Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Vyrnx]

@LancerStaff
Bowser Jr's aerials are quite good and balanced. His up air is a god like aerial with endlag, landing lag, and auto cancel frames that rivals Luigi's aerials. His nair is a good combo breaker with good startup, good initial and final auto cancel frames, and low landing lag. and his dair is a nice multihit aerial with a landing hitbox that can catch people dropping shield. His bair has a surprising amount of initial autocancel frames that rival kirby's dair (1-11 frames for Bowser Jr's bair; 1-17 frames for Kirby's dair). His jab 1 comes out on frame 4 and ends at frame 20, which rivals Luigi's jab 1 and jab 2.His jab is great for jab mixups and jab cancels into grabs, etc.

At frame 7 startup, Jr's nair is not great at combo breaking, has bad autocancel frames, and has not so great landing lag (18). It is not a very good move. And Jr's jab does NOT rival Luigi's at all lol. Not that I disagree with the rest of what you're saying though.

 

[R3D3MON]

Vyrnx
Its frame 4 startup with FAF of 20. Luigi has frame 2 startup with FAF of 19. I agree Luigi's is still better but Bowser Jr's jab 1 is still quite good as a jab cancel move and mixup option, especially compared to some other character's jabs. Tweek makes good use of it all the time.

I do change my mind on nair tho. I agree that the FAF frame on nair is too big for it to be particularly great of a move. Sorry for the misjudgment.

 

[ReRaze]

But they have glaring flaws such as shorter range on some attacks, weak damage on their attacks, some attacks being very punishable on block (F-Air, F-Smash, D-Smash, F-Spec and U-Smash being examples), and despite their good speed, their air speed isn't that good, and their recoveries are easily gimpable with a meteor or attack. I forgot to mention that some attacks are unsafe to use in general (D-Spec vs non-projectile characters in general due to its ending lag and U-Spec if the Pits land on stage close to their opponent).

They can't reliably play in the air against opponents like Link, because Link can just catch up with them and use his more-disjointed attacks, for example. All of the sword fighters have no trouble keeping up with the Pits if they try air games vs the grounded fighters.

However, they do have some great edge-guarding ability and gimping ability to them, especially on Ness. That plus the other positives would make the Pits seem upper middle, maybe. But they're no high tier.

Fair is safe on block unless for some reason the pit decided to land right in the opponents face without even autocancelling it. Wih multiple jumps its not hard to recover using our super armoured side b or feint against the opponent.
Why would a Pit ever use D-special against a character with no projectile unless to protect himself in the air which mind you pushes the opponent away keeping him safe.

This is why I don't play in the air against Link, I play a grounded game. the Pit's have a really fast, disjointed to dash attack as well as a good grab game. I'm not gonna try and outspace Shulk with Pit similiarly I won't try and outspace Link.

I'm not gonna comment on their tier placement because right now anything below top tier is hard to define with the lack of representation.

But you have characters like Link, Ike, Bowser, D3, Villager and Marth, to name a few, who can just beat the Pits' aerials. And because the Pits have no hitbox on that Up B, if they so much as try recovering up stage as their last option, they're probably dead through meteors or stage spiking. But it's also beautiful to see Mario or Doc reverse them with Cape and Super Sheet.

And the Orbitars are not only for certain situations, but they're not safe to use above opponents; some opponents will hit them out from below.

As I said before it's better to play a grounded game against these characters or camp them. In bowser and DDD's case they get juggled hard.

@LancerStaff And with Ganondorf beating Pit's side B, it takes dedication for Ganondorf players to go to the same elevation as Pits and Flame Choke them. Other than that, he does have an attack that comes out F14 (F-Air), slamming forward around F16. Same nearly goes with Link, Ike and company, who have F-Airs that wait out the Pits' F-Spec. Like you said, Armor lasts around 15 frames, so if, for example, Link's F14 F-Air's first hit doesn't knock them back, the second hit will.

Both of Links fair hits wont land in the distance it takes for the side b to sweetspot the ledge. Besides its risky, what if i decide to dodge and punish you instead then it is safe to up b back and you are at a disadvantage. Ganondorf and Link don't exactly have commitment free fairs like shiek.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

The first issue is why working on MALLCs is the most important part for any Shulk main.

The second issue is straight up misinformation, Shulk can sweet spot the ledge during the early frames of air slash just like Cloud.


