Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Ethan7]

The exact same thing but it kills 20% later. Still ridiculously disjointed, combos into itself, and singlehandedly stops certain characters from functioning.

Well, Cloud's uair has more horizontal range, deals more damage, and can be SHFF'd because of it's much better auto-cancel window.

 

[Jams.]

Rosalina usually gets brought up when discussion happens about characters being singlehandedly suppressed by Cloud, but what about Sonic? Cloud has all the tools necessary in order to stuff Sonic's kit and abuse his weaknesses, and Ally vs Wrath showcased that even a pocket Cloud can win this MU at a high level. Does a more aggressive Sonic fare better, or will Sonic require a secondary for this MU?

Anyway, it's crazy to think that Rosalina might not be good enough to win stuff. She still dominates a chunk of the roster pretty hard, but certain characters seem designed to crap on her. With the Cloud MU being pretty bad, and awful at mid level, and everyone being able to very easily pick up and play the king of sword characters... Kinda stinks to be a Rosa player at the moment. Top level Cloud vs Rosa seems more doable but definitely an uphill struggle.

Speaking as a mid level Rosa player, I don't think the MU is terrible at mid level, it just requires some practice because some things Rosa usually gets for free (juggling) require some finesse versus Cloud. She's still able to contest dair better than 90% of the cast with uair (which beats dair when spaced well) and usmash. Luma doesn't die for free if you maintain stage control and understand how far all of Cloud's moves send Luma. She also exploits his recovery incredibly well, largely because she covers his low recovery extremely easily with dair; as long as you can force him to go low, Cloud should be dead.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I'm fairly surprised no one has mentionned such amazing moves for their respective characters such as Spindash or Pikmin Throw.

 

[TDK]

Well, Cloud's uair has more horizontal range, deals more damage, and can be SHFF'd because of it's much better auto-cancel window.

doesn't kill superheavies at 80%, though...

 

[BunbUn129]

I've always assumed that "people will always complain about the current top tier" is a slippery slope fallacy, but I'm really starting to see some truth in it.

It's not so much the acknowledging a certain aspect of a character as problematic as it is the attitude towards the character. It's a hard thing to describe, but generally the "current top tier" is bashed by exaggerating their strengths and understating their weaknesses, along with trying to make it seem like they're something totally separate from the rest of the cast. Sometimes it even displaces onto player somehow, which is entirely unacceptable. Even in cases where there is actually a problem (Diddy, Sheik's 50/50, the like), this attitude is completely unproductive.

Cloud has both a poor grab game and a poor disadvantage state (mainly his recovery), two things that in most cases would instadisqualify him from the top tier club. His other tools are just that good enough to make up for it, and that's completely fine.

I don't know how, but I was legit convinced complaints would die down after Bayonetta was dealt with.

What I get from these posts now complaining about Cloud, Diddy, etc. is that there seems to be this push to get rid of every move/option that is deemed overtuned: currently those options are mainly Diddy's d tilt, Cloud's LCS, and Ryu's Shoryuken. On a side note, I was appalled to see people a while back complaining about Donkey Kong's and Bowser's KO set-ups when those characters are uncommon mid-tiers.

I guess some people are missing an important point: you can nerf all you want, but whether an option is overtuned or not is relative and thus if you nerf an overtuned option it will simply be replaced by another one. We now see complaints about Ryu, Mewtwo, Diddy etc. because with Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Meta Knight, and Bayonetta nerfed, the former group is no longer overshadowed and is thus fitting the bill for what people consider overtuned.

I hope patches are over because the game is fine as is and as a personal note I find the top-tiers already underwhelming (which is why I love watching good Ryu play).

 

[Djent]

Rosalina usually gets brought up when discussion happens about characters being singlehandedly suppressed by Cloud, but what about Sonic?

Between ZSS and Cloud, is not solo-viable. He's got it worse than Rosa, who at least has recent wins against one of her (supppsed) counters. I actually think people slightly overrate Sonic because he used to be one of the only characters who went even with Diddy and Sheik. Now, that's at less of a premium; a number of characters have close matchups against those two. Some of them also have fewer liabilities than Sonic does. I know Wrath has everyone paranoid as of late, but I really don't think this character will stay a candidate for top 5, and he may be the worst "top tier."

