Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TDK]

That last game was really boring.

Incidentally, are there any good Shulks in here? How's Shulk vs Mario?

 

[Djent]

ZeRo seems determined to challenge ESAM's title for "worst against Mario."

 

[JustSomeScrub]

That frankly proves my point if anything. The relative lack of really incredible autocancel aerials in Smash 4 makes existing practical ones an asset. And none of the really good autocancel aerials you mentioned are anywhere *near* as good as Brawl autocancel aerials. Mario's B-air in particular will whiff a lot more against short characters in this game for instance, while in Brawl, his rising SH B-air hit short characters pretty easily. Overall, there are far fewer options in Smash 4 that are hyper dominant in neutral.

Spacing matters in Melee. Marth and Jiggs are ridiculously incredible at it and essentially invalidate some characters as a result because of how consistently they can wall. As I stated, hitboxes are INCREDIBLY generous in Melee, which either results in oppressive walling or a game where very broad reads suffice for playing neutral.

You are comparing a Brawl top tier with a Smash 4 mid tier. Terrible example.

Look at the actual top tiers of both games. The aerials are very much comparable. You can't tell me with a straight face the likes of Cloud doesn't have aerials that are just as good as what the Brawl top tiers have.

 

[Ninety]

And Ally takes the reset and beats ZeRo again. Bummer. Props to him, though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You are comparing a Brawl top tier with a Smash 4 mid tier. Terrible example.

Look at the actual top tiers of both games. The aerials are very much comparable. You can't tell me with a straight face the likes of Cloud doesn't have aerials that are just as good as what the Brawl top tiers have.

It's a great example because a "bad" Brawl character has BETTER hitboxes than a good Smash 4 character.

Hitboxes in Brawl and Melee are stupid.

Cloud is essentially a Melee character that doesn't need to waveland or L-cancel. He is an anti-meta EXCEPTION to the high tiers, however even he has blind spots diagonally above him. Not surprising though that M2K mains Cloud though.

 

[|RK|]

Sorry, I have no idea which stream you are all watching.

...

I'm guessing Zero lost again.

Im also kind of annoyed if he is picking up Cloud in any form. Stick to Diddy and Sheik man, leave Cloud to M2K.

And yeah if I had to choose Mario nerfs, I would want slightly more end lag on u smash and up air.

Random thought compilation.

Well, future sight, he didn't lose yet. Now he's lost, but we were hype because they KOd each other at the same time and had to play out a tiebreaker round - one stock 3 minutes. ZeRo had the lead, but Ally got an upair chain into fair on an airdodge read to win the tiebreaker.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

It's a great example because a "bad" Brawl character has BETTER hitboxes than a good Smash 4 character.

Hitboxes in Brawl and Melee are stupid.

If we are discussing low tiers or mid tiers in both games you'd be right.

But as far as TOP tier character goes the aerials are comparable in both games. Look at Smash 4 Cloud, Diddy, Sheik etc.

And even if you were right, less options does not mean the game is harder, if anything that makes it easier.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If we are discussing low tiers or mid tiers in both games you'd be right.

But as far as TOP tier character goes the aerials are comparable in both games. Look at Smash 4 Cloud, Diddy, Sheik etc.

And even if you were right, less options does not mean the game is harder, if anything that makes it easier.

you want to compare top tiers to top tiers?

BRAWL MK AND SNAKE AND ICS

WHAT. THE. ****

Cloud, Diddy and Sheik got NOTHING on that. Those Brawl characters press buttons and you DON'T CHALLENGE THEM EVER.

Furthermore, Smash 4 got nothing on Fox/Falco rushdown, Marth and Jiggs free spacing.

And meanwhile, a bad character in Brawl like Mario, has better hitboxes than his Smash 4 incarnation who is supposedly high tier.

