Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Deleted member]

Buffing his already very good moves won't do much, most odds that the only way Dorf can be completely viable is if you make him dumb as hell.

That, or if Sakurai is still hellbent on him being Captain Falcon's grandpa.

Real talk though, I'm agreement with this. If anything he needs general better movement and a more threatening onstage presence (along with aforementioned moves like Wizkick, Dark Dive and jab not being terrible), but I won't say anything I don't know about considering I'm not huge on Ganon knowledge like you are.

 

[Luco]

In regards to what @Eugene Wang was saying, it's true that a lot of what you see in this thread is 'I don't believe this character is top/bottom x, I believe they're actually y tier', and it's true that when you're impressed by something you tend to rate it highly over what you think HAS to define a certain tier.

To be more specific as an example, Ganon does well against a decent chunk of the cast even whilst losing horribly to certain higher tiers and has a few relevant tourney results as well. People who see that and are impressed with him are likely going to tell you 'he can't be bottom 5' because of how potent he seems to be, and the idea in people's minds is that if someone's on the bottom, surely that should show in their MUs with everyone else, right?

A lot of people will say a lot of things about characters / people they're impressed with. At the end of the day everyone has their own opinions, so bottom 5 is clear to me but different to everyone else's bottom 5, and it just appears that this thread is all over the place because our opinions are often so similar here (relatively) that someone saying that 'this character is y tier!' sounds like most of the thread is saying that. But realistically each person here could probably name a bottom 5 that makes sense to them and doesn't contradict their other recent posts in this thread.

That was probably hard to read, sorry.

Anyway, I think I'd like to give some random thoughts about how I think the tier list may or may not change between this iteration and the next. I'll be character specific here, and arranging my thoughts starting at top tier and moving down:

Spoiler

I think , and are going to be dethroned and others will take #s 4, 5 and 6 over them, namely , and (or even ). This especially applies to the former who I think is actually going to wind up outside of top 10 eventually. Mostly due to how their results are going atm, and also about their MU spreads.

might also move down, but I'm not really sure who would go in front of him other than the characters who already do. It'll probably look more accurate once Bayo inserts herself in there.

is going down. A real shame too, it seems less and less of the 64 vets are sticking around in the upper echelons where they all used to belong. Unless he gets results and quick, he'll pull a on us (she might move down even further, too).

Feeling like will probably land around Oli's tier somewhere in the long run, as much as I want them to be leading C tier.

I think and may rise, but that will depend on the consistency of their results in the long run and probably their meta development too.

If actually finds some good rep, he'll go up like everyone wants him to and join Mewtwo in mid tier. If not, RIP him for the next tier list.

and will probably be replaced by the likes of and get bumped down into low tier. Bowser moreso because of patch changes but both of them really never deserved mid imo and other characters are making bigger splashes.

Dunno really what has going for him right now, and I think he'll probably slip down as time passes too, at least below the likes of G&W and WFT.

I think people are slowly realising the mistake that was passive nerfing, and is going to be the biggest victim. Would not be surprised if Monado Boy ends up in bottom tier, and it's really saddening for such a unique character.

On the other hand, are going up. Can't say no to that competent neutral game of theirs now. Pugwest leading the way for a whole lot of new Marth mains getting local and regional success, and Luci is still moving up if by virtue of hanging on to the same rope. Also I'm not sure if the difference between Luci and Marth places them in different tier names. I personally don't think it does, at least not now.

By the way, might move down a couple of spots, or might move up. Either way, I think Link will probably end up above Falco next time unless something good comes along for everyone's favourite air fighter. But I don't know if Link will be moving up significantly higher anytime soon (sorry Larry).

I... Don't know what to think about at this point in time, and his mains seem to have accepted whatever fate he has with the kind of hard resolve you'd expect to see in a cowboy who once lost his entire family to a gang of thugs he can't possibly beat or take revenge on.

I believe in Freeing the Miis, and I also think that's likely to end up being the standard given the community poll on it. Once that happens, I'll expect to see all 3 move up significantly higher, but won't actually end up as high as everyone thinks he will.

Also don't know what to make of , but I'm more inclined to think he's better than his position than he is worse. For instance I could see him edging out characters like DHD and Shulk into Bottom tier.

Dunno if will actually move up, but I want him to. By process of elimination there will definitely be characters I won't want to see in bottom 5 (because of that perception I spoke of earlier), who will be there anyway, like and possibly still Ganny. I don't think will end up there though.