 

[|RK|]

I've always assumed that "people will always complain about the current top tier" is a slippery slope fallacy, but I'm really starting to see some truth in it.

It's not so much the acknowledging a certain aspect of a character as problematic as it is the attitude towards the character. It's a hard thing to describe, but generally the "current top tier" is bashed by exaggerating their strengths and understating their weaknesses, along with trying to make it seem like they're something totally separate from the rest of the cast. Sometimes it even displaces onto player somehow, which is entirely unacceptable. Even in cases where there is actually a problem (Diddy, Sheik's 50/50, the like), this attitude is completely unproductive.

Cloud has both a poor grab game and a poor disadvantage state (mainly his recovery), two things that in most cases would instadisqualify him from the top tier club. His other tools are just that good enough to make up for it, and that's completely fine.

I never got calling Cloud's grab game poor. It certainly doesn't combo into anything, but it does what it needs to - give Cloud space to charge limit and/or put you in a disadvantageous position (like above him). It doesn't directly set up to great damage, but it sets up his great damage anyways.

 

[verbatim]

given that 1.1.6 was likely the final patch Cloud is a perfectly reasonable character given the balance of the game.

There is literally no point in in discussing how too good of a character he is when players could be discussing how to actually beat him.

Sm4sh 2.0.0 tho

I'm pretty sure that if there's more patches that fg data is plenty to get cloud changed, but either way you're right.

Moving on, does anyone have any strong opinions about the Ness Cloud matchup and why? A couple of weeks ago I saw a Ness main from Michigan tear through what was more or less a platoon of Clouds in at a Chicago tour tour, using the yo-yo to gimp Clouds trying to recover and just generally killing Cloud before he got mad rage. People I've talked to online have been saying Cloud wins easily but I don't remember hearing anything about why they felt that way.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think neither Rosalina nor Sonic do that poorly against Cloud. Representants of a lot of characters initially thought they'd lose to Cloud because the character's strengths are obvious and easy to use, whereas counterplay took time to envolve.

It was well understood that Cloud had the advantage against Diddy until Zinoto started to beat M2K, now the matchup is up in the air more than ever before.
Fox was considered disadvantaged against Cloud, then Larry beat M2K's Cloud and now it's seen close to even.
Nairo losing to Tweek's 'young' Cloud shortly after release and Choco losing to somebody's Cloud [Rain I believe?] had people thinking that Cloud wins the matchup but Nairo keeps making it look even or in ZSS' favor when he plays M2K and Tweek.
The first impression of Cloud vs Sonic was that it's pretty bad but 6wx made it look somewhat close against Tweek, who is no stranger to the Sonic matchup.

Cloud's matchups are very good, don't get me wrong, but he's not unreasonable to the point where he shuts down top tier characters or beats them more than 60/40. Dabuz has also beaten Tweek, I think they're 1-1 in that specific matchup.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm more skeptic of how Sakurai genuinely called Cloud "invincible" if not for his recovery in that sourcegaming interview with Nomura.

And then proceeded to give him enviable air speed without the Limit, large and in charge aerials, a frame 4 UpB to fight gimp attempts that includes a high knockback hit is behind him as he falls down that can kill at 0 to prevent hitting from behind, and then the means to jack up all this even further with a passive mechanic that lets him ledgesnap the UpB as well.

It goes back to what I thought about Bayonetta and her frame 7 combo starters. They were supposed to be programmed with intentional flaws in mind, but were given one thing or another that partially or completely alleviates it.

I think you mixed up Bayonetta and Cloud's Up Special startups; Witch Twist is frame 4 and Climhazzard is frame 7, but with Limit, it's invincible starting on frame 5 and ending on frame 12.

 

[Mister M]

My own personal experience as a Ness main says Cloud eats him for breakfast. Clouds full hopping nairs, Dairs and bairs don't leave much for Ness to try and hit. And Ness'ground options are weaker than clouds.