All of this is proving my point.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

SHULK vs Mario is a headache for Shulk, zero made the right choice of not going shulk in that set. Shulk can space out Mario relatively well, but once Mario breaks shulks spacing, it's done. I wouldn't say it's too bad, but it's a losing matchup for shulk

 

[FallofBrawl]

You are comparing a Brawl top tier with a Smash 4 mid tier. Terrible example.

Look at the actual top tiers of both games. The aerials are very much comparable. You can't tell me with a straight face the likes of Cloud doesn't have aerials that are just as good as what the Brawl top tiers have.

>Mario Smash 4 midtier

Anyway, in regards to aerials, brawl aerials had better ACs, hitboxes, damage, everything. The only really comparable smash 4 character with those traits may be Cloud's, but even then it isnt even comparable to Brawl top tiers aerial superiority

About Shulk: What does Shulk have to combat good cqc?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Cloud might have hitboxes the size of a Melee character, but unlike top tiers in Melee and Brawl, he has ACTUAL blindspots.

As Dr Mario, I can literally SH N-air at Cloud, and he has trouble anti-airing this reactively when it high profiles his tilts and DA, and outspeeds his F-air and B-air handily. He can obviously anti-air with rising SH N-air, but that is very high commitment, meaning he isn't going to want to do that against grounded opponents.

That's just one example. But most characters in general have nowhere near the generous hitboxes they had in previous games. Cloud somewhat goes against the meta being the closest thing there is to a Melee character, but still, actual Melee and Brawl top tiers were unimaginably insane in comparison and by far better at autopiloting.

 

[Pyr]

>Mario Smash 4 midtier

Anyway, in regards to aerials, brawl aerials had better ACs, hitboxes, damage, everything. The only really comparable smash 4 character with those traits may be Cloud's, but even then it isnt even comparable to Brawl top tiers aerial superiority

About Shulk: What does Shulk have to combat good cqc?

Shout out to Brawl Marth's 8 frame (iirc) landing lag Nair/Fair/UpAir.

Oh, and Snake's up-tilt.

Oh, and MK frame 2, 13 total frame, up-air.

Oh, and Falco's Neutral-B and Dash-Attack.

Oh, and literally the entire kit of Olimar.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Shout out to Brawl Marth's 8 frame (iirc) landing lag Nair/Fair/UpAir.

Oh, and Snake's up-tilt.

Oh, and MK frame 2, 13 total frame, up-air.

Oh, and Falco's Neutral-B and Dash-Attack.

Oh, and literally the entire kit of Olimar.

Marth's F-air had so little landing lag he could always Up-B before buffered shieldgrab smh.

Oh yeah, speaking of MK U-air, reminds me how I was the first person to point out back in Brawl era that you could buffer SH U-air out of shield without tilt stick by doing light upwards control stick inputs.

Falco's DA was...good. But have you seen that B-air? frame 4, intangible, lingered forever, invalidated Captain Falcon by itself.

 

[C0rvus]

Cloud might have hitboxes the size of a Melee character, but unlike top tiers in Melee and Brawl, he has ACTUAL blindspots.

As Dr Mario, I can literally SH N-air at Cloud, and he has trouble anti-airing this reactively when it high profiles his tilts and DA, and outspeeds his F-air and B-air handily. He can obviously anti-air with rising SH N-air, but that is very high commitment, meaning he isn't going to want to do that against grounded opponents.

That's just one example. But most characters in general have nowhere near the generous hitboxes they had in previous games. Cloud somewhat goes against the meta being the closest thing there is to a Melee character, but still, actual Melee and Brawl top tiers were unimaginably insane in comparison and by far better at autopiloting.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but why would Cloud be anti-airing a grounded opponent exactly? Couldn't he also back away and Cross Slash? Or up tilt in some manner? Reverse nair is likely among the best options, but by no means his only answer to a short hop nair from Doc. Cloud does have kind of a blind spot in front of himself, but in neutral his movement ought to make up for that in many cases.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

>Mario Smash 4 midtier

Anyway, in regards to aerials, brawl aerials had better ACs, hitboxes, damage, everything. The only really comparable smash 4 character with those traits may be Cloud's, but even then it isnt even comparable to Brawl top tiers aerial superiority

About Shulk: What does Shulk have to combat good cqc?

