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If there's anything G&W mains can push it's his edgeguarding. B-air hitlag makes stage spikes difficult to tech, and it lasts a nice duration along with f-air and n-air. Chef seems underappreciated to me (especially b-reversed/wavebounced in the drop zone as a sort of meat net) along with d-tilt. He has one of the best and risk free d-airs for going deep, and his up-b can snag people when you come back up.
And on that note, his up-b has that nice intangibility/windbox on startup (F2) that has already been demonstrated to trump Bayonetta's combos, so it's gotta have application in less tight juggles as well.
I think it's not bc he has hidden potential, more so to reflect that his placement is a point of contestion. Some people put him p much where the BR has put him in F, while others, including G&W mains, would put him in mid/high E, some maybe even low D. There's just not a lot of evidence and info out there to make arguments for the character.
Most active G&W mains will tell you that he beats the majority of the cast, and loses to barely any mid-low characters outside of a couple anomalies like DHD (and Bowser, depending on where you put him). One thing we DO have evidence of with Regi vs Esam vids is G&W being able to contest Pikachu, maybe even having a slight advantage against pika. It can also be argued G&W has a slight edge on Mario and Luigi, being able to contest their neutral and recovery games, and Ness, having a workable neutral against him and reliable gimp option in using the Up B windbox. Arguments could also be made for G&W being able to hold his own against relevant characters like Meta Knight (bair surprisingly effective in neutral, one of the few characters that dthrow-uair is actually a reliable kill option), Villager (see Regi vs Ranai, kind of debatable tho since Ranai got careless with lloid rockets), Ryu (mostly theorycraft, Ryu seems to have issues with disjoints, G&W more or less invalidates focus attack as a landing option, somewhat vulnerable recovery), possibly ZSS (almost purely out of crouch and bucket jank), but all in all we lack top players making evidence for this.
Going back to what you said, you are definitely right in that G&W is stagnating. With laggy moves, there's not much to be explored. Pre-shieldstun patch I would've told you G&W belongs in middle/upper-middle but the shieldstun patch made already abysmal MUs worse (Sonic, Fox, Diddy, Sheik are prime examples) and continued buffs to other characters while G&W receives nothing does not spell a good future for the character's advancement. With how everything has been developed and continues to develop I'd say G&W finds his place in low mid (E, bottom of D at best top of F at worst)
Which mains are you talking to? I honestly can't see him beating a majority of the cast, not against people with MU knowledge.
This'll be sketchy but a list of characters he almost certainly beats: (probably, got no MU experiencd for Gunner).
There are others that he probably beats but he's light enough and has such a weak neutral that his MUs tend to be extremely volatile. He combos heavies for days but has a hard time sealing the stock without edgeguarding. He gets combined fairly bad himself by characters with strong frame data. Fire's frame 2 windbox is handy but I'd rather have something with damage or real knocback at frame 3. UAir is frame 6 (so is the hitbox on Fire) but is fairly small.
Where he is in the current list feels more or less right to me. His MUs with the top/high tiers are pretty abysmal barring Pikachu/Mario/Ness/possibly Ryu and Bayonetta and not being able to kill while simultaneously being one of the lightest characters in the game is not a good combination.
Comparisons to Pikachu are likely apt. They're both light characters who can rack damags well but struggle to seal a stock. Game & Watch's neutral is substantially worse than Pikachu's because his shield pressure is basically nonexistent and he doesn't have Quick Attack as a burst mobility option. He also lacks Pikachu's startup time. DThrow/UAir and UThrow/Thunder are comparably successful against knowing foes except Pikachu's isn't as finicky with percent and rage and has a larger likelyhood of at least doing something.
I could be wrong. I'd love to be proven wrong. But the way I see it, Game & Watch's tools are just too inconsistent to be a real threat at the higher levels right now.
Could you explain why you think G&W certainly beats Kirby?
KO power would be firmly be in Kirby's favour (unless dthrow up air is near unavoidable for him) and despite G&W's disjoints, he's generally forced to always land with his aerials due to Kirby's stature and that leaves him quite telegraphed.
I have a feeling that G&W's edge guarding could be quite overwhelming for the character though.
It probably has something to do with G&W's impeccable ability to do whatever move he wants wherever the heck he wants, while Kirby is hindered by a slow airspeed.
Could you explain why you think G&W certainly beats Kirby?
KO power would be firmly be in Kirby's favour (unless dthrow up air is near unavoidable for him) and despite G&W's disjoints, he's generally forced to always land with his aerials due to Kirby's stature and that leaves him quite telegraphed.
I have a feeling that G&W's edge guarding could be quite overwhelming for the character though.
btw, while Game and Watch's edgeguarding IS a pain (So is back air), Kirby's down air is also a pain for game and watch's recovery too (Unless the game & Watches I've played are recovering badly; I've landed down air during his rise before, when it has the hitbox)
Could you explain why you think G&W certainly beats Kirby?
KO power would be firmly be in Kirby's favour (unless dthrow up air is near unavoidable for him) and despite G&W's disjoints, he's generally forced to always land with his aerials due to Kirby's stature and that leaves him quite telegraphed.
I have a feeling that G&W's edge guarding could be quite overwhelming for the character though.
F19 foxtrot>neutral is no joke. Shared only with Cloud.
F4 disjointed jab that can lead into his damaging throw combos, f6 dtilt disjoint that also works as a pseudo anti-air windbox, f10 ftilt disjoint with lots of active frames for people to run into it. Unfortunately his specials are not conducive to a run based playstyle (unlike Cloud's side-b and up-B), but Dash attack and reverse usmash serve as decent moves out of a run.
If his foxtrot went slightly further, he'd be better, but he has the mobility to play a good grounded game.
My understanding is that his worse matchups control ground space and force him to approach. Being able to weave in and out is great for baiting approaches and whiff punishing, but when someone like Rosa or MegaMan controls the ground so you can't dash freely, it sounds hard, especially without a air>ground game.
If there's anything G&W mains can push it's his edgeguarding. B-air hitlag makes stage spikes difficult to tech, and it lasts a nice duration along with f-air and n-air. Chef seems underappreciated to me (especially b-reversed/wavebounced in the drop zone as a sort of meat net) along with d-tilt. He has one of the best and risk free d-airs for going deep, and his up-b can snag people when you come back up.
And on that note, his up-b has that nice intangibility/windbox on startup (F2) that has already been demonstrated to trump Bayonetta's combos, so it's gotta have application in less tight juggles as well.
Agreed on edgeguarding, everybody already knows G&W has good combos and juggling, but his his edgeguarding ability is rarely talked about, bair, runoff dair and Up B all being amazing for getting stage spikes and Fair, bair, and Up B are all good gimping options. G&W's recovery allows to go to pretty deep for gimps as well.
