Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[bc1910]

I was wondering about that myself, I had heard that you were impressed by his play or something but never that you were beaten by him in tourney.

I knew there was something odd about it lol

@Vinnie

What I find funny is that some of the people liking this particular post, and your original one, are the ones from whom I heard Venia had beaten you lmao. Trying to make it look like they were right.

Anyway sorry for the mixup, I don't live in NA and can only go by what I am told if I don't see it on a stream.

 

[Luco]

has like one of the best Uairs in the game, especially for juggling purposes. It's just his average mobility that keeps that move in check.

 

[bc1910]

Could someone dual main mid tier characters and be major viable? Like Toon Link/Ike or Greninja/Olimar or something? What would be the most viable midtier only dual main?

Greninja can handle every character except Sheik, and some other characters are tricky (Sonic being the worst). Greninja + mid tier who goes as close to even as possible with Sheik, and maybe Sonic, would be a fine combination. As mentioned before, Greninja + Lucario is probably the best mid tier character combo.

Greninja doesn't go even with Fox. Give it some time until counterplay envolves.

Dunno about this one bro. Greninja has been doing fine against Fox for a while. There was also stuff istudying wasn't using against Sodrek, like run-off horizontal HP to beat Fox Illusion to the ledge.

@Illusion. how's your record against Megafox in bracket? (Or the other Fox you told us about, I think it was Megafox though).

 

[Megamang]

Lots of characters would probably take Bowser Jr's dair, it isn't incredible but offers some combos and safeish pressure since it frame cancels (stupid term but its way less laggy if it hits a player or shield. If this is wrong then im embarrassed but it definitely feels this way). And dairs are overall fairly mediocre, so a solid usable dair like that is pretty nice to have. I'd say yoshi doesn't really have a super standout incredible move. A really solid command grab is definitely a high tier neutral B tool though, especially since it can kill. Oh and duh, his dair.

Game and Watch? I mean Bucket is pretty amazing in some MUs and worthless in other MUs. Palutena's reflect fits into this category. Her uair is pretty great but uairs overall are great in this game so im sure lots of characters wouldn't take that change. Link doesn't have any incredible standout moves, bombs and zair are probably the most 'tradeable' where other characters would really want them, maybe uair and dair too, where the disjoint + more mobile characters would be silly. DHD? Clay Shot is pretty amazing if you get the setups down, but a slow character probably wouldn't make much of it.

DDD? Gordos make a solid ledge trap, but aren't good neutral tools. And they aren't supposed to be, but when a character has a pretty lackluster neutral, it seems like he would prefer a neutral tool over one he doesn't get to utilize much if the opponent keeps him suppressed. Uair is great though, CF with DDD uair would be silly. Does Lucina's shieldbreaker count?

I honestly don't think spindash would be amazing on certain characters, we are better at negating it every day. Its still a great combo and mixup tool though, its hard to guage because its so ingrained in the character's identity. And im biased because pellets. Roy's most standout move is probably side B? Other characters would love a fast high damage punish tool like that.

 

[Smog Frog]

is also a character filled to the brim with good moves(dare i say overloaded?), but is saddled with subpar mobility.

 

[bc1910]

Can I get some opinions on ?

Where do you guys see the Pits in the current meta? I haven't been following their results avidly, but there weren't any notable results from them in the results from last weekend that got posted in this thread. Don't know how they placed in Japan last weekend.

I feel that are characters who started off strong, but the cracks are starting to show as Sm4sh's meta matures. Meanwhile, are on the rise. I'm not sure which of these groups the Pits fit into. Do they have staying power, or will there be a slow downward trend for them? The Pits are interesting in that they've pretty much remained static in people's opinions since release, always ranked around 15-20th, while almost every other character has risen or fallen on the tier list.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Pits are solid; long range, fast, pretty low lag, good follow ups, etc. Super underplayed for how good they are. Theyre obviously at least Mid tier, probably higher. Atm I'd say around the bottom of High Tier.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So I have another Shulk vid for you all to look at

Look at nicko body this luigi with Shulk. Any thoughts?

Good Shulk play, but it also looked like he got a bunch of good reads on Luigi so I'm not sure if this is "Shulk > Luigi" or "Player 1 > Player 2".

