Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nobie]

I also saw someone mention that top Luigi players were pushing Luigi's meta beyond down throw kill combos, but heck if I saw it. It was the same situation with Diddy Kong: ZeRo showed just how much you could do beyond hoo hah, but most Diddys, even top-level Diddys, basically used Up Air as a crutch.

I mean, maybe Luigi needs some buffs back (and as much as people claim this is the final patch I don't think that's the case), but there's something to be said about FORCING players to get more creative rather than hoping they will. The first Xanadu after the Luigi nerf patch was so interesting to watch because you could see Boss trying all these clever setups. Yes, I know that situational setups by nature are inferior to guaranteed reliable ones, but I don't think it's that bad that there characters that have to work for their kills at all times.

 

[Locke 06]

I also saw someone mention that top Luigi players were pushing Luigi's meta beyond down throw kill combos, but heck if I saw it. It was the same situation with Diddy Kong: ZeRo showed just how much you could do beyond hoo hah, but most Diddys, even top-level Diddys, basically used Up Air as a crutch.

http://www.compete-complete.com/2016/02/local-maxima.html?m=1

Relevant. Even if certain options are overpowering, there's always more. Patches have forced people to come down from their happy place and keep (pun intended) climbing. The same climb they most likely would have done later in the game's life.

 

[meleebrawler]

I also saw someone mention that top Luigi players were pushing Luigi's meta beyond down throw kill combos, but heck if I saw it. It was the same situation with Diddy Kong: ZeRo showed just how much you could do beyond hoo hah, but most Diddys, even top-level Diddys, basically used Up Air as a crutch.

I mean, maybe Luigi needs some buffs back (and as much as people claim this is the final patch I don't think that's the case), but there's something to be said about FORCING players to get more creative rather than hoping they will. The first Xanadu after the Luigi nerf patch was so interesting to watch because you could see Boss trying all these clever setups. Yes, I know that situational setups by nature are inferior to guaranteed reliable ones, but I don't think it's that bad that there characters that have to work for their kills at all times.

Complacent Gaming Syndrome in a nutshell.

If there's a relatively simple way to win, people WILL flock to it. In Smash 4 it started with Diddy (even though I don't remember running into that many Diddys even during the hoo-hah days), then they turned to Luigi, and now Ness is the go-to guy for simple-but-effective grab setups.

Other complacent picks include Captain Falcon, Link and recently Cloud.

 

[C0rvus]

Tbh I'd put Bowser in that group if he was a bit better. His MUs can get kinda bad, but his solution is always very simple. Did they hit my shield wrong? Whirling Fortress OoS (or Bowser Bomb if it was a super bad shield hit). Or just grab in every punish scenario into big damage. Up throw up air not working? Just wait a few percent and your fthrow and bthrow will kill. Jab >grab is also a very strong mixup, it works like 90% of the time in mid level lol.

Could just be salt, as I've been on both ends of this character of late (playing as and against), but he's really easy. At least he has real weaknesses.

 

[19_]

there's more, and i just stuck to the tippy top. go down a bit lower and there's more that can still place well in large tournaments.

After LOF blue droped sonic for mewtwo, I learned that playing a character that you enjoy AND get your best results is always the most important thing.

 

[Big-Cat]

Tbh I'd put Bowser in that group if he was a bit better. His MUs can get kinda bad, but his solution is always very simple. Did they hit my shield wrong? Whirling Fortress OoS (or Bowser Bomb if it was a super bad shield hit). Or just grab in every punish scenario into big damage. Up throw up air not working? Just wait a few percent and your fthrow and bthrow will kill. Jab >grab is also a very strong mixup, it works like 90% of the time in mid level lol.

Could just be salt, as I've been on both ends of this character of late (playing as and against), but he's really easy. At least he has real weaknesses.

It's the salt talking. Throws are the optimal punishment usually, but not always as you can kill earlier by whiff punishing with drop kick or Bowser Bomb. Bowser is really footsies and punisher oriented.

I'd actually compare him to Rainbow Mika, not Zangief.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Straying away from the competitive vs. casual discussion...

I'm dropping Bowser Jr. https://t.co/1O7v8gc8Xm

— LG Tweek (@TweekSsb) February 28, 2016

Tweek is dropping Bowser Jr. for Cloud.

