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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Fatmanonice

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Falcon is a one trick pony: be stupidly aggressive and overwhelm your opponent. If a character has good defensive tactics, this falls through. He's like Little Mac except he actually has aerial and off stage options. For both characters, being defensive really doesn't do anything for them because their whole playstyle revolves around piling on damage and capitalizing on defensive mistakes, not hit and run (which is ironic given their speed). Both characters want close quarters combat and distance is a bad thing for both of them. If they're kept out, there's not much they can do.I'd argue that Falcon does best against characters with bad range, no projectiles, and/or poor aerial mobility, which is pretty much nobody in the top/high tiers.
 
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HoSmash4

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Falcon is a one trick pony: be stupidly aggressive and overwhelm your opponent. If a character has good defensive tactics, this falls through. He's like Little Mac except he actually has aerial and off stage options. For both characters, being defensive really doesn't do anything for them because their whole playstyle revolves around piling on damage and capitalizing on defensive mistakes, not hit and run (which is ironic given their speed). Both characters want close quarters combat and distance is a bad thing for both of them. If they're kept out, there's not much they can do.I'd argue that Falcon does best characters with bad range, no projectiles, and/or poor aerial mobility, which is pretty much nobody in the top/high tiers.
Optimal falcon is bait and punish. He plays footsies extremely well.
 
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williamsga555

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Surely Little Mac playing hyper-aggressive is a terrible gameplan for him. The man can't exactly camp, but it seems like most of his play-style is built entirely around bait-and-punish (knowledge of fighting terms is weak, but hasn't he been described as a super footsies-oriented character?). He has very little shield safety and can so rarely ever afford to hit disadvantage. Iunno, could be wrong, but he never seemed like a true offense-oriented character to me.

Also will say I think patient Falcon is best Falcon for similar reasons. Play safe until you break into advantage, then go hard with what you can get. (ninja'd)

For the record I think the most offense-oriented character in the cast is Bowser Jr. Doesn't mean he does it the best, but his entire kit seems 100% built around pressing advantage constantly, since most of his defensive options are really lacking (if only up smash had a bit more horizontal reach...) and he doesn't have enough mobility to play much of a baiting game.

Actually, that's something. Would love to hear who people think the most offense-based characters are.
 
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busken

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The only thing Mac and Falcon have in common is grounded mobility. Outside of that, they play very differently. Falcon capitalizes of burst options like dash grab and run-in n-airs while Mac focuses on spacing with tilts and smashes. Mac can't space with aerials at all and his burst options are simply bad and punishable(side b, dash grab/dash attack). You'd also never see a falcon spacing around with tilts or playing super patiently like good macs do.
 

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Diddy is quite damn offense-based, at least far more compared to Brawl. Neutral is all about getting advantage, and once you get advantage, you only play far more offensive. But Diddy is a trickster who also likes to look for openings, then strike. He's far more offensive than the other Top Tiers I'd say.

Fox is also a really offensive character. He has camping options for lasers, but that's only to force a reaction of his opponent. Fox is all about rush down, maybe even moreso than Diddy. His disadvantage state and light weight make it hard for him not to be on the offensive.
 

Fatmanonice

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Optimal falcon is bait and punish. He plays footsies extremely well.
For both characters, being defensive really doesn't do anything for them because their whole playstyle revolves around piling on damage and capitalizing on defensive mistakes, not hit and run (which is ironic given their speed). Both characters want close quarters combat and distance is a bad thing for both of them.
I pretty much said that.
 

Peppermint1201

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I've been starting to notice Fox's comeback potential is a lot like Greninja. They don't profit too much off of grab (definitely more true for Fox) but it seems like they just need a simple tilt or aerial and within a few hits they can turn a massive deficit to an even match. So many times has Larry Lurr done this, and it reminds me of watching iStudying.

http://oddshot.tv/shot/2ggaming-201602284122972
 
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Diddy Kong

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Mewtwo can make amazing comebacks to. He has the combo ability and power to just finish opponents off in just, 5 or 6 moves. With rage, make that 4~5, especially on lighter characters. D Tilt, F Air, N Air, Smash attack / Shadow Ball, gone. Now truely Mewtwo is a good representation of a glass canon, not the garbage like he was before.
 