Also, a thought I've been having off and on. With Bayonetta and Corrin it seems that counters as disadvantage breakers are becoming more of a thing. Witch Time at least is pretty good at breaking combos and strings that aren't true, and Corrin's counter kills ridonkulously early. How do other counters fare at this purpose? (Marth, Ike, Roy, Palutena, Shulk, Peach, Lucario, Greninja*)

*Also notable because he can angle his counterattack in 8 directions.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Dunno about this one bro. Greninja has been doing fine against Fox for a while. There was also stuff istudying wasn't using against Sodrek, like run-off horizontal HP to beat Fox Illusion to the ledge.

Two relevant wins =/= "doing fine for a while". Sodrek fell for just about every trick istudy had used and it was fairly obvious that he had no Greninja experience relevant enough to be ready for something at Dennis' level. To this day most people still hardly grasp the basics of that character.

Still took him to last hit regardless.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Wario never exactly started off strong in terms of result. Wario being good was the common opinion for a while, but nobody knew exactly why. (still holds true)

And his results now are better than before, mainly because of Reflex.

 

[FullMoon]

Good Shulk play, but it also looked like he got a bunch of good reads on Luigi so I'm not sure if this is "Shulk > Luigi" or "Player 1 > Player 2".

Also, a thought I've been having off and on. With Bayonetta and Corrin it seems that counters as disadvantage breakers are becoming more of a thing. Witch Time at least is pretty good at breaking combos and strings that aren't true, and Corrin's counter kills ridonkulously early. How do other counters fare at this purpose? (Marth, Ike, Roy, Palutena, Shulk, Peach, Lucario, Greninja*)

*Also notable because he can angle his counterattack in 8 directions.

Substitute is interesting because if you get a read while somebody is chasing offstage you can potentially dunk them and still make it back onstage, or just use it in order to get back onstage. It also works well on recoveries that don't autosnap the edge like Shulk's and Cloud's since you can spike them if they trigger it.

It and Corrin's are the only counters that kill off the top too (and I guess follow-ups from Witch Time), if Substitute was just easier to hit with then it would easily be among the best counters because that stuff kills super early even if it has fixed damage and it would make Greninja scarier in disadvantage.

Substitute had the potential to be a really good move but then they screwed it up. It's still a decent option though.

 

[bc1910]

Spinosaurus I know, but he started strong in people's opinion. Does Reflex still play him? Seen nothing for months.

I used to think Substitute was absolutely terrible but it's actually a very powerful option in certain situations. Probably still the worst counter overall, but not a complete waste of a Down B like I thought. Though I do think they could have done something more interesting than yet another counter with Greninja's Down B. Something to incorporate Mat Block (as a projectile reflector?) or Night Slash would have been nice.

Still wish they had just given him Bouncing Fish and called it Bounce.

Dair is clearly supposed to be Bounce though, I guess.

Two relevant wins =/= "doing fine for a while". Sodrek fell for just about every trick istudy had used and it was fairly obvious that he had no Greninja experience relevant enough to be ready for something at Dennis' level. To this day most people still hardly grasp the basics of that character.

Still took him to last hit regardless.

If @Illusion.'s record is as good as I recall then Greninja has more than two relevant wins over Fox but I'll wait for him to weigh in. Not sure which ones were in bracket.

There's no reason why Greninja couldn't develop further counterplay against Fox either.

MU inexperience is a factor now, as it has been with all of the new/under-repped characters. Only time will tell whether Greninja will have staying power (Rosalina) or get figured out (Pac-Man).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Greninja has staying power to keep his spot at high-mid tier, I just don't think he's really even with Fox. Not that it matters a whole lot.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Spinosaurus I know, but he started strong in people's opinion. Does Reflex still play him? Seen nothing for months.

Yes, got 1st in KiT16 (90 entrants) recently and a relatively big local in Atlanta (128 entrants, including Scatt, Fatality and Rango) just two weeks ago with him. Still pushing his meta as well in the boards.

 

[L9999]

Can I get some opinions on ?

Where do you guys see the Pits in the current meta? I haven't been following their results avidly, but there weren't any notable results from them in the results from last weekend that got posted in this thread. Don't know how they placed in Japan last weekend.

I feel that are characters who started off strong, but the cracks are starting to show as Sm4sh's meta matures. Meanwhile, are on the rise. I'm not sure which of these groups the Pits fit into. Do they have staying power, or will there be a slow downward trend for them? The Pits are interesting in that they've pretty much remained static in people's opinions since release, always ranked around 15-20th, while almost every other character has risen or fallen on the tier list.