Two of the biggest things people forget to mention regarding Shulk is that:

1. Buster aerials do really good shield stun.

2. Speed Nair is pretty much unpunishable if you space well.

It's not misinformation. When we say that Cloud/Shulk/Little Mac can't sweetspot the ledge, them being able to if they happen to already be incredibly close to the ledge (to the point where they could just grab it if they didnt use the special) doesn't change the fact that in every other instance, especially what you would see far more in normal play, they shoot past the ledge.

The problem with MALLC is that they can be predictable, which lends to the Shulk doing great against people who are unfamiliar with him. Because you need to activate the art at certain times of your jump (and even if you activate it unoptimally, everyone has their pattern. Full hop MALLCs leave you with lots of dead air, Shorthop MALLCs are hard to do unless you're choosing Jump or Speed simply because of the button presses, Fast fall MALLCs dont leave you time to adjust if the opponent chooses to do something.

All of the MALLCs bank on someone not trying to attack Shulk in midair (Shulk, the man who takes 16+ frames to put any hitbox in front of him in the air.), or dropping shield between the hits because they dont realize he's MALLCing. Not to mention that hitting a shield or not hitting one changes the timing of the MALLC.

MALLC is good, but I'd rather just have a fair that SH autocanceled.

Yes, crossup/pass through speed nair is hard to punish. But you wont be in a position for any guaranteed followups if they do shield if you're far enough away, because the landing lag stops you for a moment regardless. If you do hit them with it, you'll unfortunatelu often be hitting them with the blade part - the sourspot on nair in speed mode. That's 6% damage.

 

[ReRaze]

IMO Pit is good. The thing is Pit is great in about 1 of the 3 states of fighting games. Luckily, it's probably the most important of the 3: his disadvantage. In a negative state, Pit could jump away, run away, play keep away with arrows, and could try to surprise someone with side b. Pit's neutral is pretty average, with meh tilts, a decent jab, great dsmash, decent usmash, bad fsmash. His advantage makes me laugh because with his lowish damage output, lack of power, and meh combo game, means a long and drawn out game of cat and mouse. I used to play Pit in Brawl and played Dank Pit in this game and came to the same conclusion of saying "he's so close to being fantastic, but he ain't".

You're the first person I've heard say Pit's neutral is average, what makes you say that?

Lowish damage output/Combo game?
Dair combos do on average 25+ each, Dair is an OoS option. You could also get Dair of a grab at low - mid percents. Now add in some footstool dairs into the equation and you can easily find yourself from 0 to over 50% off one grab. Even without dair combos Pit's starting combos all do around 20% each
Dthrow = 6% + Dair (Footstool) = 16% + Dair (lock) = 25% + Dair (Footstool) = 37% + Dair (lock) = 44% + Dair = 51% + Dair = 58% + Nair/Uair/Bair = 68-70%. Oh that looks like kill range for some characters with the electroshock.
(Mind you Pit can go for more footstool resets but 2 is optimal because for some characters with much faster air speeds, they are able to DI away before pit can reach them when the footstool resets start happening higher in the air).
This works on pretty much the entire cast except extremely fast fallers like fox and captain falcon, but even then I could go for the fthrow > dair option which if they miss the tech they get hit and if they tech they get hit anyway and are popped up for a followup. This can easily lead to around 40% off one grab.
If you want video proof just let me know.

Lack of power?
The electroshock says hi~. (Although since you main a really heavy character it might not be as obvious for you but think about how it feels for the other characters in the cast dying at 80% or less). Besides one of Pit's main way of killing is offstsge....and kills here are often at quite low percents.

Also could you describe Pit's advantage state? Why do you think it is bad?

You say you played Dark Pit but you probably played him at a time where everything was just dthrow uair. That's not how it is now.

 

[FullMoon]

Pit's D-Air is an OoS option? Counting jumpsquat and start-up it's frame 15, that's slower than Greninja's standing grab. That sounds pretty terrible for an OoS option.

 

[Y2Kay]

OOS Dair isn't bad. If you're using it to beat rolls and such, nair OOS is better for that. Dair OOS shield can beat rolls, similar to Lucario's Dair OOS but not as good.

If you can catch your opponent off guard with it, you can do some pretty sweet combos. Definitely worth trying in battle.

 

[Spinosaurus]

OOS moves are supposed to make you threatening in shield. Frame 15 is really slow for that, you're not gonna really punish people hitting your shield with it.

 

[Y2Kay]

OOS moves are supposed to make you threatening in shield. Frame 15 is really slow for that, you're not gonna really punish people hitting your shield with it.