Shulks shield art is a godsend for combos not working, contrary to popular belief. Marios combos don't even work until 30%, but it's mid percents where Marios combos get deadly. Most of bayonettas combos pre patch flat out didn't even work on shield art, so I would say shield art is very useful to avoid combos. However, getting into shulks zone is bad for shulk for the most part, but he has jab, airslash out of shield( yes this can work), and holding shield in general to combat cqc.

Yeah getting in close to shulk isn't good for the most part

 

[Nobie]

I don't think "This character has a magical intangible frame 1 move" is a good argument for why Melee's neutral is harder.

I think one big difference between Melee and Smash 4 neutral is that in Melee you're encouraged to throw out lots of generous hitboxes because you can wall really well. In Smash 4 the decision to not attack is often important,

 

[Kofu]

Man, I'm starting to lowkey hate Mario's usmash. Such a dumb move.

It's definitely a dumb move and can frame trap landings thanks to its size, but people need story stop trying to fall near Mario and counterattack when he charges it. The amount of kills that come from that is really dumb to me.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

After a year's worth of the same player winning tournaments with the same character, y'all are complaining about upsets. I'm done.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but why would Cloud be anti-airing a grounded opponent exactly? Couldn't he also back away and Cross Slash? Or up tilt in some manner? Reverse nair is likely among the best options, but by no means his only answer to a short hop nair from Doc. Cloud does have kind of a blind spot in front of himself, but in neutral his movement ought to make up for that in many cases.

The point is, Cloud can't autopilot neutral.

He has to first analyze which way they will approach at him. He has GOOD ANSWERS so he's a good character. But no, he can't autopilot neutral like Brawl MK, ICs, Snake, Falco, etc. Or Melee Falco, Fox, Marth, Jiggs. Actual good characters in those Smash games COULD autopilot neutral.

If say Doc does nothing punishable in neutral, Cloud either has to grab or retreat to cover approach options from Doc without committing. Or he could take a risk, which is not ideal. When Doc approaches Cloud from the air, even Cloud has enough blind spots that he has to make some reads to answer it, rather than autopiloting it mindlessly or on reaction. If Cloud retreats too much, obviously he runs out of space, which isn't ideal either.

Brawl MK threw out F-airs and D-airs, and you did NOTHING to challenge it. ICs threw Blizzard and made everyone cry. Fox and Falco when they touch your shield, they don't need to make any hard decisions to stay safe after doing so. Cloud has great hitboxes unlike most Smash 4 characters but STILL has some blind spots.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

We are not discussing which top tiers are better, just comparing the aerials. So bringing up Snake is shooting yourself in the foot. You absolutely could not use Snake's aerials to approach in Brawl.

And once again you are delusional if you think less options=more depth. That's less to worry about. Less to develop counter play for. That makes Smash 4 easier not harder.

The point is, Cloud can't autopilot neutral.

He has to first analyze which way they will approach at him. He has GOOD ANSWERS so he's a good character. But no, he can't autopilot neutral like Brawl MK, ICs, Snake, Falco, etc. Or Melee Falco, Fox, Marth, Jiggs. Actual good characters in those Smash games COULD autopilot neutral.

If say Doc does nothing punishable in neutral, Cloud either has to grab or retreat to cover approach options from Doc without committing. Or he could take a risk, which is not ideal. When Doc approaches Cloud from the air, even Cloud has enough blind spots that he has to make some reads to answer it, rather than autopiloting it mindlessly or on reaction. If Cloud retreats too much, obviously he runs out of space, which isn't ideal either.

Once again you are showing your insane bias. Cloud's neutral is very much autopilot if the Brawl top tiers are. A lot of his aerials are BETTER than what several Brawl top tiers have. Look at his ridiculous dair that autocancels for instance. I've definitely seen top Clouds use that very liberally and win sets. Everyone knew they were using them freely but it's just very hard to punish.

