Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[NairWizard]

As it should be! Why are really amazing moves usually tied to speed demons in smash? Why doesn't poor ol zelda get a falco laser

You mean, why doesn't poor old Falco get a Falco laser?

 

[Megamang]

For both greninja and megaman, two characters who have severe roadblock issues with shiek, i have a remarkably similar feeling. Every time I am doing anything in neutral, I'm thinking about how I shouldn't be able to get away with what im doing. Shiek just dominates such an area around her with her burst mobility, she outbuttons you because of fairs insane range, once she wins neutral with fair she can follow up supremely well since a grab leads to kills. If you sit back to figure out how to deal with fair, needles just eat you alive/beat all your projectiles, buttons... why, why why why are needles, little pieces of metal, transcendent, a property of lasers.

Worth mentioning is things have gotten better for ninja since the shield stun buff. Before that, his issue was everything he did she just popped out of shield and fair planed you. I know this is a huge callback and we basically forget the times before this major change, but im so glad they did it. It was a genius decision, basically turning safety from a property of shiek to a usable tool for most of the cast. This is relevant now because greninja's bad startup from nair/fair ,and shiek's extremely low profile from a crouch means good shieks will get a lot of powershields.

I haven't played greninja in a long time so I won't say much about the shiek MU (since she has so much progress on her meta, im sure the MU has changed), but I do have megaman input. The ways i've found to deal with shiek is to be obnoxiously, ridiculously safe as soon as u-air starts killing. Rage is your best friend, and you can win the MU even if she deals twice the damage. I also think a proactive neutral is important, if you slow everything down then you will just lose to fair and needles. You need some hectic action so a stray metal blade will confirm a utilt, she'll make a bad nair on shield near the ledge, or try and challenge bair... just, something that gives her an early death and you surviving forever, and her winning neutral 75% of the time won't matter. This is doable on battlefield, and basically impossible when she can confirm a d-throw uair kill on small stages.


Also, greninjas, you know how people shouldn't airdodge your 5050s unless they want a horrific death? No one should ever die to vanish 50/50 unless the uair will kill you too, airdodging and dying to vanish when uair wont kill you is ridiculously greedy.

 

[Sonicninja115]

About SDI: It requires faster input that foxtrotting, but isn't as precise. Make sure you are using quarter circle mashing, its the fastest way to get down and away from Witch Twist. It isn't exactly twitch reactions though, you know when you are getting bayo combo'd and the SDI will both move you away a little from any hit and send you in the right regular DI direction, so any bit helps, while more is almost always better. (I say almost because there might be weird situations, such as you were going to be sent out flat horizontally to escape but instead launched even more down into divekick territory. Not sure that one can happen, just an example of her varied combo options making it so you can't always choose right/there is no universally safe escape. Escaping Witch Twist is a solid place to start though, its a huge part of all her huge combos, especially the death ones)

I use quarter circle SDI, I am just wondering if it is okay to say, "Should've SDI'ed it" as if it is the easiest thing in the world. It is certainly possible, but I don't think it is easy in the slightest.

 

[Halifax?]

Could someone dual main mid tier characters and be major viable? Like Toon Link/Ike or Greninja/Olimar or something? What would be the most viable midtier only dual main?

 

[Megamang]

Not to beat a dead horse, but if both of those mid tiers get slaughtered by sheik then you are just splitting your time when you are already disadvantaged.

Ive thought about this though, a jack of all trades player playing advantaged MU's as much as possible, thriving off of fundamentals and lack of MU knowledge. I certainly hope to see it some day, and we do see top players with high level pockets.

 

[Illuminose]

It's worth noting that iStudying regularly takes games over Mr R, who both knows the matchup and is a higher caliber player with more experience (so is ESAM, but ESAM didn't know the matchup). It doesn't look like Beast when they play normally. I heavily doubt that the matchup is as hopeless as Greninja mains tend to advocate. Greninja's low profile, quick/low commitment options, excellent mobility, and devastating punishes have to give him tools. Most of the arguments I've seen mostly just say that Sheik is a better character and 'outclasses' Greninja. This says little about the matchup and feels incomplete (i.e. can be developed).

Not to beat a dead horse, but if both of those mid tiers get slaughtered by sheik then you are just splitting your time when you are already disadvantaged.