I know. My point is you don't use it like a regular OOS move. It's purpose is to catch rolls and punish people for trying to shark you underneath platforms. Just because it doesn't follow the same use as say, Doc's up B OOS, doesn't mean it's terrible.

 

[ReRaze]

Besides grab/nair to dair is a thing anyway. Grab, nair and usmash would be the primary OoS options i.e for normal punishes but like Y2Kay said Dair OoS is generally used if you are in shield and read a roll or something since it covers both sides and below pit, not just for reading a roll too but if an oppnent approaches you expecting a defensive maneuver such as a roll, Dair is a great mixup in that situation.

 

[Kofu]

Pit's DAir is good as a mixup option for the same reason Diddy's and Brawler's DAirs are good: they have a meteor effect that can set up for devastating combos. Sure, you can tech the meteor effect, but used optimally it'll be unexpected enough that you can reap the rewards.

They also all easily autocancel, kind of a big deal.

 

[ReRaze]

Pit's DAir is good as a mixup option for the same reason Diddy's and Brawler's DAirs are good: they have a meteor effect that can set up for devastating combos. Sure, you can tech the meteor effect, but used optimally it'll be unexpected enough that you can reap the rewards.

They also all easily autocancel, kind of a big deal.

It's also a great kill setup, the meteor, since a full hop dair will true combo into uair which true comboes into usmash. You can get away relatively safely for throwing out a full hop dair on someone since if they roll away or shield they can't normally punish.

 

[C0rvus]

Pit's DAir is good as a mixup option for the same reason Diddy's and Brawler's DAirs are good: they have a meteor effect that can set up for devastating combos. Sure, you can tech the meteor effect, but used optimally it'll be unexpected enough that you can reap the rewards.

They also all easily autocancel, kind of a big deal.

Duck Hunt's too. It even SH autocancels.

 

[Tri Knight]

@Radical Larry
Yeah I actually answered my own question after I asked that.l

It's not misinformation. When we say that Cloud/Shulk/Little Mac can't sweetspot the ledge, them being able to if they happen to already be incredibly close to the ledge (to the point where they could just grab it if they didnt use the special) doesn't change the fact that in every other instance, especially what you would see far more in normal play, they shoot past the ledge.

The problem with MALLC is that they can be predictable, which lends to the Shulk doing great against people who are unfamiliar with him. Because you need to activate the art at certain times of your jump (and even if you activate it unoptimally, everyone has their pattern. Full hop MALLCs leave you with lots of dead air, Shorthop MALLCs are hard to do unless you're choosing Jump or Speed simply because of the button presses, Fast fall MALLCs dont leave you time to adjust if the opponent chooses to do something.

All of the MALLCs bank on someone not trying to attack Shulk in midair (Shulk, the man who takes 16+ frames to put any hitbox in front of him in the air.), or dropping shield between the hits because they dont realize he's MALLCing. Not to mention that hitting a shield or not hitting one changes the timing of the MALLC.

MALLC is good, but I'd rather just have a fair that SH autocanceled.

Yes, crossup/pass through speed nair is hard to punish. But you wont be in a position for any guaranteed followups if they do shield if you're far enough away, because the landing lag stops you for a moment regardless. If you do hit them with it, you'll unfortunatelu often be hitting them with the blade part - the sourspot on nair in speed mode. That's 6% damage.

Funny enough, Cloud's Braver (second part of Up-B) actually does ledge snap if Cloud is at or above the ledge itself.

 

[UberMadman]

Vyrnx
Its frame 4 startup with FAF of 20. Luigi has frame 2 startup with FAF of 19. I agree Luigi's is still better but Bowser Jr's jab 1 is still quite good as a jab cancel move and mixup option, especially compared to some other character's jabs. Tweek makes good use of it all the time.

As a Bowser Jr. main, let me correct you here: Bowser Jr.'s jab is absolutely terrible. Jab 1 does not inflict enough hitstun for it to be good, (3 damage 10 BKB 50 KBG is punishable on hit at some percents,) jab 2 is unusable due to FAF of 40, (WHYYYYY,) and his pummel is outright non-functional above 30% or so. Bowser Jr.'s jab is his downtilt, the a button is exclusively for taunts.

 

[Megamang]

Actually, Diddy's dair (and probably Brawlers with the right size conditions, I don't know) will also auto cancel from a SH. I was pretty shocked when I tried it with Diddy, and im surprised I don't see it off trip mixups more. I guess the guaranteed damage is too good to pass up in most situations.

