Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ぱみゅ]

Who needs setups in low-mid level when the opponents are always running to you and you can just intercept approaches with Usmash?

Mario has amazing burst range, his initial dash into stuff is great, as well as his shorthop options.
But past that immediate range, Mario can be pretty slow and that's where you beat it.
That's how Wrath beat Ally.

 

[Yikarur]

This could definitely be a part of it. It's a lot harder to be consistent with less stocks.

But 3 stock tournaments are a logistical nightmare. At least when there's 100s of entrants. Less viewer friendly as well.

3 Stocks being a logistical nightmare is just a rumor. If you look at 3 Stocks tournament they have no problems at all. 3 Stocks causes only a problem if the TOing is really bad or if they did a bad schedule. We have 100+ man tournaments, we do big round robin pools to 48 or 64 Man Bracket and still finish in one day (12 hours) with breaks between pools and brackets and with Top8 being on stream every single game.
The viewer argument is non-sense because if you like this game and you have fun watching this game you should appreciate more stocks. If you don't like watching more then you probably don't care enough about the game and just want to finish it as soon as possible and those kind of people should not count into "viewer friendly".

3 Stocks is a lot less consistent. One crazy read can decide a game in 2 Stocks and thus variance is promoted.
We once did Bo5 for Top8 (we usually only go Bo5 for WF LF and GF) and almost every set ended 3:0

probably gets boosted by 2 stocks as well, because one limit cross slash at the right time and you win the game or at least half of it.
Cloud seems to be the strongest character right now. I could imagine that he goes +2 with half of the cast, because of his ridiculous strengths. His recovery is not a problem because with limit active he has 5% more air speed than Yoshi while being able to cover him completely with aerials and thus he can almost always recover safely without even using his UpB. If you learn to DI non-lethal hits up you can almost always recover with your speed and DJ alone.

Cloud's stats with limit are insane. Combine that with a frame 4 jump squad, lagless aerials and huge hitboxes and I'd say Limit Cloud is by far the best character in this game.
Thats why I don't understand why people are throwing their Limit away when their opponent is at low% because 26% of one cross slash is easily archived by doing 2-3 upairs/nairs as well.

Personally this character ruins the game for me right now. Everytime I beat someone badly Game 1 they switch to Cloud and give me a hard time. Last weekend I lost Game 1 to a Cloud (even though he's maining a different character), then I went Cloud myself and 2 stocked his Cloud and then his main (DK). It was a really dumb feeling.

This pocket Cloud thing happens all the time and a character of this pure strength shouldn't be that easy to play

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Shouldn't Cloud, like, start actually winning tournaments before we call him the best already?

 

[outfoxd]

I think we're on a "give it time" inevitability trip in regards to a Cloud tournament win.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Did we give Bayo time to win anything big before deeming her broken? Not saying Cloud is on Bayo's level, but his tools are extremely suspect.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Limit Cross Slash is the best move in the game.

 

[outfoxd]

I just call it the Punish Button.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Limit Cross Slash is the best move in the game.

Diddy Kong's dtilt would like to have a word with you.

 

[Yikarur]

Limit Cross Slash is by far the best stand-alone move in the game.

 

[HoSmash4]

Diddy Kong's dtilt would like to have a word with you.

Limit Cross Slash is the best move in the game.

Doesnt matter. They're both safe to throw out and compliment their respective characters gameplan a lot. Counterplay? The only counterplay for these moves is if the players are extremely predictable.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Witch time is also a decent contender for best move in the game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Witch time is also a decent contender for best move in the game.

*Rolls up newspaper*

NO!!!

NOO!!!!

*Smacks ShadowGuy1*

BAD!!!! VERY VERY BAD!!!!!

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Diddy Kong's dtilt would like to have a word with you.

Diddy dtilt and Cloud LCS are both incredibly safe moves that can lead into death. The difference? Diddy dtilt can't be used out of a dash, can't be used as a reversible aerial, and doesn't lead to kills until well above 100 percent without rage. LCS does all those things, only it kills as early as 60-70 depending on ledge proximity.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Diddy dtilt and Cloud LCS are both incredibly safe moves that can lead into death. The difference? Diddy dtilt can't be used out of a dash, can't be used as a reversible aerial, and doesn't lead to kills until well above 100 percent without rage. LCS does all those things, only it kills as early as 60-70 depending on ledge proximity.

