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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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C0rvus

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you are beyond biased and nothing you say about other Smash games can be taken seriously.
Irony, this.

Though I do think calling Smash 4's neutral the hardest by far is overstating things. By what metric anyway? Execution-wise Melee requires a strong backing in movement, which requires proper dash dancing, wavedashing and wavelands, l-cancels, etc. and that's before you start interacting with your opponent.

I cannot comment with confidence beyond that because I am admittedly pretty poor at this game and Melee, but whatever. Neutral isn't easy in any of the games.
 

FallofBrawl

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I was curious about your opinion but once you said you can just SHFFL in neutral because it's safe in Melee... nevermind lol
 

A2ZOMG

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You're severely underestimating neutral game in general just like you overestimate Diddy's recovery.

Melee neutral - If you're spamming attacks to land with, what if the person CCs? What if the person WD's OoS into a DD JC Grab? What if they powershield? What if they do X amount of options because hello movement options. This makes neutral more complicated, and also more important, because if you get a bad read and get punished for being overly aggressive or passive, you could just straight lose a stock.

Brawl Neutral was not all about that, there was also mindgames, slight movement, heavy emphasis on spacing and frame traps.

Smash 4 neutral - I spaced an attack on shield and I either hit extremely low to land immediately or I AC'd. You have very little OoS because no one in this game has extremely good OoS because movement options are gone, your move. Pick an option OoS when I'm basically even in frames because hitting shield has very little counterplay due to spacing.
TOP PLAYER IN MELEE AND BRAWL IS M2K

He is BAD at neutral. And he similarly has unimpressive results in Smash 4. Plays Cloud, who has arguably the easiest neutral in the game.

HMMMMMMM...

You said nobody in Smash 4 has extremely good oos options. Are you crazy? Oh, you main Ike. That explains it. Look at Sheik, Pikachu, (Dr) Mario, Ness, and Diddy. Actually most characters in this game have pretty respectable out of shield options. Ike happens to be worse off in that area compared to most. So out of shield options actually are very varied depending on matchup. Furthermore you have to use very different moves in different matchups and situations to play neutral, whereas in Melee or Brawl, you mostly could get away with incredibly safe aerials and sometimes baiting into grabs, or if you were Snake you did tilts and grenades.
 
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Das Koopa

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I repeat, Melee has much more competition and yet upsets are much more rare. You almost never hear of the best players not making top 8 or getting upset by players who are hardly known.

The more viable character argument doesn't work either. Because sometimes the players causing upsets are using top tier characters as well. Ally just lost to Cloud for instance. Lost to a Sonic a tournament before that (another top tier).

I don't know. If Smash 4's skill ceiling was high as you say, top 5 level players should not be losing to much lower ranked players this often.
This is comparing to a game with a 10+ year metagame to one with less than a 2 year established metagame.

kinda speaks for itself
 

A2ZOMG

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Smash 4 has the lowest tech ceiling and easiest combos/frame traps.
This much is true. However it also simultaneously has the worst hitboxes that cover the fewest general options in neutral while still having some of the highest aerial mobility options out of all the Smash games.

Half the reason why Ganon has been able to get better than hopeless results in this game in spite of largely being similar to his Brawl incarnation is because other hitboxes are so much worse in this game compared to previous titles, so other characters generally have to work harder in neutral and play better to beat him.
 
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Mario766

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TOP PLAYER IN MELEE AND BRAWL IS M2K

He is BAD at neutral. And he similarly has unimpressive results in Smash 4. Plays Cloud, who has arguably the easiest neutral in the game.

HMMMMMMM...

You said nobody in Smash 4 has extremely good oos options. Are you crazy? Oh, you main Ike. That explains it. Look at Sheik, Pikachu, (Dr) Mario, Ness, and Diddy. Actually most characters in this game have pretty respectable out of shield options. Ike happens to be worse off in that area compared to most. So out of shield options actually are very varied depending on matchup. Furthermore you have to use very different moves in different matchups and situations to play neutral, whereas in Melee or Brawl, you mostly could get away with incredibly safe aerials and sometimes baiting into grabs, or if you were Snake you did tilts and gre.
M2K wasn't bad at neutral LOL. You can't be bad at neutral in Melee and do well. M2K didn't stick with a character and it showed for the beginning of Smash 4, he focused much more on Melee.