The Bowser Jr. metagame will be surely affected negatively, since their most important player is now gone.

Who else is repping the character currently? I've never heard of anyone besides Tweek.

Ninjalink has a good Bowser Jr but I've yet to see it in a tournament and Seagull Joe has a good pocket one too. As for Bowser Jr, the latest buffs were definitely needed and are very useful so I don't see the character fading into complete obscurity. The character's never been that popular to begin with so, honestly, this really isn't anything new. This might just give someone else a chance to rise up with the character. I will say that character loyalty is a lot more rewarding in this game than it has been in any other game in the series. With Brawl and Melee, people just kind of rolled their eyes at you if you mained a low tier a year into the game but, thanks to patches, there are only a handful of characters in this game who are almost entirely competitively irrelevant.

 

[juddy96]

Quick overview of results from this weekend

2GGT: EE Saga (196 entrants) 1st ZeRo 2nd Larry Lurr 3rd VoiD
Tampa Never Sleeps 6 (192 entrants) 1st Mew2King 2nd Seibrik 3rd MVD
GUMS 6 (188 entrants) 1st Marss 2nd Raffi-X 3rd Mr. E (he tweeted he went Marth only!)
GGWP IV: The Heroes (97 entrants) 1st S1-14 2nd iStudying 3rd Gregs
Cannes Winter Clash 2 (95 entrants) 1st Mr. R 2nd Glutonny 3rd Elexiao
Polybash 2016 (93 entrants) 1st Holy 2nd DarkAura 3rd JPeds
Winter Brawl X (76 entrants) 1st 6WX 2nd ANTi 3rd C3PO
Final Destination 6 (72 entrants) 1st Saiki ? 2nd Andrew Ryan ? 3rd The Weasel Arizona's #1 SS only 7th
Kings of Queens (65 entrants) 1st John Numbers 2nd MikeKirby 3rd CaptAwesum
Budokai Smashing Vol. 1 (58 entrants) 1st Wonf 2nd Chota 3rd Anguiano
Touch the Throne (??? entrants) 1st cyve 2nd Light 3rd quiKsilver
Breakout 2 (??? entrants) 1st Zinoto 2nd Ally 3rd SETHsational

There were a few tournaments bigger than some of these this weekend but didn't have as good of competition

 

[Trunks159]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQgg6jPtsO8

DK confirmed wins the Shiek matchup kappa.

But seriously, can we discuss this.

 

[C0rvus]

It's the salt talking. Throws are the optimal punishment usually, but not always as you can kill earlier by whiff punishing with drop kick or Bowser Bomb. Bowser is really footsies and punisher oriented.

I'd actually compare him to Rainbow Mika, not Zangief.

I'm really not convinced that's he's a difficult character, but to each their own. Your Mika comparison interests me, though. I can kinda see it. You're saying he's more footsies than a hard grappler, right?

 

[Jaguar360]

Quick overview of results from this weekend

2GGT: EE Saga (196 entrants) 1st ZeRo 2nd Larry Lurr 3rd VoiD
Tampa Never Sleeps 6 (192 entrants) 1st Mew2King 2nd Seibrik 3rd MVD
GUMS 6 (188 entrants) 1st Marss 2nd Raffi-X 3rd Mr. E (he tweeted he went Marth only!)
GGWP IV: The Heroes (97 entrants) 1st S1-14 2nd iStudying 3rd Gregs
Cannes Winter Clash 2 (95 entrants) 1st Mr. R 2nd Glutonny 3rd Elexiao
Polybash 2016 (93 entrants) 1st Holy 2nd DarkAura 3rd JPeds
Winter Brawl X (76 entrants) 1st 6WX 2nd ANTi (I wasn't watching, help me out) 3rd C3PO
Final Destination 6 (72 entrants) 1st Saiki ? 2nd Andrew Ryan ? 3rd The Weasel Arizona's #1 SS only 7th
Kings of Queens (65 entrants) 1st John Numbers 2nd MikeKirby 3rd CaptAwesum
Budokai Smashing Vol. 1 (58 entrants) 1st Wonf 2nd Chota 3rd Anguiano
Touch the Throne (??? entrants) 1st cyve 2nd Light 3rd quiKsilver
Breakout 2 (??? entrants) 1st Zinoto 2nd Ally 3rd SETHsational

There were a few tournaments bigger than some of these this weekend but didn't have as good of competition

I saw ANTi using ZSS and Mario mostly at Winter Brawl.