Generally speaking I don't feel Ness has many direct tools for dealing with sword users who are half decent at spacing. Its up to the player to win rock paper scizzors, or eat a back air. Mean while, Cloud is free to charge limit and jump around mostly for free.

Ness is great come back potential though and a decent shot at Edge guarding him though (particularly off forward throws) so it's not that borked against him.

60:40 to cloud

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I never got calling Cloud's grab game poor. It certainly doesn't combo into anything, but it does what it needs to - give Cloud space to charge limit and/or put you in a disadvantageous position (like above him). It doesn't directly set up to great damage, but it sets up his great damage anyways.

Because you can find that "positional advantage" in any grab in the game; but the actual GOOD grabs do more than just that.

 

[verbatim]

Because you can find that "positional advantage" in any grab in the game; but the actual GOOD grabs do more than just that.

Positioning + limit charge time in Cloud's case. Obviously a combo throw would be better, but at the end of the day so long as you have a fast enough grab to insure that you don't lose to shield you're probably not a character with a "bad" grab.

 

[Trunks159]

I never got calling Cloud's grab game poor. It certainly doesn't combo into anything, but it does what it needs to - give Cloud space to charge limit and/or put you in a disadvantageous position (like above him). It doesn't directly set up to great damage, but it sets up his great damage anyways.

If that's all you want for a grab, any characters' grab will suffice.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Oh hey, Ganondorf has a bottom 3 grab.

Can has Frame 4 jumpsquat and actual disjoints?

Oh wait, I forgot that we're pretending grabs are an actual weakness on a character with no actual weaknesses.

Cloud doesn't care if you shield. He's either poking you with incredibly fast, lag less sword aerials, or he's far enough away to limit charge all day.

 

[Jams.]

I never got calling Cloud's grab game poor. It certainly doesn't combo into anything, but it does what it needs to - give Cloud space to charge limit and/or put you in a disadvantageous position (like above him). It doesn't directly set up to great damage, but it sets up his great damage anyways.

Cloud still has the third worst standing grab range in the game, and a dash grab that's deceptively short for how fast he runs. The only reason he gets so many grabs is because of how often he forces you to shield, but it's not really a great option for him. Cloud can start a tech chase/juggle/edgeguard situation with most of his moveset.

 

[Solfiner]

...Shulk has the best standing grab range of any swordie except Link and Tink? ...Huh. I always thought he had a bad case of T-rex arms but apparently my spacing with it has just been **** all this time. Good to know.


Anyways, I was watching some late 2014 and early 2015 Smash 4 tourneys and I love how the meta has evolved from that point.

 

[BunbUn129]

The point of a grab in the first place is to offer every character a tool to deal with the most basic defensive option (duh). True combos, 50-50's, KO's, and whatever a grab leads into should be viewed as icing on the cake IMO.

Fox's grab game doesn't actually hinder him, contrary to what many may say, because even though he gets very little in the way of true follow-ups discounting horrible DI, either 1) you're now above him and have to avoid his fearsome up air, which he can scare you with into air dodging only for you to get punished by that very move, or he follows your landing and hits you with an up smash 2) you're now offstage and have to risk getting hit by his up tilt, which either true combos into bair or forces you into a landing situation onstage.

However, saying Cloud's grab game isn't bad simply because "positional advantage and limit" sounds wrong (to me) or a little out of place because any successful hit gives you positional advantage (barring moves that are unsafe on hit, but those instances are rare enough). Cloud has an opportunity to charge limit after every single hit, it doesn't have to be a throw. Yes, Cloud's grab game is indeed bad, but not because of a lack of throw follow-ups and KO's, but rather due to his short grab range and sub-par frame data on it.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Sheik has top 3 ledge trapping(sheik diddy fox in no order), the second/third best edgeguarding kit in the game, top 2 frame data and the best neutral. I dunno why everyone downplays this
Sheik players were so absorbed in her "haha dthrow i kill you" setups that they didn't realize you can literally just interact with the opponent, win the engagement or run away if there's danger(because she's so goddamn slippery and difficult to hit), trap them at the ledge for 40%/death, and bully them offstage infinitely.
If a character has a bad recovery she should be killing them for recovering low/horizontally almost every time.
She may struggle killing in the conventional sense of this game by not having some random guaranteed kill at 100, but she can hit you 3 times and kill you at 40 because you lost your jump/got needled and couldn't make it back or use one of her million guaranteed bouncing fish setups(fair, nair, needles, bair, fthrow, dthrow, bthrow.....you get the point) to kill you at 120-130.
The reason there's people considering things like Cloud being the best and Sheik NOT being the best is pretty simple:
Smash 4 players suck at edgeguarding.
She will only get better as people improve at it.