Let's look on OoS options, ignoring grabs.

Fastest option for Sheik is frame 7 N-Air. Not bad.

Mario/Doc? Frame 3. That's good, fast and invincible on start, similar to Ryu having a frame 6 option that is invincible frames 1-6. Those are good and powerful.

Pikachu? 7. N-Air. More of the same.

Ness? 10.

Diddy? 9.

Compare that to Melee OoS, wavedash, shine. Things are much faster, more varied and can lead into more options.
 

JustSomeScrub

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TOP PLAYER IN MELEE AND BRAWL IS M2K

He is BAD at neutral. And he similarly has unimpressive results in Smash 4. Plays Cloud, who has arguably the easiest neutral in the game.

HMMMMMMM...

You said nobody in Smash 4 has extremely good oos options. Are you crazy? Oh, you main Ike. That explains it. Look at Sheik, Pikachu, (Dr) Mario, Ness, and Diddy. Actually most characters in this game have pretty respectable out of shield options. Ike happens to be worse off in that area compared to most. So out of shield options actually are very varied depending on matchup. Furthermore you have to use very different moves in different matchups and situations to play neutral, whereas in Melee or Brawl, you mostly could get away with incredibly safe aerials and sometimes baiting into grabs, or if you were Snake you did tilts and grenades.
M2K is a top player in Smash 4 as well, what are you talking about? He makes top 8s at majors all the time now. No he's not considered top 3 material. But he's not that in Melee either. You also are contradicting yourself. You said Melee's neutral is simple and then claim a top player in it sucks at it.

If anything, bigger punish games means neutral is more important, not less. As it costs you more to lose it at higher levels of play where everyone has stellar punish games.

In Smash 4 you can lose neutral a ton and then land one rogue Smash attack and kill your opponent at 60 thanks to rage (aka the Sheik killer). In fact rage alone disqualifies Smash 4 as having the hardest neutral. You actually get rewarded for losing it provided you don't die.
 
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Aaron1997

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Pac is a decent Answer to Diddy, the problem is that Aba is Rusty right now. I don't think he's touched Pac for months and since then Pac players have come up with new stuff that Aba was not using at all. Aba is going to have to make a choice between Rosa and Pac and knowing him he'll probably go with Rosa.
 

A2ZOMG

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M2K wasn't bad at neutral LOL. You can't be bad at neutral in Melee and do well. M2K didn't stick with a character and it showed for the beginning of Smash 4, he focused much more on Melee.

Let's look on OoS options, ignoring grabs.

Fastest option for Sheik is frame 7 N-Air. Not bad.

Mario/Doc? Frame 3. That's good, fast and invincible on start, similar to Ryu having a frame 6 option that is invincible frames 1-6. Those are good and powerful.

Pikachu? 7. N-Air. More of the same.

Ness? 10.

Diddy? 9.

Compare that to Melee OoS, wavedash, shine. Things are much faster, more varied and can lead into more options.
Wavedash out of shield is okay but it's just mobility and you commit 14 frames for it and have no invincibility. Also only Fox and Falco have Shine. Everyone else sucks when shielding. Can't believe you consider that "varied"

And M2K IS bad at neutral. Played prepatch Diddy, and all he did was fish for grabs because his general playstyle is very reductionist. He stated himself he would play a prepatch Diddy without a Banana.

He gets THE top results in Melee and Brawl because the neutral is actually so unimportant, he just autopilots people to death for mistakes. Even though other players have significantly better spacing and reaction baits than he does. He doesn't win because he's any good at neutral. In Melee and Brawl, the neutral is so simple, and relatively unimportant, that he can get away with it and his unrivaled autopilots outside of neutral carry him.

M2K is a top player in Smash 4 as well, what are you talking about? He makes top 8s at majors all the time now. No he's not considered top 3 material. But he's not that in Melee either. You also are contradicting yourself. You said Melee's neutral is simple and then claim a top player in it sucks at it.

If anything, bigger punish games means neutral is more important, not less. As it costs you more to lose it at higher levels of play where everyone has stellar punish games.