Do you know where Polybash was held? I only knew DarkAura as a Smashladder player.

 

[juddy96]

I saw ANTi using ZSS and Mario mostly at Winter Brawl.

Do you know where Polybash was held? I only knew DarkAura as a Smashladder player.

Montreal, Quebec.

 

[L9999]

Quick overview of results from this weekend

2GGT: EE Saga (196 entrants) 1st ZeRo 2nd Larry Lurr 3rd VoiD
Tampa Never Sleeps 6 (192 entrants) 1st Mew2King 2nd Seibrik 3rd MVD
GUMS 6 (188 entrants) 1st Marss 2nd Raffi-X 3rd Mr. E (he tweeted he went Marth only!)
GGWP IV: The Heroes (97 entrants) 1st S1-14 2nd iStudying 3rd Gregs
Cannes Winter Clash 2 (95 entrants) 1st Mr. R 2nd Glutonny 3rd Elexiao
Polybash 2016 (93 entrants) 1st Holy 2nd DarkAura 3rd JPeds
Winter Brawl X (76 entrants) 1st 6WX 2nd ANTi 3rd C3PO
Final Destination 6 (72 entrants) 1st Saiki ? 2nd Andrew Ryan ? 3rd The Weasel Arizona's #1 SS only 7th
Kings of Queens (65 entrants) 1st John Numbers 2nd MikeKirby 3rd CaptAwesum
Budokai Smashing Vol. 1 (58 entrants) 1st Wonf 2nd Chota 3rd Anguiano
Touch the Throne (??? entrants) 1st cyve 2nd Light 3rd quiKsilver
Breakout 2 (??? entrants) 1st Zinoto 2nd Ally 3rd SETHsational

There were a few tournaments bigger than some of these this weekend but didn't have as good of competition

Did John Numbers got over his Kirby stuff or the matchup isn't as crappy as he says?

 

[SapphSabre777]

Did John Numbers got over his Kirby stuff or the matchup isn't as crappy as he says?

No, he used Luigi against MikeKirby, though Mike has been closing the gap against Numbers' Luigi. The sets were close, from what I've heard.

 

[PK Gaming]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQgg6jPtsO8

DK confirmed wins the Shiek matchup kappa.

But seriously, can we discuss this.

Larry straight up sent him to the Shadow Realm

 

[Baby_Sneak]

can we back up from the specifics and look at the game as a whole? What type of fighting game is smash4? I've wondered about this and I'm doing some analysis on this.

 

[Shaya]

can we back up from the specifics and look at the game as a whole? What type of fighting game is smash4? I've wondered about this and I'm doing some analysis on this.

"Freedom of Movement" "Two Dimensional" "Platformer" Fighter.

 

[Megamang]

Also, something about the system of damage increasing knockback and knockback being tied to kills, along with edgeguarding. I guess the edgeguarding ties into platformer fighter, but the knockback/damage system is pretty unique. Someone mentioned that other fighting games don't have 'kill moves', damage is damage. Smash has unique combos/strings/finishers/playstyles all due to this system.

I am not saying other fighting games don't have unique combos/playstyles etc, just that smash has a different approach to those things due to its mechanics.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

"Freedom of Movement" "Two Dimensional" "Platformer" Fighter.

I mean like this:

• MvC2- freedom-based fighter with an emphasis on letting you play however you like. Not character vs character heavy, you don't need to study the tool interactions as heavily as other games
• ST- Match-up heavy fighter that requires you to study your tool interactions with other characters pretty heavily. Can take years for a MU to be fully explored.
• VS (Vampire Savior)- player vs player heavy. Momentum is extremely strong here with the white damage and ridiculous pressure every character can put on. Requires some technical prowess, especially with Zabel, B.B Hood and bishamon.

How do we classify smash 4 like the above? Match up heavy? Momentum? Heavy PvP? Honestly I can divide it into two groups: CvC heavy (tool interaction), or PvP heavy (player interactions). Nothing is 100% in either, but there's a certain alignment preference in each game. You can't just know the opponent in street fighter, you've got to know the MU just as well, if not better. Knowing a MU isn't as important in marvel games/VS than street fighter, or games like it. There's times I think smash 4 is Super PvP heavy (ranai putting in work), and times where I think it's super CvC heavy (ness vs rosa). Idk what to think of smash 4.