Also I like that a lot of these postulations came as a result of stuff brought up in this thread (some of it wasn't though, I research in more places than just the 1 thread guys it's ok). I feel like we're more on top of getting evidence and tournament results than we used to be, and also are better at discussing it.

 

[C0rvus]

I pretty much agree with all that tier list talk, Luco. The character shifts are almost all on par with my own line of thinking.

Everyone has a different bottom 5, mostly because everyone has characters they don't believe should be that low. For me, that's Palutena. She just functions enough and has enough decent players that I cannot consider her bottom 5 personally, but I could certainly rationalize putting her there.

Also, can we just let Mii players play the sets they want? There are so few of them I don't see time being much of an issue. Especially at locals, they pretty much only need to put their set on every setup once. And don't we as players want to learn those matchups anyway?

Even easier, everyone who uses their console as a tournament setup, make a basic mii of every size. Boom. Takes less than a minute to make a set now. Just a thought.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Either she is super easy to use or she's completely overpowered

Neither.

 

[HoSmash4]

Either she is super easy to use or she's completely overpowered

Potentially both.

 

[Megamang]

All righty, I can predict this not going anywhere, so lets talk about something else.


As far as relevance goes, I want to say that Captain Falcon is actually one of Megaman's worst MUs. His jab beats out pellets clean, and his ridiculous dashgrab is the exact kind of zone breaker that megaman dislikes.

And I wanted to leave you guys with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxKj0QbJz0U

Its some more recent megaman play, and shows how the character is developing. Note the lack of slow moving pellet zoning we usually see, combined with really frequent Nair hitbox usage and really really fast and strong metal blade mixups. This I think is where megaman is going, though also some Scatt style waiting and pelleting could be very usable, of course depending on the matchup.

Also note the uair. It was frame positive on shield before the shieldstun patch made lots of stuff safe. It didn't benefit that much, but it still got better and is safe once it comes out. It does a lot of pressure, and if they drop shield or try a defensive option they get combo'd for about 30%, possibly more. It also starts to kill, especially with rage.


Thoughts?

 

[Greward]

Neither.

How else would you explain the fact that a bunch of players who struggled to make top8 are suddenly having top placements beating other top players?
The only thing all these players share in common is the fact that they picked up bayonetta

 

[Megamang]

Well, who were those top players paying before? No one is denying that Bayonetta is good, but if they were all bottom tier heros with lots of skill and they suddenly pick up a viable character, of course they are going to have a boon in results.


Anyways, it also matters if these results are sustained. Once people learn the matchup, is she still a top threat? That remains to be seen. As long as people are still approaching with HSK and it works, I can't take the match seriously.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Pretty sad the megaman is relatively ignored considering all the hype surrounding him when he was released. I guess no one got accustomed to his playstyle

 

[G. Stache]

All righty, I can predict this not going anywhere, so lets talk about something else.


As far as relevance goes, I want to say that Captain Falcon is actually one of Megaman's worst MUs. His jab beats out pellets clean, and his ridiculous dashgrab is the exact kind of zone breaker that megaman dislikes.

And I wanted to leave you guys with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxKj0QbJz0U

Its some more recent megaman play, and shows how the character is developing. Note the lack of slow moving pellet zoning we usually see, combined with really frequent Nair hitbox usage and really really fast and strong metal blade mixups. This I think is where megaman is going, though also some Scatt style waiting and pelleting could be very usable, of course depending on the matchup.

Also note the uair. It was frame positive on shield before the shieldstun patch made lots of stuff safe. It didn't benefit that much, but it still got better and is safe once it comes out. It does a lot of pressure, and if they drop shield or try a defensive option they get combo'd for about 30%, possibly more. It also starts to kill, especially with rage.


Thoughts?

Not gonna lie, that was my first time watching a Megaman of that caliber. I always put Megaman in the category of 'oh look, a camper/zoner'. So, when I see him on stream, I just zone out and kinda find something else to do while I hear the barrage of lemons in the background. But that set was...fantastic. It almost made me want to main the character myself. I think, if nothing else, that kind of play could draw people into playing Megaman. It could also be useful for dealing with rushdown. That Greninja seemed really flustered. Didn't see to be able to adapt enough to the Megaman

Anyways, just my two cents. Really impressive stuff. If all Megamen started playing like that, then I'd love to see this character on the rise

 

[Greward]

Pretty sad the megaman is relatively ignored considering all the hype surrounding him when he was released. I guess no one got accustomed to his playstyle

Mega Man isn't ignored, he's just a mid tier in a game with over 50 characters, so there isn't much to talk about him. He beats diddy/ryu/sonic in the high tiers, has an unwinnable matchup against sheik and struggles against most others high tiers.
He has a strong neutral but bad killing options and low damage output.