 

[Pyr]

We are not discussing which top tiers are better, just comparing the aerials. So bringing up Snake is shooting yourself in the foot. You absolutely could not use Snake's aerials to approach in Brawl.

And once again you are delusional if you think less options=more depth. That's less to worry about. Less to develop counter play for. That makes Smash 4 easier not harder.

You're like a book for fallacies. Anecdotal arguments... Cherry-picking specific things and not addressing anything else... Are you going to actually have a discussion here, or do you refuse any viewpoint other then your own?

Edit: a word

 

[SaltyKracka]

Sweet crap can we just get off of this "comparing Smash games" topic?

It's far outlived its purpose, has turned incredibly toxic, and is much better suited for another thread where it doesn't muddy discussion of the current game.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

You're like a book for fallacies. Anecdotal arguments... Cherry-picking specific things and not addressing anything else... Are you going to actually have a discussion here, or do you refuse any viewpoint other then your own?

Edit: a word

This is coming from a guy agreeing with someone that called Melee's neutral simple and easy. You might want to consider your stance for a moment.

And my argument was always about the aerials, nothing else. Your failure to comprehend does not mean I'm cherry picking.

 

[A2ZOMG]

We are not discussing which top tiers are better, just comparing the aerials. So bringing up Snake is shooting yourself in the foot. You absolutely could not use Snake's aerials to approach in Brawl.

And once again you are delusional if you think less options=more depth. That's less to worry about. Less to develop counter play for. That makes Smash 4 easier not harder.



Once again you are showing your insane bias. Cloud's neutral is very much autopilot if the Brawl top tiers are. A lot of his aerials are BETTER than what several Brawl top tiers have. Look at his ridiculous dair that autocancels for instance. I've definitely seen top Clouds use that very liberally and win sets. Everyone knew they were using them freely but it's just very hard to punish.

Snake could do 2 B-airs in a short hop iirc. That's better than basically what the entire Smash 4 cast can do honestly.

Also, I never said less options. I said *less dominant options*. You are the one taking things completely out of context.

Did you know that basically half the cast has a D-air like Cloud's in Brawl? Yes, there are a lot of 1 frame autocancel D-airs that lead to free combos in that game. You know nothing of insane neutral. Cloud just scratches the surface of previous game insanity.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Snake could do 2 B-airs in a short hop iirc. That's better than basically what the entire Smash 4 cast can do honestly.

Also, I never said less options. I said *less dominant options*. You are the one taking things completely out of context.

Did you know that basically half the cast has a D-air like Cloud's in Brawl? Yes, there are a lot of 1 frame autocancel D-airs that lead to free combos in that game. You know nothing of insane neutral.

Those dairs are not disjointed for the most part. Cloud's is. I thought that was obvious.

Snake's bair is slow and laggy, if it whiffs, auto cancel or not, it leaves him wide open. So it cannot be used to wall out or approach.

You honestly don't understand neutral at all in any game from what you are arguing.

 

[thehard]

"Upsets happen, so this game must have a low skill ceiling" is just a socially acceptable john and you know it.

If you are not prepared for a character or playstyle, you do not deserve to win by virtue of being a top player.

 

[Pyr]

This is coming from a guy agreeing with someone that called Melee's neutral simple and easy. You might want to consider your stance for a moment.

And my argument was always about the aerials, nothing else. Your failure to comprehend does not mean I'm cherry picking.

I'm agreeing with their statement that you're wrong. I don't have to agree with everything to agree with a part. You seriously are just using a bunch of bad argument techniques here. You've no desire for a discussion, so I won't continue with you further.

I will say that, earlier, you wanted someone to, with a straight face, tell you you're wrong (basically). I'd like you to know I am doing that right now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Those dairs are not disjointed for the most part. Cloud's is. I thought that was obvious.

Snake's bair is slow and laggy, if it whiffs, auto cancel or not, it leaves him wide open.