The problem with all these special snaps that happen when you are closing in on the edge anyways is that they don't come through when you really need them. If you get into a scrappy situation with a character with scary edgeguarding and a good d-smash or counter, you'll miss the easy snap that most of the cast has.

Checking out some Bowjr frame data, the frame 4 dtilt at 8 damage is pretty good. I had no idea it came out that fast. Being multi hit is nice in some situations, but if you whiff it having a FAF of 41 is meh compared to most dtilts.

A nice way they've balanced the cast in this iteration is useful shield pokes in the form of dtilts for most of the cast. For characters with really slow or committal dtilts, they usually have a solid jab or f-tilt which serves the purpose, while their dtilt has some other, useful function. The first example I can think of is Bowser, where the ftilt is the nice ranged poke while dtilt would work like a smash in most character's kits, and a good one at that.

Are there characters without good poke tools? Zelda's tilts are lackluster in my experience, but her jab is actually really useful, and her fsmash is really safe for its power.

 

[R3D3MON]

UberMadman
Ty for correcting my mistake. Was not taking into account damage and hitstun. If you accidentally jab with Bowser Jr, should you just get to the rapid jab as fast as you can?

 

[Megamang]

I think that depends on damage level. At high damage the first jab pops them up enough for relative safety as a mixup, while the rapid jab is really easy to escape. At low damage the opposite is true, rapid jab is gonna save you from jab 1 punishment. And while it is really escapable, it has a really good damage output. Its nice if you catch someone's face during an attempted ledge hop aerial, since they'll be right in the thick of it and you can release it when you see SDI, popping them offstage again.

R3D3MON , your avatar reminded me of some things. For lackluster d-tilts we have the Mario bros, though this extends to their non-smash ground game. Luigi also has an amazing jab, while Mario has Smashes with his strong mobility which are useful in some situations but nonetheless don't serve as safe pokes. Which is nice, because safe pokes out of Mario's nair or bair would be really powerful.

 

[Y2Kay]

UberMadman
Ty for correcting my mistake. Was not taking into account damage and hitstun. If you accidentally jab with Bowser Jr, should you just get to the rapid jab as fast as you can?

If it's as bad as he says, which I trust him on, you probably shouldn't be using jab in the first place

 

[G. Stache]

R3D3MON , your avatar reminded me of some things. For lackluster d-tilts we have the Mario bros, though this extends to their non-smash ground game. Luigi also has an amazing jab, while Mario has Smashes with his strong mobility which are useful in some situations but nonetheless don't serve as safe pokes. Which is nice, because safe pokes out of Mario's nair or bair would be really powerful.

Mario's d tilt is actually a decent combo starter at certain percents iirc. Luigi's d tilt is just happy to be here and practically says "lol, just use d smash, bud" whenever you use it. Used to be good at starting combos at early percents until Sakurai gave that certain quality the boot in an early patch. Great at jab locking the opponent at low percents if fireballs/jab 1 is getting to mundane to you and you wanna see Luigi awkwardly kick someone few times. So I guess it isn't totally neglected. Not sure about safe pokes on Mario, but Luigi has a safe Bair and retreating Nair I believe (that or pretty close to it) as long as it's not power shielded. F smash might also be safe on normal shield as well, but I really don't use that move a whole lot. Should test that at some point. I know f smash actually provides decent shield pressure, so I'd imagine it's at least somewhat usable as a shield poke.

One more thing, if you shield against a Luigi's jab, you're risking a grab from him. So while jab itself isn't safe, it can certainly lead to better things whilst providing a reason for the opponent to stay in shield.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

As a Bowser Jr. main, let me correct you here: Bowser Jr.'s jab is absolutely terrible. Jab 1 does not inflict enough hitstun for it to be good, (3 damage 10 BKB 50 KBG is punishable on hit at some percents,) jab 2 is unusable due to FAF of 40, (WHYYYYY,) and his pummel is outright non-functional above 30% or so. Bowser Jr.'s jab is his downtilt, the a button is exclusively for taunts.

I completely agree with this 100%. Bowser Jr's jab combo is god awful. And like he said, dtilt is superior in most instances.

Honestly, Bowser Jr would be more viable if it weren't for his jab. (And his slow grab)

 

[C0rvus]

Tweek uses just jab 1 to check shields and as a mixup. It can only really be used if you've conditioned your opponent, though. It's also great for jab locking as well. The rapid part is terrible though, no one is arguing that.