Well, who were those top players paying before? No one is denying that Bayonetta is good, but if they were all bottom tier heros with lots of skill and they suddenly pick up a viable character, of course they are going to have a boon in results.

Anyways, it also matters if these results are sustained. Once people learn the matchup, is she still a top threat? That remains to be seen. As long as people are still approaching with HSK and it works, I can't take the match seriously.

There were some mid tier players along with some high/top tier players like Salem (who played zss I think). Anyways it's very hard to assume they could have done the same with Sheik (which is considered the best character).

Yes, bayo hasn't been consistently being a top threat for more than a month, but it's not like we can expect her to be. This just sounds as a lazy excuse at this point tbh.

 

[Y2Kay]

Pretty sad the megaman is relatively ignored considering all the hype surrounding him when he was released. I guess no one got accustomed to his playstyle

Only on mobile, man

Phone malfunctions are the best.

 

[DanGR]

[...] despite the Rosa MU being seen as a -2 for Diddy most of the time).

Except this was never the case, unless you listen to Diddy players that complain and run into Luma jabs 24/7, misuse side-b, and throw bananas at Luma all the time. It's more likely the matchup is somewhere around even, give or take.

 

[RDR7]

Ganon does not need a read to kill Jigglypuff. Even some of his weaker moves like D-tilt or Dash Attack will easily kill Puff sub 90 without rage. And if Ganon does land a hard read, Jigglypuff won't "die at 60", she'll be lucky to survive at 40.

And why does "Jigglypuff has trouble with Ganon's N-air and U-air" translate to "Ganon will be SH N-airing every second of the match"? It's an option Ganon has that he can use to stuff Puff jumps when she's out of her range.

As for Ganon as a whole, the only real problem he suffers from is that he has too many unrewarding moves. If his reward was more consistent across his moveset I'd call him viable without a doubt.

I didn't insinuate Ganondorf will use nair throughout the match. That is the move he mentioned being harmful for puff in the mu which is why I discussed it. Also dtilt and dash attack don't kill her easily sub 90. These are the kill percents with normal DI FRESH. The stage I tested was smashville.
Dash attack: 105%
Dtilt: 96%

Not sub 90. Props for getting somewhat close. Just be sure to lab before you make a claim.

Gonna be honest here, Jiggs doesn't have much to get in on Ganon with. She's weaving in and out with airdodges to compensate for her frankly poor range, maybe using pound to threaten shield but also guaranteeing a punish on her on block in the hope that they'll use their shield again in the next 15 seconds. Unlike your high tier main (unless you're *cries* ), Ganon can and will be threatening her in neutral, and that's not to mention how few correct choices he needs in neutral to end that balloon's stock.

Which isn't to say Jiggs can't kill early, either. I've seen Puff players who are so terrifying with rest punishes that you start calculating the MU as if your stock average mortality is 55%. Jiggs vastly out-performs Ganon offstage and will probably be getting a stock or a billion percent every time he's out there, but in return Ganon is laughing all over her failure of an excuse for neutral which is what she needs to win in order to put Ganon offstage, and I just don't think she does that consistently enough.

Ganon's frame data isn't exactly the best. In which almost (notice I said almost) any situation I shield an attack and he is above 38 percent, this is when Dash attack is safe on hit. Being a great out of shield option I can use it for damage, and eventually from jab either kill him at the edge or get him offstage using jab -> dash attack. It's an easy option and I find it helpful. Getting him to that damage is not difficult either. I can use ffupair to start combos along with dair which leads into most of puff's kit including footstool. Ganon's grab game is almost obsolete on puff considering her size and I can crouch flame choke, not sure about grab haven't tested that so I won't assume. (Don't use flame choke against puff) Doesn't really matter as much because I don't see ganons grabbing a lot, but it's worth mentioning. To give you a rundown on rest punishes since you mentioned it, rest kill confirms start on ganon at 41. FFupair -> rest works at 41 - 56. Dair -> Rest works at 44 - 55. Dair is the safer option because fast fall up air has 15 frames of landing lag and is not safe on shield. I preferably use up air to rest when I'm in position to punish a laggy move. Also on the topic of early kills, dair -> footstool at the edge at 25 - whenever it will stop footstooling (I'll lab it later) can put ganon and anyone else with a bad recovery in a position forcing them to recover low. Fast fall dair will catch ganon's up b and put him in a position for wall of pain. This is not necessarily confirmed amazing just something worth mentioning.