Ive thought about this though, a jack of all trades player playing advantaged MU's as much as possible, thriving off of fundamentals and lack of MU knowledge. I certainly hope to see it some day, and we do see top players with high level pockets.

the player's name is anti

 

[C0rvus]

I see that happening more and more where players get into counterpick wars until they're both playing Sheik lol. Could be a direction mid tier players are going.
Dual maining mid tiers sounds cool on paper. At least one of them has to handle Sheik, ZSS, Rosa, Bayonetta, etc. Decent pairs I can think off the top of my head would be Olimar/Bowser, Shulk/Lucario, Marth/Wii Fit Trainer.
I think if you want to play a mid tier, having a high tier secondary would serve you much better. Lucario/Cloud, Mega Man/Bayonetta, Corrin/Ness, etc. are much stronger and generally require less effort.

 

[LancerStaff]

What characters do well against Shiek, ZSS and Sonic? You can probably tell where I'm going with this...

 

[C0rvus]

Toon Link, but I personally put him at the edge of high tier sooooooo
Your point stands. Really playing 2 characters BECAUSE they are "mid tier" specifically is a fool's errand.

Edit: Considering posting the tier list I've been working on.

 

[Tri Knight]

I think the problem with people over this Link thing is it seems that people look at an MU like Link and Fox and say, "oh, -2 MU. Link loses automatically." But then when Link actually wins it's like a huge debate on whether Link is top tier or not. No it doesn't work that way. In a situation like that, yes he's at a huge disadvantage but it's not impossible. Especially when the player is better than his or her opponent.

My point is, yes Link made top 10 but it was bound to happen eventually. That goes for every character. With the right conditions I'm sure most characters can make some kind of relevant placement in a tourney.

 

[FullMoon]

I truly feel like Sheik's the only character Greninja really has to worry about and his mains should probably be pooling all their efforts to figuring that one out (if they aren't already). I think his abilities are sufficient in any other matchup.

What are Greninja's best tools vs. Sheik? What's the optimal way to play against her?

Greninja can play mid-range with Sheik with F-Air spacing well, the problem is that it's very easy for Sheik to close and beat him in CQC. The best way to approach the Sheik MU is to stay just outside of her range and waiting for an opportunity to strike.

Greninja's high damage output (especially with optimized combos like the ones iStudying has shown) and good KO power mean that he doesn't have to win neutral too many times to take Sheik's stock, but those openings are just so hard to get that it's incredibly frustrating to get anything started.

The comeback potential makes the MU not hopeless for Greninja, especially because it's not too hard to get high rage against Sheik. iStudying does take games out of Mr.R sometimes (though I'm pretty sure he never took a set off him), it was clear that ESAM really drained him, so it's proof that the MU is possible, just really frustrating for the Greninja to get through.

It's not impossible, but unless you're really that devoted to Greninja you should just get a secondary for Sheik and do the rest with the frog.

 

[KenMeister]

I think the problem with people over this Link thing is it seems that people look at an MU like Link and Fox and say, "oh, -2 MU. Link loses automatically." But then when Link actually wins it's like a huge debate on whether Link is top tier or not. No it doesn't work that way. In a situation like that, yes he's at a huge disadvantage but it's not impossible. Especially when the player is better than his or her opponent.

My point is, yes Link made top 10 but it was bound to happen eventually. That goes for every character. With the right conditions I'm sure most characters can make some kind of relevant placement in a tourney.

Or ya know, dismiss Link all-together without actually putting any real effort into theorycrafting/researching his MUs and what he CAN do.

 

[Jams.]

Could someone dual main mid tier characters and be major viable? Like Toon Link/Ike or Greninja/Olimar or something? What would be the most viable midtier only dual main?

Using the official tier list as a guideline for "mid tier," I think anyone looking to dual main mid tiers and have a shot at doing well in big tournaments needs to play , since he's one of the only mid tiers who doesn't get completely routed by Sheik. He probably has the best Sheik MU out of all the mid tiers (and arguably has one of the best Sheik MUs period), and you really want to maximize this matchup considering Sheik disproportionate representation. After that, you'd need another character that can cover Lucario's worst matchups, which to my understanding are Cloud and ZSS. seems like he does fine in both those MUs, though IDK if another mid tier would cover those MUs better or cover Lucario's other bad MUs.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Link's been mid tier ever since he got throw combos. He might well wind up on the lower end of mid tier, but his tools are too good to actually be low tier. Him and Lucas are the two characters generally lumped into low tier for reasons I can't understand when their tools are pretty clearly mid tier in my mind.

