Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Dinoman96]

Aerolink plays mainly Bayonetta now from what I remember. Not sure if he keeps Palutena as a second.

Aerolink is all about Bayonetta now, yes. He does mess around with Link and Palu (his former mains) sometimes for fun. He said that if her customs were still legal, he'd co-main Palutena.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The problem with Ganon (from my point of view) is that his moveset comes from Captain Falcon's, a character intended to be both fast and powerful. To make a difference with Ganon, they took out the "fast" part and put more into the "powerful" part, resulting in the mess we have now: a slowpoke without a projectile whose gameplan consists in making three or more hard reads to take a stock with his massive damage output.

At least in Melee with wavedashing he had better mobility, but we all see how that went in Brawl and now in Smash 4.

The other problem with Ganon is that they took Falcon's best move away from him. Maybe the gap between jabs is now smaller after the buffs, but Dorf with Falcon's jab would at least be low-mid.

 

[SaltyKracka]

The other problem with Ganon is that they took Falcon's best move away from him. Maybe the gap between jabs is now smaller after the buffs, but Dorf with Falcon's jab would at least be low-mid.

Think you mean two best moves. Ganon with an at least decent dash grab would be a much better character than he is.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Think you mean two best moves. Ganon with an at least decent dash grab would be a much better character than he is.

Kind of, but Dorf's run speed means it wouldn't really be comparable to Falcon's. In combination with his DA it would be useful. Jab's still way more important.

 

[verbatim]

More than anything else, Ganon needs significant reward for when he lands his bad grab. I'd add 1-2% to his side and up throws and give his throw an electric element effect so that he could force DI 50-50's in a lot of weird situations, gain real positional advantage, put people offstage, and just kill out right if someone somehow manages to make it to 130%.

Also no teching flame choke, w/ the throw stuff, would make Ganon a much more fundamental/reading character overall.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Might as well call every grappler in 2D fighters bad design, sorry, philosophy, too. They almost always start their rounds on the back foot due to being at a distance and have to find holes in the opponent's defence to really begin playing.

except they actually get consistently good reward when they get in. Ganon has to get reads just to get damage when he gets in. O.T.Hawk can end the round on one knockdown. Daimon has stupid normals and does 30% on command. Potemkin is Potemkin. Etc...

best designed characters imo goes to and. Diverse movesets, gets punished hard for mistakes, neutral that has a answer for everything, and hits very hard and kills at lower percentages than the rest of the cast.

My favorite

 

[HeavyLobster]

More than anything else, Ganon needs significant reward for when he lands his bad grab. I'd add 1-2% to his side and up throws and give his throw an electric element effect so that he could force DI 50-50's in a lot of weird situations, gain real positional advantage, put people offstage, and just kill out right if someone somehow manages to make it to 130%.

Also no teching flame choke, w/ the throw stuff, would make Ganon a much more fundamental/reading character overall.

Really B/Uthrow are the ones that need work. Fthrow gives 13% + positional advantage, while Dthrow is very good on fastfallers at low-mid %s. Bthrow should probably be able to kill about as well as Falcon's, while Uthrow right now is very niche and only really is for characters with bad landing options, so kill power and/or more damage on it would also be useful. Note that even the slightest of mobility buffs would significantly improve his throws' utility in general, and while they overall are a bit weaker than they should be, they aren't his biggest issue.

 

[UberMadman]

Actually, I'm pretty sure the least bad of Jr.'s top tier matchups is Ryu. Mechakoopa is annoying to a character who threatens his opponent by walking around a lot and has very committal jump arcs, and of course Ryu is easy to juggle, though one must be wary of Focus Attack. On top of that, Bowser Jr. can dissuade approach with sh fair and bair because Ryu is tall and I'm pretty sure he is on the list of characters who can get sweetspotted by the moves without Jr. having to give up his autocancel window. Fair can also be fastfallen for a second, landing hitbox to break Focus. Not saying the matchup is in Jr.'s favor or even necessarily 50-50, but I feel it's manageable unless Ryu manages to constantly win neutral.

I posted this 22 days ago and no one responded to it.

 

[soniczx123]

I posted this 22 days ago and no one responded to it.

Did you predict this?

 

[UberMadman]

lmao I wish

 

[my_T]

Can somebody explain to me what makes B.jr so bad?

IMO, by design, no zoning character can be bad; at least not in smash. Smash gives them more than enough room to run around and do their bull ****. I'm not saying they're all great, but I would say they're all decent at the very least.

 

[TurboLink]

Can somebody explain to me what makes B.jr so bad?

IMO, by design, no zoning character can be bad; at least not in smash. Smash gives them more than enough room to run around and do their bull ****. I'm not saying they're all great, but I would say they're all decent at the very least.

You do realize that that's a double-edged sword, right?

 

[Radical Larry]

Just the tournament pools alone show how inexperienced people are in making a tier list. Suffice to say, another year should work to making a new tier list.

Also, knowing Nintendo is sponsoring (and probably watching) the tournament, it's likely to say that we could have 1.1.7 running straight towards us in the future.