You honestly don't understand neutral at all in any game from what you are arguing.

Snake can rising B-air your shield and fade back, and it's potentially safe. Or he can B-air you again and you die at 100% if you don't respect it. And somehow, his air game is bad. Yet that's scarier than most Smash 4 air games.

Disjoint? Pshaw. Everyone has disjoint in Brawl. Both PK Boys basically have Cloud D-airs in Brawl but somehow are bad characters (rip grab release). Falco doesn't *need* to autocancel his D-air and it's safe on block and an instant (frame 9 iirc) meteor. Ganon has a SH autocancel D-air in Brawl that does 23% and kills you at 90.

Please, you really don't know what insane is.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

I'm agreeing with their statement that you're wrong. I don't have to agree with everything to agree with a part. You seriously are just using a bunch of bad argument techniques here. You've no desire for a discussion, so I won't continue with you further.

I will say that, earlier, you wanted someone to, with a straight face, tell you you're wrong (basically). I'd like you to know I am doing that right now.

Cloud's aerials are balanced unlike those broken Brawl aerials even though effectively they do the same thing. That's your argument?

Yeah I'm done arguing with Smash 4 players that know nothing.

Disjoint? Pshaw. Everyone has disjoint in Brawl. Both PK Boys basically have Cloud D-airs in Brawl but somehow are bad characters (rip grab release). Falco doesn't *need* to autocancel his D-air and it's safe on block and an instant meteor. Ganon has a SH autocancel D-air in Brawl that does 23% and kills you at 90.

Please, you really don't know what insane is.

Brawl Falco's dair is not safe on block. At all. And high dair for Melee Falco isn't safe either, it has to be spaced so it hits their lower body to be safe from shield grabs. Stuff you'd know if you bothered to play any other Smash.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Brawl Falco's dair is not safe on block. At all.

Rising D-air, or space it properly (or crossover) like anything in Brawl. It's pretty retardedly safe.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Rising D-air, or space it properly (or crossover) like anything in Brawl. It's pretty retardedly safe.

When spaced well so are Cloud's aerials. As as well as Sheik. And Diddy. And Rosalina (massively disjointed). The list goes on.

Except with Falco dair has a decent amount of cool down and has to be timed well to spike. It's not nearly as free as you're making it sound.

 

[|RK|]

One thing I'm noticing - I think Cloud is looking more overcentralizing than any other character was. We feared everyone switching to Diddy, to Sheik, to Bayonetta, but Cloud is the only character that seems to be reaching that point at every level of play. Thoughts?

 

[ARGHETH]

After a year's worth of the same player winning tournaments with the same character, y'all are complaining about upsets. I'm done.

People are complaining about upsets? I can't see it over the 3 PAGE LONG ARGUMENT.

One thing I'm noticing - I think Cloud is looking more overcentralizing than any other character was. We feared everyone switching to Diddy, to Sheik, to Bayonetta, but Cloud is the only character that seems to be reaching that point at every level of play. Thoughts?

Ehh... he's just really easy to pick up, so most players have him as a pocket. It probably won't a problem.

It's a good and bad thing, he has good matchups to some gatekeepers like sonic and rosa, making him the perfect mid tier counter pick, if you wanna win a national with a mid tier, clouds the best thing ever. But he himself can be overwhelming to some of the cast, but his disadvantage could become a problem soon.

...
Cloud's not a mid tier, though.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

As far as two aerials in one short hop Smash 4 Diddy and Mario can do this as well, it's hardly a Brawl exclusive. And Diddy and Mario are EXTREMELY relevant in Smash 4's meta.

So yeah, characters with great aerial options tend to be great characters in both games. I don't see how this distinguishes Smash 4 from Brawl at all.

At most you could argue no Smash 4 character has MK level aerials in terms of disjoint and frame data. But as far as the other top tier goes, there's tons of similarities.

 

[paperchao]

One thing I'm noticing - I think Cloud is looking more overcentralizing than any other character was. We feared everyone switching to Diddy, to Sheik, to Bayonetta, but Cloud is the only character that seems to be reaching that point at every level of play. Thoughts?