 

[Kofu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQgg6jPtsO8

DK confirmed wins the Shiek matchup kappa.

But seriously, can we discuss this.

Jus going to comment on this briefly before I turn in. First, Sheik's troubles in the MU seem very similar to Game & Watch's which makes me feel slightly better about my main.

DK's a character with a few very, very good (ppssibly overtuned) moves. UTilt and BAir can both be worked into combos and both kill while having a rather good speed-to-power ratio. UAir is similar, and while his throw combo isn't overwhelming it IS scary. You saw Larry just going after the grab around half the match it felt like (the other half was trying to return to neutral from disadvantage).

He's surprisingly hard to edgeguard unless you can force him low enough without his double jump because of the distance and horizontal protection Spinning Kong give him. He can occasionally have time to throw out a defensive aerial while recovering as well. FAir in particular can be frustrating thanks to its range and if the edgeguarder mistimes their attack, they can kiss their stock goodbye.

He's juggled really badly but his airspeed is excellent which helps somewhat. He's got massive, powerful hitboxes, too, which means that if he can force a trade while being juggled it'll probably be in his favor.

His ground game is just fast enough to put decent pressure on the opponent when he gets a hit in and his juggle game isn't too shabby, either.

Basically he's the most functional heavy thanks to his speed/power ratio and good mobility (Bowser's probably not far behind but his moves don't flow nearly as well as DK's).

 

[ReRaze]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/mvg-league-2016022903811899

Ok, does cloud's up b have set knocback when non sweetspotted or is it just ridiculously strong for no reason like Bayonnetta's?

m2k's face though, lol.

 

[FullMoon]

Quick overview of results from this weekend

2GGT: EE Saga (196 entrants) 1st ZeRo 2nd Larry Lurr 3rd VoiD
Tampa Never Sleeps 6 (192 entrants) 1st Mew2King 2nd Seibrik 3rd MVD
GUMS 6 (188 entrants) 1st Marss 2nd Raffi-X 3rd Mr. E (he tweeted he went Marth only!)
GGWP IV: The Heroes (97 entrants) 1st S1-14 2nd iStudying 3rd Gregs
Cannes Winter Clash 2 (95 entrants) 1st Mr. R 2nd Glutonny 3rd Elexiao
Polybash 2016 (93 entrants) 1st Holy 2nd DarkAura 3rd JPeds
Winter Brawl X (76 entrants) 1st 6WX 2nd ANTi 3rd C3PO
Final Destination 6 (72 entrants) 1st Saiki ? 2nd Andrew Ryan ? 3rd The Weasel Arizona's #1 SS only 7th
Kings of Queens (65 entrants) 1st John Numbers 2nd MikeKirby 3rd CaptAwesum
Budokai Smashing Vol. 1 (58 entrants) 1st Wonf 2nd Chota 3rd Anguiano
Touch the Throne (??? entrants) 1st cyve 2nd Light 3rd quiKsilver
Breakout 2 (??? entrants) 1st Zinoto 2nd Ally 3rd SETHsational

There were a few tournaments bigger than some of these this weekend but didn't have as good of competition

Greninja's results are going pretty strong still I see.

 

[Seven_VII]

Quick overview of results from this weekend

2GGT: EE Saga (196 entrants) 1st ZeRo 2nd Larry Lurr 3rd VoiD
Tampa Never Sleeps 6 (192 entrants) 1st Mew2King 2nd Seibrik 3rd MVD
GUMS 6 (188 entrants) 1st Marss 2nd Raffi-X 3rd Mr. E (he tweeted he went Marth only!)
GGWP IV: The Heroes (97 entrants) 1st S1-14 2nd iStudying 3rd Gregs
Cannes Winter Clash 2 (95 entrants) 1st Mr. R 2nd Glutonny 3rd Elexiao
Polybash 2016 (93 entrants) 1st Holy 2nd DarkAura 3rd JPeds
Winter Brawl X (76 entrants) 1st 6WX 2nd ANTi 3rd C3PO
Final Destination 6 (72 entrants) 1st Saiki ? 2nd Andrew Ryan ? 3rd The Weasel Arizona's #1 SS only 7th
Kings of Queens (65 entrants) 1st John Numbers 2nd MikeKirby 3rd CaptAwesum
Budokai Smashing Vol. 1 (58 entrants) 1st Wonf 2nd Chota 3rd Anguiano
Touch the Throne (??? entrants) 1st cyve 2nd Light 3rd quiKsilver
Breakout 2 (??? entrants) 1st Zinoto 2nd Ally 3rd SETHsational