 

[conTAgi0n]

I personally do not like 's design at all. I find him singularly joyless to play against, whether I'm winning or losing. It's like he doesn't have a neutral state at all, because his ground game is so good that just being in "neutral" is advantageous for him. This is of course compensated for by the fact that every time he is in disadvantage he is at risk of losing the stock. I find that when I play against a good Little Mac, most of the match feels like a thankless uphill battle which you are usually losing due to how much better his tools are than yours. Then when you kill them, it is invariably by tossing him offstage and then getting an anticlimactic and unsatisfying gimp that feels just as unfair as everything he did to you onstage. And KO punch is the sort of thing that should only come out of a Smash ball.

I personally would be much happier with his design if they took out his super armor and compensated by giving him proper recovery tools. Then he might be more consistent in competitive play. Best of all, he would actually have to play around his opponent's moves, rather than just barreling through them. Isn't that how it works in Punch Out, not to mention actual boxing? Also, please take away KO punch altogether. If you want to include a unique mechanic from Punch Out, I'll vote for his stamina meter instead.

Regarding , I think a part of the problem with his design execution is that he becomes so effective at camping when his aura builds up.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Might get a bit of flack for this, but I really hate Robin's design in this game. He has by far the worst initial dash and dash in the game, tilts that don't really combo into anything while also dealing poor damage, a frame 7 jumpsquat, laggy grab, and aerials that, while powerful, have a fair bit of startup compared to other swordfighters. He makes up for this with a strong keep away game, amazing combos out of arcthunder and arc fire, and checkmate, but the issues still makes him really difficult to play as, especially in disadvantage where he is particularly helpless compared to other sword fighters.

 

[verbatim]

Really B/Uthrow are the ones that need work.

My thinking behind fthrow is a 50-50 if you grab a standard getup, opponent DI's in and dies to fair, DI's out and fthrow kills.

I just think in general Ganon's throw game is vastly inferior, compared to Falcon's and especially to most of the other super heavies. DK, Bowser, and I guess Charizard all have some of the best throw games of the entire cast. If Gabon's supposed to be the strongest of the super heavies/everyone, and based off of a character with three kill throws and a great combo throw, he should probably have a considerably insane throw game.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Can somebody explain to me what makes B.jr so bad?

I wouldn't say bad but I will argue that the character does have his flaws:

1. combo oriented character but no set up throws
2. gets juggled just like any other heavy weight
3. one of the worst grabs in the game
4. several comically bad match ups in the top/high tiers ()
5. very few reliable kill options
6. can get ball tapped out of his recovery (a big reason why the match up sucks)
7. the mecha koopa can backfire

As others have said, the matches were really impressive but is probably Bowser Jr's only noteworthy top/high tier match up.

 

[Yikarur]

best designed characters imo goes to and. Diverse movesets, gets punished hard for mistakes, neutral that has a answer for everything, and hits very hard and kills at lower percentages than the rest of the cast.

My favorite

Rob is one of the worst designed characters in the game.
You get beaten up all the time, get juggled, but is fat and hard to kill for that reason and then you get dthrow upair at 60-70 for the stock.

 

[meleebrawler]

Fun fact: people also like to throw around the term "bad design" to describe feelings of saltiness.

Might get a bit of flack for this, but I really hate Robin's design in this game. He has by far the worst initial dash and dash in the game, tilts that don't really combo into anything while also dealing poor damage, a frame 7 jumpsquat, laggy grab, and aerials that, while powerful, have a fair bit of startup compared to other swordfighters. He makes up for this with a strong keep away game, amazing combos out of arcthunder and arc fire, and checkmate, but the issues still makes him really difficult to play as, especially in disadvantage where he is particularly helpless compared to other sword fighters.

At this rate, we're gonna be calling every character except Diddy Kong badly designed for not following his example of how to be top tier.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Fun fact: people also like to throw around the term "bad design" to describe feelings of saltiness.



At this rate, we're gonna be calling every character except Diddy Kong badly designed for not following his example of how to be top tier.

I described it as a buzzword recently on twitter. l0l

Edit: Ban Palutena

 

[Ghostbone]

Inb4 people keep saying Ryu is top 5 and Palutena is bottom 10.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Last week, I laughed at people for complaining about upsets after a year of one person winning everything with one character. Now, after watching just Day 1 of CEO, I'm legitimately worried that these upsets could actually be due to fundamentally flawed design choices in Smash 4 that inherently make the game less skill based.

Granted, it could also be argued that the meta has been going through a pretty drastic shift, and top players still have poor matchup knowledge in a game where almost everyone is a threat. I don't know.

 

[BunbUn129]

2 stock + rage is an amazing recipe for upsets. Plus the nerfs to the top tier kill set-ups.

 

[Ghostbone]

The gap between the mid level and top level is proving to be very small in this game.

That implies that the skill ceiling of this game is very low, so lots of players can achieve it (top players just got there faster?), which doesn't bode well for consistency of competition as the game continues to age lol.

 

[sedrf]

trela was actually eliminated by a lucario
people just need to lesnr mus

 

[C0rvus]

Guess what still happens in 3 stock? Rage kills. Adding another stock means more opportunities for rage bs. There's two sides to every coin.

