weekend.

Toon Link has 2: 9th at Genesis 3, and top 8 of that Texas tournament that didn't host top 8 due to time constraints.

Falcon is worse than and as well, for sure. I don't think he's worse than Yoshi or Mewtwo; Yoshi is another member of the "I don't do anything" club and Mewtwo, while on the rise, hasn't quite proved himself over Falcon IMO.



Yeah, Falcon is pretty overrated. Almost no results outside Fatality and... hasn't that always been the case? I remember ZeRo calling out Falcon players, back in the day, for their lack of results. His results have never matched up to his hype. I would argue Falcon's situation is actually worse than Greninja's because while Greninja has one horrendous top tier MU, Falcon has several. Pikachu wrecks him almost as hard as Sheik and as has been noted, Falcon doesn't really have good high/top tier MUs. If his best MU is going even with Cloud, and he loses to most others (I think he could beat Rosalina, to be fair) then it doesn't bode well.

15th on the tier list is, IMO, a spot that isn't hugely important.

After the top 14 (BR's top 13 + Bayo) you have () who are all on about the same level.
They are followed by .

I am confident that these 6 round out the top 20 but the order they do it in isn't massively important, so who lands on 15th isn't crucial.

These characters would be followed by and THEN (and probably ).

Mid tier is then rounded out by characters like but I don't know exactly who. I think mid tier actually needs 4 lettered tiers; you can't roll Greninja and Ike in with the Pits, TL and Lucario because their Sheik MU is worse than any of those 3's worst MUs. You might be able to roll Corrin in but it's a bit presumptuous.

Captain Falcon has tearbear too.

 

[bc1910]

Toon Link has 2: 9th at Genesis 3

No idea what you mean. Genesis 3 wasn't this weekend...

and top 8 of that Texas tournament that didn't host top 8 due to time constraints.

This sounds like it's not even worth mentioning.

 

[Wintermelon43]

No idea what you mean. Genesis 3 wasn't this weekend...



This sounds like it's not even worth mentioning.

Oh, didn't realize you meant this weekend.

As I don't hear much (anything) about Olimar, what are people's opinions on him? I'd put him at last of high tier. But I never hear what everyone else thinks.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Mid / High Tier is gonna be huge. So many characters that are on the binge of being viable, it's amazing.

For me, the clear Top Tiers are (ordened in groups through ">"):

>
>
>
>
***

: Underdeveloped meta as of now but definitely a contender of Top Tier later on
: Despite not being as good as the others listed here, he's still a league ahead above the other characters.
: ^

High Tier contenders (in no particular order this time):

*

: Not too sure of Corrin at this current moment, but he looks strong so far.

These characters have good matchups with the Top tiers or at least good results whilst being used as a solo character. Matter of fact, I'd say these characters togheter with a Top Tier main as would work wonders.

Niche choices with limited viability (definitely NEED another character to be tournament viable)

**

&: They carry a lot of potential I feel, but just aren't used that much anymore.

Borderline:

>

Unimpressive characters with either one good High or Top Tier matchup that might make them relevant somehow. Likely won't be seen much, if any time at all.

Quite damn bad, should never use unless ironically:

>>(all 3 variations of Mii)

I hereby conclude that just 8 characters () are actually unusable in tournament enviorment. And am still sort of shakey on and the Miis. They could hold some future potential, Shulk especially with some slight frame data buffs.

That's just 8 characters who are completely useless. Compare that with Melee, which had and I think we good. Brawl also had horendously bad characters with; and so much stupid stuff like invalidating characters, wobbling, 's lasers, losing soly to chaingrabs... 's existance. 's weird ass hitboxes and being insanely heavy weight.

We've become quite far, and I think Sakurai deserves some respect for this.

 

[Trifroze]

Falcon is worse than and as well, for sure. I don't think he's worse than Yoshi or Mewtwo; Yoshi is another member of the "I don't do anything" club and Mewtwo, while on the rise, hasn't quite proved himself over Falcon IMO.



