Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[R3D3MON]

@G. Stache
Yeah this definitely true. This is also the reason that I feel like tether grab characters are great on Luigi since they can tether grab a Luigi after perfect shield since Luigi doesn't have high enough falling speed to reach the ground and move away safely after short hop fair or dair.
I personally do a lot of SH bairs and fireballs to somewhat wall out opponents. I don't really use too much dair, but SH fair is excellent at shield pressure. Also I like to throw out f-tilts every once in a while, along with d-smash. F-smash I only reserve as a punish tool after reading a ledge getup. Jab is overall a great move so I use it all the time many different situations.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

What did Abadango do for Wario?

Get good results. So what if he didn't push the meta hard and lab Wario if he could consistently place high with him and get Wario's best results?

 

[Trunks159]

Guys, looks like Peach is the Ice Climbers of old:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkYi7i1bjoE

I simply cant believe this stuff.

 

[Nemesis561]

Here in S Florida the meta is relatively strong. I believe will always stay around high mid or so, hes got way too many tools to drop any lower, including the best command grab and A + edgeguarding. And of Course the waft as a threat always looming over the battle. He doesn't win a ton of matchups but goes even or so with many characters.

In my opinion, I think what's really hurting him right now is the emergence ofand , and the buffs of the other fire emblem swordsman (). The swordsman are back in style and has a very difficult time against those ridiculous disjoints. The only answer is to play reallllllyyyy lame.

 

[FullMoon]

Guys, looks like Peach is the Ice Climbers of old:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkYi7i1bjoE

I simply cant believe this stuff.

That only works on certain characters, it's not really comparable to the Ice Climbers.

 

[Trunks159]

That only works on certain characters, it's not really comparable to the Ice Climbers.

Edit: Dedede of old.

 

[L9999]

Guys, looks like Peach is the Ice Climbers of old:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkYi7i1bjoE

I simply cant believe this stuff.

That's old news. Also, Umeki is to Peach as 9B is to Ice Climbers. At some point he was going to do it consistently and exploit it. And the skill to pull this off is out the charts.

 

[Pancracio17]

if peach can kill confirm a shiek of a grab at 0% why isnt she more popular? is it because of this?

And the skill to pull this off is out the charts.

 

[Mario766]

Guys, looks like Peach is the Ice Climbers of old:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkYi7i1bjoE

I simply cant believe this stuff.

Get 0-90 off a grab.


Still lose the set.

That's why Peach isn't as popular, even WITH footstool combos top levels can still easily make the comebacks and Peach isn't hard to deal with off-stage.

Another issue with Peach's footstool combos. How much does the hit do for the up-air? 4 percent? 6? Regardless, it takes an obscene amount of precise inputs for the combo to give actual damage. Compare this to a heavy hitter who can not only do footstool combos but do them with stronger moves and they last till 50-70, characters like Falcon and Ike can do this, Falcon off first hit N-Air and with falling up-air, and Ike gets combos off N-Air, D-Tilt and D-Throw to varying success. Ike on Sheik can deal a 60+ damage combo off...3-4 footstools. How many does Peach need? More like 20+. Yeah, that's an issue and that's why the combos aren't reliable.

Oh, here's another issue. Sheik at 70 vs Ike? Kill percent to a kill combo. Peach? Yeah not so much.

 

[Tri Knight]

I can see moving up to A pretty soon. Especially if we can end up seeing players like M2K take Smash more seriously. He's got a lot going on for him.
as well; he'll probably end up being pushed into C-tier (though personally I think he's even B-tier material).
will surely move up after that exceptional performance at Beast.
I guess will have to move up too but I doubt it'll be anywhere past bottom of Mid (sorry Link).
I'm actually surprised was put as low as is.

 

[Mario766]

Japan has a say in the tier list, so Ike gets instantly blasted, not to mention a lot of top level players still underrate Ike due to reasons that are beyond me. Ryuga/Ryo having suboptimal performances at G3 doesn't help his case either, but we'll see. Ike's are gathering to go to GOML at this point so we'll see.

 

[Radical Larry]

Guys, looks like Peach is the Ice Climbers of old:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkYi7i1bjoE

I simply cant believe this stuff.

It was also enough to glitch out the game sound for a while. But hell, that might be good if it works on opponents who fall fast.

I can see moving up to A pretty soon. Especially if we can end up seeing players like M2K take Smash more seriously. He's got a lot going on for him.
as well; he'll probably end up being pushed into C-tier (though personally I think he's even B-tier material).
will surely move up after that exceptional performance at Beast.
I guess will have to move up too but I doubt it'll be anywhere past bottom of Mid (sorry Link).
I'm actually surprised was put as low as is.

