Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Das Koopa]

So this game is nearly 2 years old and your argument is people don't know what Bowser can do? They are unprepared?

it's well known that high level Bowsers have existed long throughout the game's meta and that Bowser was never buffed recently and has always been this good

k a p p a

But yeah, basically - some top level players aren't experienced in certain matchups, don't adapt quickly enough, and lose a set. Longevity of the game doesn't mean much if your matchup experience against Bowser tends to be friendlies and random people in pools.

The key, as I stated prior, is if the matches remain equally competitive upon rematches.

 

[TDK]

also FS frozen sends False to losers.
What does frozen play in 4?

Last I checked Frozen was a Rosalina main.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Last I checked Frozen was a Rosalina main.

Frozen has been playing Corrin this tournament.

ALso it seems like 6WX beat Tweek and Dabuz vs 6WX Winners Finals

EDIT:Wow, I thought 6WX was Void. I follow 6WX a lot as well. Its Void vs Dabuz now nvm lol

 

[L9999]

They changed the naming, it's just semantics. But fine, if you want to argue he was 12th place at worst, my point still stands. In a game with 39 characters, being in the upper 3rd is pretty darn good.

He had some bad matchups but did very well versus characters above him including Snake, Wario and Marth. And he beat nearly every actual mid tier character easily.

I think Bowser is in a similar position in this game. Not one of the best characters but significantly better than mid tier characters.

Better than etc?

 

[FeelMeUp]

If 3 stock was the standard maybe we wouldn't have people randomly losing to mediocre characters so often.

 

[Djent]

@juddy96 and I will be updating the bracket for Hirosuma 4 (here).

 

[Nu~]

Edit:

DDD was considered top 10 material in Brawl.

A character being slow (which Bowser isn't even really) and big/heavy doesn't disqualify them from being high tier.

Well...
Does bowser have anything comparable to a chain grab that disqualified half the cast from playing smash?

And bowser being "slow" isn't what keeps him in mid tier. It's his abysmal disadvantage state and linear nuetral

 

[C0rvus]

What a messy meta we exist in right now. Characters' MU spreads are all over the place. Rosa likely beats Sheik and Diddy but loses to Cloud, MK, Mewtwo, Corrin... Sheik beats Cloud, Fox, and a number of others but has to scrounge for kills. Man characters have a stake at viability and relevance, but all in a weird clump. Should be interesting to see how things pan out.

 

[DDK]

Man, the margin of error is so small for the Sonic vs. Cloud matchup. 6WX was playing so optimally during those first 3 games (balancing a solid pressure game with defensive play) and still came up short. Not to say that Tweek wasn't playing fantastically, covering all of 6WX's options, but it goes to show how hard it is for Sonic to get in against Cloud's disjoints and even withstanding that, run away with a lead.

 

[ARGHETH]

I don't play Bowser but it's clear as day he's way better than people think. The results speak for themselves. There are several characters ranked above him that do not have the recent great results he does.

I don't get why people want him to be bad.

Maybe because they play theory fighter all day instead of the actual game.

People don't want him to be bad, it's just that characters suddenly doing well and then being declared high tier has happened way too often around here.

Nairo is considered what? Second best in the world by most? Bowser beating him is more than just an upset. It's a statement.

A Robin beat him, doesn't mean we think he's high tier.

 

[Charoite]

hopefully with that set people realize that using shield, knowing how to sdi her specials and that staying mid range actually works against bayo, oh and that witch isn't a free win card now that the character doesn't have fear factor so she needs to make risky guesses to seal stocks, i am not optimistic for bayo considering that some of her worst matchups are very popular at top level ie:

 

[Das Koopa]

Nairo resets Dabuz 3-2, wins second set 3-1, winning the final KTAR.