Don't forget Pac-Man. His popularity went down the drain a couple months ago and was strong for a while.

 

[NogGoggler]

Don't forget Pac-Man. His popularity went down the drain a couple months ago and was strong for a while.

Since abadango dropped him, Zage is his only real rep. And Zage is barely top 10 on the MDVA PR, which isn't very impressive nationally.

 

[Radical Larry]

Pits are solid; long range, fast, pretty low lag, good follow ups, etc. Super underplayed for how good they are. Theyre obviously at least Mid tier, probably higher. Atm I'd say around the bottom of High Tier.

But they have glaring flaws such as shorter range on some attacks, weak damage on their attacks, some attacks being very punishable on block (F-Air, F-Smash, D-Smash, F-Spec and U-Smash being examples), and despite their good speed, their air speed isn't that good, and their recoveries are easily gimpable with a meteor or attack. I forgot to mention that some attacks are unsafe to use in general (D-Spec vs non-projectile characters in general due to its ending lag and U-Spec if the Pits land on stage close to their opponent).

They can't reliably play in the air against opponents like Link, because Link can just catch up with them and use his more-disjointed attacks, for example. All of the sword fighters have no trouble keeping up with the Pits if they try air games vs the grounded fighters.

However, they do have some great edge-guarding ability and gimping ability to them, especially on Ness. That plus the other positives would make the Pits seem upper middle, maybe. But they're no high tier.

 

[Jalil]

Since abadango dropped him, Zage is his only real rep. And Zage is barely top 10 on the MDVA PR, which isn't very impressive nationally.

There's Tea and Dee from Japan who I think are both better than abadango ever was and zage but Dee is a wifi warrior and Tea doesn't go to that many tournaments.

 

[L9999]

But they have glaring flaws such as shorter range on some attacks, weak damage on their attacks, some attacks being very punishable on block (F-Air, F-Smash, D-Smash, F-Spec and U-Smash being examples), and despite their good speed, their air speed isn't that good, and their recoveries are easily gimpable with a meteor or attack. I forgot to mention that some attacks are unsafe to use in general (D-Spec vs non-projectile characters in general due to its ending lag and U-Spec if the Pits land on stage close to their opponent).

They can't reliably play in the air against opponents like Link, because Link can just catch up with them and use his more-disjointed attacks, for example. All of the sword fighters have no trouble keeping up with the Pits if they try air games vs the grounded fighters.

However, they do have some great edge-guarding ability and gimping ability to them, especially on Ness. That plus the other positives would make the Pits seem upper middle, maybe. But they're no high tier.

I won't get into the debate of "Pit's Up B sucks" because that debate among others killed the other thread. Guardian Orbitars is extremely situational and Pit would never want to land with Up B on the stage unless it is 100% necessary (which rarely happens). Pit has multiple jumps and good aerials to tick off edgeguarders, so most of the time Pit will get to the ledge.

 

[Radical Larry]

I won't get into the debate of "Pit's Up B sucks" because that debate among others killed the other thread. Guardian Orbitars is extremely situational and Pit would never want to land with Up B on the stage unless it is 100% necessary (which rarely happens). Pit has multiple jumps and good aerials to tick off edgeguarders, so most of the time Pit will get to the ledge.

But you have characters like Link, Ike, Bowser, D3, Villager and Marth, to name a few, who can just beat the Pits' aerials. And because the Pits have no hitbox on that Up B, if they so much as try recovering up stage as their last option, they're probably dead through meteors or stage spiking. But it's also beautiful to see Mario or Doc reverse them with Cape and Super Sheet.

And the Orbitars are not only for certain situations, but they're not safe to use above opponents; some opponents will hit them out from below.

 

[Megamang]

I think the Pits will remain more or less where they are in the meta. Characters with no glaring flaws, where a skilled player can pull out a win with solid play in neutral and advantage. While we are on the topic of great moves, their dash attacks are crazy good burst hitboxes, and open up their strong combo game. I often wonder if they have unexplored footstool potential, due to the way dair sets them up and how electroshock makes a really solid chase on a grounded opponent. Arrows are always nice to have, and their dashgrabs are nice. Also, having a forward facing kill throw is really nice, giving them powerful options both from waiting on the ledge to punish or going for a gimp, based on MUs. While predictable sometimes, super armor kill moves are always nice to have if you make a good call, or simply feel your risk/reward is favoring you at that moment. They have all the essential tools for proper fighting game RPS, it just depends on the player to utilize it. They can't abuse any certain tools if the opponent sees it coming, but they always have something else to use.