 

[TheGlove]

All righty, I can predict this not going anywhere, so lets talk about something else.


As far as relevance goes, I want to say that Captain Falcon is actually one of Megaman's worst MUs. His jab beats out pellets clean, and his ridiculous dashgrab is the exact kind of zone breaker that megaman dislikes.

And I wanted to leave you guys with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxKj0QbJz0U

Its some more recent megaman play, and shows how the character is developing. Note the lack of slow moving pellet zoning we usually see, combined with really frequent Nair hitbox usage and really really fast and strong metal blade mixups. This I think is where megaman is going, though also some Scatt style waiting and pelleting could be very usable, of course depending on the matchup.

Also note the uair. It was frame positive on shield before the shieldstun patch made lots of stuff safe. It didn't benefit that much, but it still got better and is safe once it comes out. It does a lot of pressure, and if they drop shield or try a defensive option they get combo'd for about 30%, possibly more. It also starts to kill, especially with rage.


Thoughts?

I would be interested to hear your more detailed thoughts regarding this match up, or anyone's, considering that at least in a few months worth of vods Scatt was beating Fatality's Falcon with his Mega Man . I dont know what their over all record is, but he has been ahead of Fatality on the Georgia PR for at least 2 seasons now. I doubt that Fatality is behind Scatt as a player, the sets were still close, but what does it mean when the US's best Mega man was able to consistently take out its best Falcon. Scatt also took out Acid's Falcon at that one tournament he got top 4 at, TOXI maybe?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MJw-AvUNvI

Part of it seems to be that Scatt has figured out how to consistently edge guard Falcon, allowing him to freely rack up damage and score early KO's so perhaps Fatality is playing the match up wrong by not being conservative enough.

Perhaps Fatality has learned the match up better because the latest vids have Scatt counter picking with his pocket shiek. EDIT: upon further research most recent vids seem to show Fatality with the advantage once again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijDQA9xtqtg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b6uUKKdYlQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwxuwDE6PBc

Falcon has the Speed to get in and the power to rack up damage quickly and close out stocks relatively efficiently on Mega. On the flipside, Falcon's approach is somewhat linear so I feel like Mega can keep him out if he works hard enough. This plus edge guarding potential makes me wonder how bad this matchup is? Is it worse than Mario and Fox?

Mega Man seems to be in an unfortunate place in the meta. He has enough decent high tier match ups and midtier Matchcups to be a decent co main/ secondary/ counterpick, but he is one of the more difficult characters to learn and play so he doesn't warrant being picked up by someone looking for a secondary unless they really enjoy his style.

Also adding to his woes are that the characters that are commonly believed to be his worst match ups () are all common tournament characters mostly with comparatively lower skill floors. I hope Scatt starts going to more large tournaments so I can see how far he makes it in certain character composition brackets.

 

[Emblem Lord]

In other news, iiGGY just beat Mew^2 with after losing with Rosa. This is a bit discouraging, as this was one MU several people here (plausibly) theorized is OK for Mewtwo. It could be a fluke, but it's important to pay attention to this kind of stuff in the long run.

Why would this match be ok for a footsie oriented char (Mewtwo) vs a char that can ignore footsies and get hit confirms/kill confirms? (Bayonetta + dive kick = tears)

 

[Jams.]

Except this was never the case, unless you listen to Diddy players that complain and run into Luma jabs 24/7, misuse side-b, and throw bananas at Luma all the time. It's more likely the matchup is somewhere around even, give or take.

Zinoto believes the MU is 60:40 in Rosalina's favour (and even elaborates a bit about the MU in the comments). Granted, this was before he beat Dabuz so perhaps he changed how he plays the MU.

 

[BunbUn129]

I though Falcon did well against . Are these now considered to be poor MUs for him now?

