Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Fatmanonice]

You're technically correct; however, it was the 1.0.4 patch of the 3DS version that really helped make him viable, as without it he probably would not have had his ladder combo. (They buffed Up-Air's hitbox that patch.) So whether Meta Knight was always a great character at launch depends if you're starting from Wii U release or 3DS release, as Vectoring's removal wasn't the only major thing that was hampering Meta Knight in the 3DS days.

And dair too. Later, jab, ftilt, nair, and bair got considerable buffs too.

 

[C0rvus]

I remember playing Meta Knight during the 3ds days. My friends and I didn't know about vectoring and I thought, "How do people have such a low opinion of Meta Knight? He can combo people to the ceiling!" Of course, it wasn't true then but here we are. I shudder at the thought of playing that version of the game. If they hadn't changed vectoring, buffed shield stun, nerfed Diddy, etc. I can honestly say I wouldn't still be playing this game. I don't see those games holding my interest.

 

[Vipermoon]

And dair too. Later, jab, ftilt, nair, and bair got considerable buffs too.

And he deserved those. Those move were hilariously bad in the beginning. Like for each move many majors issues and nothing good to speak of. Some combination of extremely low damage, horrid end or land lag, extremely small range, and the most misleading animations I've ever seen.

Sakurai: "Take MK and nerf his entire moveset to the ground. Then keep nerfing him till you get to the other side of the Earth. Then... make his Fsmash WAY TOO STRONG. Done"

Employee: "Yes... sir?"

 

[AnEventHorizon]

2 extra percent on all of his attacks, more damage in Monado speed and 2 frames less landing lag on all aerials are irrelevant buffs? Yeah okay.

The buffs have been great, but lets not exaggerate - he didn't get 2% on all his attacks. He got 1.5% on tilts, dash attack, and aerials and 1% on smashes (only .5% on launching hits), throws (only .5% on the launching hits), air slash, and jab. If you're trying to say the difference between 2% and 1.5% is negligible, then you're kind of saying many of the 1.1.3 buffs didn't matter at all.

One interesting thing I noticed after I found people noting Bayonetta's smashes as extremely punishable - her smashes have the similar total frames to Shulk (68 for Shulk vs 68/65/69 for Bayonetta. Not counting Shulk's dsmash because Shulk's dsmash shouldnt exist)

 

[FlynnCL]

Shulk was a mess during the release of Smash 4. It's funny that there was a time where vanilla Shulk's forward air had 21 frames of landing lag and was out damaged by Sheik's forward air (6.5% vs 6.8%).

It was shocking how low his damage output was despite such bad data, even when taking his Arts into account. The buffs were more than necessary for him to even begin to function. He was arguably the most undertuned fighter in the entire game.

 

[Nobie]

The Ganondorf vs. Bayonetta matchup would be okaaayish if not for Bullet Arts Climax. In neutral they have similar frame data and Bayonetta can and should be afraid to trade in those scenarios.

Then Bullet Arts Climax goes "phbphbpbhpbhb" and suddenly giant Ganondorf can't do anything about it except shield and roll away.

 

[Rikkhan]

Now that reminds me... If I remember correctly, someone - was it DunnoBro? - said there were two control schemes for Mario players: one that uses C-stick to tilts to make aerial combos easier and one that uses Smash letting Mario get reverse Up Smashes. You can't have both apparently. Maybe it was for Diddy... I don't remember completely, but it probably has a factor in this.

Edit: Yeah, thinking this is what Mario does considering Jtails's tutorial on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1mkvkYtwmk.

I'm late to this topic but still want to give my 2 cents, I'm kinda surprised people didn't fully know about the reverse JC Usmash, it's one of mario's bread and butter moves. About mario schemes standard + C-tilt and standard + Csmash are the most common setups, but there are also other setups I personally like the Remzi double stick setup with tap jump since it allows frame perfect SH aerials which are important for Dthrow combos, you can still do reverse JC Usmashes it just slighty harder.

for people who don't know:

with tap jump

without tap jump

 

[UberMadman]

So Bayonetta has one of the biggest divides in opinions out of all the DLC characters at release. Is she OP? Does she suck? Well, I have to say, no one quite sums it up like GimR does right here:

If this won't finally get people to realize where she stands, nothing will.