Could you explain why you think G&W certainly beats Kirby?
KO power would be firmly be in Kirby's favour (unless dthrow up air is near unavoidable for him) and despite G&W's disjoints, he's generally forced to always land with his aerials due to Kirby's stature and that leaves him quite telegraphed.
I have a feeling that G&W's edge guarding could be quite overwhelming for the character though.
I don't think G&W wins it, it's more likely that it's even, maybe slightly in G&Ws favour, but Kirby kill power is strong. You're 100% right that Kirby does have the edge in kill power but imo Kirby can have issues getting anything started in neutral bc of his low airspeed and can be kept out of horizontal approaches by bair and vertical approaches by nair and up b (usmash does not work on FF dair). Edgeguarding is also a factor like you said. This is can be a very slow MU.
btw, while Game and Watch's edgeguarding IS a pain (So is back air), Kirby's down air is also a pain for game and watch's recovery too (Unless the game & Watches I've played are recovering badly; I've landed down air during his rise before, when it has the hitbox)
Shouldn't be a huge problem bc G&W Up B invincibility in the first half can just go through it and G&W can stall under the stage for a bit waiting for the dair. If it's really that much of an issue, I don't see what Kirby has that puts major threat on G&W recovering high
Which mains are you talking to? I honestly can't see him beating a majority of the cast, not against people with MU knowledge.
This'll be sketchy but a list of characters he almost certainly beats: (probably, got no MU experiencd for Gunner).
There are others that he probably beats but he's light enough and has such a weak neutral that his MUs tend to be extremely volatile. He combos heavies for days but has a hard time sealing the stock without edgeguarding. He gets combined fairly bad himself by characters with strong frame data. Fire's frame 2 windbox is handy but I'd rather have something with damage or real knocback at frame 3. UAir is frame 6 (so is the hitbox on Fire) but is fairly small.
Where he is in the current list feels more or less right to me. His MUs with the top/high tiers are pretty abysmal barring Pikachu/Mario/Ness/possibly Ryu and Bayonetta and not being able to kill while simultaneously being one of the lightest characters in the game is not a good combination.
Comparisons to Pikachu are likely apt. They're both light characters who can rack damags well but struggle to seal a stock. Game & Watch's neutral is substantially worse than Pikachu's because his shield pressure is basically nonexistent and he doesn't have Quick Attack as a burst mobility option. He also lacks Pikachu's startup time. DThrow/UAir and UThrow/Thunder are comparably successful against knowing foes except Pikachu's isn't as finicky with percent and rage and has a larger likelyhood of at least doing something.
I could be wrong. I'd love to be proven wrong. But the way I see it, Game & Watch's tools are just too inconsistent to be a real threat at the higher levels right now.
Mr. Game & Watch actually seems more like an even matchup. Gunner can zone out Game and Watch pretty easily without using any strong projectiles that will make Game and Watch's bucket super strong. In my personal experience against a Game and Watch at my skill level (while this isn't indicative of high level play, it is one of the few instances where these obscure characters play each other and both sides know the matchup), I have been able to win by being careful with my stronger projectiles.
Mr. Game & Watch actually seems more like an even matchup. Gunner can zone out Game and Watch pretty easily without using any strong projectiles that will make Game and Watch's bucket super strong. In my personal experience against a Game and Watch at my skill level (while this isn't indicative of high level play, it is one of the few instances where these obscure characters play each other and both sides know the matchup), I have been able to win by being careful with my stronger projectiles.
Not doubting you bc you actually have some experience in the MU, and that's already more experience than me (none), but I thought fair usefulness would be downplayed by the threat of bucket? It's strong enough for a full bucket to be a stock at any %. What other moves are useful against G&W in neutral? I've also read that gunner has an exploitable recovery, how does he prevent himself by getting gimped by G&W's heavy offstage arsenal? tbh I know nothing about gunner and always just assumed g&w wins the MU lol
Could you explain why you think G&W certainly beats Kirby?
KO power would be firmly be in Kirby's favour (unless dthrow up air is near unavoidable for him) and despite G&W's disjoints, he's generally forced to always land with his aerials due to Kirby's stature and that leaves him quite telegraphed.
I have a feeling that G&W's edge guarding could be quite overwhelming for the character though.
I'll be honest, I kind of threw Kirby in there as an afterthought as it feels like a MU that Game & Watch should win, even though experience has shown me that it's probably even or in Kirby's favor slightly, at least now that Kirby has a (better) kill throw.
I feel so exposed now Shaya-san Embarrass
Neither character can approach the other so it's a boring MU either way. Kirby's an annoying little Pepto-bisblob.
F19 foxtrot>neutral is no joke. Shared only with Cloud.
F4 disjointed jab that can lead into his damaging throw combos, f6 dtilt disjoint that also works as a pseudo anti-air windbox, f10 ftilt disjoint with lots of active frames for people to run into it. Unfortunately his specials are not conducive to a run based playstyle (unlike Cloud's side-b and up-B), but Dash attack and reverse usmash serve as decent moves out of a run.
If his foxtrot went slightly further, he'd be better, but he has the mobility to play a good grounded game.
My understanding is that his worse matchups control ground space and force him to approach. Being able to weave in and out is great for baiting approaches and whiff punishing, but when someone like Rosa or MegaMan controls the ground so you can't dash freely, it sounds hard, especially without a air>ground game.
His foxtrot is tremendous boon but, like you said, his grounded moves aren't quite strong enough to carry him. Jab needs to have earlier IASA frames to genuinely link into grab (but it's a good mixup); as it is characters can often escape or shield between jab 1 and the rapid jab. DTilt needs a few frames shaved off of it to make it more useful/safe. Everything else is more or less accurate though.
He used him as a pocket for Pac's bad MUs, not particularly noteworthy. Wario's best results has always come from Reflex. (And Waymas is one to look out for considering he's ranked 4th in the Mexico PR)
Reflex is good but he has never (to my knowledge) beaten any top players (like top-top players) while Aba beat dabuz with wario. Even if he didnt solo-main Wario he still consistently placed top 4-ish in nationals using the character to get far.
If the GaW is gonna commit to bucket, its two free punishes. Then you just stop. Did it all the time as pika. Its a pretty bad catch 22, since GaW's kinda vulnerable to zoning since his swordsman like status, he has to bucket if he wants you to stop. then you get a running usmash as pika, im imagining gunner gets a combo or a kill smash with his foxtrot. If you only use projectiles sparingly, you can often save these moments for when you're in kill range, then GaW is in trouble since he can either not bucket and get zoned or bucket and get punished. This aint great for one of the lightest characters.