I feel like edgeguarding needs to be improved on in general.

 

[DDK]

Sonic does not go anywhere near even with Cloud, and has similar issues with ZSS and Rosalina. While the other two are fairly uncommon aside from their top-level representatives, Cloud is just about everywhere now due to how easy it is (relatively speaking) to pick up the character and achieve results.

The 6WX vs. Tweek set at KTAR was the closest we've seen a top-level Sonic rep come to beating a Cloud of equal skill. I honestly believe 6WX was playing near optimally for those first 3 games (he was definitely on tilt for the last one). And although one could argue he was very close to taking all of them, I feel the end result speaks to how reliably Cloud can take stocks in the matchup and conversely, how difficult it is for Sonic to do so.

Perhaps it's just the way both characters are designed but the Cloud player can afford to make more mistakes, win neutral a couple times and secure a stock at like 80% with limit cross slash. Meanwhile the Sonic player has to nickle and dime the Cloud (which is harder than it seems due to his lack of range/disjoints and Cloud's auto cancelled aerials), and extend for a kill in the mid 100's with either Down B -> Nair, Bthrow by the ledge or a raw Bair or FSmash (most of these options requiring the Sonic player to put him or herself at risk). It doesn't matter how many times Sonic wins neutral if he can't secure the kill. This a problem Sonic has in many matchups, but it's mitigated by either his opponent's lack of reliable kill options or Sonic's ability to play defensively and bait out an unsafe response. With Cloud, he can't do this as he's always forced to maintain constant offensive pressure (which 6WX was doing in his set with Tweek), lest Cloud gets a free limit. Yes, a Sonic player can still outplay and beat a Cloud of equal skill, but has to take significantly more risks and can only afford a few mistakes in the process.

Like it or not, the prevalence of Cloud impacts Sonic's viability in the current meta. Despite having many even or winning matchups against the top tiers, having one super prevalent character as your hardest check definitely puts his solo viability into question. Sonic is still a great character and I feel his tool kit will always allow him to remain relevant due to how the character is designed to specifically take advantage of your opponent's human error. We may just be moving towards a meta where having a secondary is necessary to compete at the higher levels due to how the game is balanced.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No Sheiks use grenade ledge trap set ups.

Step it the **** up you ninja cry babies.

 

[ARISTOS]

Cloud's grab is bad, but for him being able to set your opponents into a disadvantaged position is very strong given how hard it can be to reset on a Cloud who is aiming to stuff options.

 

[Das Koopa]

Updated scores

Spoiler

Sheik: 134
Diddy Kong: 120
Cloud: 110
Fox: 89
Mario: 76.5
Sonic: 64
Zero Suit Samus: 63.5
Rosalina & Luma: 62.5
Meta Knight: 47.5
Bayonetta: 39.5
Captain Falcon: 37.5
Ryu: 37
Marth: 35
R.O.B: 32.5
Pikachu: 31
Ness: 28.5
Peach: 27
Luigi: 25
Donkey Kong: 23
Toon Link: 22.5
Greninja: 20.5
Little Mac: 22
Bowser: 19
Ike: 18.5
Lucas: 18
Robin: 18
Villager: 18
Mewtwo: 17
Duck Hunt: 17
Yoshi: 16
Corrin: 14.5
Mega Man: 12
Pit: 12
Lucario: 12
Wario: 8
Olimar: 8
Palutena: 8
Pac-Man: 8
Bowser Jr.: 7
King Dedede: 7
Wii Fit Trainer: 5
Kirby: 5
Shulk: 5
Link: 5
Mr. Game & Watch: 5
Falco: 2.5
Zelda: 2
Mii Brawler: 2

 

[soniczx123]

Between ZSS and Cloud, is not solo-viable. He's got it worse than Rosa, who at least has recent wins against one of her (supppsed) counters. I actually think people slightly overrate Sonic because he used to be one of the only characters who went even with Diddy and Sheik. Now, that's at less of a premium; a number of characters have close matchups against those two. Some of them also have fewer liabilities than Sonic does. I know Wrath has everyone paranoid as of late, but I really don't think this character will stay a candidate for top 5, and he may be the worst "top tier."