Fatmanonice

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I'd also argue that Falcon and Little Mac are very momentum based. When they're on a roll, they're pretty scary but it only takes a mistake for them to be carried across the stage too. It doesn't take much to take the wind out of their sails, especially Mac when just about anyone can throw him off the stage and put him in a vulnerable spot. Characters like Fox, Metaknight, Pikachu, and Sheik are momentum based too but some key differences are that they have kill confirms and, if they get knocked off stage, it's more likely they'll come back than not. Falcon's recovery is one of the most linear in the game so when he has to come back, you almost always know which route he's going to take. Forgoing the ledge is risky and trying to recovery high is practically not an option. This said, the momentum shifts heavily when Falcon is offstage, even if he's the one leading the offensive. Off stage, I'd argue he's neutral at best because once his second jump is gone, his options evaporate.
 

Diddy Kong

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Falcon still has an actual chance of going back to the stage.

Mac...? :rolleyes:
 

FallofBrawl

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Offstage Little Mac is basically a 50/50 situation. When he makes his way to the ledge, it comes down to "should I go for the surprise aerial, or should I wait for his counter/airdodge?"
 

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I'd also argue that Falcon and Little Mac are very momentum based. When they're on a roll, they're pretty scary but it only takes a mistake for them to be carried across the stage too. It doesn't take much to take the wind out of their sails, especially Mac when just about anyone can throw him off the stage and put him in a vulnerable spot. Characters like Fox, Metaknight, Pikachu, and Sheik are momentum based too but some key differences are that they have kill confirms and, if they get knocked off stage, it's more likely they'll come back than not. Falcon's recovery is one of the most linear in the game so when he has to come back, you almost always know which route he's going to take. Forgoing the ledge is risky and trying to recovery high is practically not an option. This said, the momentum shifts heavily when Falcon is offstage, even if he's the one leading the offensive. Off stage, I'd argue he's neutral at best because once his second jump is gone, his options evaporate.

I think Diddy is momentum based to some extent as well; any time he sends you far, he gets to pull out another banana so that he can do it again.
 

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Re: Smash 4

Smash 4 as a 'fighter', in comparison to other Smash games more so other fighters focuses heavily on stage control and positioning; which mimics traditional fighters more. There is a heavy emphasis on grab set ups such that two battling players are trying to avoid whilst at the same time not being pushed into a corner. Maximising punishments has taken a different stance since Brawl, and while it is still the most understandable representation of how a match is going it is mixing in technical execution and a generally tougher frame trap game (due to air dodge / rolls being incredibly good; and this is why stage control is the most important thing in this game as it limits these tools tremendously).
Mobility ties into being able to maintain stage control, apply the most pressure in neutral and applying damage in advantage.

Re: Marth
He's definitely usable. His tools are no longer just 'there'/average or worse, the actions Marth are meant to be doing are now rewarded at a reasonable level.
Prior to this patch I doubt much of any character in the game would trade their Forward Air for ours. Now it can outspace the long range limbs (Sheik, ZSS) and can contest against Cloud's speed and range (my god was this pathetically one-sided before). The reward on hit isn't "resetting to neutral at best, enjoy pitiful damage" but something which kills and can have him take a stronger position from. It's ability to string together has improved a lot from that range buff, it's quite a bizarre contrast to me where that second fair actually hits your opponent because of it's range. Amazing
It's a functional move again. It serves a purpose. Yay.
And this is applying to a lesser extent to many of his moves after this patch; down tilt being the exception (oh my god is it godlike).
Despite down tilt being 2 frames more end lag, it's range and safety on shield (tippered) is now better than it was in Brawl.