Also can be used in untech ledge traps.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

*Rolls up newspaper*

NO!!!

NOO!!!!

*Smacks ShadowGuy1*

BAD!!!! VERY VERY BAD!!!!!

*Cries in the corner of shame with half the quotes typed in this thread*

At least this is a good discussion point unlike comparing other games so smash 4, which I felt was just w waste of time.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Diddy dtilt and Cloud LCS are both incredibly safe moves that can lead into death. The difference? Diddy dtilt can't be used out of a dash, can't be used as a reversible aerial, and doesn't lead to kills until well above 100 percent without rage. LCS does all those things, only it kills as early as 60-70 depending on ledge proximity.

Whereas Diddy's dtilt doesn't need to be charged, sets up at least three different ways to get guaranteed kills starting 90% [fsmash near the ledge] until 130% [dtilt -> usmash], cannot be 'wasted' like LCS can and comboes into big damage dealers like grab -> pummel -> uthrow -> aerials. That's not even accounting for the fact that it can also be comboed into from a 100% non-commital item toss move because one could rightfully argue that should be attributed to banana toss rather than dtilt itself. It's still a perfectly safe move in neutral that can be used at any time, lead to similar amounts of damage as LCS does and set up kills at various percents.

I agree that both moves are incredibly dumb but I think it should be clear that Diddy's dtilt is broken enough to challenge the claim that LCS is the single best move in the game.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

*Cries in the corner of shame with half the quotes typed in this thread*

At least this is a good discussion point unlike comparing other games so smash 4, which I felt was just w waste of time.

It wasn't a waste of time imo. Discussion of how the games as whole interacted based on the meta of characters, game mechanics and stuff is pretty interesting.

 

[Rizen]

Diddy's Dtilt hits frames 4-5 and ends on 19; that's crazy.

About the Bowser crisis thing, why weren't people freaking out about DK? He has better frame data and mobility than Bowser and Ding dong. DK seems better than Bowser but gets largely ignored. I was watching Larry Lurr use DK vs Tyrant and DK can be scary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FPAH4YEP0Y&list=PLsoSl1w33CKTymwhsPdUAZwB2oeCh9mYH&index=23

 

[Blobface]

Cloud really shouldn't gain limit from taking damage. For a character who's biggest weakness is recovery, it makes no sense whatsoever for him to recover easier because you hit him.

 

[Yikarur]

Thats how limit originally works though.
He shouldn't gain limit for his own damage and limit charge should take a lot longer so it's risky to only rely on the charge. And limit charge cancel should receive ending lag similar to Mii Brawlers Ultimate Uppercut.

This changes alone would probably be enough to let his moveset stay the way it is for now.

 

[blackghost]

the issue with cloud is how lottle effirt it takes to recieve results. everyone either can or does already play the character. essentially i remember people claiming how bayo would "take over the meta" and was "extremely easy to use" but it never even came close to happening. now we have a character who os dominating doubles (and i say that because hes either on both teams to start or the losing team adds him after game 1 a lot of the time) and doing very well in singles (ktar 4 clouds in top i think).
at locals cloud is literally everywhere and while most characters in smash 4 have a least one clear flaw cloud doesnt have many clear ones (dont say recovery). and overall ive heard cloud decribed as sword shiek, good marth, and fast ike.
this character will be the number one threat in tournment play now. if you cant beat a decent one then your tournament runs are limited

 

[Emblem Lord]

Super Saiya-jin Marth.

IMO.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The issue with Cloud is ... wait, there isn't actually an issue with Cloud. He's just a very good character.

Heaven forbid!

 

[HoSmash4]

The issue with Cloud is ... wait, there isn't actually an issue with Cloud. He's just a very good character.

Heaven forbid!

Exact reason he should be nerfed

 

[Lhivorde]

The issue with Cloud is ... wait, there isn't actually an issue with Cloud. He's just a very good character.

Heaven forbid!

There are dozens of issues with Cloud. He simply doesn't play by the same rules much of the cast does. All of his big moves are almost unpunishable and his absolute lack of lag is absurd. Some other characters have similar atributes, but they don't also have enormous disjoints and ridiculous kill power. Most characters have some sort of trade-offs for their strengths, and it has been shown many times that despite his "poor" recovery, Cloud's strengths are so overwhelming it really doesn't matter.

Imagine Little Mac. Now imagine him with a air game as good as his ground game. And now make him as fast as Yoshi in the air. That's Cloud. He's pants-on-head-******** strong.