KTAR XVIII (June 11th) (Tristate) (339 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: Nairo
2nd: Dabuz
3rd: Tweek
4th: VoiD
5th: Salem
5th: 6WX
7th: DireOnFire
7th: John Numbers ,
9th: Mr. E
9th: Frozen
9th: NAKAT
9th: Pink Fresh
13th: Jtails
13th: Waldo
13th: LAG Chaos
13th: Dugan

 

[Blobface]

it's well known that high level Bowsers have existed long throughout the game's meta and that Bowser was never buffed recently and has always been this good

k a p p a

But yeah, basically - some top level players aren't experienced in certain matchups, don't adapt quickly enough, and lose a set. Longevity of the game doesn't mean much if your matchup experience against Bowser tends to be friendlies and random people in pools.

The key, as I stated prior, is if the matches remain equally competitive upon rematches.

Is there video that shows how certain players played the Bowser MU incorrectly? It's true that Bowser's matches can swing one way or the other really easily, but with the KTAR results as well it seems very contrived to say that that many players didn't know the matchup or adapt to it.

 

[Hero_2_All]

Is that a Corrin solo main I see? ... This... This pleases me.

 

[Das Koopa]

Is there video that shows how certain players played the Bowser MU incorrectly? It's true that Bowser's matches can swing one way or the other really easily, but with the KTAR results as well it seems very contrived to say that that many players didn't know the matchup or adapt to it.

It's entirely possible in Nairo's case considering Dire didn't go very far at all after that set whereas Nairo won the whole tourney

Which leaves LordMix's performance as the standout, but Bowser is looking pretty close to DK atm (aka somewhere high in mid tier) but we'll need to see more

 

[Ninety]

Looking like Bayonetta is indeed still relevant, huh. Props to Salem and Pink Fresh.

Also, solo Corrin getting 9th and Bowser in 7th! Fun.

 

[Das Koopa]

Dabuz pulled out Olimar a couple of times but had no success, Salem sandbagged to Lucina when he was down 0-2 vs. VoiD.

tweek won't pull out BJ ever

 

[TDK]

Nairo resets Dabuz 3-2, wins second set 3-1, winning the final KTAR.

KTAR XVIII (June 11th) (Tristate) (339 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: Nairo
2nd: Dabuz
3rd: Tweek
4th: VoiD
5th: Salem
5th: 6WX
7th: DireOnFire
7th: John Numbers ,
9th: Mr. E
9th: Frozen
9th: NAKAT
9th: Pink Fresh
13th: Jtails
13th: Waldo
13th: LAG Chaos
13th: Dugan

This is the best top 8 character selection I've ever seen. Wii Fit, Corrin, Bowser, Bayo? Yes please. And a Corrin Solo main in top 16? Awesome!

Also, no Diddy in top 8!

 

[verbatim]

Bowser is looking pretty close to DK atm (aka somewhere high in mid tier) but we'll need to see more

This.

IK that it gets kind of repetitive when people are always saying it, but the tiers really are a lot closer in this game than any previous smash games. Saying someone is a mid or even low tier no longer means they have a losing matchup against every top tier character, it's just a representation of where they consistently place relative to other characters.

I really don't like the mentality of ranking characters as "top 20" or "top 10". The fact that 10 is a nice round number doesn't necessarily make whoever gets 10th on any given tier list significantly better than whoever gets 11th. That line might be actually drawn between 13 and 14, or 8 or 9, or 3 and 4, etc.

 

[Eugene Wang]

My rule is that if you want to declare a character in a certain tier position, you'd better be prepared to justfy the tier position of not only that character, but also the tier positions of the other characters that might otherwise occupy that tier position. I'm not interested in a Lake Wobegon tier list where 30 characters comfortably occupy top 20 together.

That said, Bowser is still stuck with a grappler's toolkit, so he's not going far on the tier list without some very good players.

 

[TDK]

I don't get how Sheik is top 3 at all. I mean, winning neutral 80% of the time is great and all, but when you're doing what pretty much amount to giving your opponent rage just means you're going to die sooner.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

People are acting like Sheik is just a minor upgrade from Pikachu lmao

 

[Dre89]

Another mid tier main that tries to convince people his character is better than it actually is due to random hyperbole and player losses. How many of you are there?
Last time it was Duck Hunt mains swearing their character is now high tier and Olimar mains trying to say he was as well. Guess it's Bowser's turn.