 

[UberMadman]

UberMadman
Ty for correcting my mistake. Was not taking into account damage and hitstun. If you accidentally jab with Bowser Jr, should you just get to the rapid jab as fast as you can?

Usually, yeah, since the opponent will probably just jump out of the pummel. I'm pretty sure they can SDI down and away and then just shield the final hit though, in which case you're boned; mash down-tilt and hope they're sloppy on their punish.

 

[Mario766]

I was going to say frame 4 with a FAF of 20 is actually really good as it's only 3 frames more than Brawl Ike Jab, but the 10 BKB kills it.

So close, yet so far away.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I'll be honest, I see nothing special about the Pits in comparison to the characters around them in the tier list. If our proposed meta is about kill confirms, and how efficient they are at getting the job done? What are the Pits' primary ways of killing? Anything that sets up into those kill options? They're certainly good, but I honestly don't see them as better than the likes of Ike, Greninja, Toon Link, or ROB. I see them dropping slightly in the future, but not out of Mid Tier, and not very close to the bottom of it either.

So who else do you guys see dropping in the future? Of those in High and Mid Tier, I see Pikachu, Mario, Yoshi, Luigi, Pits, Wario, Pac Man, and Bowser dropping, but to where exactly I'm not so sure. Bottom of Mid for most I suppose?
And who else do you see rising in the future? What are your thoughts?

 

[Megamang]

It feels like Yoshi should have a kill confirm off of either eggs, egg lay, or weak hit nair ->usmash. He has the mario esque version of an usmash, with invincible feet. That was a huge ***** to deal with as pikachu, but not so much with my more ranged mains. Then again, yoshi has always looked great on paper but underperformed. Its a shame ESAM didn't bring the character into a new golden age, but its so hard to get certain things to work for the dinosaur. His command grab works best defensively or on an overshielding opponent, both of which we don't see as much at top level so... yea. I think more SHAD could have helped, but armchair playing is my specialty.

Doesn't dair confirm a kill for the Pits if you miss a tech? Otherwise, they are good at juggling which forces opponents into the effective range of their f-throws. I mean, I think when we say kill confirms rule the meta, we also mean kill throws which serve the same purpose. Unfortunately the pits have a situational kill throw that happens to be meh in power, and while they are decent at surviving they aren't quite heavy enough to be rage monsters. Perhaps their great recovery as well as solid disjoint and multiple jumps means they could survive longer, but again other kill confirms are so prevalent that they don't often see 130%.

 

[Mario766]

Yoshi would have kill confirms if his kit flowed well together, but his kit is a big mess of things thrown together.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'll be honest, I see nothing special about the Pits in comparison to the characters around them in the tier list. If our proposed meta is about kill confirms, and how efficient they are at getting the job done? What are the Pits' primary ways of killing? Anything that sets up into those kill options? They're certainly good, but I honestly don't see them as better than the likes of Ike, Greninja, Toon Link, or ROB. I see them dropping slightly in the future, but not out of Mid Tier, and not very close to the bottom of it either.

So who else do you guys see dropping in the future? Of those in High and Mid Tier, I see Pikachu, Mario, Yoshi, Luigi, Pits, Wario, Pac Man, and Bowser dropping, but to where exactly I'm not so sure. Bottom of Mid for most I suppose?
And who else do you see rising in the future? What are your thoughts?

Pit kills mostly with Fthrow, Smashes, and edgeguarding. Dark Pit gets Electroshock Arm on top of that. Really the Pits are where they're thought to be because they're strong at everything except getting the kill, and even there they're not terrible even if they're also not great. Pit is definitely better than ROB, probably better than Greninja and Toon Link, and probably about as good as Ike, maybe slightly weaker after the most recent patch.

 

[Megamang]

ROB has crazy comeback ability with the Beep Boop, and his ledgetraps and camping game is pretty strong, and his nair zones super hard. I personally fear ROB more than Pit, but thats mostly because of the consistency of his throw game being deadly, and it only getting deadlier as you try and close out the game. Plus the gyro is annoying as hell to deal with, and sets up a lot more than arrows. True, I haven't ever played a very good Pit, while skilled ROBs populate the ladder and my local scene. That uair though, its so annoying to properly DI because it knocks you opposite the direction you are holding, so if you don't time your switchup perfectly, you DI straight up and die really early. I can also avoid usmash landing stuff with the top platforms or smashville/TaC platforms, while ROB stays deady until you land. Plus while his landing traps aren't as speedy, the landing trap shieldgrab is enough to throw you into the death situation again. I do like when he tries to ledgetrap and I just Witch Time the top though, heh.