(This isn't to say that other top-tier characters aren't similarly busted.)

 

[Shady Shaymin]

There are dozens of issues with Cloud. He simply doesn't play by the same rules much of the cast does. All of his big moves are almost unpunishable and his absolute lack of lag is absurd. Some other characters have similar atributes, but they don't also have enormous disjoints and ridiculous kill power. Most characters have some sort of trade-offs for their strengths, and it has been shown many times that despite his "poor" recovery, Cloud's strengths are so overwhelming it really doesn't matter.

Imagine Little Mac. Now imagine him with a air game as good as his ground game. And now make him as fast as Yoshi in the air. That's Cloud. He's pants-on-head-******** strong.

(This isn't to say that other top-tier characters aren't similarly busted.)

Who else in this game is as oppressive in every game state as Cloud? Every other character in the top tier has manageable jank balanced out by manageable setbacks. Cloud is one big cacophony of bull**** balanced out by one pseudo-achilles' heel that barely affects his viability at all.

And before all the pocket cloud warriors jump on me for daring to suggest that he's a little bit busted, I don't actually care if he gets nerfed or not and I anticipate that he won't. I still maintain that Limit Cross Slash should not exist in this game, let alone on a character as mobile, versatile and universally functional as Cloud.

 

[Kofu]

There are dozens of issues with Cloud. He simply doesn't play by the same rules much of the cast does. All of his big moves are almost unpunishable and his absolute lack of lag is absurd. Some other characters have similar atributes, but they don't also have enormous disjoints and ridiculous kill power. Most characters have some sort of trade-offs for their strengths, and it has been shown many times that despite his "poor" recovery, Cloud's strengths are so overwhelming it really doesn't matter.

Imagine Little Mac. Now imagine him with a air game as good as his ground game. And now make him as fast as Yoshi in the air. That's Cloud. He's pants-on-head-******** strong.

(This isn't to say that other top-tier characters aren't similarly busted.)

Wait, did you just compare Cloud's ground game to Mac's?

Hahaha no.

 

[Ulevo]

There are no issues with Cloud. In a world where perfect balance is possible and can be expected you can have such a discussion, but given that 1.1.6 was likely the final patch Cloud is a perfectly reasonable character given the balance of the game.

There is literally no point in in discussing how too good of a character he is when players could be discussing how to actually beat him.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Whats funny about Cloud is that people dont abuse his weaknesses enough. If he doesnt have limit and is off stage against certain characters the cloud player really should be dead. His grab is poor as well and he lacks actual set ups outside of abusing bad DI or people not shield or teching. When off stage w/o limit he has very few options he can actually do and its amazing how many people just refuse to go off stage and deal with him. Limit Break up B doesnt have a second hitbox after the first hit (the rising hit doesnt have one) so theres another thing that could be abused. Cloud doesnt have any true combos after like 30% either. While I think Cloud is good for sure I stand on the fence of "This character is really good but it feels like people just dont abuse his weaknesses enough" This is true at high lvl play sure (This is why you dont really see Cloud winning much) But at lower levels of play he completely bodies everyone who doesnt actually know how to handle him or abuse his weaknesses.

Cloud is good, I dont think hes the best tho. People need to start abusing his flaws which are apparent.

 

[Vyrnx]

Shoryuken is probably the best move in the game atm

Some characters have moves that standalone are only extremely good, but combined with some of their other moves become some of the very best. Fox's uair is extremely good, but then combined with his utilt, now you can't air dodge his uair at certain heights or you will get utilted and killed/juggled again. And Fox's utilt is amazing, standalone, but again, especially combined with his uair (and perfect pivot). His uair and utilt are probably the best duo of moves in the game.

There's also Mewtwo's fair, Mario's usmash, arguably flip kick, bouncing fish, and Ness's grab. Honestly the list of potential moves isn't that long. But most of the moves listed just don't really contest Shoryuken.

Best move discussion isn't particularly useful mostly because people have different definitions of what counts, what contributes, etc, but it is interesting.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Shoryuken is probably the best move in the game atm

Some characters have moves that standalone are only extremely good, but combined with some of their other moves become some of the very best. Fox's uair is extremely good, but then combined with his utilt, now you can't air dodge his uair at certain heights or you will get utilted and killed/juggled again. And Fox's utilt is amazing, standalone, but again, especially combined with his uair (and perfect pivot). His uair and utilt are probably the best duo of moves in the game.