If the GaW is gonna commit to bucket, its two free punishes. Then you just stop. Did it all the time as pika. Its a pretty bad catch 22, since GaW's kinda vulnerable to zoning since his swordsman like status, he has to bucket if he wants you to stop. then you get a running usmash as pika, im imagining gunner gets a combo or a kill smash with his foxtrot. If you only use projectiles sparingly, you can often save these moments for when you're in kill range, then GaW is in trouble since he can either not bucket and get zoned or bucket and get punished. This aint great for one of the lightest characters.
It's good to see someone actually bring up bucket's endlag. It's definitely punishable (default 50 frames endlag just for pulling it out, lag can be extended on succesful bucket I think), tho deincentivising characters from frequently using notable neutral tools like Pika neutral B and gunner fair is still worth noting, though it's not like Pikachu can't function without it
With pika i'd start shooting tjolts around 90% constantly, and if he buckets one you have a u-smash. i see this kind of play much stronger in a 2 stock meta.
Not doubting you bc you actually have some experience in the MU, and that's already more experience than me (none), but I thought fair usefulness would be downplayed by the threat of bucket? It's strong enough for a full bucket to be a stock at any %. What other moves are useful against G&W in neutral? I've also read that gunner has an exploitable recovery, how does he prevent himself by getting gimped by G&W's heavy offstage arsenal? tbh I know nothing about gunner and always just assumed g&w wins the MU lol
Gunner is able to survive a bucket at low to mid percents if it is not filled with strong projectiles. Also, Gunner can get Game and Watch to approach with charging up charge blast and mix in pivot flame pillar, pivot fsmash, and pivot ftilt to keep Game and Watch away. Gunner can help cover his recovery by using flame pillar or fair. Gunner can also mix up his/her recovery by Gundashing to the stage and stalling with reflector.
Megamang
, Mii Gunner can punish a fair that Game and Watch buckets with either a dashgrab, a dash attack (at low to mid percents this can make a string with fair), or a jump canceled up smash.
It's good to see someone actually bring up bucket's endlag. It's definitely punishable (default 50 frames endlag just for pulling it out, lag can be extended on succesful bucket I think), tho deincentivising characters from frequently using notable neutral tools like Pika neutral B and gunner fair is still worth noting, though it's not like Pikachu can't function without it
50 frames normally (possibly an extra 13 frames to put the bucket away), 72 frames after collecting levels one and two (you're invincible for the first 24 frames of this though), 36 frames after level three (still with 24 invincibility frames).
It's definitely something Game & Watch players have to be aware of at high percents. Multi-hit projectiles can fill the bucket quickly (though weakly), like Grenade Launcher and PK Fire. Not sure how Flame Pillar works once it has detonated though I'm sure you can collect it as it's being fired.
50 frames normally (possibly an extra 13 frames to put the bucket away), 72 frames after collecting levels one and two (you're invincible for the first 24 frames of this though), 36 frames after level three (still with 24 invincibility frames).
It's definitely something Game & Watch players have to be aware of at high percents. Multi-hit projectiles can fill the bucket quickly (though weakly), like Grenade Launcher and PK Fire. Not sure how Flame Pillar works once it has detonated though I'm sure you can collect it as it's being fired.
Damn, that is unique. Every time I learn something about the Mii's it is positive. Though I would say that is probably not surprising considering their terrible reputation.
The fact that Link's Boomerang is 27 frames frustrates me to no end. (Seriously, it's slower than PK Fire, how the **** did that happen?) It's obviously supposed to be his main combo tool but then it's one of his slowest attacks if not the slowest. It's like making Ryu's down tilt or up tilt 27 frames. I can't even find the logic behind it. It's not like it has particularly high knockback or does a lot of damage. (anymore.)
Nash's Sonic Boom is frame 15 light, frame 17 medium, frame 22 hard, and frame 11 EX. Light travels the quickest, but has the highest recovery at 32 frames, medium is medium and has 30 frames of recovery, hard travels the slowest, has the lowest recovery at 23 frames, and EX is light's speed? and has 26 frames of recovery while letting Nash throw out another Sonic Boom.
The Links' Boomerangs are (examples of) Sonic Booms in Smash as high startup, low recovery projectiles. Link's is frame 27 and has 45 total frames meaning 19 recovery frames. As a zoning tool, that's really freaking good to be able to throw out a projectile, watch what your opponent does, and react. Unfortunately, since this isn't Street Fighter and since Link's mobility is trash, it's not really good in practice, especially when Bombs exist and they have like no recovery since they're thrown items...
Pretty much anything "traditional" and "normal" in fighting games can be throw into the trash in Smash games. For one, no freaking aerial should be frame 3 or even frame 5 unless it has almost no range - hello, Little Mac Nair - or barely any knockback - hello, (Dr.) Mario and Little Mac Nair. Even Ryu's short-ranged Nair is frame 4 and not frame 2 or 3 like theirs. In Smash, hit stun and knockback, the main goal of the game, interact very differently and giving select characters super fast options that are sometimes powerful and sometimes invincible is really stupid. To make matters worse, slower characters are sometimes slow for the sake of being slow - hello, Ganondorf jab and grabs. Nash hits fasts, but moves slowly outside of his dash. To "compensate" for his lack of an invincible anti-air option and slower walking speed, they gave him moves that move him like his Bazooka Knee, Spinning Back Knuckle - this and Bazooka Knee were moves he had before SFV -, Step Kick, and his specials, Moonsault Slash and Tragedy Assault. The goal is to get Nash in. Y'know, if Ganondorf's Ftilt moved him forward... Might be a really good poke tool that can close the distance..., but no, we'll give that to Fox. Also, if his and Captain Falcon's Side Smash moved them forward even more like Laura's Bolt Charge or Step Elbow, it might solve the whole disjoints causing people to rage.
Also, get back to me when you have a frame 11 projectile that does negligible set knockback and has 48 frames of recovery. The 40 recovery frames should at least been what the grounded version had... Falco's Blaster is the most annoying projectile in the game and it's even enforced by the developers. Guess what an AI Falco will do during 1v1? Fire Blaster regardless if you're in range or not. You can walk up to that bird and he'll still fire. Damn thing doesn't kill, so what's the freaking point? Gee, and I thought this game was supposed to be fun? Falco's Blaster pissed off his opponents in Melee and Brawl and now, it's pissing off his opponents and the person using him. Fantastic, developers. Give a round of applause to them.
Nash's Sonic Boom is frame 15 light, frame 17 medium, frame 22 hard, and frame 11 EX. Light travels the quickest, but has the highest recovery at 32 frames, medium is medium and has 30 frames of recovery, hard travels the slowest, has the lowest recovery at 23 frames, and EX is light's speed? and has 26 frames of recovery while letting Nash throw out another Sonic Boom.