So basically, whenever a character previously considered mid-low starts beating numerous top players using top tiers, it'll just be MU inexperience or player flaws.

If beating multiple top players using top tiers isn't evidence that he's legit, I don't know what is.

 

[Luco]

If a top player never fought back in a given match, the opponent would win, no matter who they were.

The world is real (maybe) and there are forms of variance between the above extreme example and points where top players start playing out of this world. In between those two points is where they most commonly play at, usually towards the upper end of that scale but there are plenty of times when top players play inconsistently and come close to losing sets against players they shouldn't, or even get upset by said players.

This scale applies to everyone of course.

I'm not meaning to under-rate Bowser. This level of power shown by him is highly notable (beating several DIFFERENT top players is always notable even given my paragraph above) and should be taken into consideration. What I don't like is "Now Bowser is top tier" and equally so "This means nothing for Bowser" - what this actually represents is *something* that we probably don't know how to define yet, and should be on the look-out to see how Bowser fares against these high-level players in the coming months.

In other words, don't assume the world runs mechanically and that a win always equals... A win, if you catch my meaning. We're predominantly theorycrafters and should be looking at the why as well as building our theory off reality.

 

[Rizen]

So basically, whenever a character previously considered mid-low starts beating numerous top players using top tiers, it'll just be MU inexperience or player flaws.

If beating multiple top players using top tiers isn't evidence that he's legit, I don't know what is.

It's more complicated than that. If pre patch Bayonetta does it's because people need to learn to DI. If Pikachu or Mario does it's because ESAM or Ally respectively. If Peach, Bowser, Robin or Mewtwo does it's because they're sleeper high tiers. If Duckhunt or Villager does it's because Japan has a more patient metagame than the west. If DDD or G&W does no one really cares for some reason.

...or maybe SSB4 is just a very well balanced game where tiers don't matter as much.

 

[Emblem Lord]

With top tier kill confirms getting nerfed bad and having to rely very much on their neutral, the tiers have become
VERY close.

The chars that DO still have kill confirms have several flaws keeping them in check or their confirms have specific ranges where they kill/don't kill until high percent.

 

[PK Gaming]

With top tier kill confirms getting nerfed bad and having to rely very much on their neutral, the tiers have become
VERY close.

I love this metagame so goddamn much

 

[jespoke]

With top tier kill confirms getting nerfed bad and having to rely very much on their neutral, the tiers have become
VERY close.

And there we have one of the reasons Sheik and Diddy still do so well, balancing made them kill less well, but also made their biggest strength all the more important.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Strong neutral will ALWAYS trump every other kind of positive or negative attribute. Such is the way of fighting games. Also their strong disadvantage helps out a ton as well.

 

[|RK|]

I missed games 1 and 2 of Triple R vs Abadango. I hear he took out Aba's MK - how?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

And there we have one of the reasons Sheik and Diddy still do so well, balancing made them kill less well, but also made their biggest strength all the more important.

meanwhile Cloud has a godlike neutral, kill power, and a decent disadvantage

 

[Emblem Lord]

His recovery is part of disadvantage so I'm going to plug in below average disadvantage for Cloud. He also lacks reliable/safe kill confirms. He has dash in SH Nair run to Limit Cross Slash, but its very percent and weight dependent. Cept the ledge so learn how to block.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Disadvantage by and large is the common thread most high tiers share. The most oppressive neutral/advantaged tools have been nerfed, meaning that the main difference between good and great characters is usually that the great ones have at least one versatile tool for resetting to neutral, while average characters don't. There are very few tools in neutral that really cover a ton of options at once, which is very different from Melee/Brawl, and the punish games of the few characters who do have such tools are relatively tame. This leaves more room for mains of weaker characters to outplay said high tiers, even if the risk/reward ratio is still more favorable to high tiers.