 

[C0rvus]

It's really a matter of a number of characters just being better. Also depends on the criteria you have for each tier. In terms of results, Link and Lucas are practically non existent, but I agree with them being stronger than many perceived mid tiers.

 

[KenMeister]

Link's been mid tier ever since he got throw combos. He might well wind up on the lower end of mid tier, but his tools are too good to actually be low tier. Him and Lucas are the two characters generally lumped into low tier for reasons I can't understand when their tools are pretty clearly mid tier in my mind.

Because Lucas literally has nothing in terms of results and any notable players people are familiar with or know about, outside of Pink Fresh I guess, but he's probably not the best example to abide by. He's in the same boat as theorycraft characters like Roy tbh.

 

[Eugene Wang]

There are two different definitions of mid-tier that will probably get twisted up into knots in this thread if we don't distinguish them now: "Somewhat competitively viable, but not a regular winner", and "Being around the center of competitive viability". The former is an absolute definition, and the latter is a relative definition. Which one are we going to keep, and which one are we going to reassign? (There's a similar issue with the definition of other tier levels, but we'll get to it when we get to it.)

That said, Smash 4's balance is pretty good, or at least certainly better than it was in previous incarnations. Off of the top of my head, there are only 3 characters that are unambiguously competitively unviable: . There are probably more relative low tiers than those three, but sufficiently skilled players can make even work, which gives those low tiers a degree of competitive viability that, in melee, was considered the mark of a mid-tier.

 

[Tri Knight]

Or ya know, dismiss Link all-together without actually putting any real effort into theorycrafting/researching his MUs and what he CAN do.

Most people can just look at his frame data and pinpoint where exactly he's flawed.

 

[KenMeister]

Most people can just look at his frame data and pinpoint where exactly he's flawed.

Didn't stop players from pushing characters like Greninja, Bayonetta, and Bowser despite their obvious mediocre frame data flaws.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Most people can just look at his frame data and pinpoint where exactly he's flawed.

Like Shulk
Shame that people only look at frame data about him.

 

[C0rvus]

Like Shulk
Shame that people only look at frame data about him.

People would look at more if he had results. Or was played at all in prominent regions. Like, I have no idea what to think of Shulk.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What characters do well against Shiek, ZSS and Sonic? You can probably tell where I'm going with this...

Sheik is the queen of neutral state and ZSS is the queen of advantaged state. Both characters have insanely good disadvantaged states. Needless to say few characters that aren't top or high tier can handle that, not taking Sonic into the equation yet. For a character to fare reasonably well against both of them while still being mid tier or lower it'd take some insanely specific character properties. Kirby may be one of these characters [if you define -1 matchups as "doing well"] but, of course, he doesn't stand a chance to Sonic.

The rest depends on how you define "doing well".

 

[Jaguar360]

Hey now, same could be said for Greninja while we're at it. Lol

I understand the point and all, but it's not really the same thing tbh. iStudying's been doing awesome for months now, Gibus has Shockwave wins with Greninja, Venia's been consistently getting between 2nd and 5th at Nebulouses and Some has some Top 8 national placements here and there. It's just that iStudying's BEAST placement is the most significant of all and helps to finally confirm what some of us have been saying.

I guess it's not exactly true for Link either though since Link does have some prior results as Rizen said earlier.

 

[T4ylor]

E Eugene Wang Curious as to why you're lumping Dedede in there with Jigglypuff and Zelda when his results are more comparable to Kirby's. He's also repped pretty well outside of the states.

 

[Jalil]

I would say megaman isn't (solo) viable because of his sheik matchup being nearly unwinnable at high level but even tho shulk is obviously a worse character I think he's viable because all his bad matchups are doable. It's just like playing the game on hard. Where do yall cross the line at viable?

 

[Y2Kay]

Hey now, same could be said for Greninja while we're at it. Lol

STOP TRIGGERING ME.

I just wanna add on to this and say got THREE top 8 placings at big tournaments this weekend.

- Venia got 4th at nebolous (the one with Anti)
- istudying got 3rd at Avalon U-II
- Some got something in top 8 at Umebura(?)

Will people ignore these results anyway?

Yes.

Will people continue to say greninja has no results?

Also Yes.

Hey, but that's the messed up cycle that is 's life.

Hey guys, look! My prophecy kinda sorta came true!



EDIT: the main got 'd by another main

my head hurts

 

[Vipermoon]

Not to beat a dead horse, but if both of those mid tiers get slaughtered by sheik then you are just splitting your time when you are already disadvantaged.