The Links' Boomerangs are (examples of) Sonic Booms in Smash as high startup, low recovery projectiles. Link's is frame 27 and has 45 total frames meaning 19 recovery frames. As a zoning tool, that's really freaking good to be able to throw out a projectile, watch what your opponent does, and react. Unfortunately, since this isn't Street Fighter and since Link's mobility is trash, it's not really good in practice, especially when Bombs exist and they have like no recovery since they're thrown items...
Pretty much anything "traditional" and "normal" in fighting games can be throw into the trash in Smash games. For one, no freaking aerial should be frame 3 or even frame 5 unless it has almost no range - hello, Little Mac Nair - or barely any knockback - hello, (Dr.) Mario and Little Mac Nair. Even Ryu's short-ranged Nair is frame 4 and not frame 2 or 3 like theirs. In Smash, hit stun and knockback, the main goal of the game, interact very differently and giving select characters super fast options that are sometimes powerful and sometimes invincible is really stupid. To make matters worse, slower characters are sometimes slow for the sake of being slow - hello, Ganondorf jab and grabs. Nash hits fasts, but moves slowly outside of his dash. To "compensate" for his lack of an invincible anti-air option and slower walking speed, they gave him moves that move him like his Bazooka Knee, Spinning Back Knuckle - this and Bazooka Knee were moves he had before SFV -, Step Kick, and his specials, Moonsault Slash and Tragedy Assault. The goal is to get Nash in. Y'know, if Ganondorf's Ftilt moved him forward... Might be a really good poke tool that can close the distance..., but no, we'll give that to Fox. Also, if his and Captain Falcon's Side Smash moved them forward even more like Laura's Bolt Charge or Step Elbow, it might solve the whole disjoints causing people to rage.
Also, get back to me when you have a frame 11 projectile that does negligible set knockback and has 48 frames of recovery. The 40 recovery frames should at least been what the grounded version had... Falco's Blaster is the most annoying projectile in the game and it's even enforced by the developers. Guess what an AI Falco will do during 1v1? Fire Blaster regardless if you're in range or not. You can walk up to that bird and he'll still fire. Damn thing doesn't kill, so what's the freaking point? Gee, and I thought this game was supposed to be fun? Falco's Blaster pissed off his opponents in Melee and Brawl and now, it's pissing off his opponents and the person using him. Fantastic, developers. Give a round of applause to them.
Smash is nothing like other fighting games but I think the reason lies in the fact that it's made with a more casual play in mind (even though the latest DLC characters in general appear to be pretty technical characters).
That being said, I would personally rant on all of Link's pointless shortcomings that pretty much destroy him but I've done that quite enough since post-Jab nerf.
Smash is nothing like other fighting games but I think the reason lies in the fact that it's made with a more casual play in mind (even though the latest DLC characters in general appear to be pretty technical characters).
That being said, I would personally rant on all of Link's pointless shortcomings that pretty much destroy him but I've done that quite enough since post-Jab nerf.
Street Fighter V decided to return to the basics, the core of a fighting game, and thus, it's pretty much "barebones" compared to other games. Right now, there are people saying it's braindead because it lacks techs like FADC, it's too defensive because without FADC and the shift in gameplay to be more footsies, neutral-based, and boring because you can't combo 6+ hit moves. Ring a bell for anyone? Smash 4 did the same thing: return to the basics or rather, fix and refine what Brawl did. Melee was high-speed, highly aggressive, and at times, really highly technical to Smash 64 and Smash 4's more fundamentals-based gameplay. Why's Brawl missing? Because Brawl was a **** all in terms of character and, ultimately, game design.
Problem? SFV redid everything. While this is exaggerating as there are set and established designs like Chun Li, Ken, and Ryu, Capcom went back and tried to keep everything grounded. Smash 4 didn't do that. The developers of Smash 4 basically fixed Brawl's entire cast and introduced more grounded characters. You can say all you want about Rosalina & Luma's character archetype massacring the rest of the cast and you can say all you want about the DLC characters, especially the third-party ones having more options than the rest, but you cannot say any of them were on the levels of Brawl Falco, Lucas, Meta Knight, Ness, and Wolf stupidity. There are nothing outrageously overpowered for no reason. Seriously, who thought it was a good idea to give Falco an even better projectile and Meta Knight having a freaking two-handed sword (for his size and hit speed)? And there are no oddities that hurt characters like Lucas and Ness suffering grab releases or Wolf's lack of a fast fall and meteor cancel frame being twice as much as the others.
I stand by Shaya's idea that the developers took every character in Brawl, copied them over, and toned them down if necessary and in some cases, did a terrible job e.g. Marth having no thought other than "let's not make him oppressive" or Meta Knight going from two-handed sword to a broken short sword. They managed to fix that through patches, but it's noteworthy and somewhat justifiable by Smash 4 having 51 characters at launch. In contrast, SFV only had 16 characters at launch and will probably not have +50 characters... I don't think any SF game neared 50 characters.
Smash as a concept is a celebration of Nintendo characters and with Smash 4's DLC, extends this to a celebration of early gaming history if you exclude Bayonetta or gaming history in general if you include her. So, this means there has to be a ton of characters... except that takes a toll on the developers. Realistically, you cannot even "meaningfully" change 50% of each character. If they did that... I doubt Smash 4 would have released on the Wii U or even on the NX if that's a console. It would have taken them well over a decade to fine tune and rebuild every character. At that point, there might be some "obsoletes" like let's say Star Fox bombs to the point people pretend the entire series never existed while Wario gains a successful spin-off series with Waluigi. Welp, Star Fox probably is going to go down to just Fox as a(n Assist) Trophy and Waluigi is guaranteed a spot.
If Smash 4 went the route of SFV? Yeah, people would be angry how a game known for a ton of characters dropped to a little over Smash 64's roster size. Would it benefit players? Competitively, yes, but also no, as 80% of the finalized Smash 4 cast wouldn't be there. You wouldn't be seeing ZeRo playing because his lovable Diddy and "pocket" Sheik wouldn't exist if Smash 4 went back to only having the original 12 and ~4 newcomers including probably Duck Hunt, Greninja, Rosalina, and Shulk. You wouldn't see Ryo playing when the only swordsman is Link and he's more of a zoner than a swordsman. Kiss goodbye to Trela playing all sorts of characters when there's only 16 going to be common as hell characters. Could they play someone else? Sure, but would they want to? No. And this goes for "casuals" too since there are people who value characters that function well as much as their characters are in the game. You can love whatever Nintendo franchise as much as you want, but there's going to be a point where you're like, "Really? That's all? Content-less game. Back to Melee and Brawl I go." Lack of options and in a game built upon the option of having a giant cast to pick from as each game got bigger and bigger in roster. Even if Smash 4 had periodic DLC like what SFV's planning, but the base game launched at a more "reasonable" price, people would still dislike the fact they dropped to 16, even 30 characters instead of this giant hodgepodge.