There were a few tournaments bigger than some of these this weekend but didn't have as good of competition

I believe Andrew Ryan also used bayonetta in FD6

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm really not convinced that's he's a difficult character, but to each their own. Your Mika comparison interests me, though. I can kinda see it. You're saying he's more footsies than a hard grappler, right?

In terms of being effective with him, yes. Execution wise, he's relatively simple, but it's knowing how to apply every one of his tools is where things get difficult.

 

[Ghostbone]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/mvg-league-2016022903811899

Ok, does cloud's up b have set knocback when non sweetspotted or is it just ridiculously strong for no reason like Bayonnetta's?

m2k's face though, lol.

High base knockback + rage + seibrik was probably holding right (thinking he'd go to the left)

 

[thehard]

http://youtu.be/c1ULrTKw2NQ

Did we at all talk about Pug beating Marss at their weekly?

 

[juddy96]

http://youtu.be/c1ULrTKw2NQ

Did we at all talk about Pug beating Marss at their weekly?

Pug plays him so often and he has taken a few sets off him in tournament before. Kind of how Hbox loses to Plup/Colbol at weeklies in Melee from time to time.

 

[Diddy Kong]

@Cereal Bawks
So using up-tilt repetitively is skilled?

He invalidated so many characters with stupid easy combos. He was real easy to pick up, and his combos where literally almost automatic.

It's not so much that he was a major treat on his own, even if he backed real nice results, it was just that he was easily the most effective secondary character for anyone. Plus, matches against him where slow paced, and rather boring...

 

[Megamang]

Not only do DK's tools flow well together, they are actually pretty insane in themselves. His giant intangible limbs combined with their frame data makes many of his tilts, especially utilt and dtilt, some of the best in their class. The way Larry used the utilt was insane, i'd never seen that, but I do have experience with trying to contest it... if the DK plays his cards right, you aren't gonna beat it. Best case you get a trade. I can see why this is super valuable against shiek.

During the ESAM vs Larry Lurr grude match thing where Larry pulled out a bunch of characters, he came out the gate Dtilting and not much else, and the commentators were like "Is he trolling?"... No, that move is just an insanely good poke that can confirm into a lot of damage if you trip. Again with intangible limbs, starting frame 1! And the FAF is 23? That is pretty insane. And he tops these off with ftilt, a pretty solid poke that shines in his moveset just because it has the longest range.

We have a set of tilts that would be insane on any non-bigbody. We don't see the craziness that is the intangible limbs because if you do manage to pass that, you won't have much trouble hitting DK's giant hurtbox. I don't think anyone without a sword can challenge DK's tilts.

His downside is how hard he gets beat up when you do get in, but shiek does that to everyone so... it isn't so bad. Of course, those games might have looked different if Void hadn't gone off the ledge trying to style and instead just abused DK's horrific ledge getup options. Anyone who has trouble with this MU should study how they can reactively push DK back off the ledge, and they will see their DK matches go much better.

So.. does shiek have any kill confirms on DK? It seems like he could survive the uair whenever it was true out of dthrow, and I'd imagine nair-bouncing fish stops working before it kills except right at the ledge. (Of course, hitting a nair is probably easiest at the ledge so this isn't great, but if you know to avoid just the nair your odds might improve).

Recently my optimism in Megaman has gone up in the kill confirm centric meta; I used to be sad that his kill confirms aren't as quick or usable in the nuetral as the top tiers. Recently though, Ive noticed that while I get the kill confirms done to me, I can survive them longer than most characters. Its a nice feeling not dying to grabs super early, sorry kirbys =[


Also, if you die to Ryu uptilts you are probably super lazy, they are some of the easiest moves to SDI in this game. You honestly shouldn't get hit by more than 2 or 3 utilts, and never 3utilts -> sweetspotted TRSK. This of course doesn't include the heavies who are screwed by it.