Anyways, I always felt the biggest issue that Yoshi has is pretty bad hurtbox shifting. His hitboxes seem ridiculous, but even a decent disjoint or properly timed trade can ruin his day. Landing uair as megaman puts in lots of work in the MU when his dumb dino head reaches forward and it pulls him up for a 40%+ string.

 

[bc1910]

Pit kills mostly with Fthrow, Smashes, and edgeguarding. Dark Pit gets Electroshock Arm on top of that. Really the Pits are where they're thought to be because they're strong at everything except getting the kill, and even there they're not terrible even if they're also not great. Pit is definitely better than ROB, probably better than Greninja and Toon Link, and probably about as good as Ike, maybe slightly weaker after the most recent patch.

This implies Ike is better than Greninja and Toon Link which is highly debatable. TL in particular has far better results.

 

[ReRaze]

I'll be honest, I see nothing special about the Pits in comparison to the characters around them in the tier list. If our proposed meta is about kill confirms, and how efficient they are at getting the job done? What are the Pits' primary ways of killing? Anything that sets up into those kill options? They're certainly good, but I honestly don't see them as better than the likes of Ike, Greninja, Toon Link, or ROB. I see them dropping slightly in the future, but not out of Mid Tier, and not very close to the bottom of it either.

So who else do you guys see dropping in the future? Of those in High and Mid Tier, I see Pikachu, Mario, Yoshi, Luigi, Pits, Wario, Pac Man, and Bowser dropping, but to where exactly I'm not so sure. Bottom of Mid for most I suppose?
And who else do you see rising in the future? What are your thoughts?

I agree Pit's are slowly becoming irrelevant but it's moreso due to a lack of people backing the character in terms of meta development and competitive play and less of the character being bad imo. Like how many notable Pit mains can you name? It's just as Megamang says, you don't see Pit nearly enough to decide whether he is a threat or not.

Primary ways of killing are offstage, fthrow, usmash and the arms. There aren't many setups, nair > usmash/dsmash works at kill percents. Dair and Uair also lead into usmash. Dair can also lead to a bair or multiple dairs > bair for some early kills near the ledge (by early I mean 30-40%). But other than that most of his kills are 'honest' in a sense. Though that doesn't mean things don't get ugly if I were to delve into his offstage game and the electroshock arm

How to decide who else is becoming irrelevant in the meta? try this, name as many smash 4 characters as you can and the last few you can think of are probably your best candidates, anyone you forgot is already irrelevant

Doesn't dair confirm a kill for the Pits if you miss a tech? Otherwise, they are good at juggling which forces opponents into the effective range of their f-throws. I mean, I think when we say kill confirms rule the meta, we also mean kill throws which serve the same purpose. Unfortunately the pits have a situational kill throw that happens to be meh in power, and while they are decent at surviving they aren't quite heavy enough to be rage monsters. Perhaps their great recovery as well as solid disjoint and multiple jumps means they could survive longer, but again other kill confirms are so prevalent that they don't often see 130%.

Well look at it this way, characters with good recoveries are generally light, they die to a fresh fthrow generally around the 100% mark which is fairly strong. On the other heavies have bad recoveries so even if fthrow doesnt kill it will generally gimp or lead to a gimp quite easily. You'd be surprised at how often Pit can live up to higher percents if they decide to play defensive. Just watch some Nairo and Earth vids (although Nairo vids are kinda outdated).

Pit kills mostly with Fthrow, Smashes, and edgeguarding. Dark Pit gets Electroshock Arm on top of that. Really the Pits are where they're thought to be because they're strong at everything except getting the kill, and even there they're not terrible even if they're also not great. Pit is definitely better than ROB, probably better than Greninja and Toon Link, and probably about as good as Ike, maybe slightly weaker after the most recent patch.

I don't think Ike is better than any of those characters, imo the only reason he looks so good is when you compare him to the other FE characters. I'm pretty sure his recovery is too big of a weakness especially against characters with wind boxes like Pit and Greninja. His grab game is good but not the best especially not with mobility like his. Sure he's got great disjoints but what's a sword to a transcendant laser camping ROB or even Toonlink can just run circles around him throwing projectiles all day with the speed Ike has.