Is he capable of reaching towards top level competence? I wouldn't deny it, yet. Becoming overhyped is dangerous.
But I will say that anyone with the fundamental smash skills and is coming from a reasonably solid Brawl Marth will be able to see renewed success.

Re: Roy
It's safe to say he is worse than Marth now, however I think the opposite was true before. Roy had more reach on his sword than Marth did prior to this patch and that's now been flipped over. Roy is still 'stronger' than Marth in a lot of areas, but the reality is that his match ups are going to be a lot more volatile.
Roy essentially cannot handle any character with spacing reward mechanics or who's range AND disjoint outdo him.
His flubs are too lazily put together (it's not melee bad, at least); usable ones like nair, fair, bair, dtilt scale in knockback enough to barely last longer as real combo-fuel than his sweetspots. In these match ups he's only ever capable of getting max range hits in and he will not get rewarded for it - he can't frame trap these characters after getting these hits in either. For example, the Marth match up is now truly abysmal; and while Marth seems to do pretty fine against Corrin and Bayonetta, Roy has little chance (imo) due to his telegraphed nature. Many characters can just kinda say "lol, no Roy, lol".
Not to say these cannot be conquered, I'm envisioning a really really slow paced game of aiming flubs, baiting and succinct hole making in opponent's defenses when they're available; but this is clearly not expressing the 'strengths' of his design.

Roy still has a much better combo game and amazing mobility specs. Against tangible limb using characters he has no overtly difficult match ups (bar sonic/fox, maybe).
I would hope they could buff his sword length (MATCH IT WITH MARTH FFS, DON'T FLIP FLOP; although if one is going to have a bigger sword than the other it DEFINITELY should be Roy). I would also hope that knockback on his flubs could be adjusted to make them more usable.
Bair's auto cancel (1 frame off for working on a short hop :<) and aerial blazer power would be nice in rounding him off.
But if there were no future patches, I think he's good enough to be enjoyable and has enough depth to be worth advancing. He isn't invalided by Marth at a game play level, however meta wise he may be.
 
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Fatmanonice

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Falcon still has an actual chance of going back to the stage.

Mac...? :rolleyes:
Right, he has a chance but, unless there's a wall for him to wall jump off of, you pretty much know where he's going to go. Mario's similar but, unlike Falcon, he can more reliably defend himself coming back and has an air stall so that he has a better shot at throwing off someone's timing or doing a fake out to get back. As other people have noted, Falcon's been on the decline since the summer because, like Yoshi, he's largely been figured out. He's not super complex and there are plenty of characters that can do what he can do but better.

On the topic of Roy: were any of his buffs all that relevant? It seems like his buffs were on par with Shulk's: helpful but not completely game changing. It's seems like all the optimism that people had for him when the last patch came out has already dissolved.
 
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C0rvus

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Mac is very flimsy, considering his disadvantaged state, but he also is given more chances to come back than most characters. The KO punch can turn a match into your favor, or it can secure a huge lead. Or it can do nothing. Mac really makes you play on point, or you lose. Interesting character. I also think his Sheik MU is better than most people think. 45-55 according to Sol.

Speaking of Sol, the amount of times he dies because of Mac's recovery being poor is far smaller than you would think. Dare I say it's a slightly overblown weakness? Been taking a hard look at Little Mac. It's been a weird day. Help me.
 

YerTheBestAROUND

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Yeah, bit of an overstatement on my part, but in most matchups his neutral has never felt threatening to me. Maybe because it seems pretty straightforward. His disadvantage is baaaaaad though, so maybe it just takes the edge off his neutral in practice.
Disadvantage is atrocious. No questioning it. He's a fast faller with a subpar recovery. Getting hit hurts. But neutral is one of his strong points. Very good foxtrot makes dance trotting a very good option and that alone really boosts his already pretty solid neutral. How he transitions from neutral to advantage is pretty simpple, it's either gonna be a bair, dash attack, or dash grab but who's to say simple isn't effective? Bair is safe on shield, dash attack is usually used as a mix-up so that if you've been grabbing maybe a bit too much you can still get pretty much the same combos started.