I feel bayo being added helps them; it may not be a good MU but a disjoint, good projectiles, and a solid recovery means they perform more or less alright against her, again leaving the onus on the player to make plays.

The whole dual main thing is a pretty nice perk of having the characters.

EDIT: I hate to sound like a pit main (just kidding guys) but show me a video of a pit getting gimped without making some stupid mistake, and I consider missing techs when you go for a kill or when you have a few seconds to prepare as stupid mistakes.

Link offstage is taking a risk against pit, and link waiting on stage doesn't have a good answer to the Earth thing where he pushes you back with the shields and regrabs while you are pushed back.

 

[L9999]

But you have characters like Link, Ike, Bowser, D3, Villager and Marth, to name a few, who can just beat the Pits' aerials. And because the Pits have no hitbox on that Up B, if they so much as try recovering up stage as their last option, they're probably dead through meteors or stage spiking. But it's also beautiful to see Mario or Doc reverse them with Cape and Super Sheet.

And the Orbitars are not only for certain situations, but they're not safe to use above opponents; some opponents will hit them out from below.

For starters Killager doesn't give a damn about anyone offstage. Pit can also fire arrows, use Side B, or airdodge, not neccesarily use an aerial to get back to the stage. And he has multiple jumps to mix up things.

 

[Jaguar360]

Since abadango dropped him, Zage is his only real rep. And Zage is barely top 10 on the MDVA PR, which isn't very impressive nationally.

Sinji is a New York Pacman who has some Top 3 placements at Nebulous events and is an honorable mention on the NY PR (meaning around #11).

John#s vs Sinji Grand Finals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7lgDAtyyO4

Venia vs Sinji Winners Finals (This is one of my favorite sets of all time!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RevLNWkXNOg

Koolaid also brings him out sometimes, but I don't know how he's been doing lately and he plays a lot of characters. There's also a really good non-Aba Pacman in Japan, but I don't remember his name.

 

[Radical Larry]

For starters Killager doesn't give a damn about anyone offstage. Pit can also fire arrows, use Side B, or airdodge, not neccesarily use an aerial to get back to the stage. And he has multiple jumps to mix up things.

Don't Side B, some characters can just outright beat that (Ike, Mario, Doctor Mario, any other sword fighters and Ganondorf).
With Arrows, that is a good strategy to use against them.
But I'd be careful with air dodging, since some opponents can bait them into air dodging and then end up hitting them.

 

[bc1910]

Don't forget Pac-Man. His popularity went down the drain a couple months ago and was strong for a while.

To be honest I didn't list him because the characters I listed are trending down slightly, but still strong. As in, you'd be unwise not to prepare for them in tourney. Pac's just kind of fallen off a cliff.

Results can still surface from players like Zage as people have pointed out but they're not massively impressive. I still think Pac-Man is good (key + hydrant is enough to make anyone shudder) but struggles horribly with killing, which is the most important thing.

 

[Tri Knight]

Don't Side B, some characters can just outright beat that (Ike, Mario, Doctor Mario, any other sword fighters and Ganondorf).
With Arrows, that is a good strategy to use against them.
But I'd be careful with air dodging, since some opponents can bait them into air dodging and then end up hitting them.

what do you mean by outright beat it? Are you talking about Pits side-b?

 

[Nobie]

John Numbers vs. Sinji is a magical matchup that if on a grander stage would drive the normally impatient Twitch stream monsters into a blithering mess.

80% of the time their games go to time, due to a combination of preferred play styles on both sides, character choices, and more.

If you wanted to convince people (disingenuously) about why not to do 3-stock, it would be to show them nothing but John Numbers vs. Sinji matchups. That's because it doesn't matter if it's 2 stocks or 20 stocks, it's going to end up the same way, with two defensive characters WHO CAN HEAL lobbing things at each other and fighting for every single percent of damage.