 

[wedl!!]

Spoiler: if you haven't seen it yet

ok that was pretty good LOL

gimr clickbait game on point

 

[Fatmanonice]

And he deserved those. Those move were hilariously bad in the beginning. Like for each move many majors issues and nothing good to speak of. Some combination of extremely low damage, horrid end or land lag, extremely small range, and the most misleading animations I've ever seen.

Sakurai: "Take MK and nerf his entire moveset to the ground. Then keep nerfing him till you get to the other side of the Earth. Then... make his Fsmash WAY TOO STRONG. Done"

Employee: "Yes... sir?"

Exactly. He was basically a butter knife wielding blueberry when the game first came out and then the staff was like "maybe we went a little too far with the nerfs" and gave him back just the right amount of things to make him a threat again.

 

[deepseadiva]

If this won't finally get people to realize where she stands, nothing will.

Consecutive tournament wins usually do the trick.

 

[ARISTOS]

Consecutive tournament wins usually do the trick.

Give it a month, after people have dropped games against and have all recovery attempts stuffed by Witch Time.

Then they'll know.

 

[|RK|]

Is it possible to Witch Time a Bouncing Fish on reaction?

 

[deepseadiva]

I imagine with practice.

And near the ledge....... that would be devilish.

 

[|RK|]

Question: Should we really call Bayonetta's F-Throw a kill throw? It feels like the Fire Emblem Uthrow, where it's really there to make sure the stock doesn't run past a certain (pretty high) percentage. Either way, it doesn't seem like enough to "beat shields."

EDIT: Okay, it is literally a kill throw. But hopefully you all can get my meaning.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Question: Should we really call Bayonetta's F-Throw a kill throw? It feels like the Fire Emblem Uthrow, where it's really there to make sure the stock doesn't run past a certain (pretty high) percentage. Either way, it doesn't seem like enough to "beat shields."

If it kills at some point before like, 200%....

I consider it a kill throw, personally.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Bayo fthrow scales well with rage.

Here's some Corrin data.

After KOing a Bayo at 60% with Corrin usmash I went and checked the KB stats. The tipper is the same as Sheik's tipper usmash. Cool I guess.

— Kurogane Hammer (@KuroganeHammer) February 9, 2016

 

[Sonicninja115]

If it kills at some point before like, 200%....

I consider it a kill throw, personally.

I usually kill at about 130% with it. Of course, there is player misDI and rage to factor in. I am usually at about 100-120% when I use it to confirm the kill.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Also more data but it seems like Sakurai and the developers remembered a way to remove the 9% rule when it comes to moves clashing and beating out others. So far moves to have this property are only:

Villager Timber
Bayo Smashes
Corrin Fsmash
Corrin Side B
Corrin Neutral B projectile

 

[LancerStaff]

Also more data but it seems like Sakurai and the developers remembered a way to remove the 9% rule when it comes to moves clashing and beating out others. So far moves to have this property are only:

Villager cut down Timber
Bayo Smashes
Corrin Fsmash
Corrin Side B
Corrin Neutral B projectile

Lavani said it some type of priority usually used on items or something like that... Considering I've had the repeating hits on Pit's Nair block all of them (besides Timber, TIL) and that's .7%, seems safe to say there's no lower limit. Or at least a relevant one at any rate.

Although, Corrin's Nspecial has a unique clash animation correct? I think hadokens do too, meaning they probably have the same priority, or it's just a mechanical thing like Pit's Dspecial not breaking like other reflectors. You'd just almost never notice since they do 7.5 max without items or equipment.

 

[Lavani]

Item priority only means you can clank it with aerials, what he's talking about with ignoring the 9% rule is something entirely different.

 

[Yikarur]

I realized it yesterday when I was trying to fsmash Ike out of his aether.
My sadness was real

KuroganeHammer Is it a special flag? Because I know sometimes moves just don't hit further even though their animation continues due to being stronger. One example would be Mii Brawlers fsmash vs. Yoshis Jab. Mii Brawlers fsmash wins but Yoshi will not get hit.