 

[Trifroze]

These few 2 stock BO3 pool results sure shake everything I've thought for the past ~1½ years or so!

oh wait **** they don't because that kind of thinking would just be incredibly stupid

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

After this tournament. I expect the movement for 3-stock to really pick up steam. Salt is probably the biggest motivator for top players.

 

[sedrf]

People just aren't experience with mus yet and we aren't sure sakurai won't make a patach or an nx version.
This stuff happens in sf4 before it died.
We should all calm down and not blame stuff like skill ceiling,rage,etc.

 

[Jehtt]

Why do people act as if top level play has reached its peak? Top players getting upset may very well mean that there is a lot of room for top level play to improve, not that top level and mid-level play will end up being pretty much the same.

 

[Fenny]

Can we please remember that this game isn't even 2 years old yet. It's a relatively new game with a vast cast, and unlike Melee where only about half of the cast is actually viable competitively this game is a lot more leveled in comparison. It'll take time for things to reach consistency because right now the game is still growing and so the scene is constantly changing.

Just be patient.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Why do people act as if top level play has reached its peak? Top players getting upset may very well mean that there is a lot of room for top level play to improve, not that top level and mid-level play will end up being pretty much the same.

Exactly. Is it so hard to accept that other players are improving and finding their way in this game as well? Is it that hard to see that even the best players still have weaknesses and things to learn?

Stop johning about the rules of all things, just play the game.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

If a good player loses in this game, it just has to be MU inexperience, or rage shenanigans, or something about two stocks not being enough stocks. You know, it can't just be players getting outplayed, or other people getting better too. Nah, that can't happen..

 

[Fatmanonice]

Why do people act as if top level play has reached its peak? .

Because people like to pout when mid/low tiers do good because, unlike past Smash games, this game only has like 1-2 characters that can be totally discounted where Melee and Brawl had entire tiers that weren't meant to ever be taken seriously at high levels of play.

 

[Yikarur]

Fundamentals alone won't be enough from now on. People are catching up and getting better with their characters at a very fast rate.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Fundamentals alone won't be enough from now on. People are catching up and getting better with their characters at a very fast rate.

This. Cruise control for the top players is no longer an option and god help them if the ceiling is lowered or the floor is raised with another patch. Low tier in this game is pretty much in an ongoing identity crisis and mid tier still has a lot of promising characters so I think things are going to get more and more interesting as time goes on.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

I personally do not like 's design at all. I find him singularly joyless to play against, whether I'm winning or losing. It's like he doesn't have a neutral state at all, because his ground game is so good that just being in "neutral" is advantageous for him. This is of course compensated for by the fact that every time he is in disadvantage he is at risk of losing the stock. I find that when I play against a good Little Mac, most of the match feels like a thankless uphill battle which you are usually losing due to how much better his tools are than yours. Then when you kill them, it is invariably by tossing him offstage and then getting an anticlimactic and unsatisfying gimp that feels just as unfair as everything he did to you onstage. And KO punch is the sort of thing that should only come out of a Smash ball.

I personally would be much happier with his design if they took out his super armor and compensated by giving him proper recovery tools. Then he might be more consistent in competitive play. Best of all, he would actually have to play around his opponent's moves, rather than just barreling through them. Isn't that how it works in Punch Out, not to mention actual boxing? Also, please take away KO punch altogether. If you want to include a unique mechanic from Punch Out, I'll vote for his stamina meter instead.

Regarding , I think a part of the problem with his design execution is that he becomes so effective at camping when his aura builds up.

So you want a generic boxer?

 

[SaltyKracka]

So you want a generic boxer?

It's better than the least interesting character in the game.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Fundamentals alone won't be enough from now on. People are catching up and getting better with their characters at a very fast rate.

Gotta learn those low/mid tier MUs. Most of the characters in this game are good enough to hold their own in half or more of their high tier MUs, and even the bad characters in the game at least have threatening punish games if you don't respect what they can do. Can't just autopilot top tier stuff to win over average/mediocre chars.

 

[jespoke]

I think is designed to only actually fight for real for like 1 minute total pr match, with the rest dedicated to letting players rest from the massive tension involved in high-aura gameplay.

100%+ Lucario is the real Lucario, glasscanon extraordinaire who can kill or die off very little, getting more extreme as damage is exchanged.
The lower percent Lucario is there to make it less volatile, acting as a minigame to get some chip damage before the real fight begins and puts some more interactions in each match.

Looking at it like that, i would say the poblems with are:
- Max aura is overtuned. No matter how glass you are, that cannon is too big. This wouldn't be as big a problem if not for:
- High aura Lucario camps too well. Fighting with all you got to keep your fragile powerhouse alive is the core of the design im discribing here, so it needs the options to play keepaway. But if it is GOOD at keepaway, it is equal parts overpowered and frustrating to play against.
- Lucario lacks ways to escalate the battle if he outmatches his competition, devolving in a chip-fest. I don't know, if i was a designer or a modder i would try giving him recoil on everything or something to that effect, so that the battle will escalate to the glass cannon faceoff that should be the main part of a Lucario involved game, regardless of what side is in the advantage.