Surely Little Mac playing hyper-aggressive is a terrible gameplan for him. The man can't exactly camp, but it seems like most of his play-style is built entirely around bait-and-punish (knowledge of fighting terms is weak, but hasn't he been described as a super footsies-oriented character?). He has very little shield safety and can so rarely ever afford to hit disadvantage. Iunno, could be wrong, but he never seemed like a true offense-oriented character to me.

Also will say I think patient Falcon is best Falcon for similar reasons. Play safe until you break into advantage, then go hard with what you can get. (ninja'd)

For the record I think the most offense-oriented character in the cast is Bowser Jr. Doesn't mean he does it the best, but his entire kit seems 100% built around pressing advantage constantly, since most of his defensive options are really lacking (if only up smash had a bit more horizontal reach...) and he doesn't have enough mobility to play much of a baiting game.

Actually, that's something. Would love to hear who people think the most offense-based characters are.
Mac's pretty safe on shield when spaced optimally. Cornering someone on the ledge and pressuring shield is definitely one of his stronger areas, especially after the downward angled Fsmash buff. Much more reliable for breaking shields. Jab 1&2 > dtilt > down angled Fsmash can be pretty effective.

The only thing Mac and Falcon have in common is grounded mobility. Outside of that, they play very differently. Falcon capitalizes of burst options like dash grab and run-in n-airs while Mac focuses on spacing with tilts and smashes. Mac can't space with aerials at all and his burst options are simply bad and punishable(side b, dash grab/dash attack). You'd also never see a falcon spacing around with tilts or playing super patiently like good macs do.
Maybe not as patient but spacing around with ftilt in neutral, yes. It's a decent way to transition to advantage because it sets up for grabs. And both Mac and Falcon like Dance trotting (especially Mac). They're actually have a good amount in common playstyle wise. It's why I find it so much easier transitioning from Mac to Falcon or vice versa rather than Marth to Falcon.

If we look at the 4BR tier list, Falcon's MUs vs the top and high tiers go a little like this:
Sheik: 30:70 Sheik's favor. Look at all the characters around Falcon's placement on the tier list, what's one thing they all have in common? A lackluster MU with Shiek.
ZSS: 40:60 ZSS' favor. She's so safe on shield now, and she wins offstage. Both can combo each other fairly hard.
Rosalina: 60:40 Falcon's favor. We don't care much about Luma, he's pretty easy to swat away. Rosalina kinda likes to put up walls, Falcon's good at breaking those walls with sheer speed and power. Both die offstage to each other fairly easily. She's a light weight too which means Falcon's got some early-mid percent Knee set ups he can utilize out of dthrow. Uair to Knee is a solid combo on most of the cast at certain percents, but it applies a little more here.
Ryu: 45:55 Ryu's favor. Fast faller combos. They hurt.
Pikachu: 35:65 Pikachu's favor. Fast faller combos. Pikachu's small and annoying. Not as bad as Shiek, but fairly annoying.
Sonic: 5:5 Falcon can keep up with Sonic. If you time it right, jab clanks with spin dash, but just simply holding out jab doesn't work.
Fox: 5:5 Fast faller combos on both sides. They both destroy each other. Fox isn't very well known for his edge guards in this game though.
Mario: 5:5 or 45:55 Mario's favor. Mario's combos are pretty easy to avoid. You can shield utilt after Mario dthrow til about 18%, but Mario gets less utilts on Falcon at that point than he would have before. Mario also kind of struggles to kill reliably outside of smashes.
Diddy: 40:60 Diddy's favor. While not necessarily a 'hard' MU, Diddy's neutral and frame data are exceptional. He's not as scary as he was pre-nerf though because you can actually contend each other's uairs.
Meta Knight: 5:5 or 55:45 Falcon's favor. Don't get death comboed and you'll have no problems what so ever.
Villager: 5:5 break through his walls, don't over extend, mix up your recoveries offstage.It might take a while, but it's very much doable.
Cloud: I don't entirely know whether it's just me having issues with Cloud or if he actually wins but I wanna say 60:40 Cloud's favor. Huge disjoints are annoying,and he's got pretty good frame data to get out of combos. Nair is too annoying. Really weak to edge guards but this really applies to just about every character vs Cloud.
Ness: 60:40 Falcon's favor. Ness has lackluster mobility specs, PK fire is pretty easy to avoid, so Falcon . Normal Ness disadvantages that everyone can exploit.
He doesn't lose to anyone below him except maybe ROB and possibly Olimar but as was the case with Cloud, I don't entirely know if that's just a me problem or a Falcon problem, but I could easily see it being both. ROB's gyro is annoying, Olimar is just weird to fight and thus hard to judge.
I think Falcon's right around where he should be on the tier list, but I do think Greninja is better than he is, and Ike's around the same level as him. Over all his MU spread is pretty solid, just Shiek being a big issue but that's just kind of the life of being a Mid tier character.
 