 

[Radical Larry]

Exactly. He was basically a butter knife wielding blueberry when the game first came out and then the staff was like "maybe we went a little too far with the nerfs" and gave him back just the right amount of things to make him a threat again.

And as a result, he's actually HIGHER than when he was in the Brawl tier list. He may have been first out of 38 in the Brawl tier list, but in this game, he's even higher due to the higher character count; he might be 10th on this list, but look at all the characters below him and tell me that it isn't more than the Brawl roster's amount. 46 characters are below him, compared to 37 who were below him last game.

So essentially, he's had a higher tier placement in this game due to the developers giving him a little too much right things. I'm just waiting for the day that MK's U-Air does more horizontal knockback to remove all chances of ladder combos; he has other things that will help him, I'm sure. And it won't take him away from his position either.

(And yet I'll have my say on Cloud later; the TL;DR version is that he deserves to be around the 20th place mark, not 12th.)

 

[Baby_Sneak]

And as a result, he's actually HIGHER than when he was in the Brawl tier list. He may have been first out of 38 in the Brawl tier list, but in this game, he's even higher due to the higher character count; he might be 10th on this list, but look at all the characters below him and tell me that it isn't more than the Brawl roster's amount. 46 characters are below him, compared to 37 who were below him last game.

So essentially, he's had a higher tier placement in this game due to the developers giving him a little too much right things. I'm just waiting for the day that MK's U-Air does more horizontal knockback to remove all chances of ladder combos; he has other things that will help him, I'm sure. And it won't take him away from his position either.

(And yet I'll have my say on Cloud later; the TL;DR version is that he deserves to be around the 20th place mark, not 12th.)

It's not about if the characters can survive the change, it's about if the change is needed. I see no reason for it.

 

[Radical Larry]

It's not about if the characters can survive the change, it's about if the change is needed. I see no reason for it.

Care to explain the last sentence? No reason for what exactly?
The ladder combo? Buffs? Nerfs from Brawl to this game?

 

[|RK|]

If it kills at some point before like, 200%....

I consider it a kill throw, personally.

I suppose, but it feels like... calling Kirby's bthrow a kill throw.

 

[bc1910]

I think I've been over this before but I'd call a kill throw anything that kills at ~170% or below.

200% is really pushing it and to be honest I think 170% is a bit high; I'd like to say anything that kills at 150% or below is a kill throw, but take rage out of the equation and that would leave us with about 3 kill throws. Throws in general are so weak at killing in this game that the percent threshold for a kill throw has been artificially increased.

 

[IsmaR]

And as a result, he's actually HIGHER than when he was in the Brawl tier list. He may have been first out of 38 in the Brawl tier list, but in this game, he's even higher due to the higher character count; he might be 10th on this list, but look at all the characters below him and tell me that it isn't more than the Brawl roster's amount. 46 characters are below him, compared to 37 who were below him last game.

So essentially, he's had a higher tier placement in this game due to the developers giving him a little too much right things.

That's... Not the way it works. At all.

Being top 10 in a game with nearly 20 more characters would be more akin to being top 5-6 in Brawl. Having more characters =/= characters are "mathematically" better off in terms of placement.

Plus you're completely ignoring the difference in going from Brawl MK to any other given characters, even 2nd best in that game. It is not even close to the same as going from the best character in this game to the top 15 at least.

 

[warionumbah2]

And it won't take him away from his position either.

You really know nothing of this character. Please stop it.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Just wanted to drop that Bayos uSpecial > uSpecial is true no matter the DI up until mid percent and if you ever get hit by dABK on a platform, you should be dead instantly.
Just finished testing all DI options. Only possibility is SDI now, but I can't check that.

 

[bc1910]

That's... Not the way it works. At all.

Being top 10 in a game with nearly 20 more characters would be more akin to being top 5-6 in Brawl. Having more characters =/= characters are "mathematically" better off in terms of placement.

Plus you're completely ignoring the difference in going from Brawl MK to any other given characters, even 2nd best in that game. It is not even close to the same as going from the best character in this game to the top 15 at least.

I nearly said this, but I decided not to because it's just painstakingly obvious and it wasn't worth taking the original post seriously.

