Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ぱみゅ]

Ok, guys, let's leave the Bayo-ban arguments to the Bayo-ban threads and stop the callouts, please.

 

[Y2Kay]

I love how you feel entitled to tell me that I am "ignorant" and to "stop it". That's some ego you are boasting.

Anyway, you are actually incorrect in my opinion. Bayonetta is definitely bad for competition. She promotes boring and degenerate play that drives players away from the game. Also, to add to that, viewers being driven away hurts the game as well since that limits the audience of people paying attention to the game, making the community smaller. If you care even slightly about this game's competitive scene staying healthy, you will want Bayo to be nerfed and potentially banned otherwise.

First of all, you are using the word degenerate wrong. I'm gonna assume you mean mindless.

Fighting bayo is definitely not a mindless endeavor. She requires an intelligent and conservative use of your moves. This isn't melee, and this isn't your average opponent. You can't just throw out hitboxs and expect not to be punished.

This "degenerate" play is literally what I've had to do my whole smash career, and what everyone else has been doing forever. Do you even know what you are talking about? Are we even playing the same game?

You're entitled to your opinion, but you need stop insulting everyone for disagreeing with you, Jesus.

I've never been so tempted to click ignore for someone in my life. And that's saying something.

 

[TTTTTsd]

What's really unhealthy for this game's competitive scene is complaining about it all the time and solving nothing in the process. Like, all the time you spend complaining about a character could be spent doing something more productive like either labbing or even CREATIVE AND THOUGHTFUL matchup analysis. This Bayonetta dreck has gotten old, there's a whole thread for it.

When the patching ends, who's going to make this game? It's going to be the community, and I am slowly but surely losing that faith in certain members. Godspeed.

 

[Mr. Johan]

You can't just nerf characters because they're not fun to fight... You could nerf every cast member besides like Pit and Palutena with that logic.

I find Pits fast back roll and frame 5 down smash to not be the most fun thing to fight against, personally. :v

 

[Radical Larry]

What's really unhealthy for this game's competitive scene is complaining about it all the time and solving nothing in the process.

When the patching ends, who's going to make this game? It's going to be the community, and I am slowly but surely losing that faith in certain members. Godspeed.

We have Equipment, don't we?

Regardless, who's going to make the game will be the community, but what we need to wonder is, to what level will we actually make this game?

 

[Xandercosm]

First of all, you are using the word degenerate wrong. I'm gonna assume you mean mindless.

Fighting bayo is definitely not a mindless endeavor. She requires an intelligent and conservative use of your moves. This isn't melee, and this isn't your average opponent. You can't just throw out hitboxs and expect not to be punished.

This "degenerate" play is literally what I've had to do my whole smash career, and what everyone else has been doing forever. Do you even know what you are talking about? Are we even playing the same game?

You're entitled to your opinion, but you need stop insulting everyone for disagreeing with you, Jesus.

I've never been so tempted to click ignore for someone in my life. And that's saying something.

Actually, right now it seems everyone is contributing. We are all getting angry at each others' disagreeing. You are lucky this thread contains mostly people that fall within the small subset of Smashers who think Bayo is not OP. If it weren't for that, maybe you would be the one who is harassed for their opinion and has defend it all alone.

Anyway, as ぱみゅ said, this discussion should come to a close.

 

[NotLiquid]

Sorry, I forgot this thread takes tongue-in-cheek humour way too seriously.

You want my actual opinion? It's absolutely Spain's choice to do what they think is healthiest for their scene. That doesn't mean you have to agree with their choice, and I don't. Nor do you have to refrain from commenting on said choice when it is, by its very nature, affecting things on an international scale. We're not talking about one local banning Bayonetta, we're talking about a country. Get down from your soapboxes and get some perspective.

Anyway, I'm veering dangerously into ban Bayo territory and this was a horrible discussion to begin with.

---------

I for one would like to discuss Diddy's losing MUs, or lack thereof. Are we saying he loses to Cloud?