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iVoltage

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I think Diddy Kong Diddy Kong mentioned mewtwo and I think he needs to be looked into more atm. Those were some real buffs and mewtwo feels good to play now. (Minus the weight rip) He's fast, powerful, has two kill throws, kill setups, great combo game using dtilt, uptilt, fair, bair, upair and Nair. He also has a fantastic recovery with just double jump and up b, and can swing momentum with side b. We have a few people doing good things with him atm, but really good sleeper right now for sure, I expect him to move into higher mid tier in the future.
 
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BananaBake

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Villager: 5:5 break through his walls, don't over extend, mix up your recoveries offstage.It might take a while, but it's very much doable.
I think the Villager MU is a little more in Villager's favor than Falcon's. His walls can be really hard to break through, mainly because of Villager's ability to camp on all fronts. Second, Falcon has a hard time mixing up his recovery, unless he has a wall to jump off, and most legal stages, (except DH, that I can think off) just don't have that. Third, Falcon has a tough time dealing with projectiles of any kind, not just Villager's. Fourth, If Falcon gets off stage and just can't mix up the recovery like you said to do, than he gets edgeguarded HARD. Two Nairs and a fair and he's done.
 

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I think most of the people in this thread understand Mewtwo has potential to be tapped. That being said, we all know what happened to Shulk's "potential"...
 

Y2Kay

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But did Shulk have impressive early results like Mewtwo did after the buffs?

This is a legitimate question, I didn't really follow the scene in the 3DS days.

:150:
 

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But did Shulk have impressive early results like Mewtwo did after the buffs?

This is a legitimate question, I didn't really follow the scene in the 3DS days.

:150:
I know Ally used him as a secondary back then, don't remember anything else from him though.
 

wedl!!

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There were Shulks in 3DS/early Wii U days (like Ally, 9B, Trela) but they didn't do anything with the character.
 

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That last bit of "potential" Shulk ever had dwindled away when 1.1.4 dropped.

This patch has completely invalidated Shulk as a character because of all the buffs to the other swordsmen in the game. Plus, the introduction of Cloud and Corrin.

Range appeared to be Shulk's niche, but now Ike's F-Air outranges his.



Corrin's F-Smash outranges Shulk's B-Air and F-Smash as well as being faster than both and having better recovery and active frames than Shulk's F-Smash.


Marth and Lucina's range buffs also bring them that much closer to Shulk's, their and Ike's damage buffs make Shulk's lower than average damage and kill power more apparent, and while Shulk's counter still lasts long, Corrin's will often kill earlier.

If this is truly the last patch I'm a bit upset at the balance team.

They're still clinging onto this unnecessarily sluggish design while giving minimal buffs to important areas, yet they've buffed and introduced other fighters with tools so good they outclass Shulk's in almost every way.

Even top players like 9B and Trela couldn't make him work, he is prehaps the most "proved" bad fighter in the game.

I can't think of any reason why anybody would invest their time in this character, when several other play his own game better.
 