Yeah, Falcon is pretty overrated. Almost no results outside Fatality and... hasn't that always been the case? I remember ZeRo calling out Falcon players, back in the day, for their lack of results. His results have never matched up to his hype. I would argue Falcon's situation is actually worse than Greninja's because while Greninja has one horrendous top tier MU, Falcon has several. Pikachu wrecks him almost as hard as Sheik and as has been noted, Falcon doesn't really have good high/top tier MUs. If his best MU is going even with Cloud, and he loses to most others (I think he could beat Rosalina, to be fair) then it doesn't bode well.

15th on the tier list is, IMO, a spot that isn't hugely important.

After the top 14 (BR's top 13 + Bayo) you have () who are all on about the same level.
They are followed by .

I am confident that these 6 round out the top 20 but the order they do it in isn't massively important, so who lands on 15th isn't crucial.

These characters would be followed by and THEN (and probably ).

Fatality and Tearbear must be godlike for getting 17th and 33rd with Falcon in Genesis 3 if his best MU is going even with Cloud.

Let's be realistic here. Falcon got better overall results than all the characters you mentioned except Toon Link, and Genesis 3 is arguably still more relevant than all the tournaments that have happened after it combined, and it's not like Falcon is being carried by top level players either. In fact I'd say Pit and DK are experiencing more of that due to Earth and Will/Larry respectively.

 

[bc1910]

Fatality and Tearbear must be godlike for getting 17th and 33rd with Falcon in Genesis 3 if his best MU is going even with Cloud.

Let's be realistic here. Falcon got better overall results than all the characters you mentioned except Toon Link, and Genesis 3 is arguably still more relevant than all the tournaments that have happened after it combined, and it's not like Falcon is being carried by top level players either. In fact I'd say Pit and DK are experiencing more of that due to Earth and Will/Larry respectively.

Well, EL said that, not me. I actually think Falcon has better MUs including possibly beating Rosalina.

Does he though? Really? Falcon's results are dropping off and were really never that impressive. 17th and 33rd, whilst good, are not top 8 placements and that's what we're looking for at this stage. Although it's not totally fair of me to say that since G3 was huge.

And sure, G3 was huge, but better characters simply did better. And you might argue that the characters I mentioned except TL didn't do better at G3, which is true, but their rep is way stronger internationally and their best players weren't even present so it's not a fair comparison.

I don't disagree that Pit is carried by Earth and I don't think he performs as well as he should in theory. However he has a very strong MU spread with... possibly no -2s, and a very doable Sheik MU. I'd put him lower if I could get away with it but I don't think I can.

As soon as I saw this I thought "the nerf DOES matter!"

For those that don't know what I'm talking about. In this final 3DS (Wii U intro) patch, Sheik got one kick's hitboxes removed from her Uair. There used to be a kick right before the last one. That's why the current Uair sound effects sound like "1 2 3... 4" instead of a continuous "1 2 3 4 5" like for Samus (Samus has a 6th but besides the point).

This happened in 1.0.4. Sheik's Uair has had 4 hitboxes for literally a year.

On the topic of Sheik's 50/50


This is probably one of the things Greninja mains need to start doing so that the Sheik MU becomes more bearable

This is huge if it's consistent. Like, absolutely huge. This is an escape from Sheik's best kill setup, bar none.

A genuine weakness of Sheik is that she doesn't have a stock cap kill throw. She always has to rely on 50/50s to get kills from throws and once you're past that percent window, her throws don't kill raw until literally about 500%.

However, I don't think it's consistent. I've been trying to do it for months and haven't really succeeded. I think it only works when Sheik doesn't have rage and I'm fairly sure whether you fall from the sneak or not depends on how Sheik does the Uair (rising or falling), not on your SDI.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I just realized, Captain Falcon is basicially the character version of Esam; At first, he was considered one of the best, but then, as the other characters evolved and became better, Captain Falcon didn't change at all and kept falling down and down.