EDIT: DK's jab combo does 10 damage? Damn, its really a testament to his amazing tilts that we don't see more of that jab. On paper, the heavies really have ridiculous moves. This is great, it really made no sense why their moves were so bad in previous iterations.

 

[bc1910]

Quick overview of results from this weekend

2GGT: EE Saga (196 entrants) 1st ZeRo 2nd Larry Lurr 3rd VoiD
Tampa Never Sleeps 6 (192 entrants) 1st Mew2King 2nd Seibrik 3rd MVD
GUMS 6 (188 entrants) 1st Marss 2nd Raffi-X 3rd Mr. E (he tweeted he went Marth only!)
GGWP IV: The Heroes (97 entrants) 1st S1-14 2nd iStudying 3rd Gregs
Cannes Winter Clash 2 (95 entrants) 1st Mr. R 2nd Glutonny 3rd Elexiao
Polybash 2016 (93 entrants) 1st Holy 2nd DarkAura 3rd JPeds
Winter Brawl X (76 entrants) 1st 6WX 2nd ANTi 3rd C3PO
Final Destination 6 (72 entrants) 1st Saiki ? 2nd Andrew Ryan ? 3rd The Weasel Arizona's #1 SS only 7th
Kings of Queens (65 entrants) 1st John Numbers 2nd MikeKirby 3rd CaptAwesum
Budokai Smashing Vol. 1 (58 entrants) 1st Wonf 2nd Chota 3rd Anguiano
Touch the Throne (??? entrants) 1st cyve 2nd Light 3rd quiKsilver
Breakout 2 (??? entrants) 1st Zinoto 2nd Ally 3rd SETHsational

There were a few tournaments bigger than some of these this weekend but didn't have as good of competition

So out of 37 known characters across these podium finishes, we have the following appearances:

x6
x5
x3 (!!!)
x2
x1

Notes:

• This is by no means a perfect ranking because all these tournaments weren't equal in size/player quality, but it gives us a basic results breakdown.
• The standout result is Greninja getting more appearances than any other character besides Sheik and Diddy, including a bunch of top tiers. Also notable is iStudy beating Gregs' Sheik. This character is riding a wave of momentum and is emerging as a serious threat.
• Strong showings from the x2 group with no real surprises, though ROB appearing twice is pretty neat.
• An appearance from Pac-Man might suggest the character still has some legs, though he was used as a secondary to Greninja.
• Solo Mac and Kirby getting an appearance is neat but it's notable that these were both at the smallest tournaments.
• EDIT: Miscounted Diddy's placings. He actually had one more than Sheik. Further proof of how good he still is.
• 12 of the emerging top 14 (BR's top 13 + Bayo) are present here with 7 appearing more than once, proving the power of this group. The MIA top tiers are and, surprise surprise,
• Nothing from and only placed as a secondary in the second smallest tournament. These are all characters who I noted as trending down in results. In tier list terms, I think they will settle in the top ~25 but not the top 20.
• Curious absence of as well, though they have never been hugely popular. Also nothing from or

 

[Diddy Kong]

Remember when Custom was considered a "potential Sheik counter"?

This is what is happening with - it just takes a big, powerful, but fast enough character to catch up with Sheik, to beat Sheik. Rage helps a whole lot, which is also why I think is a good contender for this, even tho he's feather-weight (he still functions as a heavy character).

I really think I'll place all of my focus on and drop all other characters, because damn... Did the Top Players of my secondaries surprise me last couple of months!

Also, am excited to see grow in popularity as well

 

[Megamang]

A big part of beating shiek is not dying to her. Of course, rage is helpful, but I think eventually we will see that she struggles mostly with characters that don't get kill confirmed as easily. I mean, we saw void hitting non-killing uairs at 170%, and ftilt -> uair missing consistently in the games he lost.

This is the reason I never thought Kirby was a good Sheik counter, there is a range where dthrow uair is guaranteed to kill him, which is really really rough because he isn't gonna dodge that grab forever. If Shieks were really having trouble with Kirby, I think they would take a more MK esque approach and learn when they can get an easy kill. MK is one thing where his neutral is not that amazing and he has to hit a Dash Attack, but shiek? What, are you gonna dodge her grab indefinitely? Probably not without playing so strangely you die anyways. And if she needs a few more percent, she can simply needle you instead of having to approach.