It's a good and bad thing, he has good matchups to some gatekeepers like sonic and rosa, making him the perfect counter pick, if you wanna win a national with a mid tier, clouds the best thing ever with his ability to take care of characters that midtiers get swept by. But he himself can be overwhelming to some of the cast, but his disadvantage could become a problem soon.
Edit: worded better so people could actually get the point of this post

 

[Mecakoto]

As far as two aerials in one short hop Smash 4 Diddy and Mario can do this as well, it's hardly a Brawl exclusive. And Diddy and Mario are EXTREMELY relevant in Smash 4's meta.

So yeah, characters with great aerial options tend to be great characters in both games. I don't see how this distinguishes Smash 4 from Brawl at all.

At most you could argue no Smash 4 character has MK level aerials in terms of disjoint and frame data. But as far as the other top tier goes, there's tons of similarities.

Well, if there are tons of similarities, what are they? I mean, for the past page and a half you've been spouting that's things are similar, the same, or whatever. You haven't actually listed any hard evidence, though. It's all anecdotal.

So, come on mister "done arguing with Smash 4 players that know nothing." Burden of proof is on you, since we're all apparently incompetent.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

People are complaining about upsets? I can't see it over the 3 PAGE LONG ARGUMENT.

Really? Maybe you should look a little closer.

Ally and M2K in losers today. Nairo also getting upset yesterday. And Japan is full of nothing but random results lol.

I'm starting to wonder why Smash 4 seems to have so many upsets compared to all the other Smash games. Top players (excluding Zero perhaps) seem to get upset all the time. And I don't think you could argue Smash 4 has more competition as Melee for instance definitely has much more and yet the top players rarely get upset.

I can't help but wonder if Smash 4's skill ceiling is a little too low. It seems so many players are able to reach that top, top level of play. Not sure how I feel about it. Don't get me wrong, upsets are hype but when it happens so often as in this game...idk.

Say it with me guys

TWO STOCK IS STUPID!!!!!!

I repeat, Melee has much more competition and yet upsets are much more rare. You almost never hear of the best players not making top 8 or getting upset by players who are hardly known.

The more viable character argument doesn't work either. Because sometimes the players causing upsets are using top tier characters as well. Ally just lost to Cloud for instance. Lost to a Sonic a tournament before that (another top tier).

I don't know. If Smash 4's skill ceiling was high as you say, top 5 level players should not be losing to much lower ranked players this often.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Well, if there are tons of similarities, what are they? I mean, for the past page and a half you've been spouting that's things are similar, the same, or whatever. You haven't actually listed any hard evidence, though. It's all anecdotal.

So, come on mister "done arguing with Smash 4 players that know nothing." Burden of proof is on you, since we're all apparently incompetent.

There are similarities in the aerial department specifically. As far as top tier charactesr go they tend to have aerials that:

1. Auto cancel
2. Have good hitboxes that can be used to approach or wall out opponents.
3. Are great for juggling/followups.

And if that's true then one can't argue Brawl's neutral is simple or autopilot because of great aerials while Smash 4's is not. That's my point. If you're going to call Brawl's neutral braindead due to aerials being too good, then Cloud alone puts Smash 4 in the same department.

 

[thehard]

Ally beat Ned and Wrath when they played in losers.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

It's a good and bad thing, he has good matchups to some gatekeepers like sonic and rosa, making him the perfect mid tier counter pick, if you wanna win a national with a mid tier, clouds the best thing ever. But he himself can be overwhelming to some of the cast, but his disadvantage could become a problem soon.

how the hell do you call a character like Cloud mid tier?

Fast safe aerials with low landing lag, limit charge, amazing mobility, great edgeguarding, great kill power, limit charge, good combo game, massive disjoint, limit charge, destroys most of the cast, limit charge, autocancel dair, everything about him just screams "broken" except for his recovery