I feel like Captain Falcon will be like Melee Mario, where people first (stupidly) place him in top, then realize that was probably too high and place him in top of high tier, then realize he isn't actually that good and fall down and downnnnnn. I personally think he will end up being placed in mid.

 

[Fex13]

Mid / High Tier is gonna be huge. So many characters that are on the binge of being viable, it's amazing.

For me, the clear Top Tiers are (ordened in groups through ">"):

>
>
>
>
***

: Underdeveloped meta as of now but definitely a contender of Top Tier later on
: Despite not being as good as the others listed here, he's still a league ahead above the other characters.
: ^

High Tier contenders (in no particular order this time):

*

: Not too sure of Corrin at this current moment, but he looks strong so far.

These characters have good matchups with the Top tiers or at least good results whilst being used as a solo character. Matter of fact, I'd say these characters togheter with a Top Tier main as would work wonders.

Niche choices with limited viability (definitely NEED another character to be tournament viable)

**

&: They carry a lot of potential I feel, but just aren't used that much anymore.

Borderline:

>

Unimpressive characters with either one good High or Top Tier matchup that might make them relevant somehow. Likely won't be seen much, if any time at all.

Quite damn bad, should never use unless ironically:

>>(all 3 variations of Mii)

I hereby conclude that just 8 characters () are actually unusable in tournament enviorment. And am still sort of shakey on and the Miis. They could hold some future potential, Shulk especially with some slight frame data buffs.

That's just 8 characters who are completely useless. Compare that with Melee, which had and I think we good. Brawl also had horendously bad characters with; and so much stupid stuff like invalidating characters, wobbling, 's lasers, losing soly to chaingrabs... 's existance. 's weird *** hitboxes and being insanely heavy weight.

We've become quite far, and I think Sakurai deserves some respect for this.

imo, this is a great list so far. i almost completely agree with your choices. thumbs up.

 

[bc1910]

Mid / High Tier is gonna be huge. So many characters that are on the binge of being viable, it's amazing.

For me, the clear Top Tiers are (ordened in groups through ">"):

>
>
>
>
***

: Underdeveloped meta as of now but definitely a contender of Top Tier later on
: Despite not being as good as the others listed here, he's still a league ahead above the other characters.
: ^

High Tier contenders (in no particular order this time):

*

: Not too sure of Corrin at this current moment, but he looks strong so far.

These characters have good matchups with the Top tiers or at least good results whilst being used as a solo character. Matter of fact, I'd say these characters togheter with a Top Tier main as would work wonders.

Niche choices with limited viability (definitely NEED another character to be tournament viable)

**

&: They carry a lot of potential I feel, but just aren't used that much anymore.

Borderline:

>

Unimpressive characters with either one good High or Top Tier matchup that might make them relevant somehow. Likely won't be seen much, if any time at all.

Quite damn bad, should never use unless ironically:

>>(all 3 variations of Mii)

I hereby conclude that just 8 characters () are actually unusable in tournament enviorment. And am still sort of shakey on and the Miis. They could hold some future potential, Shulk especially with some slight frame data buffs.

That's just 8 characters who are completely useless. Compare that with Melee, which had and I think we good. Brawl also had horendously bad characters with; and so much stupid stuff like invalidating characters, wobbling, 's lasers, losing soly to chaingrabs... 's existance. 's weird *** hitboxes and being insanely heavy weight.

We've become quite far, and I think Sakurai deserves some respect for this.

I have nitpicks about your ordering but it barely matters; your choices are perfect.

I'd move Wario up though because the character definitely has legs. A few results are there and his MU spread is solid.

I'm just gonna go ahead and post my ordering because I never post tier lists.