Smash 5, in my opinion, cannot be bigger than Smash 4. There's a point and I feel like Smash has reached it where there really is too many characters. Some of them might be one-shots like Cloud, Mega Man, PAC-MAN, and Ryu because of licensing issues or even Corrin, Ike, Lucas, Lucina, Robin, Roy, and Shulk because they're not reoccurring characters or that iconic to their series like how Marth and Ness represent Fire Emblem and Earthbound. This is absolutely sad because, outside of Lucina, all of them have play styles you cannot replicate with any other character. Who's going to pick up Ike's unorthodox swordsmanship? Greil? The Black Knight? Oh, wait, they're from the Tellius games too. Who's going to be the partial-transform character with exactly the style Corrin has? Nobody. You can make another transform character, but not someone to take up Corrin's play style. And thing is, we've already felt this with the Ice Climbers and Wolf. I mean, who really can take up their movesets? Nobody and this happens in all fighting games since you really can't have another Ryu in Street Fighter without it being Ryu. Ken can fill the spot, but he doesn't and can't play like Ryu or else it wouldn't be Ken.
Back to Link: Link functions, but in a game of 58 characters, you're not going to get much when there are 20-so characters who are just that better in everything. Link functions particularly well in online settings because, well, Smash is just a different beast than other fighting games playable online. Link thrives on the fact shielding is more difficult because of input lag and shields have health. Maybe if shields didn't have health, but had a damage threshold, like say any move that does 16% or any charged attack can break a shield, maybe it wouldn't be that bad, but that would radically change how the game plays since almost all moves would have to be safe on-shield to counter the fact few normals and aerials can do 16%, but most Smashes can after some charging. Smash might even have to change how shields cover like only the sides and not bottom or up. Offline and online, Link and pretty much everyone else, suffers from other characters having high mobility. I blame this on the mobility floor as the gap between low mobility and high mobility is really high even without Sonic for run speed. If say, the floor for run speed was raised to 1.4 or even 1.5, then it'd be less of a gap. It'd be madness to rearrange everyone's movement, but characters shouldn't be that slow when there are characters that fast.
For me - this will be harsh, so if you don't like harsh words, stop reading here if you even bother to read my post -, Link and pretty much any character that isn't around top 15 to 20 has no relevancy in the meta at all. This is because there are way too many characters to say exactly where the mid- and low-tiers are. You can order the top 20, but ordering everyone else would take years to even figure out half of it. Can they do stuff? Can they win tournaments large or small? Yeah, but they're just there. They're just another character compared to the "special", that good, top tiers. If anything, they're just padding between top tiers and the really, really bad characters in the bottom 10. You can pick out the best of the best and the worst of the worst, but can you really pick out the average of the averages? It's like trying to figure out which sardine is which or which Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla when everyone drives them, so it's kind of pointless, but it's easier to say if a Mazda Mazda3 or Suburu Impreza is better than them or is worse then them. It's because of this that I think the tier list should have only been limited to the top 20 and the bottom 10. The other 28 characters don't really matter as they're just part of this blob of mediocrity.
I stand by Shaya's idea that the developers took every character in Brawl, copied them over, and toned them down if necessary and in some cases, did a terrible job e.g. Marth having no thought other than "let's not make him oppressive" or Meta Knight going from two-handed sword to a broken short sword. They managed to fix that through patches, but it's noteworthy and somewhat justifiable by Smash 4 having 51 characters at launch. In contrast, SFV only had 16 characters at launch and will probably not have +50 characters... I don't think any SF game neared 50 characters.
Anyway, you're not taking into consideration what the intended direction with the characters is. You can't really look at the past Smash games beyond a surface level for different reasons. 64 was low budget so it's kind of a kusoge (in the positive sense). Melee was rushed and you gotta be delusional if you think Melee's potential was deliberate. It's pretty much a happy accident. Brawl was what happens when you hire a developer with no fighting game experience to make a fighting game.
There's a reason why Namco was picked to work on Smash 4 - Tekken and Soul Calibur, ESPECIALLY Tekken. There were numerous designs in Melee and Brawl that were just flat out poorly executed. Smash 4 took into more of a poke direction which makes sense given his tipper properties. was just an unbalanced mess and Smash 4 straightened him out with his hitboxes getting fixed later on (at least it happened relatively early). Meanwhile, you seem to be neglecting characters that are finally good for a change. Two that come to mind are Bowser and Mario. For someone that's been the shoto until THE shoto showed up, was never a very strong character, but now he's top 10, top 15 at worst. 's design concept of the big bruiser was starting to improve in Brawl, but he got the adjustments needed to be a strong character in 4.
Like Street Fighter V, Guilty Gear Xrd, and Tekken, Smash 4 went to an emphasis in fundamentals. Ultimately, this means straight up footsies and strategic application of all your tools at hand. Compare this to SF4 where you can to learn BnB links from LP and LK hit confirms, FADC, etc.
Now, there are still some designs that aren't perfect, namely characters like , , but they ARE fixable especially who would drastically improve if he had 's FThrow as a stock cap.
Not a huge point of contention but you actually can collect Flame Pillar once it's detonated (just tested). It stays there, and Game & Watch only gets one level, but it's a reasonably nice thing to collect as three of them will give Game & Watch a 51% bucket; not a OHKO but pretty darn close. Assuming missiles are like Samus's they can't be absorbed. Bombs can be absorbed but only if they don't hit Game & Watch, probably because they detonate on contact, unlike Samus's.
I don't disagree about the MUs but I wouldn't call Wario "on the come up". He's rarely present and this isn't changing - as has been pointed out, his most notable victory was with customs on and from a player who secondaries him. I don't know if "stagnating" is the right word but Wario doesn't seem to be rising.
Anyway, you're not taking into consideration what the intended direction with the characters is. You can't really look at the past Smash games beyond a surface level for different reasons. 64 was low budget so it's kind of a kusoge (in the positive sense). Melee was rushed and you gotta be delusional if you think Melee's potential was deliberate. It's pretty much a happy accident. Brawl was what happens when you hire a developer with no fighting game experience to make a fighting game.