Can't really say anything about the first 3, but Falcon definitely doesn't beat MK. At BEST, it's even. Falcon will generally win in neutral due to superior mobility, his godly dash grab, and bair spacing. However, he gets relatively low reward for winning neutral, because MK has such a strong disadvantage state, as he's exceedingly difficult to juggle and edgeguard. On the other hand, once Falcon loses neutral, his physics and lack of combo breakers will allow MK to rack up 30-40% easily. Combine that with a lack of proper coverage below him and an exploitable recovery, and Falcon's horrendous disadvantaged state gets shredded by MK's murderous advantage. To sum up, Falcon wins in neutral, but that in the grand scheme of things doesn't matter when his advantage and disadvantage are far outclassed by MK.

All of what I mentioned above can be seen in Ito's matches vs Tearbear, with Ito, AFAIK, having a winning record. Tearbear will generally win neutral more often, but Ito comes out on top because each of his neutral victories carries more weight. And you have to consider MK places better at majors, with a national victory, something Falcon hasn't come close to.

 

[Big-Cat]

How else would you explain the fact that a bunch of players who struggled to make top8 are suddenly having top placements beating other top players?
The only thing all these players share in common is the fact that they picked up bayonetta

There's a rather simple explanation. Bayonetta ****s on several conventions in Smash. Losing to her badly is truly having no matchup experience.

 

[meleebrawler]

Why would this match be ok for a footsie oriented char (Mewtwo) vs a char that can ignore footsies and get hit confirms/kill confirms? (Bayonetta + dive kick = tears)

Because he has a shadow ball that he'll gladly throw in her face or back if she dives in the wrong place or time (a disable if he's very lucky). And he won't have that much trouble getting them ready unless Bayonetta plays really aggressively, which gives Mewtwo more opportunities to punish.

Shadow Ball makes most of her approaches really unsafe in addition to her distance tools, leaving dive kick as the only real thing Mewtwo has to watch.

 

[Big-Cat]

Complaining about dive kicks? God it's SF4 all over again. Look, all you need to know with 236ABK is her angle and to hit her out of it.

 

[C0rvus]

Fam, she has those guns, and Mewtwo is a tall fellow. You will not be getting Shadow Ball as often as you think you will.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Mewtwo has tools, but Bayonetta can negate some. Fair strings are negated by BW, Utilt has a hard time beating dABK, as Utilt is relatively slow at some points, and laggy, so you have one shot. Bayonetta cannot be easily gimped by Mewtwo, instead, Bayonetta can Gimp Mewtwo, one of the few characters that can. Time is ridiculous, as Mewtwo isn't the savviest when it comes to options. BC isn't fun.

Mewtwo has SB, but that isn't as useful as in other MU's. With the amount of time Bayo spends hopping around... SB is a good ranged punish for her 40 frames of combo LL and Disable helps as well. I don't think this MU will be even, probably -1/-2. There is just too much in her favor. Also, Mewtwo gets hit by her combos rather easily.

 

[Pazzo.]

"X has tools, but Bayonetta can negate some."

Pretty much this. She's so unorthodox, it makes me facepalm every once in a while.

That doesn't have to be a bad thing of course. Variety in high tier is good.[/QUOTE]

 

[Cap'nChreest]

What are Palutena's notable matchups?

These are my opinions of her matchup spread
My list is a bit more forgiving obviously. I'm not one to really consider any matchup +1 or -1 in any characters favor. Something as negligible as +/-1 won't make a difference in the outcome of a match if both parties know the matchups as best as possible. It comes down to outplaying the opponent of a matchup is that close. So a 55:45 matchup is more of a -2 or +2 something that makes more of a difference between the two characters.

This list on the other hand is one I made talking to other parties along with my own personal experiences. People like TLTC and IceNinja I've spoken to about this list but its still my list though I did consider a few of their opinions on it. 55:45 being -1 for this list.

As you can see she's definitely a reasonable choice against many characters. Only really struggling against characters that can out camp her or are rather difficult to catch. She still makes a reasonably good choice against a lot of the cast. She's at the very least bottom of mid-tier. She has the potential to be at the top of mid tier though. Palutena has done extremely well with IceNinja in Canada beating top players like Holy. And TLTC beating all sorts of people in money matches. He even beat Esam in a best of 5 money match. Though it isn't tournament its still something exceptional. And then there's Prince Ramen who dominates his region and is currently ranked number 1 on his PR. There's Ice in Georgia who was previously ranked top 10 on the PR there though I'm not sure where he is right now.