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I know Ally used him as a secondary back then, don't remember anything else from him though.
Yep, Ally used him in 3DS, before the game was that well understood.

He only used him once during the glory days of Diddy Kong's Hoo-hah, in GFs vs DKWill in the first Get On My Level. He used Mario for the rest of top 8 matches though, and now he only uses Shulk for fun. He's had more success using Marth (pre-patch Marth!) and Falco as secondaries.
 
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C0rvus

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I think most of the people in this thread understand Mewtwo has potential to be tapped. That being said, we all know what happened to Shulk's "potential"...
Potential is a buzzword now. Mewtwo has promise. He has strong tools that generally outweigh his weaknesses. He lacks top level representation, and has a few high level players getting good regional or local results. Mew^2 and Blue come to mind, I have no clue if Ginko still plays him but he was a secondary anyway.
 

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I think the Villager MU is a little more in Villager's favor than Falcon's. His walls can be really hard to break through, mainly because of Villager's ability to camp on all fronts. Second, Falcon has a hard time mixing up his recovery, unless he has a wall to jump off, and most legal stages, (except DH, that I can think off) just don't have that. Third, Falcon has a tough time dealing with projectiles of any kind, not just Villager's. Fourth, If Falcon gets off stage and just can't mix up the recovery like you said to do, than he gets edgeguarded HARD. Two Nairs and a fair and he's done.
I disagree. I do agree with Falcon vs Villager being about even. Off stage, Villager clearly wins but it doesn't take much for Falcon to break through Villager's defenses thanks to his speed. Villager can knock him away but it doesn't take long for Falcon to bounce right back. Villager's close range option's aren't super great either. His most common options are his jab, ftilt, short hopped nair, and one of the worst standing grabs in the game. A shielded jab, ftilt, and nair is just asking for a jab or dash grab follow up and whiffing a grab against Falcon is pretty much a free fsmash. Villager's also not hard to catch up to thanks to his speed both in the air and on the ground so Falcon can go into full blown shark-in-the-water mode if Villager is put in a disadvantage state. Falcon vs Villager can go south very fast for either party. All in all, Villager is not good in close combat situations aside from read Flintstone-esque bowling ball kills and clutch utilt/dtilt kills.
 
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Potential is a buzzword now. Mewtwo has promise. He has strong tools that generally outweigh his weaknesses. He lacks top level representation, and has a few high level players getting good regional or local results. Mew^2 and Blue come to mind, I have no clue if Ginko still plays him but he was a secondary anyway.
Rich Brown also mains Mewtwo now.
 

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Potential is a buzzword now. Mewtwo has promise. He has strong tools that generally outweigh his weaknesses. He lacks top level representation, and has a few high level players getting good regional or local results. Mew^2 and Blue come to mind, I have no clue if Ginko still plays him but he was a secondary anyway.
Yeah. Potential. I remember when Mewtwo was nearly garbage and I regretted paying 4.99 USD for hhiim. Now, he looks really promising on the tourney scene, and is growing quite fast. Shame they couldn't do that to the other DLCs

I disagree. I do agree with Falcon vs Villager being about even. Off stage, Villager clearly wins but it doesn't take much for Falcon to break through Villager's defenses thanks to his speed. Villager can knock him away but it doesn't take long for Falcon to bounce right back. Villager's close range option's aren't super great either. His most common options are his jab, ftilt, short hopped nair, and one of the worst standing grabs in the game. A shielded jab, ftilt, and nair is just asking for a jab or dash grab follow up and whiffing a grab against Falcon is pretty much a free fsmash. Villager's also not hard to catch up to thanks to his speed both in the air and on the ground so Falcon can go into full blown shark-in-the-water mode if Villager is put in a disadvantage state. Falcon vs Villager can go south very fast for either party. All in all, Villager is not good in close combat situations aside from read Flintstone-esque bowling ball kills and clutch utilt/dtilt kills.
I suppose. Short hop Dair is actually a nice option though, as it has a really laggy hitbox and has enough priority to overcome most approaches. And yeah, grabs for Villager aren't really an option as the lag is terrible, but Up Smash is an okay option, as the hitbox comes out frame 13, which isn't disastrous, but yeah grabs except pivot beat it. Fair has significant knockback, and getting Falcon offstage can give villager time to recuperate and set up again around the middle of the stage.
 