Not that I mind it, because I think it's cool that Smash 4 can have ridiculously fast matches and really slow, drawn out ones, but I don't see the ResidentSleepers tolerating it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

John Numbers vs. Sinji is a magical matchup that if on a grander stage would drive the normally impatient Twitch stream monsters into a blithering mess.

80% of the time their games go to time, due to a combination of preferred play styles on both sides, character choices, and more.

If you wanted to convince people (disingenuously) about why not to do 3-stock, it would be to show them nothing but John Numbers vs. Sinji matchups. That's because it doesn't matter if it's 2 stocks or 20 stocks, it's going to end up the same way, with two defensive characters WHO CAN HEAL lobbing things at each other and fighting for every single percent of damage.

Not that I mind it, because I think it's cool that Smash 4 can have ridiculously fast matches and really slow, drawn out ones, but I don't see the ResidentSleepers tolerating it.

Who does Sinji use? I'm guessing Pac-Man since that's the only other character I can think of offhand with self-healing. (Power Pellet)

 

[LancerStaff]

But they have glaring flaws such as shorter range on some attacks, weak damage on their attacks, some attacks being very punishable on block (F-Air, F-Smash, D-Smash, F-Spec and U-Smash being examples), and despite their good speed, their air speed isn't that good, and their recoveries are easily gimpable with a meteor or attack. I forgot to mention that some attacks are unsafe to use in general (D-Spec vs non-projectile characters in general due to its ending lag and U-Spec if the Pits land on stage close to their opponent).

They can't reliably play in the air against opponents like Link, because Link can just catch up with them and use his more-disjointed attacks, for example. All of the sword fighters have no trouble keeping up with the Pits if they try air games vs the grounded fighters.

However, they do have some great edge-guarding ability and gimping ability to them, especially on Ness. That plus the other positives would make the Pits seem upper middle, maybe. But they're no high tier.

Uh, dude, Fair's one of his safer moves... And Dsmash can be safe depending on a few factors too, such as the back hit having similar frame data to MK Fsmash and Mewtwo Dsmash. The other unsafe moves aren't supposed to be safe, and would be completely bonkers if they were. Raw damage per attack is perfectly fine, and the shorter ranged moves such as Nair completely make up for it in different ways.

Everything else is a problem, yes, but they're not really relevant in the grand scheme of things. It's like saying when you reflect Gale Boomerang you can push Link offstage and gimp him from there... It can happen, but the Link has to be stupid for it to.

You gotta do your research, Larry.

Link offstage is taking a risk against pit, and link waiting on stage doesn't have a good answer to the Earth thing where he pushes you back with the shields and regrabs while you are pushed back.

Actually he does because tethers completely and utterly beat out Pit's Dspecial. Even without it I'm not entirely sure how safe it would be because the move's so dang laggy. Just assume that anything involving Guardian Orbitars can be beat and people don't know jack about the move.

For starters Killager doesn't give a damn about anyone offstage. Pit can also fire arrows, use Side B, or airdodge, not neccesarily use an aerial to get back to the stage. And he has multiple jumps to mix up things.

It's funny because Pit can actually do things to protect himself offstage against Villager. Pit can side B a bowling ball and bounce off of it right onto the ledge, or use his jumps and reflector to bounce it back into Villager's face if he's close enough, and arrows stop any and all charging of smash attacks on the ledge. Even If Pit's below the ledge since he can shoot straight up.

I think an arrow (fired straight up again) can even cancel out the hitbox on the bowling ball, but don't quote me on that one.

Who does Sinji use? I'm guessing Pac-Man since that's the only other character I can think of offhand with self-healing. (Power Pellet)

There's also Wario with the tech where he crashes into the ledge with the bike and eats it for quick healing.

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm away from my laptop now but I wanna say Larry's edge guarding argument is very silly for too many reasons to text on my phone.

Unfortunately Wintropy-San doesn't hang out here anymore....... I may not secondary them anymore but I'm not rusty on the Angel boys' information. I'll pick up the slack I guess.

The Pits' greatest advantage is their versatility. They're so many ways you can play them. Nairo's Pit and Earth's Pit play nothing alike, but they're both really good.

Also their juggling abilities are also superb. Up smash, up air, and dash attack are great at denying landings.

I'm glad we've left the phase of "Pits are okay at a lot of things", cause they're not. They're great at a lot of things.