Don't be surprised if Link rises to the middle of middle tier, since he also has had a surprise performance at Beast, maybe not as significant as Greninja, but still surprising.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Get good results. So what if he didn't push the meta hard and lab Wario if he could consistently place high with him and get Wario's best results?

He used him as a pocket for Pac's bad MUs, not particularly noteworthy. Wario's best results has always come from Reflex. (And Waymas is one to look out for considering he's ranked 4th in the Mexico PR)

 

[Megamang]

Aren't Pac's bad MUs really significant in the meta? Isn't that the problem with everyone below Top tier, is a MU with one of the top tiers?

 

[MistressRemilia]

Of the current tier list:
Rise:
Drop:
Already dropped like bricks but will likely drop anyway: (RIP early Abadango) (I know he is low tier, but he is 1 spot to mid tier and he is overrated).
Potential to rise to mid tier, not enough proof:
Anything goes:


IMO C tier will cease to exist and the best of B go to A and the best of D go to B.

Wii Fit Trainer is already Mid Tier.
Those results are just way too strong, she can't be Low Tier.
It's just that, for whatever reason, people still think she's just some mediocre chara or something, i'm not going to say she's great but when you reached & can still reach Top 32 of a lot of majors so far, you earned your Mid Tier spot.

 

[L9999]

Wii Fit Trainer is already Mid Tier.
Those results are just way too strong, she can't be Low Tier.
It's just that, for whatever reason, people still think she's just some mediocre chara or something, i'm not going to say she's great but when you reached & can still reach Top 32 of a lot of majors so far, you earned your Mid Tier spot.

I know she is, 4BR doesn't.

 

[Nu~]

Aren't Pac's bad MUs really significant in the meta? Isn't that the problem with everyone below Top tier, is a MU with one of the top tiers?

These are the characters that wreck pacman quite hard. 1 is prominent and 2 are on the come up

The bigger problem is that pacman doesn't beat anyone significant besides luigi (who is debatably relevant) and Diddy.

 

[Yikarur]

In what world does Pac-Man beat Diddy. Do you care to elaborate?

 

[Jams.]

Potential to rise to mid tier, not enough proof:

Curious about your justification for this. I feel like the metagame development for G&W has stagnated, and I'm not sure where further advancements to his meta would come from (aside from finicky landing nair confirms), since he seems like a fairly straightforward character. To my understanding, he also has a handful of incredibly poor matchups that limit his viability more than that of other mid tiers. Other characters that were worse than him 2 patches ago (ie. Mewtwo, Fire Emblem, Bowser) also got buffs while he was overlooked, making him worse off in comparison. I guess I just don't see where the potential lies for this character.

 

[Nu~]

In what world does Pac-Man beat Diddy. Do you care to elaborate?

Why, on planet earth of course :]


Pacman deals with diddy's normal gameplan pretty well. Hydrant and trampoline zoning dampen the effectiveness of banana and grabs. Diddy's bad airspeed makes it easier for pac to use trampoline in nuetral (and even if he reacts immediately, monkey flip can't reach far enough to catch his landing) which means more time to charge. Pac loses CQC, but he keeps Diddy out so well that Diddy doesn't get to convert to his amazing advantage too often.

Pac also eats him alive offstage, but nearly everyone can do that.

There are quite a few matches of this at a high level:
http://youtu.be/sBqbT97dvCg
http://youtu.be/1FRmM6XYKgM

Few have happened recently however considering PacMan's disappearance.

 

[Megamang]

A simple yet in depth improvement would be learning ranges for throw-uair kill confirms, and working more towards that (i.e. don't surpass it unless you have to due to rage,to the point of pummeling or jabbing for the handful of % you need), at least for the more prevalent characters in tournament.

Though GaW doesn't have a dashgrab good enough to guarantee the grab, its a nice start.

 

[Tri Knight]

It was also enough to glitch out the game sound for a while. But hell, that might be good if it works on opponents who fall fast.



Don't be surprised if Link rises to the middle of middle tier, since he also has had a surprise performance at Beast, maybe not as significant as Greninja, but still surprising.

Hey, who knows maybe Izaw was just the kind of representation Link needed to prove his worth. Dont get me wrong though, i definitely say it was a fantastic day for Link's future.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Also, Umeki is to Peach as 9B is to Ice Climbers.[

...no.

Like, just no dude. That sentence is completely wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start.

He used him as a pocket for Pac's bad MUs, not particularly noteworthy.

Beating dabuz' Rosalina is noteworthy enough to justify early Abadango as a major contributor towards Wario's metagame. It is as far as I'm aware the most notable win Wario has to date.