In Smash 4 you can lose neutral a ton and then land one rogue Smash attack and kill your opponent at 60 thanks to rage (aka the Sheik killer). In fact rage alone disqualifies Smash 4 as having the hardest neutral. You actually get rewarded for losing it provided you don't die.
M2K literally was THE top player for Melee some eras ago. That should tell you something about the things that actually matter in that game. Playing an extremely solid, reactive, and varied neutral was not strictly among them.
 
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JustSomeScrub

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Wavedash out of shield is okay but it's just mobility and you commit 14 frames for it and have no invincibility. Also only Fox and Falco have Shine. Everyone else sucks when shielding. Can't believe you consider that "varied"

And M2K IS bad at neutral. Played prepatch Diddy, and all he did was fish for grabs because his general playstyle is very reductionist. He stated himself he would play a prepatch Diddy without a Banana.

He gets THE top results in Melee and Brawl because the neutral is actually so unimportant, he just autopilots people to death for mistakes. Even though other players have significantly better spacing and reaction baits than he does. He doesn't win because he's any good at neutral. In Melee and Brawl, the neutral is so simple, and relatively unimportant, that he can get away with it and his unrivaled autopilots outside of neutral carry him.
1. He's nowhere near the best Melee player. We are talking about the current meta, not what it was in 2007.
2. He had plenty of competition in Brawl. He was only dominant early on, later tons of players could beat him and did beat him. He never won any of the later super majors for Brawl actually.
3. He is a top player in Smash 4 which you are ignoring. Consistently places at majors.

Your claims of Melee/Brawl having easier neutrals than Smash 4 have already been refuted so I won't get into that. But I will say once again, rage alone disqualifies Smash 4 as having a harder neutral game. In no other Smash game do you get rewarded for losing neutral over and over.
 
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sedrf

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If m2k had a bad neutral he wouldn't have kept his position in melee.
Seeing your account you look old,but at the same time to think that m2k has a poor neutral is wrong.
Also to imply cloud's neutral is somehow braindead is wrong too.
Neutral is important in every game
Edit: zinoto has a :4palutena:
ok then
 
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Mecakoto

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I don't know what to say to un-derail the thread, so I'll just say this: Could we go back to actually discussing Neutral/Advantage/Disadvantage instead of trying to have a pissing contest that boils down to, "I know more then you. Shut up?"
 

Djent

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Raise your Paluteeners \ :4palutena: /

Because of her continued overperformance compared to representation in 1.1.5/1.1.6 data, I'm going to go ahead and say this character might not even be low tier.
 
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A2ZOMG

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1. He's nowhere near the best Melee player.
2. He had plenty of competition in Brawl. He was only dominant early on, later tons of players could beat him and did beat him. He never won any of the later super majors for Brawl actually.
3. He is a top player in Smash 4 which you are ignoring. Consistently places at majors.

Your claims of Melee/Brawl having easier neutrals than Smash 4 have already been refuted so I won't get into that. But I will say once again, rage alone disqualifies Smash 4 as having a harder neutral game. In no other Smash game do you get rewarded for losing neutral over and over.
1. There was a time when M2K was considered unbeatable, given a nickname "The Robot", and that Melee was broken. He was definitely the best Melee player at one point in history.
2. What you're talking about happened muuuuuch later on after people finally adopted all of M2K's tech and other things. He still established himself as the best by far for a very long time.

Also, none of you disproved the fact that hitboxes are BY FAR more generous in Melee and Brawl. That above anything makes neutral significantly easier. Hitboxes alone cover more options safely in those games, meaning you don't need to learn as many ways to microspace when simply favorably getting into midrange before your opponent puts you at a huge advantage, whereas the responses in midrange in Smash 4 are nowhere near as clean cut when there aren't as many broken autocancelable aerials.

Rage also has nothing to do with neutral. False equivalence. Similarly, death combos have nothing to do with neutral either. Anyone who argues that getting killed for a mistake in neutral means anything about neutral has missed the point.
 
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JustSomeScrub

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Similarly, death combos have nothing to do with neutral either. Anyone who argues that getting killed for a mistake in neutral means anything about neutral has missed the point.
You have literally spent an hour arguing just this. That neutral doesn't matter because M2K zero to deathed people in Melee despite having bad neutral.

At this point you are just contradicting yourself over and over.

Edit:

Rage has everything to do with neutral. I repeat. This is the only Smash game that rewards you for losing neutral as long as you don't die.