Having just come fresh off of some Cloud matches with Diddy I'd say the one thing that makes Cloud vs Diddy more even in favor of the latter is Diddy having a Banana. It gives him a good mid-range pressure game against Cloud who can otherwise wall Diddy out easily. Trip Cloud up and he's not going to have many reliable answers to once you're actually up close. When Cloud has a limit is when the matchup turns incredibly scary.

 

[KamikazePotato]

Ike vs Sheik wasn't that bad prepatch, like it was bad but it wasn't terrible. Now though I feel like its a lot closer whenever I play vs Sheiks, her lack of kill power now is really bad for her against a character as heavy as him and with rage he'll start killing her at like 60 which is really nice
His neutral is also pretty damn good despite his poor mobility, huge disjoint with good shield pokes and grabs is great

Ike is one of the most slept-on characters in the current metagame, I think. He's right around that Falcon/Corrin level but people seem much more willing to use those two (and others) than him. Probably because he was really bad when the game first came out (although that didn't stop people from jumping on Mewtwo the moment he got significant buffs).

 

[Djmarcus44]

Do any of mii's have kill confirms? I know gunner has some stuff with missile -> charge shot, but I don't think he can really fish for this since the charge shot has to be fired before the missile is confirmed to hit. (Or is it charge shot from flame pillar?)

Idk, I do imagine gunner has some decent traps due to his range and long lasting hitboxes...

But do any of the other miis get kill confirms off of tilts or landing aerials? something consistently able to be landed even if someon knows the MU?

Gunner can confirm into charge blast from the weak hit of flame pillar. Fair to charge blast is also a kill setup, but it is not always guaranteed. The lack of kill confirms relative to the rest of the cast is one of Mii Gunner's biggest weaknesses. Gunner gets most of his/her kills by taking advantage of our decently fast killing options and catching an opponent's landings or ledge options. Gunner also gets some kills from canceling jab into any tilt or smash. Although jab canceling into kill moves isn't guaranteed for Gunner, it has proven to be pretty reliable in tournament play.

In terms of Bayo, I really wish I could've gotten sometime to see how Gunner vs Bayo works at Hypespotting but I didn't get the chance. Seems like an interesting match up, in terms of Gunner's walling capabilities with their projecticles (Including their almighty fair which could shut down side b happy Bayos) as well as having some amazing edgeguarding tools, which might be able to mess up Bayo's own amazing recovery.

On the flipside, Gunner only has one move that comes out before Frame 5, which means anything Gunner tries up close could end up with them eating a Witch Twist and subsequently eating a huge combo. Since Gunner doesn't have anything overly powerful at a range (Charge Blast is such a wimpy move) then when it comes to netting a KO, Gunner is going to have to make a risk. That or try to challenge Bayo's recovery with their edgeguarding, which isn't impossible but isn't going to be easy.

On paper it seems like something that could be manageable, but from what I can tell Gunner would be able to avoid a lot of Bayo's "jank" and be able to play through the matchup fairly well as long as they're careful about fighting her up close.

Gunner has a couple of multi-hitting attacks with long lasting hitboxes that are hard for Bayonetta to punish. Gunner's up smash is a pretty good kill option against Bayonetta since the hitboxes make it hard for Bayonetta to punish the move. Forward smash and up air are also pretty tough for a Bayonetta player to punish. While charge blast isn't very strong, it is very useful in this matchup for getting Bayonetta to approach and punishing her side b. I have been able to beat a Bayonetta player in my area that is a better player than me by stuffing Bayonetta's approaching options, and getting kills from covering Bayonetta's landing. In my opinion, this matchup is even at worst for Gunner.

 

[Y2Kay]

Actually, right now it seems everyone is contributing. We are all getting angry at each others' disagreeing. You are lucky this thread contains mostly people that fall within the small subset of Smashers who think Bayo is not OP. If it weren't for that, maybe you would be the one who is harassed for their opinion and has defend it all alone.