Top
SS:
S:

High
A:
B:

Middle:
C:
D:
E:
F:

Notes:

• Sheik gets her own tier due to having the best results and MUs by a fair margin but don't let the "SS" fool you into thinking she's anywhere near as dominant as or even ; she's not.
• ZSS, Rosie and Diddy are about as good as each other and are on a similar level. If any were to drop on the tier list I'd actually think it would be Rosalina.
• Bayo will probably rise into top tier. She's clearly amazing and is already tearing things up. Right now I'm going to avoid being overly presumptuous but it's clear she has what it takes.
• High tier should be fairly self explanatory with the scarier characters in A. Pikachu might deserve to be there but probably not and he lands just outside top 10.
• Toon Link takes 15th here but as I said, it's not hugely important. TL, the Pits and Lucario all have extremely good MU spreads.
• D tier is where the -2 MUs start coming in, with Greninja and Ike having a Sheik weakness. They're as strong as C tier otherwise. Corrin could rise, again I'm erring on the side of caution.
• The E tiers generally have multiple -2 MUs. They are solid characters capable of top 8 placements though. Mewtwo is on the rise.
• Putting Luigi that low will probably raise some eyebrows lol. But I'm... so over Luigi. MUs aren't there, results aren't there, bleh. Overnerfed but he was so unhealthy for the game that it's probably a good thing.
• I haven't listed anyone below Marth because I think everyone else is fairly irrelevant at the moment. This is still 36 usable characters, which is pretty amazing. G&W is close to being decent. We need to work on his hoo hah kill percents.

Please keep comments, opinions and pitchfork-wielding criticism constructive.

 

[Deleted member]

Mid / High Tier is gonna be huge. So many characters that are on the binge of being viable, it's amazing.

For me, the clear Top Tiers are (ordened in groups through ">"):

>
>
>
>
***

: Underdeveloped meta as of now but definitely a contender of Top Tier later on
: Despite not being as good as the others listed here, he's still a league ahead above the other characters.
: ^

High Tier contenders (in no particular order this time):

*

: Not too sure of Corrin at this current moment, but he looks strong so far.

These characters have good matchups with the Top tiers or at least good results whilst being used as a solo character. Matter of fact, I'd say these characters togheter with a Top Tier main as would work wonders.

Niche choices with limited viability (definitely NEED another character to be tournament viable)

**

&: They carry a lot of potential I feel, but just aren't used that much anymore.

Borderline:

>

Unimpressive characters with either one good High or Top Tier matchup that might make them relevant somehow. Likely won't be seen much, if any time at all.

Quite damn bad, should never use unless ironically:

>>(all 3 variations of Mii)

I hereby conclude that just 8 characters () are actually unusable in tournament enviorment. And am still sort of shakey on and the Miis. They could hold some future potential, Shulk especially with some slight frame data buffs.

That's just 8 characters who are completely useless. Compare that with Melee, which had and I think we good. Brawl also had horendously bad characters with; and so much stupid stuff like invalidating characters, wobbling, 's lasers, losing soly to chaingrabs... 's existance. 's weird *** hitboxes and being insanely heavy weight.

We've become quite far, and I think Sakurai deserves some respect for this.

Pretty solid placings, Diddy. I like it a lot!

I do have a question though: what do you think Zard or Roy has to keep them relevant? You put them in a group of characters that have a decent high/top tier MU, but I can't think of a character that Zard or Roy beats that's so high. I wouldn't put Link or Roy above Wii Fit considering she has much better results than either characters, but that's just me most likely.

Also, I just noticed. You didn't list Palutena.

 

[Routa]

To thous who are posting their Tier lists...

Please tell which set (Guest 1111, Guest XXXX or Any size XXXX) Miis are using in your Tier list. Thank you.

 

[Vipermoon]

This happened in 1.0.4. Sheik's Uair has had 4 hitboxes for literally a year.

I know it was 1.0.4. You seem to forget when that was. It was Novemeber 2014, the first patch the Wii U used.

 

[bc1910]

I know it was 1.0.4. You seem to forget when that was. It was Novemeber 2014, the first patch the Wii U used.

Oh I think I misread your post sorry. I thought you said 1.1.4.