I was watching Void vs Nairo yesterday. Void outplayed Nairo in neutral over and over and over. Had him at well above 100 last game, last stock. He got grabbed at 30 and died thanks to lol uair up B and rage.
 
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Shaya

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Brawl Neutral may have been "easy", as in, it doesn't take a genius to replicate a full second of play from any level of player themselves. But dodges were so much more risky in that game for one (excluding spot dodge).
Also Brawl had the strongest power shield ability out of any of the smash games, it actually made neutral one of the deepest and coolest at top level.

But w/e, a game that is literally all about neutral and with little to no upsets in it's entire history (that didn't result in consistent things afterwards: Salem was an exception) must've been easy as fuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.

Simple? yes
Easy? hell no.
projectiles were soooo good in that game tooo.

I'd say Brawl had a lot more dynamics in neutral, the uniqueness of the best chars tools meant it was hard to be able to learn to deal with them all. Smash4 neutral options are significantly more generic, the single strong tools we knew from Brawl/Melee are mechanically weaker than they were before.
 
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A2ZOMG

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You have literally spent an hour arguing just this. That neutral doesn't matter because M2K zero to deathed people in Melee despite having bad neutral.

At this point you are just contradicting yourself over and over.
There is absolutely nothing contradictory about what I stated. Positive state matters far more in Melee than neutral. That is why M2K is dominant, because he doesn't need to be that good at neutral. He just needs to lab autopilot death combos, which is POSITIVE STATE.

Brawl Neutral may have been "easy", as in, it doesn't take a genius to replicate a full second of play from any level of player themselves. But dodges were so much more risky in that game for one.
Also Brawl had the best power shielding "game" out of any of the smash games, it actually made neutral one of the deepest and coolest at top level.

But w/e, a game that is literally all about neutral and with little to no upsets in it's entire history (that didn't result in consistent things afterwards: Salem was an exception) must've been easy as fuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.
I agree there is slightly more incentive to perfect shield in Brawl than in Smash 4. Also, dodges are only much riskier in the air, which makes reward in Brawl actually pretty high at top level play. But I should mention how broken spotdodges are in Brawl compared to Smash 4, which is offset somewhat by much better hitboxes in Brawl admittedly.
 
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JustSomeScrub

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There is absolutely nothing contradictory about what I stated. Positive state matters far more in Melee than neutral. That is why M2K is dominant, because he doesn't need to be that good at neutral. He just needs to lab autopilot death combos, which is POSITIVE STATE.
Are you trolling at this point or do you really not see your own hypocrisy?

You literally JUST said death combos don't matter when discussing how important neutral is and then bring it up. Again.
 

Ninety

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So, anyway...

Who's Ned? I'd never heard of him before and now he's wrecking face. Local name?
 

A2ZOMG

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Are you trolling at this point or do you really not see your own hypocrisy?

You literally JUST said death combos don't matter when discussing how important neutral is and then bring it up. Again.
There is absolutely no contradiction.

Death combos are completely separate from the complexity of neutral. Death combos are POSITIVE STATE.

Melee's neutral is easy, though this has nothing to do with death combos. Melee has generous hitboxes which permit very broad reads to dominate the options available. M2K's extreme playstyle, which is heavily focused on autopilots, and less on neutral, is a prime example of how you can see Smash bros metas differ. Positive state matters significantly more in Melee, and neutral is simultaneously not as difficult, which M2K performs much better in than Smash 4, where reward is lower but neutral is considerably harder.

He also performs much better in Brawl because that game, like Melee, has a much easier neutral than Smash 4. Reward may not be so high as in Melee overall, but the less difficult neutral still works completely to M2K's strengths as a player.
 
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Das Koopa

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In fact, in case the meta comparisons don't speak for themselves, I'll just elaborate.

Younger metagames are going to inherently be more unstable and volatile. The top players aren't as experienced or tuned, the "lesser" players that may occasionally beat them are often far better than people give them credit for, etc. You can't compare """nobodies""" in Smash 4 to """nobodies""" in Melee. It's silly.