Palutena isn't a bad character by any means. She has a slow jab and a bad f-tilt. Everything else about her is actually really good. It can be difficult to pick her up and for that reason many people don't think she's very good. But after experiencing all of these matchups for myself with well known and top level players I know Palutena can do extremely well with the potential of being at the top of mid-tier.

Spoiler

Don't kill me

 

[Y2Kay]

Fam, she has those guns, and Mewtwo is a tall fellow. You will not be getting Shadow Ball as often as you think you will.

Charging shadowball isn't as big as an issue as you think. I can cancel the charge with shield, and preserve my charge. The guns are pretty easy to react to in my experience.

I don't think the bayo matchup is that bad actually. Shadow ball and disjoints really keep it workable to me.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mewtwo is dead once he is offstage. Same as most of the cast.

 

[Y2Kay]

How is Mewtwo dead offstage? I think he has enough options to maneuver around d smash and dair.

Or does her Dasboot hit him before teleport snaps to the ledge.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Also adding to his woes are that the characters that are commonly believed to be his worst match ups () are all common tournament characters mostly with comparatively lower skill floors.

I never understood what supposedly makes Fox such a bad matchup for Mega Man.

 

[meleebrawler]

Well, balls don't have to be fully charged to punish dive kicks, or plow through bullet climax.

Mewtwo has tools, but Bayonetta can negate some. Fair strings are negated by BW, Utilt has a hard time beating dABK, as Utilt is relatively slow at some points, and laggy, so you have one shot. Bayonetta cannot be easily gimped by Mewtwo, instead, Bayonetta can Gimp Mewtwo, one of the few characters that can. Time is ridiculous, as Mewtwo isn't the savviest when it comes to options. BC isn't fun.

Mewtwo has SB, but that isn't as useful as in other MU's. With the amount of time Bayo spends hopping around... SB is a good ranged punish for her 40 frames of combo LL and Disable helps as well. I don't think this MU will be even, probably -1/-2. There is just too much in her favor. Also, Mewtwo gets hit by her combos rather easily.

You can't be too quick to judge if Bayo causing a bread-and-butter to not work is truly a negative. Something like Sheik's 50-50 is a big deal since it's her number 1 way of killing, but shadow claw chains are just a way of raising damage quickly, and reading the airdodge can lead to more damage.

Bayo can potentially gimp Mewtwo... but is it consistent? Witch Timing it isn't an option as his recovery doesn't have a hitbox normally, and he has more than enough leeway to dodge any aerial Bayo may try to tag him with, regardless of how deep she can go. Really, no one gimps Mewtwo unless he makes a mistake.

The matchup is basically Mewtwo building up his shadow ball, using it's psychological impact to dissuade Bayonetta from taking a more active, and constantly maneuvering for stage control while dodging dive kicks.
Her super combos mean comebacks are always possible, but Mewtwo has the means to avoid getting caught in them, and is fortunate to have means of killing that don't risk Witch Time (throws and Shadow Ball).

 

[Luigi player]

I feel kinda comfortable with Mewtwo against Bayonetta. Just had such a set here last week with Mewtwo vs Bayo. After losing with Luigi (not as easy as I thought and the edgeguards are scary for him, always got gimped somehow) and DK (those kill combos...) I switched back to Mewtwo in GFs set 2 and I mean it was game 5 but Mewtwo can keep her away nicely with Shadow Balls and can camp pretty well. Her guns aren't too bad (just keep a little distance and if there's no room approaching with dtilt is just so good; Mewtwo can always create space when it wants to) and while recovering you can SideB them back too (I even hit her back once lol) and Mewtwo doesn't have a hitbox with upB which suprisingly is a good thing for once so she can't Witchtime you. Mewtwo is generally one of the characters with the easiest time recovering too. Bayonetta going offstage can be risky for her too because of nair / fair / sideB turnaround doublejump bair to protect you / other stuff.

 

[C0rvus]

For many characters, being offstage against Bayo is an immediate death sentence. I don't see Mewtwo among this group, though. His ability to change his momentum, possessing one of the best air dodges in the business, the best teleport in the game, and quick aerials are all factors that prevent Bayonetta from ever killing him offstage without a read.