Anyway, as ぱみゅ said, this discussion should come to a close.

Actually, it was just you going back and forth with this thread with flawed and baseless arguments.

Didn't help that you played dirty ball and insulted people, calling them degenerates and buffoons.

Whatever, this conversation is over with anyway

 

[sedrf]

So from what I'm seeing is mario/bayo even?

 

[S_B]

Her damage combos still require her to anticipate and follow your DI, often with very specific spacing.

She only gets easymode 50% confirms because people don't bother to DI stuff.

Note that it depends heavily upon the size of the character she's comboing, though.

All the DI in the world isn't going to save a big enough target...

Every game Mr.R is in?

Given that he was carried off the side of the screen by Pinkfresh's Bayo at pound, I'm not sure this is the best example...

 

[DblCrest]

@Zelder
Actually that link to another Sakurai interview on balancing sedrt posted, will hopefully put an end to the FFA part.
Though that's just me being optimistic :D

So how did Mikekirby do so well this time?

 

[Nah]

I have never understood really why some people seem to hate defensive play. I personally don't hate it, I kind of like it. It seems to be a kind of universal thing even. Like in competitive Pokemon for example, the only time I've ever had anyone complain about my team archetype is when I've used stall; never hyper offense, never balance, never anything but stall. The argument against defensive play has always been in my experience "it's boring", "it's degenerate", or other similar phrases. But as far as I can remember, I've never seen someone explain why defensive is boring or why defensive play is degenerate or why defensive play is bad for the game's future.

 

[aεrgiα]

well i took a break from this game for a while bc of fear of all the anti bayo tantrums(though rl played a large role as well) and i come back to this TT_TT

I think players hate having to feel like the only way they can play against a character is camping. If I'm gonna camp I want it to be my choice and not practically forced upon me. Also, not every character can camp.

well lets just say this the other way around, as dedede, i was forced to approach by 90% of the cast, but i didnt want to approach the other characters, that is not how i wanted to play the game, i hated the feeling of not having a choice and having approaching forced upon me, i wanted to chose when to approach... so does that now give me justification to ask for bans on 90% of the cast? regardless of whether bayo should be banned or not, this logic is just wrong on so many levels oh and for the record, dedede cant approach, at all.

This man gets it.

Playing against Bayo is basically the same match every time. I think ZeRo made a good argument when he said: it promotes degenerate gameplay which ruins the scene because nobody wants to watch anymore (cause it's boring) and nobody wants to play anymore (cause it's boring). For most people, this game is about having fun and they will simply quit when a character like Bayo is introduced. This is why Brawls attendance steadily dropped over it's life time. It got boring cause of all the cheap*** tactics.

i dont really think zero is one to talk though considering who he has mained throughout the course of this game, at what points and what hes had to say about those characters, and tbh, that video made nearly all my respect for the man fly out the window because its just plain toxic imo... and saying bayos boring but then saying sheik was different nearly made me fall off my chair from laughter
but bottom line is this, if a character with no losing match ups and potentially only winning match ups, who could do anything better than pretty much the whole rest of the cast doesnt not warrant a ban i fail to see how bayo does... or how pre patch diddy, basically a better bayonetta with a godlike neutral(does getting 30% or more off of extremely safe options in neutral with low commitment and usually killing off of said options at around 80%... sound a bit familiar?), didnt get banned either. so yes, imo bayo does deserve some nerfs, but banning her is not justified, and to say she will kill the game... if even customs villager didnt achieve that i highly doubt bayonetta will

 

[bc1910]

I would honestly say its in Diddy's favor, he's one of the only characters that can out-neutral Cloud, he also has an arguable better disadvantage. He does have a bit of trouble landing against Cloud in my experience, I've only played the MU a few times though against a fairly decent Diddy player, I would love for some other's input. Right now it seems there may be three character with a lack of bad MUs, Rosa, Diddy, and Cloud

Rosa definitely doesn't lack bad MUs. MK is still horrible for her as evidenced by Dabuz vs Aba recently, and Cloud is bad as well.