Mind you, upsets in Melee happen all the time. Not as much at the highest level (e.g not to Gods, but crazy stuff frequently goes down on levels below that), but this is comparing 5-6 players who've been at the very top for many, many years to a game that's only now just establishing the quality of players beyond the likes of ZeRo, Nairo, and Dabuz.

This introduces another problem with the argument - ignoring context behind losses, or ignoring the fact that Smash 4 lacks a (good) ranking system to compare to Melee that would allow us to determine equivalent upsets. I.E., it's hard to argue that Smash 4's skill ceiling is lower because Nairo gets upset frequently, because it ignores the fact that Nairo is an inconsistent player who has extremely high highs but disastrously bad low lows.

If you bring up such upsets, it's easy to bring up incredibly consistent players who typically only lose to people that're in the same skill camp. ZeRo and Dabuz are prime examples.

Basically, """nobodies""" that come up in Smash 4 and do really well (Ned and Wrath as recent examples) might just be really good players that didn't get a ton of exposure or who's previous results were largely ignored. Ned, for example, got third at Frostbite a few months ago behind Ally and Zinoto - he's hardly a "nobody".

The added factor of two stock 3 game meta definitely creates and promotes an environment of increased inconsistency too, as you're less likely to see those sudden upsets in 5-set games.A similar thing happened in Melee, where Wobbles got 2nd at Evo 2013 - an occurrence that may not have ever happened if the sets had been best of five.

That being said, outside Japan's weird meta, this game isn't especially inconsistent. There are definitely a good few high-profile upsets or major losses that happened in a specific context. E.g., Dabuz getting 9th at Pound was against Abadango and Larry Lurr, two extremely good players, one of whom was 2-0 on Dabuz at the time.
 

HeavyLobster

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A2ZOMG A2ZOMG Wondering how exactly is smash 4 harder in neutral than other games..is it because of the limited options (compared to other games) that need to be mixed up well to be consistent?

And I think 64 neutral is harder than melee lol
It's because of worse hitboxes and AC windows across the board. His argument also is from a pure decision-making perspective, and doesn't account for tech difficulty. His main point is that Melee/Brawl have bigger hitboxes with less commitment on them relative to Smash 4, and this makes it easier to autopilot neutral in those games assuming you execute properly. It's definitely true for Brawl, and while I'm not entirely sure about Melee due to its various techs and other complicating factors, it is true that some of Melee's more obscene attacks simplify things a lot more than the game engine in a vacuum would suggest, so it's not so clear-cut that Melee is this hyper-complex game at its core relative to Smash 4. He's also dead-on when it comes to hitbox reductions being one of Ganon's biggest boons when it comes to his transition from Brawl to Smash 4.
 

JustSomeScrub

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There is absolutely no contradiction.

Death combos are completely separate from the complexity of neutral. Death combos are POSITIVE STATE.

Melee's neutral is easy, though this has nothing to do with death combos. Melee has generous hitboxes which permit very broad reads to dominate the options available. M2K's extreme playstyle, which is heavily focused on autopilots, and less on neutral, is a prime example of how you can see Smash bros metas differ. Positive state matters significantly more in Melee, and neutral is simultaneously not as difficult, which M2K performs much better in than Smash 4, where reward is lower but neutral is considerably harder.

He also performs much better in Brawl because that game, like Melee, has a much easier neutral than Smash 4. Reward may not be so high as in Melee overall, but the less difficult neutral still works completely to M2K's strengths as a player.
M2K didn't make top 8 in Melee at GOML 2016. But got 5th iirc in Smash 4.You really have no idea what you are talking about.

I suggest you try playing any other Smash game at the competitive level before commentating further. Melee's neutral makes Smash 4 look like child's play.

If it were as easy as you say, top players would get upset all the time. But Smash 4 is the game where that happens, not Melee or Brawl. Their results have always been incredibly inconsistent showcasing they are much harder to master if only a few ever did so.
 
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Shaya

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So, anyway...

Who's Ned? I'd never heard of him before and now he's wrecking face. Local name?
Rising mid-west hero for a while. Started rising to fame with Zero Suit before her nerfs, IIRC either taking a set off of Ally or taking him to last stock last hit in a bo5 on multiple occasions.
Has been doing better with Cloud in the last two months, almost taking a set off of Abadango just recently.
 