Then again I haven't played many amazing ikes so if anyone would like to enlighten me im all ears, alot of this thread is purely impressions and opinions and since not everyone experiences the same things there may be hints of bias. That applies to my posts as well but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ what can ya do, when speculating about tier placements or a chars viability it is hard to avoid these types of things or get clear cut answers about characters who don't have a plethora of solid results e.g shiek.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Are there characters without good poke tools? Zelda's tilts are lackluster in my experience, but her jab is actually really useful, and her fsmash is really safe for its power.

If you mean for poking, her Dtilt is okish....Ftilt is eh.....Utilt not really.

If you mean overall, then only her Ftilt is lackluster as a tilt, the other 2 are actually pretty good.

But yea her jab isn't actually that bad at even frame 11, I like it honestly(doesnt mean it can't be faster.)
Her Fsmash yea, good shield push back and trapping capabilities.

She has a few good moves, several eh.

 

[Megamang]

Ike has confirms out the ass now. Nair, dtilt, and grab all lead to heavy damage. He has a really great jab for a sword character. His grab being that good really, really helps since it makes his threatening range really scary as he swings a giant sword you aren't safe in your shield either. His throws lead to killing aerials and all kinds of deadly 50/50s, and these get better as he abuses his throw combos as stale throws confirm for longer. Once he is in rage, sure his kill confirms stop working but they are still brutal traps. And not to soon after that, in high rage his utilt and ftilt start killing which is insane for their safety speed and range. Speaking of range, his Fair is freakin huge now.. and apparently will continue getting bigger every patch until it reaches across Battlefield then Japan will start utilizing him >_<


His gimpability is there, but he makes up for that by trapping at the ledge very very well. Once he grabs you, nairs you, or dtilts you for 25%, you have to worry about landing since those confirms work well to catch landings and continue his dominance. And if the Ike executes well, he can murder you at the ledge with Eruption against probably more characters than Pit can gimp efficiently.

Ike also has an advantage against Sonic, who im pretty sure is one of Pit's worst MUs. His disjoint is bigger, his grab scarier, and his confirms hit harder. Grabs near the ledge are super deadly. He is just scary. I don't play Ike, just against low level ikes in my house, so if I missed anything then let me know. Ike has the things we know to be great in this meta, and his walling ability only got better recently. I wish Ikes traveled more.

 

[ReRaze]

Ike has confirms out the *** now. Nair, dtilt, and grab all lead to heavy damage. He has a really great jab for a sword character. His grab being that good really, really helps since it makes his threatening range really scary as he swings a giant sword you aren't safe in your shield either. His throws lead to killing aerials and all kinds of deadly 50/50s, and these get better as he abuses his throw combos as stale throws confirm for longer. Once he is in rage, sure his kill confirms stop working but they are still brutal traps. And not to soon after that, in high rage his utilt and ftilt start killing which is insane for their safety speed and range. Speaking of range, his Fair is freakin huge now.. and apparently will continue getting bigger every patch until it reaches across Battlefield then Japan will start utilizing him >_<


His gimpability is there, but he makes up for that by trapping at the ledge very very well. Once he grabs you, nairs you, or dtilts you for 25%, you have to worry about landing since those confirms work well to catch landings and continue his dominance. And if the Ike executes well, he can murder you at the ledge with Eruption against probably more characters than Pit can gimp efficiently.

Ike also has an advantage against Sonic, who im pretty sure is one of Pit's worst MUs. His disjoint is bigger, his grab scarier, and his confirms hit harder. Grabs near the ledge are super deadly. He is just scary. I don't play Ike, just against low level ikes in my house, so if I missed anything then let me know. Ike has the things we know to be great in this meta, and his walling ability only got better recently. I wish Ikes traveled more.

Well then I stand corrected, I guess I undermined his good points, but still how do those things help him deal with characters like Rob and Toon Link I just can't see it, especially in Toon Links case all I see is an Ike getting bombarded by projectiles while he tries to get in. He's scary sure but thats why you stay away from his sword :X until you find an opening, like I said he's not exactly fast.

Also yeah I think Sonic is bad news for Pit.

 

[predator_21476]

Well then I stand corrected, I guess I undermined his good points, but still how do those things help him deal with characters like Rob and Toon Link I just can't see it, especially in Toon Links case all I see is an Ike getting bombarded by projectiles while he tries to get in. He's scary sure but thats why you stay away from his sword :X until you find an opening, like I said he's not exactly fast.

Also yeah I think Sonic is bad news for Pit.