There's a reason why Namco was picked to work on Smash 4 - Tekken and Soul Calibur, ESPECIALLY Tekken. There were numerous designs in Melee and Brawl that were just flat out poorly executed. Smash 4 took into more of a poke direction which makes sense given his tipper properties. was just an unbalanced mess and Smash 4 straightened him out with his hitboxes getting fixed later on (at least it happened relatively early). Meanwhile, you seem to be neglecting characters that are finally good for a change. Two that come to mind are Bowser and Mario. For someone that's been the shoto until THE shoto showed up, was never a very strong character, but now he's top 10, top 15 at worst. 's design concept of the big bruiser was starting to improve in Brawl, but he got the adjustments needed to be a strong character in 4.
Like Street Fighter V, Guilty Gear Xrd, and Tekken, Smash 4 went to an emphasis in fundamentals. Ultimately, this means straight up footsies and strategic application of all your tools at hand. Compare this to SF4 where you can to learn BnB links from LP and LK hit confirms, FADC, etc.
Now, there are still some designs that aren't perfect, namely characters like , , but they ARE fixable especially who would drastically improve if he had 's FThrow as a stock cap.
Mario was billed as an average in every Smash up until now, and aside from Brawl where he's surrounded by broken and overtuned characters he's had fittingly average positions on tier lists. Decent in 64, as well as Melee where he's mainly outclassed by the supposedly slower Doc due to the latter's more favourable position in the metagame.
His adjustments for 4 probably came about as a realization that a character with his short range and attack speed needs more mobility to be successful, and that he doesn't need to be perfectly average in every way to be an all-rounder.
Anyway, you're not taking into consideration what the intended direction with the characters is. You can't really look at the past Smash games beyond a surface level for different reasons. 64 was low budget so it's kind of a kusoge (in the positive sense). Melee was rushed and you gotta be delusional if you think Melee's potential was deliberate. It's pretty much a happy accident. Brawl was what happens when you hire a developer with no fighting game experience to make a fighting game.
There's a reason why Namco was picked to work on Smash 4 - Tekken and Soul Calibur, ESPECIALLY Tekken. There were numerous designs in Melee and Brawl that were just flat out poorly executed. Smash 4 took into more of a poke direction which makes sense given his tipper properties. was just an unbalanced mess and Smash 4 straightened him out with his hitboxes getting fixed later on (at least it happened relatively early). Meanwhile, you seem to be neglecting characters that are finally good for a change. Two that come to mind are Bowser and Mario. For someone that's been the shoto until THE shoto showed up, was never a very strong character, but now he's top 10, top 15 at worst. 's design concept of the big bruiser was starting to improve in Brawl, but he got the adjustments needed to be a strong character in 4.
Like Street Fighter V, Guilty Gear Xrd, and Tekken, Smash 4 went to an emphasis in fundamentals. Ultimately, this means straight up footsies and strategic application of all your tools at hand. Compare this to SF4 where you can to learn BnB links from LP and LK hit confirms, FADC, etc.
Now, there are still some designs that aren't perfect, namely characters like , , but they ARE fixable especially who would drastically improve if he had 's FThrow as a stock cap.
Yet the development team dumped on . Pit got butchered a little, Ike was trash on release, G&W was butchered and he wasn't that good anyways, and the rest are trash tier characters who got further butchering. They made the abominations of clone design (patched but it is still lazy) and butchered in many aspects despite buffing them. among others haven't received anything substantial from patches, and the patches butchered bad characters even further (WHY?!).
Yet the development team dumped on . Pit got butchered a little, Ike was trash on release, G&W was butchered and he wasn't that good anyways, and the rest are trash tier characters who got further butchering. They made the abominations of clone design (patched but it is still lazy) and butchered in many aspects despite buffing them. among others haven't received anything substantial from patches, and the patches butchered bad characters even further (WHY?!).
...Kirby and Pit were mid-tier characters in Brawl. They weren't trash by any means. They paled in comparison to the high tiers for sure, but they weren't garbage.
Mewtwo is a far more solid character in Smash 4 than he could ever dream to be in Melee. Also, what are you even talking about in regards to Bowser? Him having a combo throw (even with it having a tighter window) is the outright biggest improvement for him, and him getting some nice things like less ending lag on up tilt and Flying Slam getting a larger hitbox aren't exactly "butchering".
Yet the development team dumped on . Pit got butchered a little, Ike was trash on release, G&W was butchered and he wasn't that good anyways, and the rest are trash tier characters who got further butchering. They made the abominations of clone design (patched but it is still lazy) and butchered in many aspects despite buffing them. among others haven't received anything substantial from patches, and the patches butchered bad characters even further (WHY?!).
You're acting like they did it on purpose lol chill they buffed most of these characters and brought them from being bad to decent/good. D3, Jiggly, Zelda, and samus are sad cases, but little Mac is a loss cause imo
Yet the development team dumped on . Pit got butchered a little, Ike was trash on release, G&W was butchered and he wasn't that good anyways, and the rest are trash tier characters who got further butchering. They made the abominations of clone design (patched but it is still lazy) and butchered in many aspects despite buffing them. among others haven't received anything substantial from patches, and the patches butchered bad characters even further (WHY?!).
Zelda's design is just unfortunate in that if any part of it is too good, even for a low-level player it results in massive protest. How many of those players you think fell victim to Din's juggles or usmash spam in Brawl?
Samus, even with her current problems is still a more effective character than she was in Brawl even before the patches, if only because her Charge Shot is back to it's former glory (her new combo game certainly doesn't hurt, though).
Jigglypuff is also better than she was in Brawl, but has bad luck with the game mechanics. Story of her life, really: she lives and dies by the mechanics of her games. One can only wonder how terrifying she'd be in 64 if she had her now-trademark air speed.
G&W had his moveset rebalanced so that everything has use, instead of just relying on a few broken ones. The biggest thing he lost was an exploit that masked his light weight unintentionally.
Lucas too is better , arguably even before his grab buff. He no longer deals with stupid grab releases, and his pressure game was toned down, sure, but to compensate for his newly added zair and throw game.
I don't see anything about Roy that is worse from Melee, aside from his dair and loss of that game's tricks. Flare Blade's different but the old one wouldn't have been that useful in 4 anyway.
Dedede and Mac's nerfs came very early on when people were still figuring out how effective everyone was at top level. Their nerfs may seem unwarranted and unnecessary now, but it was clear that they were causing issues at low level.
Plus, I get the feeling they don't want Dedede to be as grapple-centric as the other heavies.
If Illusion.
's record is as good as I recall then Greninja has more than two relevant wins over Fox but I'll wait for him to weigh in. Not sure which ones were in bracket.
There's no reason why Greninja couldn't develop further counterplay against Fox either.
MU inexperience is a factor now, as it has been with all of the new/under-repped characters. Only time will tell whether Greninja will have staying power (Rosalina) or get figured out (Pac-Man).