A2ZOMG

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M2K didn't make top 8 in Melee at GOML 2016. But got 5th iirc in Smash 4.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. I suggest you try playing any other Smash game at the competitive level before commentating further. Melee's neutral makes Smash 4 look like child's play.

If it were as easy as you say, top players would get upset all the time. But Smash 4 is the game where that happens, not Melee.
M2K's current placements in Smash 4 pale to his past placements in Brawl and Melee. I am not impressed.

Easier games are easier for top players to remain consistent in. Once technical barriers are passed, Melee is not a very complicated game overall. Neither is Brawl.

Smash 4 is very difficult to remain consistent in at all levels because the game is actually very difficult (mostly neutral, as stated). And when I look at Void play Smash 4 and compare how he plays to Melee players in neutral, I can't imagine the unimaginable number of hours Void had to spend to get to his level. Much more difficult than anything else I've seen.

This isn't to downplay the vast amount of technical investment you need to play space animals well, however Smash 4 has an extremely intricate neutral that requires far more spacial precision than the other titles. Falco and Fox in Melee just get on your shield and sit on it after mechanical barriers are surpassed.
 
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Hero_2_All

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Think about it like this...

We have two characters. One can kill you in one hit of anything and is so durable he needs to lose neutral 100 times to lose, but he's ridiculously slow and every move has 30 frames of start up. You're dead if he gets in, but that's impossible unless he unplugs your controller. Another character has an attack that can hit anybody, anywhere, anytime, but dies in one hit and the attack does almost no damage. Always wins neutral but gets nearly nothing for it.

Even Dorf has a neutral over advantage the character. His advantage literally does not matter because he can't get in, even with a hundred gos at it. Neutral the character's terrible disadvantage and advantage don't mean anything because it's impossible to get in on him. Worst case scenario for neutral the character is that he does literally no damage but still ties because you cann't do anything to him either.
As you took note of at both extremes it is a draw, one never hurts one enough, or the other doesn't win nuetral. The senerio you gave is impossible because something that cannot be hit or cannot land do not exsist. It is still all about ratios. None is innately better. Ganon is bad because his risk is way higher than his reward, nothing more. Now lets do your senerio but with numbers this time. Say you had a character who will get a one shot hit in 1 out of 99 nuetral exchanges. The other takes 100 nuetral wins to ko the one shotter. Under this one shotter is objectively better. The design of modern fighters is that characters are designed to have better nuetrals than advatage states. They are designed around footsies and needing to win nuetral multiple times. This is instead of winning nuetral once or twice. Obviously it is impossible for character have the inability to hit, vice versa a chracter cannot have the inibility to be hit aswell. Modern fighters though lean much more to the extreme of inibility to be hit with mutiple nuetral wins when designing characters. This is due to breading a feeling of consistent skill instead of a feeling of random luck from less exchanges. One thing to note though is a combination of both good nuetral and good advatage trounces all. Yet, Nuetral and advatage are equal when compared seperatly. This though is were misconceptions come in that nuetral is better. This is when you compare someone like ganon to shiek. Ganon's reward is not proportional to the diffrence in risk. Shiek may need to win only 7 nuetrals to take a stock, but ganon needs around 3. Yet say ganon wins nuetral one out if 7 times. Now what if shiek needed 21 nuetrals? The it would be even. Fighters are all in the risk reward ratios. The problem is that characters like shiek have relitively decent reward on top of the very god like nuetrals. Combination beats all. Vice versa say we played a fighter were everything has 30 frames lag. Then tiers and design would lean towards reward.
 

ShadowGuy1

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M2K's current placements in Smash 4 pale to his past placements in Brawl and Melee. I am not impressed.

Easier games are easier for top players to remain consistent in. Once technical barriers are passed, Melee is not a very complicated game overall. Neither is Brawl.

Smash 4 is very difficult to remain consistent in at all levels because the game is actually very difficult (mostly neutral, as stated). And when I look at Void play Smash 4 and compare how he plays to Melee players in neutral, I can't imagine the unimaginable number of hours Void had to spend to get to his level. Much more difficult than anything else I've seen.
M2k has to juggle 2 games at once, and both are quite hard to play, while people like Zero and Nairo are only playing one. Think about that.
 