Add Fox and Megaman along with bunch of MUs with the high and top tiers which he doesn't shut characters down.

 

[Zelder]

No Sheiks use grenade ledge trap set ups.

Step it the **** up you ninja cry babies.

As usual I have no idea who you're trying to take a swipe at here, but I do agree with gist of it. Most Sheik players treat that grenade exclusively as a missed input. Though on the other hand (and this is admittedly lazy thinking), I don't really see VoiD use the grenade, and if he's not using it, then it might not be worth using, haha.

 

[BunbUn129]

Since we're talking about grab games, this video by Smash Highlights that was just released is very relevant. It measures the standing grab ranges across the cast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOXQJKrx_wQ&feature=youtu.be

Things that surprised me:

-I knew MK's and Sheik's standing grab ranges were relatively short but they're shorter than I expected.
-Robin's standing grab range, while still bad, is longer than I expected (better than Sheik!)
-Marth's standing grab range in particular surprised me because I was under the impression that it was still among the longest non-tether grabs. Turns out it's marginally longer than Falcon's.

And a spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pc2v71DroLv3AWirrmVSodw8KjgrE7nOC_Y7ByZ8vdc/edit#gid=0

Also it's interesting to see that characters like Mario, Luigi, Meta Knight, Diddy, and Sheik who rely greatly on grabs and are known for having good grab games happen to have short standing grab ranges.

 

[Luco]

Ness vs Cloud would be a winning MU for Cloud. Ness being forced to approach, he has to play the usual game of figuring out Cloud's wall before he can actually tack on damage, and Cloud juggles him way too well. That being said an interesting tidbit about this MU is that Cloud's Dair causes cloud's feet to be present in the Z-axis where they normally can't be hit, however Ness' Uair hits in all axis (do I need to stress how silly this move is?) so Ness can actually beat Cloud's Dair IF he spaces appropriately (ie is not directly under him).

IMO it's 55-45 Cloud.


Also Ness vs G&W is coming, I haven't forgotten. <3

 

[Nah]

-Robin's standing grab range, while still bad, is longer than I expected (better than Sheik!)

waitwaitwait

ROBIN has more range on her standing grab than a dozen other characters, including Sheik?

the ****

 

[Mr. Johan]

Holy hell DDD's standing grab range.

Look, I know DDD's grab was nutty in Brawl, but that's because it easily segued into chain grabs. You got rid of that Dthrow, so you didn't need to take the grab too!


RE: Robin: It's not the shortest, yeah, but he still suffers the most endlag on whiff given its range.

Compare to Palutena's, who has near identical standing grab endlag, but has among the largest non-tether grabs.

 

[ARGHETH]

-Robin's standing grab range, while still bad, is longer than I expected (better than Sheik!)

Yeah, it's only bad instead of awful.
Better than Sheik isn't really an accomplishment, considering she has bottom ten grab range.

waitwaitwait

ROBIN has more range on her standing grab than a dozen other characters, including Sheik?

the ****

Apparently, somehow.

 

[AxelVDP]

I don't know if this is actually the right place to discuss something like this but I wanted to give my 2 cents regarding the 2 stocks vs 3 stocks debate

3 Stocks being a logistical nightmare is just a rumor. If you look at 3 Stocks tournament they have no problems at all. 3 Stocks causes only a problem if the TOing is really bad or if they did a bad schedule. We have 100+ man tournaments, we do big round robin pools to 48 or 64 Man Bracket and still finish in one day (12 hours) with breaks between pools and brackets and with Top8 being on stream every single game.