 

[meleebrawler]

I feel kinda comfortable with Mewtwo against Bayonetta. Just had such a set here last week with Mewtwo vs Bayo. After losing with Luigi (not as easy as I thought and the edgeguards are scary for him, always got gimped somehow) and DK (those kill combos...) I switched back to Mewtwo in GFs set 2 and I mean it was game 5 but Mewtwo can keep her away nicely with Shadow Balls and can camp pretty well. Her guns aren't too bad (just keep a little distance and if there's no room approaching with dtilt is just so good; Mewtwo can always create space when it wants to) and while recovering you can SideB them back too (I even hit her back once lol) and Mewtwo doesn't have a hitbox with upB which suprisingly is a good thing for once so she can't Witchtime you. Mewtwo is generally one of the characters with the easiest time recovering too. Bayonetta going offstage can be risky for her too because of nair / fair / sideB turnaround doublejump bair to protect you / other stuff.

They're interestingly well-matched offstage, honestly. Mewtwo's recovery is more flexible, but Bayonetta has more hitboxes covering her. Both are at severe risk if caught without their double jump and both can wall jump.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm sure you're all dying to know but Pit doesn't have to especially fear Bayonetta offstage. Arrows obviously, and the lack of a hitbox on Uspecial keeps it from activating Witch Time. Armor on side B protects from Dsmash and apparently due to her weird intangibility Pit won't attack her while Witch Time would activate, or at least not until later where it's not really a feasible thing for her to try and react to the move with.

 

[Pazzo.]

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I imagine that like usual, most heavy characters get literally stomped by Bayonetta offstage.

 

[Greward]

I never understood what supposedly makes Fox such a bad matchup for Mega Man.

Fox is disadvantage but it's doable. He's mainly too safe for megaman to do anything and since megaman is heavy + fast faller he gets comboed super hard. He has trouble killing but his dsmash can hit on the 2 frame window in ledge grab because mega man hurtbox there is awfully bad.
Our pellet and projectile game is overall very weak against Fox, we rely on grab, up air combos (which are gimmicky) and gimps because thankfully his recovery sucks.

I don't believe Fox is top5 worst mega man matchups tho

 

[Wintermelon43]

Speaking of Fox, what are his good matchups aganist the top tiers? and high tiers too? I only ever hear about disadvantage ones, so I wonder what exactatly is good for him.

 

[wm1026]

I'm sure you're all dying to know but Pit doesn't have to especially fear Bayonetta offstage. Arrows obviously, and the lack of a hitbox on Uspecial keeps it from activating Witch Time. Armor on side B protects from Dsmash and apparently due to her weird intangibility Pit won't attack her while Witch Time would activate, or at least not until later where it's not really a feasible thing for her to try and react to the move with.

I feel like Bayo would dair Pit to oblivion. Is recovery really isn't that great and as long as you count his jumps is predictable. And I am confused are you saying his side B will not activate her witch time?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox is disadvantage but it's doable.

[...]

I don't believe Fox is top5 worst mega man matchups tho

That's what I was thinking :3

Speaking of Fox, what are his good matchups aganist the top tiers? and high tiers too? I only ever hear about disadvantage ones, so I wonder what exactatly is good for him.

For one, Fox has a slight winning record against Diddy which is something that's increasingly hard to come by these days. He's even vs most top tiers except Sheik and Rosalina though [I'd tenatively add Cloud and Rosalina here] so I think he's one of the characters that's really placed accurately on the official tier list [somewhere between 6th and 8th].

And of course, he just generally beats/destroys most non-high tier characters.

Edit: If high tiers are included it's worth mentioning that Fox likely beats Pikachu as well [I don't think that character is considered top tier by most people anymore].

 

[ReRaze]

I feel like Bayo would dair Pit to oblivion. Is recovery really isn't that great and as long as you count his jumps is predictable. And I am confused are you saying his side B will not activate her witch time?

When recovering low enough that dair becomes an option against Pit, any smart Pit will keep his jumps to jump away from it, I mean Dair doesn't have the fastest startup and it's pretty obvious when a Bayonetta will go for it. Also I'm pretty sure Pit can dip deeper than the vertical distance Bayonetta's dair covers. Another option (although it's risky below stage level) is to Side B the dair on reaction, take the hit and hit bayonetta instead, possibly stagespiking in Dark Pit's case. Forces bayonetta to think twice about trying to Dair Pit. I need to test if Pit's uair beats Bayonetta's dair, does her dair have a larger hitbox than Link or Cloud? If not Uair can probably beat it when spaced.