 

[Man Li Gi]

IMO Pit is good. The thing is Pit is great in about 1 of the 3 states of fighting games. Luckily, it's probably the most important of the 3: his disadvantage. In a negative state, Pit could jump away, run away, play keep away with arrows, and could try to surprise someone with side b. Pit's neutral is pretty average, with meh tilts, a decent jab, great dsmash, decent usmash, bad fsmash. His advantage makes me laugh because with his lowish damage output, lack of power, and meh combo game, means a long and drawn out game of cat and mouse. I used to play Pit in Brawl and played Dank Pit in this game and came to the same conclusion of saying "he's so close to being fantastic, but he ain't".

 

[Jaguar360]

Who does Sinji use? I'm guessing Pac-Man since that's the only other character I can think of offhand with self-healing. (Power Pellet)

Sinji is a New York Pacman who has some Top 3 placements at Nebulous events and is an honorable mention on the NY PR (meaning around #11).

John#s vs Sinji Grand Finals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7lgDAtyyO4

Venia vs Sinji Winners Finals (This is one of my favorite sets of all time!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RevLNWkXNOg

Koolaid also brings him out sometimes, but I don't know how he's been doing lately and he plays a lot of characters. There's also a really good non-Aba Pacman in Japan, but I don't remember his name.

 

[Smog Frog]

i've been considering this as a possibility for some time now: might have a rough mu with for roughly the same reasons he struggles with ? giant disjointed aerials with no landing lag are a huge pain in the ass for .

 

[Kofu]

IMO Pit is good. The thing is Pit is great in about 1 of the 3 states of fighting games. Luckily, it's probably the most important of the 3: his disadvantage. In a negative state, Pit could jump away, run away, play keep away with arrows, and could try to surprise someone with side b. Pit's neutral is pretty average, with meh tilts, a decent jab, great dsmash, decent usmash, bad fsmash. His advantage makes me laugh because with his lowish damage output, lack of power, and meh combo game, means a long and drawn out game of cat and mouse. I used to play Pit in Brawl and played Dank Pit in this game and came to the same conclusion of saying "he's so close to being fantastic, but he ain't".

I'm curious why you call Pit's FSmash bad. FSmashes generally aren't great in this game but Pit's strikes me as one of the better ones. Has two hits so it can be hard to dodge, one of (if not the) fastest FSmash at frame 10, excellent range, and respectable KO power. Sure, it's unsafe on shield but it's good at almost everything else.

 

[Radical Larry]

what do you mean by outright beat it? Are you talking about Pits side-b?

To clarify, wait for near the end of the move, as the Super Armor wears off after only a short amount of time, and when they're spinning downward, the opponents can beat it. Even then with the SA, characters like Ike and Link can stay a very safe distance away from them as they attack and deal the damage, or even with proper timing, can knock them back. With Mario and Doc, I think turning the two around with Side-B is enough said for that.

Oh, and with Ganondorf, Flame Choke answers the attack, or if you're looking for impracticality, try meteoring at the time the Pits lose the SA in mid-air.

The timing is so short for their SA that any opponent under or over them could potentially beat them.

 

[LancerStaff]

To me Pit's jab seems pretty great. F5 yeah but it's got like twice the range of Ike's and it's heavily disjointed on all three hits. Sets up stuff like his ridiculously low startup smashes. Dtilt comes out a frame latter then Corrin's with the same endlag but again there's a lot more range there. Ftilt and Utilt definitely aren't neutral tools, but with the jab the size of an average Ftilt it's no biggie.

Pit's low percent combo game is phenomenal. Fthrow > Usmash, Bthrow > DA, Uthrow > Nair/Uair, Dthrow > Usmash... Yep, true combos out of every throw. At least one of these work on any given character, and they deal about 20% or more and then goes back to how good he is at catching landings. After a while Dthrow > Uair/Fair is what you're left with and that's like 14% on average. Lately I've been thinking Uthrow would be better much later because Uthrow itself is 11% and one arrow is 3%, and he's probably going to get much more then that since his main landing trap moves all deal about 10% and some are even combo tools.

I don't think people give his Dair enough credit either, since it's basically Corrin's Fair but below him. Even when using it in a low commitment way there's plenty of true combos out of it, doing 20% on average again.