I honestly think it's better to just ignore him because responses, good or bad, are all he wants.

 

[|RK|]

I think I've been over this before but I'd call a kill throw anything that kills at ~170% or below.

200% is really pushing it and to be honest I think 170% is a bit high; I'd like to say anything that kills at 150% or below is a kill throw, but take rage out of the equation and that would leave us with about 3 kill throws. Throws in general are so weak at killing in this game that the percent threshold for a kill throw has been artificially increased.

Sure, but shouldn't the definition of a kill throw be based on average stock length? For Bayonetta, a character that can end stocks around (or before) 70% consistently, I wouldn't call her F-Throw a kill throw. Especially since the disclaimer about it's kill potential is "at the very edge."

Kirby weight boost or no, I've survived it ~150%.

 

[UberMadman]

I've seen Bayo kill at 130 at the ledge with rage using her F-Throw. It's a kill throw, it's just a weak one, something to fall back on if need be.

 

[Radical Larry]

I've seen Bayo kill at 130 at the ledge with rage using her F-Throw. It's a kill throw, it's just a weak one, something to fall back on if need be.

Why fall back on it when you can just lead it up into D-Smash at around 30% with a good read? It may be a kill throw, but it's best if Bayo uses F-Throw > D-Smash instead.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Care to explain the last sentence? No reason for what exactly?
The ladder combo? Buffs? Nerfs from Brawl to this game?

You like to propose changes to non-problematic characters because of a possible overtune property (also neglecting the fact that every character has something overturned) and then say they can live without it without considering if said change is necessary or nah.

TLDR: you want stuff changed just because, and your reasoning behind it is that "they won't be affected too much."

 

[Amadeus9]

Why fall back on it when you can just lead it up into D-Smash at around 30% with a good read? It may be a kill throw, but it's best if Bayo uses F-Throw > D-Smash instead.

I don't understand what you're saying at all. What does this have to do with fthrow's kill power at high percent?

 

[bc1910]

Sure, but shouldn't the definition of a kill throw be based on average stock length? For Bayonetta, a character that can end stocks around (or before) 70% consistently, I wouldn't call her F-Throw a kill throw. Especially since the disclaimer about it's kill potential is "at the very edge."

Kirby weight boost or no, I've survived it ~150%.

No, I think a kill throw should be defined by base percents that apply to the whole roster. That's really the only way the definition makes sense to me. I don't think it makes sense to separate kill throws based on average stock length.

Ness' Bthrow is considered the best kill throw in the game and it'll usually kill around 120% but average stock length against, say, ZSS, is pretty short because she can confirm kills as early as 30%. Going by average stock length, we'd consider Ness' Bthrow a bad kill throw or not a kill throw at all if it was on ZSS. That doesn't make sense and I think it's a lot less messy to define a kill throw as a throw that kills around or before a certain percent.

On the subject of Bayonetta's Fthrow I don't believe it qualifies as a "kill throw" as with good DI it struggles to kill at the ledge even at 150% and, since you need to be near the ledge, it's massively dependent on positioning. It's a reasonable fallback kill option but nothing more.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Considering how living to 200% isn't that unusual in this game, I guess those could be considered kill throws. I dunno. My mentality is that this should really only count for throws that can reasonably kill at 150 or below from center stage but then you'd have like 5 throws if you took rage out of the picture. So, that said (of those I can actually remember) these people have "kill throws" (kill by 200% with or without rage):

fthrow-
bthrow-
uthrow-
dthrow-

 

[Nu~]

Considering how living to 200% isn't that unusual in this game, I guess those could be considered kill throws. I dunno. My mentality is that this should really only could for throws that can reasonably kill at 150 or below from center stage but then you'd have like 5 throws if you took rage out of the picture. So, that said (of those I can actually remember) these people have "kill throws" (kill by 200% with or without rage):

fthrow-
bthrow-
uthrow-
dthrow-

Add to the Uthrow list and Pacman to the back throw list. Corrin's uthrow kills earlier than his down throw due to its angle.

 

[deepseadiva]

Throws that kill below 200% are more like stock caps.

"Kill throws" which come from "kill moves", should kill below 150%. And it's not like we call moves that KO at 180% kill moves...