While this is mostly true (for medium and moderately big tourneys) I feel like it's glossing over a few problems actually
for really small scenes where getting enough monitors and consoles is a real problem the difference in time is big and noticeable (from my experience at least), while this might not be relevant because the "real metagame" gets played at bigger tourneys, a 2 stock ruleset might still be needed in those circumstances
Also, for really big tourneys (like, EVO big) having a 3 stock ruleset implies the need to get more time allocated to that particular event, and this might not always be a feasible option

The viewer argument is non-sense because if you like this game and you have fun watching this game you should appreciate more stocks. If you don't like watching more then you probably don't care enough about the game and just want to finish it as soon as possible and those kind of people should not count into "viewer friendly".

Here I feel like you're projecting too much, I know a lot of people who really love the game but can't follow matches and the likes because they simply do not have the free time to do so, and this is just an example, there are other possible and valid motivations as to why someone might prefer matches to be shorter
disregarding their opinion and saying that tourneys should not cater to them sounds quite selfish to me

3 Stocks is a lot less consistent. One crazy read can decide a game in 2 Stocks and thus variance is promoted.
We once did Bo5 for Top8 (we usually only go Bo5 for WF LF and GF) and almost every set ended 3:0

I hear this argument a lot, and yes, obviously there's more possible variance in a 2 stock scenario
but is it really that significant (considering we don't play bo1)? does it really hinder the competitiveness that much?
to me this argument would require actual statistical evidence to be considered something important to be accounted for
so far, from what I've seen from Zero's TOTAL DOMINATION, the bigger "variance" does not look to be creating an enviroment where results are somewhat random (but again, even this is just anedoctal and not decisive evidence)
also, having longer sets means that players get more tired during the tourney (and this could affect their performance)

probably gets boosted by 2 stocks as well, because one limit cross slash at the right time and you win the game or at least half of it.

I can't really say, but for characters like Wario and LittleMac having more stocks is actually better because they get more chances to play their trumpcard, couldn't a similar reasoning apply here as well?

I personally do not care whether the game gets to be played in a 3 stock format or not, I like the game anyway, it's just that I feel like most arguments used to defend either position follow quite a faulty logic and do not provide REAL evidence


re: cloud grab game
(functional) grabs (aka almost every grab but pacman's, basically) cannot be "bad" in a general term because they are a tool that beats shield, whether you get huge reward out of it or just positional advantage they condition the opponent to do something other than sit in shield, and this is hugely important
they can be "bad" COMPARED to other grabs though, and this is why Cloud grab is "bad"

 

[ぱみゅ]

The problem with Robin's grab is not its range, but how unsafe it is.
Sheik could almost throw two grabs before Robin's first one ends.

 

[blackghost]

I don't know how, but I was legit convinced complaints would die down after Bayonetta was dealt with.

What I get from these posts now complaining about Cloud, Diddy, etc. is that there seems to be this push to get rid of every move/option that is deemed overtuned: currently those options are mainly Diddy's d tilt, Cloud's LCS, and Ryu's Shoryuken. On a side note, I was appalled to see people a while back complaining about Donkey Kong's and Bowser's KO set-ups when those characters are uncommon mid-tiers.

I guess some people are missing an important point: you can nerf all you want, but whether an option is overtuned or not is relative and thus if you nerf an overtuned option it will simply be replaced by another one. We now see complaints about Ryu, Mewtwo, Diddy etc. because with Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Meta Knight, and Bayonetta nerfed, the former group is no longer overshadowed and is thus fitting the bill for what people consider overtuned.

I hope patches are over because the game is fine as is and as a personal note I find the top-tiers already underwhelming (which is why I love watching good Ryu play).

based on personal experience bayonetta complaints are eternal.

 

[Trifroze]

Shouldn't Cloud, like, start actually winning tournaments before we call him the best already?

If we're judging characters only based on big wins, then Mario and Mewtwo are the best two characters in the game and everyone else is below them. Sheik, Diddy and ZSS are not the characters they were when they got their major wins and it's pointless to pretend that those victories are relevant anymore, just as it's pointless to pretend that Mario and Mewtwo are the best two characters in the game.