 

[G. Stache]

limited viability (definitely NEED another character to be tournament viable)

Okay, I know this is about to sound biased and all: but Luigi doesn't need any secondary to place high...in theory (practice hasn't proven kind to Luigi, I'll admit). I've already noted how the 3 queens are only around a -1 MU for Luigi. Nothing too dificult at all. Is it still losing? Yeah, but not nearly as bad as something like Falcon vs Sheik (or apparently Greninja vs Sheik). Not to mention that he goes even or wins against most high tiers. From my experience: the only really troubling MUs for Luigi are Mega man (who doesn't get much rep, to my knowledge) and Pac Man (probably just me who has trouble in this MU, not Luigi). Special mentions to Cloud who's extremely annoying as all hell on stage, but as easy as Little Mac off stage as Cyclone is the free-est gimping tool in that MU. Every other MU besides those three trouble MUs I listed are perfectly doable.

I understand that Luigi has been a bit neglected as of late (very upsetting BEAST performance) but with positive MU spread against high tiers and no terrible Top Tier MUs, I honestly don't see Luigi being on the same level as someone who has debatably an 8-2 or 7-3 against Sheik (Mega man) or someone who doesn't have many good high tier MUs and has seemingly dropped off the face of the Earth (Pac Man). While I don't know exactly where Luigi is in this current metagame, I feel as if his MU spread and tools at hand are just above the likes of Megaman, Pac Man, and Olimar (not discussed, but DaBuzz has said that he has no winning MUs against high tiers).

Again, I have a bit of bias towards my main. That should go without saying. But I don't understand what makes people view Luigi as quite that underwhelming. Feel free to share with me. Probably something I'm missing, not you guys.


EDIT: just a question, as I'm genuinely curious, wasn't Lucario said to have a horrible MU against ZSS and possibly Cloud? I'm not too sure about the character in general, so I'm just wondering. I'd also imagine that his Ryu MU can't be that great...but, again, no clue.

 

[Diddy Kong]

bc1910 : Yes Wario was really difficult to place for me honestly. Abadango used this character a lot, and had decent results with Pac-Man and Wario. I still think Wario is extremely viable, but under-utalised. That made it real hard for me to place him. There's never really been one strictly loyal Wario main who places high. I do think he has about as much potential as he had in Brawl tho!

@Feelicks : Is Palutena in this game!? Yeah, jokes aside... I literally forgot about her. But she might hold as much potential as Samus. Honestly, I really don't know that much about her, other than that no Customs screws her over completely. From reading this thread tho, she's probably Samus-tier.

G. Stache : Yes I know Luigi doesn't fare badly against the Top Tiers. But which matchup do you think he outrighely wins in Top Tier? Diddy used to be a good matchup for Luigi untill Diddy got buffs in KO Power, and Luigi nerfs in the same regard. So I'd now consider it even, maybe slightly in Diddy's advantage. Fox is probably in the same category for Fox, and Luigi isn't beating his brother or Sonic either. Ryu and Pikachu are also most likely bad matchups (less confident about Pikachu- but Pika is overrated anyway). And now you also mention Cloud as a bad matchup, I don't think Luigi is gonna be all too impressive without a better character to cover up his weaknesses. His nerfs could've also contributed to not too many people playing him now, so in a way, he's much like Wario. Got potential, but under-utalised. I still don't think is anywhere better than the likes of
for example. But he fits well with the likes of .

About ... I wouldn't classify him as outright unviable because he got the same syndrome as ; he's just a total different beast with Customs on and quite unattractive to use without them. He's heavily underutalised, but I think his matchup against Sheik keeps him out of the absolute Bottom Tier. Rock Smash is an awesome tool and gives him survival strenght, making his rage game terrifying for all who don't have good kill set ups against Zard. I think of him as the ideal 'element of surprise' character, a character that will triumph once used against people who don't know **** about the matchup. and belong to this 'tier' to. So I might actually pull Ganondorf out of the Bottom Tier Pit, but Ganon is just sooooo slow...

Also, ... Yeah he's not all too amazing, but in the tier he sits in and everything below he can handle pretty easily. He's good against characters who don't like rushdown and don't have a lot of range, but this combination is pretty rare.

I also forgot to list and I noticed Nobody cares about them enough to notice.