I'd argue Cloud, Diddy and possibly Bayo are the only characters with no -1 MUs. Potentially Sheik as well, but I think she loses to Bayo and there are a number of Brawler-types who do really well against her now.

Come to think of it, who does Sonic lose to? Most of the likely candidates have been nerfed. Cloud, maybe? Fox?

 

[Pancracio17]

i think lucario is bad for shiek now, 30% is her kill percent

 

[Phan7om]

Not directed at anyone in specific but...

If you think playing patient automatically = boring, to put it nicely, you've got a lot of learning to do. Ive seen countless players play patient/defensive and no one said anything about being boring, in fact some of the time they were considered some of they hypest players to watch lol.

 

[sedrf]

That is to say sometimes some defensive options are too good and drag the match to a screeching halt.
Maybe if we apply what anti said things would be better here.

If someone has an opinion on something you should ask them why do they feel that way rather than imposing your opinion over theirs.-anti

 

[Peppermint1201]

Have you guys ever considered that there might be a "Cloud bubble"? It is reasonable to say the amount of effort vs viability Cloud has is almost unprecedented, with everyone picking him up. Could the metagame reach a point where so many people pick Cloud that the matchup becomes widely known and his viability plummets? Has anything similar happened before in Smash history?

 

[predator_21476]

Have you guys ever considered that there might be a "Cloud bubble"? It is reasonable to say the amount of effort vs viability Cloud has is almost unprecedented, with everyone picking him up. Could the metagame reach a point where so many people pick Cloud that the matchup becomes widely known and his viability plummets? Has anything similar happened before in Smash history?

I'm not sure if it's happened in smash but it has happened in other games. An example of this is ultimate marvel 3 with wesker. Everyone was using him at first getting a ton of top 8's but counterplay developed quickly and he fell off the map.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Have you guys ever considered that there might be a "Cloud bubble"? It is reasonable to say the amount of effort vs viability Cloud has is almost unprecedented, with everyone picking him up. Could the metagame reach a point where so many people pick Cloud that the matchup becomes widely known and his viability plummets? Has anything similar happened before in Smash history?

I think that's happening to melee falco now, it's happened to melee falcon most recently, and to melee sheik in the earliest melee days. Though I don't know about viability completely plummeting, maybe a couple of spots down the tier list, I just think their mains will just innovate to counter the counter play . It's an endless cycle.

 

[thehard]

JJROCKETS posted a flowchart describing how to DI Bayo combos

Flow chart on how to DI Bayonetta's Up B -> Side B -> Up B -> Up air (WIP): pic.twitter.com/oj7WquljCa

— JJROCKETS (@JJROCKETS) April 6, 2016

 

[G. Stache]

Not gonna go into the Bayonetta debate, but another topic seemed to stem from it that I kinda want to get into.

When you say that defensive play is boring to watch, you should make sure you're stating that as an opinion, and not trying to say it as if you're stating a fact. I'm not gonna lie, DaBuzz has to be one of my favorite top level smashers to watch. I, personally, love to watch his incredibly smart play and he was part of the reason why Genesis was my favorite smash tournament as of now. Don't know why some of us have to always condemn defensive play and call it 'lame' or 'degenerate' as if we're the new Twitch chat. We should all at least be able to respect a good defensive game if we understand Smash 4. It's not like our hearts are going to stop suddenly and shrivel up if we don't see something that's not 'hype af'. At the very least, be glad for the fact that it's not Melee, where a certain top player could play Jigglypuff's Bair: the character and get away with it. Defensive play in this game makes people actually have to think. It's certainly not braindead and, unless this community can't learn to go 5 seconds without mashing buttons, it's definitely not going to kill the game.