 

[BSP]

Iirc Pac man is up on Diddy if we go by tournament sets that have happened. I think I beat MVD 2-0 at MLG in a friendly session, but he has gotten a lot better since then.

Edit: as far as dropping goes, Pac man is in the middle of the pack at worst imo. He's got his issues, but he's also got way too much at his disposal to approach low tier.

Mario is a big hurdle for him imo, and I could see Cloud and Corrin being problems too.

 

[DanGR]

Beating dabuz' Rosalina is noteworthy enough to justify early Abadango as a major contributor towards Wario's metagame. It is as far as I'm aware the most notable win Wario has to date.

While this is true, it's worth pointing out this was at EVO where the fast bike custom was used and contributed significantly towards his win. (bike->footstool led to an SD) That move's ability to zone-break Rosalina is pretty huge as well.

 

[Radical Larry]

Hey, who knows maybe Izaw was just the kind of representation Link needed to prove his worth. Dont get me wrong though, i definitely say it was a fantastic day for Link's future.

There are other players who are starting to come up with him, and while they need more knowledge in MUs, they will end up finding out their own worth, and maybe they'll expand upon Link in the coming months, and hopefully a lot of them head to EVO (like I am, and am training for).

On the talk of MUs, ROB vs Link, for example is really, really tough, but I don't consider it a -2 in Link anymore; it's an even if you know how to play right, but at worst, a -1 for Link. Gyro and Robo Beam are extremely tough to contend with, and in this MU, you can't just try throwing out Gale Boomerangs in somewhat close proximity to ROB. ROB does have a lot of fast attacks with immense power, but he is punishable with the endlag and the fact that he has to be close range to take Link down. One whiffed Smash attack and Link gets a free attack, preferably Jab > Jab 2 > Spin Attack.

ROB also has to watch out for Link's Clawshot, while Link has to watch out for Gyro going near him as he's on the ledge. As with Grabs, either one of them can pull off some devastation to one another, and both can kill each other very quickly. The MU boils down to who can hit the hardest, get the most combos and who can get the best hits in. This is just an example, but Link may be an even with ROB or a -1 at worst, and that's good considering ROB's higher placement.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Why does so much of this thread have to be taken up by one mans agenda? Can someone put a stop to this please?

Just look at Link in action. He's not good. You can see it if you watch videos of him. You can see how he is really not very good at all. Its like there in plain sight. Izaws result was not unexpected or surprising in the least. Radical Larry's arguments applied unto other characters=all characters except bottom 3 are high mid tier, bottom 3 is mid tier; all mid tiers are high tiers and all high tiers are sheik tier, sheik is metaknight, thus link gets to be high mid tier wooppiiidyy****ingdoo

Also Pikachu is only slightly better than GnW. But Pikachu is like wow such top tier but GnW gets to be crap tier because only murrica matters or what?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Iirc Pac man is up on Diddy if we go by tournament sets that have happened. I think I beat MVD 2-0 at MLG in a friendly session, but he has gotten a lot better since then.

Edit: as far as dropping goes, Pac man is in the middle of the pack at worst imo. He's got his issues, but he's also got way too much at his disposal to approach low tier.

Mario is a big hurdle for him imo, and I could see Cloud and Corrin being problems too.

This is my general opinion of Pac-Man too. It's debatable just how good he is, but he has far too many tools and tricks to be outright bad.

 

[Megamang]

I feel like I have to go down the tier list for quite a while till I find a MU where GaW is better than Pika in. Im no Pika optimist, but cmon.

 

[TurboLink]

The fact that Link's Boomerang is 27 frames frustrates me to no end. (Seriously, it's slower than PK Fire, how the **** did that happen?) It's obviously supposed to be his main combo tool but then it's one of his slowest attacks if not the slowest. It's like making Ryu's down tilt or up tilt 27 frames. I can't even find the logic behind it. It's not like it has particularly high knockback or does a lot of damage. (anymore.)

/rant over.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Aren't Pac's bad MUs really significant in the meta? Isn't that the problem with everyone below Top tier, is a MU with one of the top tiers?

There are also some characters that are low tier because they lack representation. Mii Gunner is the perfect example of this. There isn't a character that is a hard counter to him (Gunner's worst matchups are agreed to be around 40-60), but Mii Gunner doesn't have too many players (ROM is the only high level player that solo mains Gunner, while San, Wii Twerk Trainer, and Chibo have Gunner as a secondary).