Specifically watch ryo vs 8bitman if you want to see Ike vs rob. Those Sets were very close and it showed tech that Ike can use to fight rob. I don't know about toon link vs Ike though.
Edit: link
https://youtu.be/pwB1DtdssJs

 

[L9999]

I'll be honest, I see nothing special about the Pits in comparison to the characters around them in the tier list. If our proposed meta is about kill confirms, and how efficient they are at getting the job done? What are the Pits' primary ways of killing? Anything that sets up into those kill options? They're certainly good, but I honestly don't see them as better than the likes of Ike, Greninja, Toon Link, or ROB. I see them dropping slightly in the future, but not out of Mid Tier, and not very close to the bottom of it either.

So who else do you guys see dropping in the future? Of those in High and Mid Tier, I see Pikachu, Mario, Yoshi, Luigi, Pits, Wario, Pac Man, and Bowser dropping, but to where exactly I'm not so sure. Bottom of Mid for most I suppose?
And who else do you see rising in the future? What are your thoughts?

Of the current tier list:
Rise:
Drop:
Already dropped like bricks but will likely drop anyway: (RIP early Abadango) (I know he is low tier, but he is 1 spot to mid tier and he is overrated).
Potential to rise to mid tier, not enough proof:
Anything goes:


IMO C tier will cease to exist and the best of B go to A and the best of D go to B.

 

[R3D3MON]

Megamang
Yeah Luigi's d-tilt is a very questionable move. Sakurai really wanted it to be reverted back to its melee form I guess.
Mario's nair is actually a pretty good poking tool if you drift with it. Also very good for shield cross-ups due to Mario's mobility, unlike Luigi. His bair is also melee Luigi bair reincarnate, where it has very low cooldown, landing lag, and excellent autocancel frames. Mario's bair is a much better tool for poking in general than Luigi since Mario can weave in and out. Luigi's bair is however a K.O move, so it can garner you some surprise K.O.s if your opponent miss-spaces attacks or they don't see it coming and drop their shield. On this note, Dr Mario's bair is probably the best bair out of the three Mario bros since his has the properties of Mario's bair and the kill power of Luigi's bair.

@G.Stache
From what I understand Mario's f-smash is not safe on shield due to its higher startup and longer cooldown compared to Luigi's f-smash. I see f-smash as a very nice punish tool after baiting a reaction mostly. Ally does this all the time, and even took a very close game off of 6WX in Paragon using this strategy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPWyLy9uCWU

 

[Spinosaurus]

Already dropped like bricks but will likely drop anyway: (RIP early Abadango) .

What did Abadango do for Wario?

 

[C0rvus]

Exist, mostly.

 

[G. Stache]

Megamang
Yeah Luigi's d-tilt is a very questionable move. Sakurai really wanted it to be reverted back to its melee form I guess.
Mario's nair is actually a pretty good poking tool if you drift with it. Also very good for shield cross-ups due to Mario's mobility, unlike Luigi. His bair is also melee Luigi bair reincarnate, where it has very low cooldown, landing lag, and excellent autocancel frames. Mario's bair is a much better tool for poking in general than Luigi since Mario can weave in and out. Luigi's bair is however a K.O move, so it can garner you some surprise K.O.s if your opponent miss-spaces attacks or they don't see it coming and drop their shield. On this note, Dr Mario's bair is probably the best bair out of the three Mario bros since his has the properties of Mario's bair and the kill power of Luigi's bair.

@G.Stache
From what I understand Mario's f-smash is not safe on shield due to its higher startup and longer cooldown compared to Luigi's f-smash. I see f-smash as a very nice punish tool after baiting a reaction mostly. Ally does this all the time, and even took a very close game off of 6WX in Paragon using this strategy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPWyLy9uCWU

Keep in mind that Luigi's pokes aren't generally safe by standard definition, besides things like f smash and Bair. They're 'safe' because you can hit their shield quickly and encourage them to drop their shield to get hit by another quick move, or pressure them to stay in shield so you can score a grab. Jab, SH Dair and SH Fair all accomplish this. You don't really poke at their shield with Luigi: you prod at it in a way that makes the opponent feel that they can punish/stay in shield and you capitalize. You don't force a mistake from the opponent, you encourage it (if that makes any sense). That, along with grab, is one of the reasons I think Luigi's shield pressure is surprisingly great. It's a guessing game, sure, but it it's one that's always tipped in Luigi's favor. That's, at least, how I go around with dealing with shields. I've seen other players do other things, so do what feels best for you.

Also: I always thought Mario's sweetspotted f smash was safe on shield. Huh, that's probably because I use Luigi, as his traction feels like he's using banana peels for shoes