 

[Big-Cat]

Thank God someone actually hit the freaking lab. If we had a recording feature I wouldn't done this myself. Regardless, this was needed.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Don't you have to DI differently if she hits you with reverse Witch twist?

 

[EnhaloTricks]

You just do the opposite, but recognizing and DIing the reverse Witch Twist correctly isn't gonna happen in game unless you know they're gonna go for it. But, tbh, I don't see a lot of Bayo's do the reverse version anyways.

 

[Pancracio17]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNO5FudmyAc&nohtml5=False

on the topic of people labbing how to beat bayo, beefy smash doods did yall a favor.

 

[nannerham]

Come to think of it, who does Sonic lose to? Most of the likely candidates have been nerfed. Cloud, maybe? Fox?

The megaman MU is not a fun one for sonic and I think he loses that one, lemons stuff every one of his approach options with ease and the only thing he can do is jump over them, but since megaman can condition you to jump he throw out uairs which tacks on even more percent and gives megaman a positional advantage, even when sonic reaches higher percents megaman can stick to the same gameplan since pelting people with lemons forces a reaction, megaman has his amazing bair to punish bad decisions and that can happen when your constantly hit with lemons.

https://www.twitch.tv/theodofaction/v/59826427/?t=133m20s

Here's what the MU looks like when megaman knows his gameplan it can be quite painful.

 

[Fatmanonice]

First time posting in here, hey guys. To try and shift away from the bayo argument, what's up with ike this patch? Shiek was one of his major roadblocks which got nerfed, and he's been said to do pretty well against the likes of ness, pika, and maybe rosa, yet no one really seems to acknowledge his position in the meta as of now, or has he been overshadowed by cloud too much?

Yes, unfortunately. I think Ike is amazing now and I could practically french kiss Sakurai for making the character fully realized in Smash but Cloud simply outdoes Ike in a number of ways.

-a projectile
-Not one but two trumps
-Better mobility and faster attacks
-the ability to juggle

Cloud is basically Mario with a sword and this naturally outclasses the other swordsmen in the game. I would, however, make the bold argument that Ike now ties or is only a little bit behind Metaknight for second best swordsman in the game. Ike's definitely threatening now but Cloud's so good all around that, yes, it makes Ike less relevant.

Have you guys ever considered that there might be a "Cloud bubble"? It is reasonable to say the amount of effort vs viability Cloud has is almost unprecedented, with everyone picking him up. Could the metagame reach a point where so many people pick Cloud that the matchup becomes widely known and his viability plummets? Has anything similar happened before in Smash history?

Brawl had a lot of examples of this with Dedede, Game and Watch, and ROB being the most notable. Especially with Dedede, their metagames stagnated when people came to realize that they didn't have a whole lot of depth. Dedede's game plan like 70% chain grabs, ROB was to be as annoying as humanly possible with projectiles, and Game and Watch was tech chases and shield pokes. Given Cloud's current lack of weaknesses, I don't think it would happen to the same degree unless strategies with him just de-evolved in auto pilot ****ery.

 

[Dinoman96]

https://www.nintendo.com/consumer/network/en_na/network_status.jsp

So, it looks like Nintendo's doing maintenance with their servers. Patch soon? Or is this not affecting Smash?

 

[NotLiquid]

https://www.nintendo.com/consumer/network/en_na/network_status.jsp

So, it looks like Nintendo's doing maintenance with their servers. Patch soon? Or is this not affecting Smash?

Smash isn't listed.

Don't expect anything.

 

[FullMoon]

JJROCKETS posted a flowchart describing how to DI Bayo combos

Flow chart on how to DI Bayonetta's Up B -> Side B -> Up B -> Up air (WIP): pic.twitter.com/oj7WquljCa

— JJROCKETS (@JJROCKETS) April 6, 2016

And people complaining about having to learn all that to deal with Bayo.