I'm curious why you call Pit's FSmash bad. FSmashes in generally aren't great in this game but Pit's strikes me as one of the better ones. Has two hits so it can be hard to dodge, one of (if not the) fastest FSmash at frame 10, excellent range, and respectable KO power. Sure, it's unsafe on shield but it's good at almost everything else.

Tied for fastest Fsmash with Marth and Samus, kills about 10% later then Electroshock Arm, and beats out spotdodges unless you're incredibly unlucky. Very definitely unsafe on shield, yeah, but even if it was only somewhat punishable it'd be kinda nuts.

To clarify, wait for near the end of the move, as the Super Armor wears off after only a short amount of time, and when they're spinning downward, the opponents can beat it. Even then with the SA, characters like Ike and Link can stay a very safe distance away from them as they attack and deal the damage, or even with proper timing, can knock them back. With Mario and Doc, I think turning the two around with Side-B is enough said for that.

Oh, and with Ganondorf, Flame Choke answers the attack, or if you're looking for impracticality, try meteoring at the time the Pits lose the SA in mid-air.

The timing is so short for their SA that any opponent under or over them could potentially beat them.

Armor lasts about 15 frames. Usually if he's using it it's close enough to the ledge to ledge snap or just cover the ledge with the potential hitbox. (Ergo, no charge on Eruption.)

Yep, Flame Choke beats it. Though Dorf needs to already be offstage to really do so, and Pit can react and recover low while Dorf gets back onstage. It's not easy for Dorf to make use of outside of a side B war. The capes don't really do much from my experience. Worst thing that's happened is that I've been flipped while the uppercut comes out and we're back in the same position again.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I'm curious why you call Pit's FSmash bad. FSmashes in generally aren't great in this game but Pit's strikes me as one of the better ones. Has two hits so it can be hard to dodge, one of (if not the) fastest FSmash at frame 10, excellent range, and respectable KO power. Sure, it's unsafe on shield but it's good at almost everything else.

I've had the grace of someone Sding out of it. I SDI it myself as DK. Plus someone lost the match against me thanks to the low active frames and low damage. Its just underwhelming in a pretty average kit.

Also I know why people have a hard time defining and placing Pit high. Many of the points in my last post+ lack of a strong advantage if any means you're constantly playing neutral or disadvantage. No character shares this trait.

 

[Radical Larry]

LancerStaff I've flipped Pits around with Doc's Cape before, so it's a proximity thing.

And with Ganondorf beating Pit's side B, it takes dedication for Ganondorf players to go to the same elevation as Pits and Flame Choke them. Other than that, he does have an attack that comes out F14 (F-Air), slamming forward around F16. Same nearly goes with Link, Ike and company, who have F-Airs that wait out the Pits' F-Spec. Like you said, Armor lasts around 15 frames, so if, for example, Link's F14 F-Air's first hit doesn't knock them back, the second hit will.

 

[LancerStaff]

I've had the grace of someone Sding out of it. I SDI it myself as DK. Plus someone lost the match against me thanks to the low active frames and low damage. Its just underwhelming in a pretty average kit.

Also I know why people have a hard time defining and placing Pit high. Many of the points in my last post+ lack of a strong advantage if any means you're constantly playing neutral or disadvantage. No character shares this trait.

The idea is to use it when it'll link properly... SDI isn't the issue, just the amount of knockback on the first hit. If you're preemptively DIing the first hit that's also the worst way to DI the second or any other kill move.

Just because it has limitations doesn't mean it's bad.

 

[R3D3MON]

LancerStaff
Bowser Jr's aerials are quite good and balanced. His up air is a god like aerial with endlag, landing lag, and auto cancel frames that rivals Luigi's aerials. His nair is a good combo breaker with good startup, good initial and final auto cancel frames, and low landing lag. and his dair is a nice multihit aerial with a landing hitbox that can catch people dropping shield. His bair has a surprising amount of initial autocancel frames that rival kirby's dair (1-11 frames for Bowser Jr's bair; 1-17 frames for Kirby's dair). His jab 1 comes out on frame 4 and ends at frame 20, which rivals Luigi's jab 1 and jab 2.His jab is great for jab mixups and jab cancels into grabs, etc.

Bowser is a weird case where his moveset seems mediocre but ultimately flows together very well with his buffed u-throw (which Sakurai nerfed because kill setups are bad for the game, right? kappa) to create a heavy that dishes out huge punishes for shielding too long or being too aggresive on Boswer's shield.