I don't see anything about Roy that is worse from Melee, aside from his dair and loss of that game's tricks. Flare Blade's different but the old one wouldn't have been that useful in 4 anyway.
His d tilt got butchered, actually. Used to send opponents up at the perfect angle for a quick Fair or Nair. Now it sends them just horizontally. Still a good poke, just not as threatening as a combo starter. In fact, I think Roy's old d tilt is exactly like M2's new one. Other than that, Roy is a much better character relative to the two metagames, and I'd argue just as a character in general. Anyone who thinks Roy got butchered overall really needs to pick up Melee again.
Edit: fun little fact about Roy's old Dair, it has a hitbox on the sword less arm's shoulder. I presume that's the spike hitbox. So you need to be next to or below the opponent to actually get the good part of the Dair. Not saying it's worse than smash 4 Dair, just very awkward to use (just like Roy in general when playing Melee)
...Kirby and Pit were mid-tier characters in Brawl. They weren't trash by any means. They paled in comparison to the high tiers for sure, but they weren't garbage.
Mewtwo is a far more solid character in Smash 4 than he could ever dream to be in Melee. Also, what are you even talking about in regards to Bowser? Him having a combo throw (even with it having a tighter window) is the outright biggest improvement for him, and him getting some nice things like less ending lag on up tilt and Flying Slam getting a larger hitbox aren't exactly "butchering".
Zelda's design is just unfortunate in that if any part of it is too good, even for a low-level player it results in massive protest. How many of those players you think fell victim to Din's juggles or usmash spam in Brawl?
Samus, even with her current problems is still a more effective character than she was in Brawl even before the patches, if only because her Charge Shot is back to it's former glory (her new combo game certainly doesn't hurt, though).
Jigglypuff is also better than she was in Brawl, but has bad luck with the game mechanics. Story of her life, really: she lives and dies by the mechanics of her games. One can only wonder how terrifying she'd be in 64 if she had her now-trademark air speed.
G&W had his moveset rebalanced so that everything has use, instead of just relying on a few broken ones. The biggest thing he lost was an exploit that masked his light weight unintentionally.
Lucas too is better , arguably even before his grab buff. He no longer deals with stupid grab releases, and his pressure game was toned down, sure, but to compensate for his newly added zair and throw game.
I don't see anything about Roy that is worse from Melee, aside from his dair and loss of that game's tricks. Flare Blade's different but the old one wouldn't have been that useful in 4 anyway.
Dedede and Mac's nerfs came very early on when people were still figuring out how effective everyone was at top level. Their nerfs may seem unwarranted and unnecessary now, but it was clear that they were causing issues at low level.
Plus, I get the feeling they don't want Dedede to be as grapple-centric as the other heavies.
Roy lost active frames on his moves, Flare Blade's sword hitbox got removed, Blazer has less distance, D Tilt no longer comboing, lag on some things increased. Lucas lost his damage output and autocancels.
Bowser has one of the most flawed designs, I'm surprised some of you are using him as an example of a character well done.
Just remember that he had to get a broken grab combo to get out of bottom tier. He has no usable options on disadvantaged state, which somehow is justified by his weight, but his "obvious" options for avoiding juggle are down air and down b, both being overpowered at casual level and underwhelming at high level. Other moves have the same problem of being too strong at low level and too weak at high level.
The rework was good, the character has gotten some sense all around, but his design is not the finest example out there. I'm pretty sure that they just gave him the grab combo because they didn't know how to fix him. It obviously helped him, because killing at 60% with a grab is somewhat strong.
Street Fighter V decided to return to the basics, the core of a fighting game, and thus, it's pretty much "barebones" compared to other games. Right now, there are people saying it's braindead because it lacks techs like FADC, it's too defensive because without FADC and the shift in gameplay to be more footsies, neutral-based, and boring because you can't combo 6+ hit moves. Ring a bell for anyone? Smash 4 did the same thing: return to the basics or rather, fix and refine what Brawl did. Melee was high-speed, highly aggressive, and at times, really highly technical to Smash 64 and Smash 4's more fundamentals-based gameplay. Why's Brawl missing? Because Brawl was a **** all in terms of character and, ultimately, game design.
Problem? SFV redid everything. While this is exaggerating as there are set and established designs like Chun Li, Ken, and Ryu, Capcom went back and tried to keep everything grounded. Smash 4 didn't do that. The developers of Smash 4 basically fixed Brawl's entire cast and introduced more grounded characters. You can say all you want about Rosalina & Luma's character archetype massacring the rest of the cast and you can say all you want about the DLC characters, especially the third-party ones having more options than the rest, but you cannot say any of them were on the levels of Brawl Falco, Lucas, Meta Knight, Ness, and Wolf stupidity. There are nothing outrageously overpowered for no reason. Seriously, who thought it was a good idea to give Falco an even better projectile and Meta Knight having a freaking two-handed sword (for his size and hit speed)? And there are no oddities that hurt characters like Lucas and Ness suffering grab releases or Wolf's lack of a fast fall and meteor cancel frame being twice as much as the others.
I stand by Shaya's idea that the developers took every character in Brawl, copied them over, and toned them down if necessary and in some cases, did a terrible job e.g. Marth having no thought other than "let's not make him oppressive" or Meta Knight going from two-handed sword to a broken short sword. They managed to fix that through patches, but it's noteworthy and somewhat justifiable by Smash 4 having 51 characters at launch. In contrast, SFV only had 16 characters at launch and will probably not have +50 characters... I don't think any SF game neared 50 characters.
Smash as a concept is a celebration of Nintendo characters and with Smash 4's DLC, extends this to a celebration of early gaming history if you exclude Bayonetta or gaming history in general if you include her. So, this means there has to be a ton of characters... except that takes a toll on the developers. Realistically, you cannot even "meaningfully" change 50% of each character. If they did that... I doubt Smash 4 would have released on the Wii U or even on the NX if that's a console. It would have taken them well over a decade to fine tune and rebuild every character. At that point, there might be some "obsoletes" like let's say Star Fox bombs to the point people pretend the entire series never existed while Wario gains a successful spin-off series with Waluigi. Welp, Star Fox probably is going to go down to just Fox as a(n Assist) Trophy and Waluigi is guaranteed a spot.