All this is to ask: How does mewtwo fare against the kill setups? Can he be kill confirmed by d-throw uair? I can see him doing decently against all the other setups due to the way he plays his neutral, and he has the proper kill power to do decently in the MU, but if a grab kills him its all for naught.

 

[san.]

So out of 37 known characters across these podium finishes, we have the following appearances:

• Curious absence of as well, though they have never been hugely popular. Also nothing from or

Day getting 4th with at Tampa Never Sleeps isn't notable? He beat Manny and DJ Jack at the very least, at least as much as 1st place finishes in some smaller tournaments. I think it's a little weird to be ignoring top 8 at these very large tournaments.

Rango won Bordersmash with , not extremely large at 58, but quite a few PR'd players from Georgia and most from South Carolina attended.
http://challonge.com/bordersmash1

 

[T4ylor]

san. He said podium finishes. That's only the top 3.

 

[san.]

san. He said podium finishes. That's only the top 3.

Of course, I was confused why people would draw conclusions from that, then I realized that the person analyzing the results was a different person. "Nothing from Lucario" with Day's 4th compelled me to post, lol.

 

[bc1910]

Day getting 4th with at Tampa Never Sleeps isn't notable? He beat Manny and DJ Jack at the very least, at least as much as 1st place finishes in some smaller tournaments. I think it's a little weird to be ignoring top 8 at these very large tournaments.

Rango won Bordersmash with , not extremely large at 58, but quite a few PR'd players from Georgia and most from South Carolina attended.
http://challonge.com/bordersmash1

It was a podium finish analysis of the tournaments listed. I wasn't looking at top 8s or other tournaments. I'm aware it's not a fully comprehensive analysis, just a sample selection. Not sure why this post is getting so many likes when you're essentially just calling me out for... using a particular sample?

 

[Emblem Lord]

So then, go ahead and play a top tier character you absoluty despise playing as, and use them instead of your favorite video game character of all time? idk if Tweek is like that at all, but I've heard of other people doing that and I woudn't be surprised if Tweek did it too. If you can't do good with your character.... git gud. Picking up a top tier secondary is one thing, that's ok. But dropping your favorite character because he's an underrated mid tier? ugh. What's the point of playing at all then if you refuse to try to enjoy it? Get good and do just as good.

Then again, only puff mains and a few other low tier or mid tier mains (Only a few though) understand this kind of thing, so people will probably keep being like this unless a low tier hero wins the next EVO or something.

The words of one who lacks conviction. A low tier isn't winning EVO. A low tier by their very design have a ceiling that makes this impossible.

If you have the potential to become the ultimate swordmaster and are given the choice between an ordinary broadsword or Excalibur, isn't the choice obvious?

 

[JediLink]

So then, go ahead and play a top tier character you absoluty despise playing as, and use them instead of your favorite video game character of all time?

What makes you think Tweek despises Cloud? Cloud is cool as hell.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Since the patch, Marth's results are quickly getting respectable and they're only going to get better as time goes on.

He's Greninja all over again. People write him off because he started off poorly but he appears to have unexplored viability due to his high learning curve and low margin for error. With Pugwest and Mr. E (and others?) doing well it's only a matter of time before more people pick him up with how popular he's been along the history of smash.

Which is cool, although I can't help being kind of upset that Roy is just completely inferior again. It seems like Roy's relatively small buffs compared to the rest of FE have really done nothing to address his issues or compensate for them enough to give him a purpose like Marth and Ike has received.

Anyone who knows Roy better than I do please correct me if I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong, honestly.

 

[L9999]

Since the patch, Marth's results are quickly getting respectable and they're only going to get better as time goes on.

He's Greninja all over again. People write him off because he started off poorly but he appears to have unexplored viability due to his high learning curve and low margin for error. With Pugwest and Mr. E (and others?) doing well it's only a matter of time before more people pick him up with how popular he's been along the history of smash.

Which is cool, although I can't help being kind of upset that Roy is just completely inferior again. It seems like Roy's relatively small buffs compared to the rest of FE have really done nothing to address his issues or compensate for them enough to give him a purpose like Marth and Ike has received.

Anyone who knows Roy better than I do please correct me if I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong, honestly.

At least Roy has SOME hope. Now, I dare you to mention me a top level non-Wi-Fi warrior Lucina player. NEO doesn't count, he dropped her. Being played for disrespect or fun doesn't count either.