L9999 , I would also put Gunner as a character that could be mid tier, but not enough proof. Currently Gunner has a, strong neutral, substandard advantage state, and a decent disadvantage state, but there are some new tech that is being found to improve Gunner. @SpawnSean found some good applications of Lunar Launch that make it a decent landing option (it is like A-Landing but it is much better since it can be b-reversed, and it allows you to get a hitbox that can combo at low percents with proper timing). The video below shows some of the uses of this technique.

https://youtu.be/L713xuNdj2I I think I might have discovered a new Mii Gunner Tech.

 

[FullMoon]

What even are G&W's MUs to begin with? I never know what to think of that character.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

While this is true, it's worth pointing out this was at EVO where the fast bike custom was used and contributed significantly towards his win. (bike->footstool led to an SD) That move's ability to zone-break Rosalina is pretty huge as well.

I don't disagree.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'll be honest, I see nothing special about the Pits in comparison to the characters around them in the tier list. If our proposed meta is about kill confirms, and how efficient they are at getting the job done? What are the Pits' primary ways of killing? Anything that sets up into those kill options? They're certainly good, but I honestly don't see them as better than the likes of Ike, Greninja, Toon Link, or ROB. I see them dropping slightly in the future, but not out of Mid Tier, and not very close to the bottom of it either.

We get that a lot... And that's kinda the point. Just about everything on them is great, besides killing which is "only" better then half the cast.

Pit really could go up or down from here, but the deciding factor is going to be how much his killing ability can be optimized. Trust me, there's a lot of room to improve.

Doesn't dair confirm a kill for the Pits if you miss a tech? Otherwise, they are good at juggling which forces opponents into the effective range of their f-throws. I mean, I think when we say kill confirms rule the meta, we also mean kill throws which serve the same purpose. Unfortunately the pits have a situational kill throw that happens to be meh in power, and while they are decent at surviving they aren't quite heavy enough to be rage monsters. Perhaps their great recovery as well as solid disjoint and multiple jumps means they could survive longer, but again other kill confirms are so prevalent that they don't often see 130%.

Yeah, it does.

Pit's dash grab is like a mini Captain Falcon dash grab, so it's got good range and you'll slide a ways when you land it. Often I end up holding the opponent over the ledge before I Fthrow.

Seems to me Pit's usually living well past 100%... Dunno what else to say.

His gimpability is there, but he makes up for that by trapping at the ledge very very well. Once he grabs you, nairs you, or dtilts you for 25%, you have to worry about landing since those confirms work well to catch landings and continue his dominance. And if the Ike executes well, he can murder you at the ledge with Eruption against probably more characters than Pit can gimp efficiently.

Pit's also great at catching ledge snaps. Back hit of Dsmash lasts 3 frames, hits like a truck (uncharged sourspot does more then Ike's uncharged Eruption), and launches straight horizontally. Usually kills outright. First hit ain't near as good, but that's a small price to pay for coming out on frame 5.

And of course, arrows work on every character. Not saying he can gimp Sheik regularly, but nobody can get back onstage for free against him.

 

[Megamang]

Can mii gunner really claim a ZSS level MU with Shiek? How does he outzone needles, kill her, avoid edgeguards, etc? Or does it come down to shieks never have to worry about him so they don't know the MU?

 

[Locke 06]

The fact that Link's Boomerang is 27 frames frustrates me to no end. (Seriously, it's slower than PK Fire, how the **** did that happen?) It's obviously supposed to be his main combo tool but then it's one of his slowest attacks if not the slowest. It's like making Ryu's down tilt or up tilt 27 frames. I can't even find the logic behind it. It's not like it has particularly high knockback or does a lot of damage. (anymore.)

/rant over.

I wish I had a projectile that was + on shield.

 

[Sonicninja115]

In what world does Pac-Man beat Diddy. Do you care to elaborate?

A down-side is that Pacmains have to know how to z-catch and deal with projectiles. Which can be very annoying if they are better then you with them...

 

[Radical Larry]

The fact that Link's Boomerang is 27 frames frustrates me to no end. (Seriously, it's slower than PK Fire, how the **** did that happen?) It's obviously supposed to be his main combo tool but then it's one of his slowest attacks if not the slowest. It's like making Ryu's down tilt or up tilt 27 frames. I can't even find the logic behind it. It's not like it has particularly high knockback or does a lot of damage. (anymore.)

/rant over.

Then use the Boomerang custom move. It does 2% more damage and is basically the same frame data, but always has a hitbox, has better angle, distance and combo ability.

But I guess the reasoning behind the slow speed could be attributed to him using it for longer ranges than Bomb, and due to angling capabilities. But Bomb is meant to be his main combo tool, I think.