Ive thought about this though, a jack of all trades player playing advantaged MU's as much as possible, thriving off of fundamentals and lack of MU knowledge. I certainly hope to see it some day, and we do see top players with high level pockets.

You are defining M2K. He has a Cloud but in eveyy other way, this is M2K.

 

[LancerStaff]

Sheik is the queen of neutral state and ZSS is the queen of advantaged state. Both characters have insanely good disadvantaged states. Needless to say few characters that aren't top or high tier can handle that, not taking Sonic into the equation yet. For a character to fare reasonably well against both of them while still being mid tier or lower it'd take some insanely specific character properties. Kirby may be one of these characters [if you define -1 matchups as "doing well"] but, of course, he doesn't stand a chance to Sonic.

The rest depends on how you define "doing well".

Didn't say it had to be mid tier or below. Like you said there's not a lot of character that are solid against just Shiek and ZSS in the first place.

Actually kinda hard to say since I'm terrible with MU ratios... I want to say "overall better then Pit does" but I doubt many of you have a grasp on how they usually go. Just not bad enough to where against those three it doesn't feels like a significant detriment to their ability to win tournaments, I guess.

 

[Y2Kay]

Using the official tier list as a guideline for "mid tier," I think anyone looking to dual main mid tiers and have a shot at doing well in big tournaments needs to play , since he's one of the only mid tiers who doesn't get completely routed by Sheik. He probably has the best Sheik MU out of all the mid tiers (and arguably has one of the best Sheik MUs period), and you really want to maximize this matchup considering Sheik disproportionate representation. After that, you'd need another character that can cover Lucario's worst matchups, which to my understanding are Cloud and ZSS. seems like he does fine in both those MUs, though IDK if another mid tier would cover those MUs better or cover Lucario's other bad MUs.

This is pretty much what I'm doing. and has pretty good synergy. Greninja does pretty well against the stock cleaners like

Greninja doesn't do that well against ............was what I thought before istudying beat Sodrek in decently convincing fashion in games 2 and 3. Along with the fact Some has beaten Shogun makes me believe his edgeguarding is strong enough to go even with him now.

It sucks I have to drop just so I can be able to beat one character. Sigh.....

 

[ReRaze]

This is pretty much what I'm doing. and has pretty good synergy. Greninja does pretty well against the stock cleaners like

Greninja doesn't do that well against ............was what I thought before istudying beat Sodrek in decently convincing fashion in games 2 and 3. Along with the fact Some has beaten Shogun makes me believe his edgeguarding is strong enough to go even with him now.

It sucks I have to drop just so I can be able to beat one character. Sigh.....

But Pit does well against shiek (imo).....
Like his fair beats Sheik's fair and bouncing fish when properly spaced.
He can outcamp her if he wants with fullhop arrows which have a faster firing rate than needles not to mention needles are a grounded projectile only. They are also lagless btw if used right (e.g you can airdodge instantly after firing an arrow)
She dies really early to upperdash/electroshock.
He does pretty well against her offstage and can afford to commit to a fast fall dair or something (e.g to punish bouncing fish) without worrying about not making it back to the ledge.
And he can break out of some of Shiek's ground combos using nair or jumping.
He can afford to jump away because he has multiple jumps, meaning he's not put into a bad position for losing his jump.
(I'm only listing Pit's positives since I'm pretty sure we all know shiek's)
edit:
Oh but I'm not saying he outright beats shiek.....

Also I hear mewtwo does ok against shiek but I'm not sure, can anyone give some insight?

 

[LancerStaff]

But Pit does well against shiek (imo).....
Like his fair beats Sheik's fair and bouncing fish when properly spaced.
He can outcamp her if he wants with fullhop arrows which have a faster firing rate than needles not to mention needles are a grounded projectile only. They are also lagless btw if used right (e.g you can airdodge instantly after firing an arrow)
She dies really early to upperdash/electroshock.
He does pretty well against her offstage and can afford to commit to a fast fall dair or something (e.g to punish bouncing fish) without worrying about not making it back to the ledge.
And he can break out of some of Shiek's ground combos using nair or jumping.
He can afford to jump away because he has multiple jumps, meaning he's not put into a bad position for losing his jump.
(I'm only listing Pit's positives since I'm pretty sure we all know shiek's)
edit:
Oh but I'm not saying he outright beats shiek.....