This community is so lazy

 

[Fatmanonice]

The megaman MU is not a fun one for sonic and I think he loses that one, lemons stuff every one of his approach options with ease and the only thing he can do is jump over them, but since megaman can condition you to jump he throw out uairs which tacks on even more percent and gives megaman a positional advantage, even when sonic reaches higher percents megaman can stick to the same gameplan since pelting people with lemons forces a reaction, megaman has his amazing bair to punish bad decisions and that can happen when your constantly hit with lemons.

https://www.twitch.tv/theodofaction/v/59826427/?t=133m20s

Here's what the MU looks like when megaman knows his gameplan it can be quite painful.

In my own experience, leaf shield stops all of Sonic's approach options full stop too. It cancels out both spin dashes, dash attack, and even his homing attack. No joke, I've won matches as Megaman against Sonic by spamming this move half of the match.

 

[ligersandtigons]

I have never understood really why some people seem to hate defensive play. I personally don't hate it, I kind of like it. It seems to be a kind of universal thing even. Like in competitive Pokemon for example, the only time I've ever had anyone complain about my team archetype is when I've used stall; never hyper offense, never balance, never anything but stall. The argument against defensive play has always been in my experience "it's boring", "it's degenerate", or other similar phrases. But as far as I can remember, I've never seen someone explain why defensive is boring or why defensive play is degenerate or why defensive play is bad for the game's future.

I think the hate comes from defensive play not being perceived as being on the same level of skill as offensive play. And I do think there's some truth to that. It's easier to be successful playing defensively than it is playing offensively. You see this not only in smash, but in other stuff too like in the nhl, ufc, etc. For any medium of entertainment based upon competition, the average fan watches to see a display of skill (offensive play) rather than a display of smarts (defensive play).

 

[TTTTTsd]

Given Cloud's current lack of weaknesses,

Look. I think Cloud is a fantastic character and easily one of the best in the game but could we please not get too crazy? There is a fine line between praise/analysis and like, blatantly overrating a character.

His lackluster ground game is a weakness, his throws are for all intents and purposes a weakness when he has Limit fully charged, his grab is bad (like, the range is actually terrible, both on standing and dash grab), there's probably a few more I can nitpick but I feel like keeping it simple for the sake of posting this.

Just because a weakness isn't pronounced or damning doesn't make it not there. Sheik lacked a real weakness before the patch (I didn't really mind all that much) because she had a 50/50. Cloud's aerials are 1st class, they really are, but they don't magically amplify his ground game (they amplify his air to ground game but on the ground itself he only has his mobility and like, Ftilt and Dtilt on occasion, Cross Slash is a good anti-air if you can do it on reaction well enough and the opponent isn't a floaty).

Do note that I don't think Cloud is bad, I think he's easily among the best in the game. But like, let's not get too ahead of ourselves.

Also a good reason to use Ike would be what we in the biz call a grab game and a more well rounded ground game. Obviously you're not picking Ike if you want to pick the best sword character but that could be said of a lot of characters in this game, but Cloud and Ike fill completely different niches with their gameplan.

 

[Peppermint1201]

And people complaining about having to learn all that to deal with Bayo.

This community is so lazy

a guide to avoiding her combos isnt an instant way to "deal with" her. she still has a great kit without them and ****ing witch time

 

[DblCrest]

I think the defensive play stigma comes from making comparisons to Melee where aggressive/offensive play is always 'the hype'. But Rosalina = Residentsleeper =/

 

[TTTTTsd]

a guide to avoiding her combos isnt an instant way to "deal with" her. she still has a great kit without them and ****ing witch time

It's more than what 80% of the community is doing so I consider it a large step forward.

Nice to see actual effort on the subject today, it's all coming out of the woodworks now! Interdasting.

 

[Big-Cat]

a guide to avoiding her combos isnt an instant way to "deal with" her. she still has a great kit without them and ****ing witch time

Give a solution and people still complain. Dealing with her simply means you can manage the matchup with this knowledge. No one is seriously thinking that she's trash now.