 

[Folie]

Curious about your justification for this. I feel like the metagame development for G&W has stagnated, and I'm not sure where further advancements to his meta would come from (aside from finicky landing nair confirms), since he seems like a fairly straightforward character. To my understanding, he also has a handful of incredibly poor matchups that limit his viability more than that of other mid tiers. Other characters that were worse than him 2 patches ago (ie. Mewtwo, Fire Emblem, Bowser) also got buffs while he was overlooked, making him worse off in comparison. I guess I just don't see where the potential lies for this character.

I think it's not bc he has hidden potential, more so to reflect that his placement is a point of contestion. Some people put him p much where the BR has put him in F, while others, including G&W mains, would put him in mid/high E, some maybe even low D. There's just not a lot of evidence and info out there to make arguments for the character.

Most active G&W mains will tell you that he beats the majority of the cast, and loses to barely any mid-low characters outside of a couple anomalies like DHD (and Bowser, depending on where you put him). One thing we DO have evidence of with Regi vs Esam vids is G&W being able to contest Pikachu, maybe even having a slight advantage against pika. It can also be argued G&W has a slight edge on Mario and Luigi, being able to contest their neutral and recovery games, and Ness, having a workable neutral against him and reliable gimp option in using the Up B windbox. Arguments could also be made for G&W being able to hold his own against relevant characters like Meta Knight (bair surprisingly effective in neutral, one of the few characters that dthrow-uair is actually a reliable kill option), Villager (see Regi vs Ranai, kind of debatable tho since Ranai got careless with lloid rockets), Ryu (mostly theorycraft, Ryu seems to have issues with disjoints, G&W more or less invalidates focus attack as a landing option, somewhat vulnerable recovery), possibly ZSS (almost purely out of crouch and bucket jank), but all in all we lack top players making evidence for this.

Going back to what you said, you are definitely right in that G&W is stagnating. With laggy moves, there's not much to be explored. Pre-shieldstun patch I would've told you G&W belongs in middle/upper-middle but the shieldstun patch made already abysmal MUs worse (Sonic, Fox, Diddy, Sheik are prime examples) and continued buffs to other characters while G&W receives nothing does not spell a good future for the character's advancement. With how everything has been developed and continues to develop I'd say G&W finds his place in low mid (E, bottom of D at best top of F at worst)

 

[Djmarcus44]

Can mii gunner really claim a ZSS level MU with Shiek? How does he outzone needles, kill her, avoid edgeguards, etc? Or does it come down to shieks never have to worry about him so they don't know the MU?

Mii Gunner can dash into shield the needles until he/she gets into the range of sh fair (It outranges sheik's fair and it is fast and safe enough to pressure sheik out of needle camping). Also Gunner can force Sheik to approach by moving to the edge of the stage and charging charge blast when the match starts. The neutral is relatively even depending upon which player has better spacing.

While Gunner isn't very likely to get a kill confirm on Sheik (flame pillar to charge blast is a kill confirm, but it is only a confirm when a character moves into the pillar), Gunner still has some decently fast killing options (frame 5 up tilt that kills around 135, Down tilt is frame 8 and kills around 130, and down smash is frame 9 with good killing power for a smash attack. All of these moves kill earlier on Sheik since she is pretty light). Also Gunner juggles Sheik pretty well since Gunner's Gundashing can help him/her keep up with Sheik's landing options. Gunner's charge blast is also good for covering landings since it has great priority, and it only has 23 frames of ending lag (it is the least laggy among chargeable projectiles that can store the charge). Gunner is also one of the best characters in the game at edgeguarding Sheik since flame pillar covers the ledge for at least 40 frames, and Gunner's charge blast covers every ledge option when timed properly (while this doesn't guarantee kills, flame pillar can be followed up with charge blast around 90-110 percent. Although it isn't a true combo on the combo counter, it is really hard to avoid). Gunner also has some combo throws that can lead into damaging strings against Sheik (More information about this along with some good follow ups that can kill are in the Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread).

While Gunner also gets edgeguarded well by Sheik, Gunner can mix up his/her recovery by Gundashing to the stage. Gunner can also throw out flame pillar or fair to help cover his/her recovery. Gunner can also stall with reflector. While Sheik combos Gunner very well, Gunner can break some of her combos with his/her frame 3 reflector.

In conclusion, Gunner can do about as well as ZSS and possibly better than ZSS in this matchup because Gunner has a much easier time in the neutral than ZSS, while Gunner can still deal solid damage against Sheik. I am not saying that Gunner is better than ZSS at all, I am saying that Gunner's tools interact pretty well with Sheik's compared to the rest of the cast.