There's probably an upper single digit number of characters who can win a large tournament, yet none of them have a good chance of doing it without a secondary, and it's just a matter of who happens to do it when a major actually takes place. Cloud is the most efficient character, so it's reasonable to argue that he's the best, although I still think the same goes for Diddy.

 

[Zelder]

Wario is artificially boosted by a 2 stock meta, because the waft usually kicks in right around the the last stock at high-ish percents. It's a personal irritation of mine.

 

[Ninety]

Honestly sometimes I feel Sakurai designed Robin by taking a Completely Average Character template, gave him some great specials and aerials, and then panicked and just started throwing weaknesses at random into him until he was "balanced"-

 

[FullMoon]

Since we're talking about grab games, this video by Smash Highlights that was just released is very relevant. It measures the standing grab ranges across the cast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOXQJKrx_wQ&feature=youtu.be

Things that surprised me:

-I knew MK's and Sheik's standing grab ranges were relatively short but they're shorter than I expected.
-Robin's standing grab range, while still bad, is longer than I expected (better than Sheik!)
-Marth's standing grab range in particular surprised me because I was under the impression that it was still among the longest non-tether grabs. Turns out it's marginally longer than Falcon's.

And a spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pc2v71DroLv3AWirrmVSodw8KjgrE7nOC_Y7ByZ8vdc/edit#gid=0

Also it's interesting to see that characters like Mario, Luigi, Meta Knight, Diddy, and Sheik who rely greatly on grabs and are known for having good grab games happen to have short standing grab ranges.

Huh, Greninja has the longest non-tether (or tether-ish depending on what you think of Olimar, Villager and Yoshi's) grab, it beats out even the heavies.

I'm not entirely surprised by it but that's nice to know.

 

[Blobface]

I never got calling Cloud's grab game poor. It certainly doesn't combo into anything, but it does what it needs to - give Cloud space to charge limit and/or put you in a disadvantageous position (like above him). It doesn't directly set up to great damage, but it sets up his great damage anyways.

I mean, Cloud does get some reward off his grab. It's not like he pulls a muscle as he throws you and damages himself or anything, but he still doesn't get much reward relative to the rest of the cast. Bottom line is, Cloud's grab reward no matter how you look at it is considerably lower than most of the cast.

On that topic most U-throws are underrated and need to be used more.

 

[TDK]

Updated scores

Spoiler

Sheik: 134
Diddy Kong: 120
Cloud: 110
Fox: 89
Mario: 76.5
Sonic: 64
Zero Suit Samus: 63.5
Rosalina & Luma: 62.5
Meta Knight: 47.5
Bayonetta: 39.5
Captain Falcon: 37.5
Ryu: 37
Marth: 35
R.O.B: 32.5
Pikachu: 31
Ness: 28.5
Peach: 27
Luigi: 25
Donkey Kong: 23
Toon Link: 22.5
Greninja: 20.5
Little Mac: 22
Bowser: 19
Ike: 18.5
Lucas: 18
Robin: 18
Villager: 18
Mewtwo: 17
Duck Hunt: 17
Yoshi: 16
Corrin: 14.5
Mega Man: 12
Pit: 12
Lucario: 12
Wario: 8
Olimar: 8
Palutena: 8
Pac-Man: 8
Bowser Jr.: 7
King Dedede: 7
Wii Fit Trainer: 5
Kirby: 5
Shulk: 5
Link: 5
Mr. Game & Watch: 5
Falco: 2.5
Zelda: 2
Mii Brawler: 2

I'm really surprised by a lack of Corrin and PAC-MAN, and also surprised by the huge amount of Marth and Peach. Maybe they are high tiers after all?

 

[Strong-Arm]

It cracks me up how much overexaggeration happens in smash 4 in general. People are quick to claim that a move is busted, or a character is unbeatable or trash, etc. This game is extremely well balanced as of now and people gotta chill out for a sec. We have no idea where the meta will go from here.
I feel like we will get another patch, but I think its toxic to keep thinking in terms of "till the next patch" mentality. Also several characters in this game are comically underrated by the majority or overrated lol