Djent

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Man, I hate to disagree with Shaya on anything Brawl-related, but
But w/e, a game that is literally all about neutral and with little to no upsets in it's entire history (that didn't result in consistent things afterwards: Salem was an exception) must've been easy as fuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.
the bolded bit is dubious. In his first year of playing :metaknight:, M2K didn't just lose to other top-of-the-top players like Ally and ADHD. He also lost to Ninjalink, Fiction, and Lain, plus Dojo and Tyrant beat him in the ditto. He was less consistent than ZeRo even when you consider that there were less tournaments at which he could screw up and no patches to curtail his character's strengths. And from 2010 onward not much changed in that regard. For instance, Apex 2013 wasn't just an upset because Salem won, other perennial killers like ESAM, ADHD, and DEHF went out before top 8 as well. I don't think Brawl really was all that consistent all things considered.
 

A2ZOMG

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Man, I hate to disagree with Shaya on anything Brawl-related, but
the bolded bit is dubious. In his first year of playing :metaknight:, M2K didn't just lose to other top-of-the-top players like Ally and ADHD. He also lost to Ninjalink, Fiction, and Lain, plus Dojo and Tyrant beat him in the ditto. He was less consistent than ZeRo even when you consider that there were less tournaments at which he could screw up and no patches to curtail his character's strengths. And from 2010 onward not much changed in that regard. For instance, Apex 2013 wasn't just an upset because Salem won, other perennial killers like ESAM, ADHD, and DEHF went out before top 8 as well. I don't think Brawl really was all that consistent all things considered.
That put in perspective, Zero being as consistent as he was for the first year in NA...is downright impressive.

Though as I recall, M2K was at least consistent enough to like place 2nd at minimum for like the longest time?
 
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Das Koopa

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ZeRo needs to stop using Cloud

It's garbage

Ally up 2-0 in first set of GF, could get the reset.
 
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JustSomeScrub

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The funny thing is Smash 4's best characters have great autocancel aerials as well even if most of the cast doesn't. Diddy, Sheik, Cloud, ZSS, Rosalina, Ryu, Mario etc. Not to mention more shield stun than Brawl.

So your argument had no merit whatsoever. Neutral is very similar to Brawl. So if you think Brawl's neutral is simple than so is Smash 4 as far as the most relevant characters go. And Smash 4 has better rolls as well.

Also if you really think spacing doesn't matter in Melee. Kindly learn those "braindead" SHFFL aerials and then enter a tourny. Let us know how it goes.
 
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Solfiner

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I think ZeRo has to lab Diddy vs Mario a lot, it seems to be his best bet.
 

A2ZOMG

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The funny thing is Smash 4's best characters have great autocancel aerials as well even if most of the cast doesn't. Diddy, Sheik, Cloud, ZSS, Rosalina, Ryu, Mario etc. Not to mention more shield stun than Brawl.

So your argument had no merit whatsoever. Neutral is very similar to Brawl. So if you think Brawl's neutral is simple than so is Smash 4 as far as the most relevant characters go. And Smash 4 has better rolls as well.

Also if you really think spacing doesn't matter in Melee. Kindly learn those "braindead" SHFFL aerials and then enter a tourny. Let us know how it goes.
That frankly proves my point if anything. The relative lack of really incredible autocancel aerials in Smash 4 makes existing practical ones an asset. And none of the really good autocancel aerials you mentioned are anywhere *near* as good as Brawl autocancel aerials. Mario's B-air in particular will whiff a lot more against short characters in this game for instance, while in Brawl, his rising SH B-air hit short characters pretty easily. Overall, there are far fewer options in Smash 4 that are hyper dominant in neutral.

Spacing matters in Melee. Marth and Jiggs are ridiculously incredible at it and essentially invalidate some characters as a result because of how consistently they can wall. As I stated, hitboxes are INCREDIBLY generous in Melee, which either results in oppressive walling or a game where very broad reads suffice for playing neutral.
 
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Das Koopa

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That was ****ing insane. What even just happened
 
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Yonder

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Sorry, I have no idea which stream you are all watching.

...

I'm guessing Zero lost again.

Im also kind of annoyed if he is picking up Cloud in any form. Stick to Diddy and Sheik man, leave Cloud to M2K.

And yeah if I had to choose Mario nerfs, I would want slightly more end lag on u smash and up air.

Random thought compilation.
 
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