Mm, I'm not really sure what to think of Pit vs. Sheik. On paper Pit has a few ways to deal with Sheik's main tools, but I haven't really seen it come through in practice since I'm pretty sure she counters Earth's playstyle. Lylat's obviously a great pick against her though.

 

[ReRaze]

Mm, I'm not really sure what to think of Pit vs. Sheik. On paper Pit has a few ways to deal with Sheik's main tools, but I haven't really seen it come through in practice since I'm pretty sure she counters Earth's playstyle. Lylat's obviously a great pick against her though.

Tbh I feel earth is too patient which lets Shiek's weave in and out of his gameplay as they please.

 

[C0rvus]

Tfw you worked on a tier list for like 3 hours and you're about to post it but then you realize noone has any reason to care about your opinion.
Maybe I'll post it when it's more warranted, but with all the discussion on who is mid tier and who is top 20 it felt at least somewhat punctual. At this point in the game's lifespan, we have what is likely the final game, and character specialists don't want to hear their character is bad. Especially while certain "mid tiers" are getting notable results.
It's very hard to draw the line between the tiers. In many places, the gap is easy to see, but as you go down, how do you make the cuts? Someone has to be bottom tier, but even when I was making my list, characters I felt were there had PRed players in good regions, or like 1 standout result or player.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Greninja doesn't go even with Fox. Give it some time until counterplay envolves.

 

[Kofu]

Here's a question, is there a character that benefits far more from careful defensive play than always pressing the advantage? My initial thoughts were Sheik (even though she has an extremely strong pressure game), Villager (for his zoning prowess), and Bowser (huge grab and intimidating throw game, Whirling Fortress, heavy DPH). Characters with flexible or chargeable projectiles also seem like good candidates. Optimally said character's defense would have fundamentals that can transfer to other characters as well.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You know she gets back her side-b and up-b whenever she's hit right lol.

I actually forgot that, although if she's hit out of her double jump I'm pretty sure she can't play nearly as loose with her offstage game.

 

[Routa]

Here's a question, is there a character that benefits far more from careful defensive play than always pressing the advantage?

First character that came to my mind was Mii Gunner due to his/her/its very strong neutral and projectile game.

 

[HFlash]

Here's a question, is there a character that benefits far more from careful defensive play than always pressing the advantage? My initial thoughts were Sheik (even though she has an extremely strong pressure game), Villager (for his zoning prowess), and Bowser (huge grab and intimidating throw game, Whirling Fortress, heavy DPH). Characters with flexible or chargeable projectiles also seem like good candidates. Optimally said character's defense would have fundamentals that can transfer to other characters as well.

Cloud comes to mind. Regularly charging LB as sort of a "ticking time bomb" usually gets opponents to approach. You could just allow Cloud to charge it, but that has yet to be proven as the best strategy to deal with it. People underestimate how much Cloud can get off of grabs. 8% (plus 3 per pummel) and putting someone in a disadvantaged state stops opponents from just "holding shield to win." So, charging LB, and sort of mixing spaced moves with grabs seems to be a pretty good general game plan. There is no real reason for a cloud to just rush in although he does have the frame data to do so.

 

[ReRaze]

Tfw you worked on a tier list for like 3 hours and you're about to post it but then you realize noone has any reason to care about your opinion.
Maybe I'll post it when it's more warranted, but with all the discussion on who is mid tier and who is top 20 it felt at least somewhat punctual. At this point in the game's lifespan, we have what is likely the final game, and character specialists don't want to hear their character is bad. Especially while certain "mid tiers" are getting notable results.
It's very hard to draw the line between the tiers. In many places, the gap is easy to see, but as you go down, how do you make the cuts? Someone has to be bottom tier, but even when I was making my list, characters I felt were there had PRed players in good regions, or like 1 standout result or player.

What makes you think that all the characters are as developed as the will ever be i.e that we have the final game. (Correct me if I misunderstood though).

 

[LancerStaff]

Here's a question, is there a character that benefits far more from careful defensive play than always pressing the advantage? My initial thoughts were Sheik (even though she has an extremely strong pressure game), Villager (for his zoning prowess), and Bowser (huge grab and intimidating throw game, Whirling Fortress, heavy DPH). Characters with flexible or chargeable projectiles also seem like good candidates. Optimally said character's defense would have fundamentals that can transfer to other characters as well.

Pit, definitely. Like me and Xacer just said Earth plays defense to a fault. Also has a chargable not storable like I think you ment though and literally flexible projectile with a strong emphasis on fundamentals.