If Smash 4 went the route of SFV? Yeah, people would be angry how a game known for a ton of characters dropped to a little over Smash 64's roster size. Would it benefit players? Competitively, yes, but also no, as 80% of the finalized Smash 4 cast wouldn't be there. You wouldn't be seeing ZeRo playing because his lovable Diddy and "pocket" Sheik wouldn't exist if Smash 4 went back to only having the original 12 and ~4 newcomers including probably Duck Hunt, Greninja, Rosalina, and Shulk. You wouldn't see Ryo playing when the only swordsman is Link and he's more of a zoner than a swordsman. Kiss goodbye to Trela playing all sorts of characters when there's only 16 going to be common as hell characters. Could they play someone else? Sure, but would they want to? No. And this goes for "casuals" too since there are people who value characters that function well as much as their characters are in the game. You can love whatever Nintendo franchise as much as you want, but there's going to be a point where you're like, "Really? That's all? Content-less game. Back to Melee and Brawl I go." Lack of options and in a game built upon the option of having a giant cast to pick from as each game got bigger and bigger in roster. Even if Smash 4 had periodic DLC like what SFV's planning, but the base game launched at a more "reasonable" price, people would still dislike the fact they dropped to 16, even 30 characters instead of this giant hodgepodge.
Smash 5, in my opinion, cannot be bigger than Smash 4. There's a point and I feel like Smash has reached it where there really is too many characters. Some of them might be one-shots like Cloud, Mega Man, PAC-MAN, and Ryu because of licensing issues or even Corrin, Ike, Lucas, Lucina, Robin, Roy, and Shulk because they're not reoccurring characters or that iconic to their series like how Marth and Ness represent Fire Emblem and Earthbound. This is absolutely sad because, outside of Lucina, all of them have play styles you cannot replicate with any other character. Who's going to pick up Ike's unorthodox swordsmanship? Greil? The Black Knight? Oh, wait, they're from the Tellius games too. Who's going to be the partial-transform character with exactly the style Corrin has? Nobody. You can make another transform character, but not someone to take up Corrin's play style. And thing is, we've already felt this with the Ice Climbers and Wolf. I mean, who really can take up their movesets? Nobody and this happens in all fighting games since you really can't have another Ryu in Street Fighter without it being Ryu. Ken can fill the spot, but he doesn't and can't play like Ryu or else it wouldn't be Ken.
Back to Link: Link functions, but in a game of 58 characters, you're not going to get much when there are 20-so characters who are just that better in everything. Link functions particularly well in online settings because, well, Smash is just a different beast than other fighting games playable online. Link thrives on the fact shielding is more difficult because of input lag and shields have health. Maybe if shields didn't have health, but had a damage threshold, like say any move that does 16% or any charged attack can break a shield, maybe it wouldn't be that bad, but that would radically change how the game plays since almost all moves would have to be safe on-shield to counter the fact few normals and aerials can do 16%, but most Smashes can after some charging. Smash might even have to change how shields cover like only the sides and not bottom or up. Offline and online, Link and pretty much everyone else, suffers from other characters having high mobility. I blame this on the mobility floor as the gap between low mobility and high mobility is really high even without Sonic for run speed. If say, the floor for run speed was raised to 1.4 or even 1.5, then it'd be less of a gap. It'd be madness to rearrange everyone's movement, but characters shouldn't be that slow when there are characters that fast.
For me - this will be harsh, so if you don't like harsh words, stop reading here if you even bother to read my post -, Link and pretty much any character that isn't around top 15 to 20 has no relevancy in the meta at all. This is because there are way too many characters to say exactly where the mid- and low-tiers are. You can order the top 20, but ordering everyone else would take years to even figure out half of it. Can they do stuff? Can they win tournaments large or small? Yeah, but they're just there. They're just another character compared to the "special", that good, top tiers. If anything, they're just padding between top tiers and the really, really bad characters in the bottom 10. You can pick out the best of the best and the worst of the worst, but can you really pick out the average of the averages? It's like trying to figure out which sardine is which or which Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla when everyone drives them, so it's kind of pointless, but it's easier to say if a Mazda Mazda3 or Suburu Impreza is better than them or is worse then them. It's because of this that I think the tier list should have only been limited to the top 20 and the bottom 10. The other 28 characters don't really matter as they're just part of this blob of mediocrity.
Thank you for doing all the ranting for me, I completely agree, especially when it comes to that character. I don't doubt that eventually there will be a time where the 20+ list actually do become irrelevant and will be a rare sight in tournaments. But I think that's why you have people on this thread fighting for their favorite character's relevance. That's why you keep seeing the dead horse being beaten dead again right in the spot light. It's tough to have to see your favorite character (nintendo or not) slowly become nothing more than a tiny piece to fill in such a big puzzle. Especially when youve invested a lot of time into honing your skills with said character. Personally, I am not sympathetic with any of it. Though I can be very optimistic at times. But over time you come to realize that if the players' character cannot prove that he or she can consistently take big tournaments or even at least make top 8, then they just slowly die off, and rightfully so. Im not writing off the locals either though, I think they do play a part in everything. If Link or any of the low tiers are hitting 1st at locals then it's at least worth something. I also believe locals are one of the best ways to practice for the much larger tournaments. But as everyone knows, beating a local is a lot different than beating a national. That's why tiers can be heavily influenced by a characters ability to stand for him or herself in a national. That's why you see Greninja getting the talk that he probably very well deserves. That's why even Link has gotten some talk for making 9th. IF and only if Link can perform like that again - whether it be through Izaw or another - then yeah, maybe he actually should be talked about seriously. But personally, like I've said a hundred times I don't see a character like him making it past the bottom half.
But that's what happens when you have far too many characters to balance. That's why developers get scared of things like Link's "infinite jab" and call in the nerf support. They can't keep track of everyone because it's just simply too much.
Bowser has one of the most flawed designs, I'm surprised some of you are using him as an example of a character well done.
Just remember that he had to get a broken grab combo to get out of bottom tier. He has no usable options on disadvantaged state, which somehow is justified by his weight, but his "obvious" options for avoiding juggle are down air and down b, both being overpowered at casual level and underwhelming at high level. Other moves have the same problem of being too strong at low level and too weak at high level.
The rework was good, the character has gotten some sense all around, but his design is not the finest example out there. I'm pretty sure that they just gave him the grab combo because they didn't know how to fix him. It obviously helped him, because killing at 60% with a grab is somewhat strong.
Reflex is good but he has never (to my knowledge) beaten any top players (like top-top players) while Aba beat dabuz with wario. Even if he didnt solo-main Wario he still consistently placed top 4-ish in nationals using the character to get far.
Roy lost autocancels, RANGE, active frames, gained lag on some moves. He gained damage, lost lag on most moves, and WAY better mobility (and recovery I guess), kill power in general. His throws are actually extremely similar to Melee's values of knockback and angle too.
I'd say the biggest nerfs for Roy are DTILT, Fsmash, Dair, Flare Blade (it had frame 15 start-up, 5 start-up out of charge, and arcing hitbox coverage all over), and Uthrow (does way more KB in Melee you just can't tell because of the crazy vertical survival).