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meleebrawler

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In terms of "agressive" characters, those who use superior frame data and ideally mobility to overwhelm opponents: we mainly have the following: :4mario:, :4kirby:, :4diddy:, :4sheik: (needle camping, as effective as it is is still a plan b), :4rob:, :4feroy:, :4fox: and :4zss:.

Then there are characters who may normally benefit more from a more defensive, bait-and-punish style but have the capacity to mount aggression when necessary or as a mixup (not just to maximise advantage): :4lucas:, :4peach:, :4samus:, :4villager:, :4mewtwo:, :rosalina:.

Bowser Jr. I don't consider an "aggressive" character in that sense, and if it was solely predicated on his clown car then we may as well call Sonic aggressive too. He instead creates traps with his mechakoopa or employs mixups to open up his opponent, mainly just spacing back in the meantime. In this way he is also kind of similar to Pac-Man or Duck Hunt.
 

Y2Kay

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Which are...?


EDIT: How well did MewSquared do at that one tournament?
He double eliminated Mew2King (3-0'd his cloud, which is huge, and 3-2'd his DK on the rematch. Got 2nd to DKWill)

Also Blue beat Nairo and has done a lot better after the switch from SONIC.

Which I think is also a big deal.

I can't recall Shulk doing anything like that near release, or ever.

:150:
 
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|RK|

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In terms of "agressive" characters, those who use superior frame data and ideally mobility to overwhelm opponents: we mainly have the following: :4mario:, :4kirby:, :4diddy:, :4sheik: (needle camping, as effective as it is is still a plan b), :4rob:, :4feroy:, :4fox: and :4zss:.

Then there are characters who may normally benefit more from a more defensive, bait-and-punish style but have the capacity to mount aggression when necessary or as a mixup (not just to maximise advantage): :4lucas:, :4peach:, :4samus:, :4villager:, :4mewtwo:, :rosalina:.

Bowser Jr. I don't consider an "aggressive" character in that sense, and if it was solely predicated on his clown car then we may as well call Sonic aggressive too. He instead creates traps with his mechakoopa or employs mixups to open up his opponent, mainly just spacing back in the meantime. In this way he is also kind of similar to Pac-Man or Duck Hunt.
Kirby is not an aggressive character, tbh.
 

Luig

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It's kinda funny that a character like :4myfriends: has better frame data than :4shulk: .
Shulk is almost invalidated.
Shulk should be less laggy.
 
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Baby_Sneak

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After playing bayonetta for a couple of minutes, I think bat within is vastly overrated. 1 frame activation off of rolls? Okay lol good luck timing that. Sounds like hardcore 3rd strike parrys with far less reward to me.
 

DblCrest

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Kirby is not an aggressive character, tbh.
Given how his moves get out prioritised a lot and his mobility is awful.
Sure when he gets in he can deal a lot of damage but that's just it...he can't. I know characters are supposed to have weaknesses and all but with flaws such as those that greatly hinder his ways to deal damage I can only seem him as being a supposed 'menace' in more local or casual settings.

ROB I'm not sure what say...is a more CQC playstyle more optimal than walling out with lasers and gyros?
 

C0rvus

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It's the air dodge that matters a ton more. She can escape Sheik's 50/50. That is huge. If your move doesn't true combo, Bayonetta puts the kaibosh on that ****.
 

The Revolutionary Cafe

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I feel :4shulk: is pretty under used so much that I can't make a proper judgement if he is truly underrated but I feel he could be especially considering how unexplored a lot of uses that the monados ultimately have.

I know most airdodge intangibilty starts on frame 3, but when can bat within be activated?
Frame 1
 
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