There's also Mewtwo's fair, Mario's usmash, arguably flip kick, bouncing fish, and Ness's grab. Honestly the list of potential moves isn't that long. But most of the moves listed just don't really contest Shoryuken.

Best move discussion isn't particularly useful mostly because people have different definitions of what counts, what contributes, etc, but it is interesting.

lolno

Yeah yeah i main ryu w/e.

The move has a clear cut purpose and weaknesses. It is not spammable. It is not safe on block. It kills people. That's its only real function besides being his vertical recovery tool.

Is it the best kill move? Yes. Best tool overall? You are smoking crack.

 

[Ethan7]

So what strengths make Mega Man so good? Or is he even good?

 

[Blobface]

I've always assumed that "people will always complain about the current top tier" is a slippery slope fallacy, but I'm really starting to see some truth in it.

It's not so much the acknowledging a certain aspect of a character as problematic as it is the attitude towards the character. It's a hard thing to describe, but generally the "current top tier" is bashed by exaggerating their strengths and understating their weaknesses, along with trying to make it seem like they're something totally separate from the rest of the cast. Sometimes it even displaces onto player somehow, which is entirely unacceptable. Even in cases where there is actually a problem (Diddy, Sheik's 50/50, the like), this attitude is completely unproductive.

Cloud has both a poor grab game and a poor disadvantage state (mainly his recovery), two things that in most cases would instadisqualify him from the top tier club. His other tools are just that good enough to make up for it, and that's completely fine.

 

[PK Gaming]

Yeah, put me under the "doesn't mind 1.16 Cloud" group

He's strong, but not overwhelmingly so. He isn't dominating tournaments and he isn't granting players fraudulent wins. If anything, pocket Cloud helps players who use mid tier characters get farther in tournaments.

 

[TDK]

While we're doing this, I think Rosa's up air is the best move in the game.

Kills stupidly early, massive disjoint, combos into itself, invalidates certain characters on its own.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I'm more skeptic of how Sakurai genuinely called Cloud "invincible" if not for his recovery in that sourcegaming interview with Nomura.

And then proceeded to give him enviable air speed without the Limit, large and in charge aerials, a frame 4 UpB to fight gimp attempts that includes a high knockback hit is behind him as he falls down that can kill at 0 to prevent hitting from behind, and then the means to jack up all this even further with a passive mechanic that lets him ledgesnap the UpB as well.

It goes back to what I thought about Bayonetta and her frame 7 combo starters. They were supposed to be programmed with intentional flaws in mind, but were given one thing or another that partially or completely alleviates it.

 

[Vyrnx]

lolno

Yeah yeah i main ryu w/e.

The move has a clear cut purpose and weaknesses. It is not spammable. It is not safe on block. It kills people. That's its only real function besides being his vertical recovery tool.

Is it the best kill move? Yes. Best tool overall? You are smoking crack.

The move is busted. Multiple f2 and f3 moves that combo into it, gives him by far the best punish game of anyone, gives him by far the most threatening option throughout a match at all times. It isn't hard to land--you can talk about Ryu's intricacies, his footsies and pokes, things that barely exist in this game, how much he has to commit to everything (which is untrue), how overrated every move he has is--and while you are doing that, Trela will be somewhere destroying people, landing Shoryukens left and right like he always does. We're just fooling ourselves when we discount everything Ryu has.

 

[Ethan7]

While we're doing this, I think Rosa's up air is the best move in the game.

Kills stupidly early, massive disjoint, combos into itself, invalidates certain characters on its own.

How good is Rosa's up-air without Luma?

 

[TDK]

How good is Rosa's up-air without Luma?

The exact same thing but it kills 20% later. Still ridiculously disjointed, combos into itself, and singlehandedly stops certain characters from functioning.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The move is busted. Multiple f2 and f3 moves that combo into it, gives him by far the best punish game of anyone, gives him by far the most threatening option throughout a match at all times. It isn't hard to land--you can talk about Ryu's intricacies, his footsies and pokes, things that barely exist in this game, how much he has to commit to everything (which is untrue), how overrated every move he has is--and while you are doing that, Trela will be somewhere destroying people, landing Shoryukens left and right like he always does. We're just fooling ourselves when we discount everything Ryu has.

Seems your mind is convinced.

Good talk.