 

[Hero_2_All]

Strong neutral will ALWAYS trump every other kind of positive or negative attribute. Such is the way of fighting games. Also their strong disadvantage helps out a ton as well.

Im prone to disagree that nuetral trumps the other states in ALL fighting games. Even in smash there are top chraracters whose advatages more than make up for thier nuetrals. It is all about the risk vs reward. If your character wins nuetral 3 out of 4 times, but mine has the reward off one nuetral win that yours has in 3 then the ratio is even. There have been many top tiers in fighting games with only passable nuetrals, but great advantage states. What I find interesting is that there is an illusion of nuetral or advatage being favored depending on the mechanics of the fighter. For example smash has less combos and safer nuetrals than most, but if you added say a marval vs capcom character with 50 hit footdive combos into 0 to death confirms, but it had ganon lvl nuetral they would still be amazing. All in all though its all about risk vs reward ratios.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Strong neutral will ALWAYS trump every other kind of positive or negative attribute. Such is the way of fighting games. Also their strong disadvantage helps out a ton as well.

I'd like you to explain to me why Dhalsim didn't get very far in most SF4 iterations outside of Vanilla.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Cuz in SFIV making people respect your disadvantage is a huge part of the game. You also had easy mode option selects that wrecked his escape options. He was good at ZONING. I wouldnt say he was good at NEUTRAL.

Zoning is only a subset of neutral.

Akuma...he had good neutral....and...everything else.

**** Akuma.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'd like you to explain to me why Dhalsim didn't get very far in most SF4 iterations outside of Vanilla.

Just because neutral may be the most important aspect of fighting games doesn't make it the end-all be-all. The best obviously take the best from all worlds. But neutral is the ticket to those other worlds of advantage and disadvantage.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Im prone to disagree that nuetral trumps the other states in ALL fighting games. Even in smash there are top chraracters whose advatages more than make up for thier nuetrals. It is all about the risk vs reward. If your character wins nuetral 3 out of 4 times, but mine has the reward off one nuetral win that yours has in 3 then the ratio is even. There have been many top tiers in fighting games with only passable nuetrals, but great advantage states. What I find interesting is that there is an illusion of nuetral or advatage being favored depending on the mechanics of the fighter. For example smash has less combos and safer nuetrals than most, but if you added say a marval vs capcom character with 50 hit footdive combos into 0 to death confirms, but it had ganon lvl nuetral they would still be amazing. All in all though its all about risk vs reward ratios.

Ah, but their neutral has to at LEAST be decent right?

It still all starts from neutral.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Cuz in SFIV making people respect your disadvantage is a huge part of the game. You also had easy mode option selects that wrecked his escape options. He was good at ZONING. I wouldnt say he was good at NEUTRAL.

Zoning is only a subset of neutral.

Akuma...he had good neutral....and...everything else.

**** Akuma.

I mean, Dhalsim's zoning is the cornerstone of his neutral game, but realistically his normals at all ranges were all very good moves, not factoring what conversion he had from them necessarily.

Ultimately for me, I can't say in good conscience that neutral always defines a fighting game meta. Obviously Gouki being good at EVERYTHING puts him at top, no question about that.

Still, I also remember you being highly annoyed about Sagat's losing matchup with Dudley even though Dudley's footsies on paper are very limited.

As for Smash 4, Sheik and Diddy having extremely dominant neutral AND disadvantage state fundamentally puts them in a different league than most of the cast.

 

[Hero_2_All]

Ah, but their neutral has to at LEAST be decent right?

It still all starts from neutral.

Well because in most modern fighting games the nuetral favored design is more prevelant. Theoretically though you can have it were nothing is safe on block, and your advatage state dictates your tier. Generally though most top tier heavy advatage style chracters have some semblance of a nuetral. Yet this more stems from nuetral sentric modern fighter design. You technically could have a chracter who one shots others and overides a garbage nuetral, but that would be just poor design.