Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TurboLink]

I think players hate having to feel like the only way they can play against a character is camping. If I'm gonna camp I want it to be my choice and not practically forced upon me. Also, not every character can camp.

 

[Xandercosm]

I think players hate having to feel like the only way they can play against a character is camping. If I'm gonna camp I want it to be my choice and not practically forced upon me. Also, not every character can camp.

This man gets it.

Playing against Bayo is basically the same match every time. I think ZeRo made a good argument when he said: it promotes degenerate gameplay which ruins the scene because nobody wants to watch anymore (cause it's boring) and nobody wants to play anymore (cause it's boring). For most people, this game is about having fun and they will simply quit when a character like Bayo is introduced. This is why Brawls attendance steadily dropped over it's life time. It got boring cause of all the cheap*** tactics.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Don't say fighters because this is how most fighters work. You get hit? You feel a lot of pain. Most fighters are unforgiving.

The issue with Bayo is her monstrous reward off several strong neutral tools. Reward other characters can't come close too.

This. Her reward for landing basic set ups is hilariously skewed and she's now the only character in the game that has blueprint 0-deaths anymore. Easy to use high damage combos + arguably the best landing options in the game + one of the best recoveries + one of the best combo breakers + the best counter + no lack of reliable kill options = someone who significantly outclasses a good portion of the cast.

 

[NegaNixx]

KKON16 top 16

Spoiler: results

1st: Larry Lurr (,,)
2nd: VoiD ()
3rd: Mike kirby ()
4th: Dren ()
5th: 6WX ()
5th: ZekkenB ()
7th: K0rean ()
7th: Wing it ()
9th: Ninjalink (,,)
9th: Jalex ()
9th: Kennypu ()
9th: Fruitbasket ()
13th: Brigade ()
13th: DanM()
13th: Snappy (,)

13th: Deno (???)

I couldn't find anything on deno for the life of me, if you guys know what character he uses let me know.

Apparently Deno mains Yoshi.

Rise of the Dinosaur.

 

[Pancracio17]

playing defensive is not degenerate lol

 

[Fatmanonice]

playing defensive is not degenerate lol

While I don't disagree, this was one of the bigger gripes about Brawl and most people get miffed when basic tactics have to significantly change for a character or two. I don't agree with this mentality but, at the same time, I get where they are coming from.

 

[outfoxd]

While I don't disagree, this was one of the bigger gripes about Brawl and most people get miffed when basic tactics have to significantly change for a character or two. I don't agree with this mentality but, at the same time, I get where they are coming from.

Lotta people respect Mayweather but damned if most people like watching him work.

 

[irokex13]

I think players hate having to feel like the only way they can play against a character is camping. If I'm gonna camp I want it to be my choice and not practically forced upon me. Also, not every character can camp.

So you're telling me that I have to adjust my playstyle to competently fight against different characters? That's no fun. I should be able to play however I want with zero consequences.

Anyways, when are we banning Captain Falcon? His oppressive uair strings can easily rack up 30%, his dash attack and dash grab cover too many options on the ground, his knee kills obscenely early, and he has 3 kills throws along with a combo throw. Honestly, this character is toxic and promotes degenerate, campy play and will kill the game if left unchecked.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Who honestly wants to play Miis when they have so many bans against their customers moveset, which I feel limits them heavily. Like Palutena, a non 1-1-1-1 set is mandatory or they will stay near bottom tier. They are so underplayed, is there even one mii gunner/brawler/swordsman mii who posts on here? Well there's that one new gunner poster I saw that's about it. And thus, no one talks about them, I forgot often they are in the game. Personally they are doomed to the bottom since of the rulesets of the game, flat out. No one wants to explore their Meta when there is pretty much zero support to work with them in the community or even a notable top player to set a framework for newbies? How about that Pound 2016, no Miis there that placed high I think.

Even the ban on FG hurts them, not everyone always has a partner at hand to spar or wants to look on ladders for matches, pretty much searching in the character boards which may or may not have members on at the time.

Poor miis are screwed. Shame because they came out better than anticipated, I loath them before

As for Charizard and Duck Hunt...well Zard got a nice shave in frames and Duck Hunt is slowly creeping up in results. They have a little room to grow. I'm going to say a little for now, and can make the mid tiers with some dedication in the lower end.

More than I can say for Miis.

m2k has shown a bit of Charizards potential, and he's from like the very bottom of his very, very, VERY deep pockets
He has a lot of potential compared to whats actually been explored

Every game Mr.R is in?

Like nobody is perfect but you have to be intentionally ignoring any notable set with a bayo to ask this >.>

Also holy ****, bunbun, all of bayo's combos have heavy interactivity and only someone who has no understanding of the character would complain that they don't.
Even her simplest kill confirm (up-b > side-b > up-b > uair) is at best a 50/50 for bayo (dependent on the opponent's DI) and likely worse than that.

A 50/50 after every move. And big bodies? Please

Off topic but I still find it funny that the only people actually defending this character the people who play her.
No, I don't think she's not the best in the game, but she is incredibly unbalanced with only one other character having the POTENTIAL to do as much damage in one completely guaranteed combo and hes an extremely hard to play character who's probably going to remain overlooked because why would you play a harder character that does essentially the same things? She needs her damage output lowered, a simple dABK -> dABK -> fair 123 is ~30% right there, and then you read their DI you can do things like dtilt -> fair 1 -> ABK -> dABK -> WT -> fair 123 for ~50, then you're more than halfway to kill %. She also has a completely unmatched disadvantage state with 2 moves that convert immediately from the disadvantage to the advantage, or death. She also has good burst movement and a good recovery (unless your name is Marth or Pikachu) to get her out of bad situations.

 

[Radical Larry]

KKON16 top 16

Spoiler: results

1st: Larry Lurr (,,)
2nd: VoiD ()
3rd: Mike kirby ()
4th: Dren ()
5th: 6WX ()
5th: ZekkenB ()
7th: K0rean ()
7th: Wing it ()
9th: Ninjalink (,,)
9th: Jalex ()
9th: Kennypu ()
9th: Fruitbasket ()
13th: Brigade ()
13th: DanM()
13th: Snappy (,)

13th: Deno (???)

I couldn't find anything on deno for the life of me, if you guys know what character he uses let me know.

Oh hello, I see a Link there. And two Yoshi. And a Little Mac and Kirby and Mega Man and Mewtwo. Was this a Locals, Regionals or Major tournament? This is an interesting turnout.

So I have an additional tournament for my advocating of a Lower Middle Tier Link placement, since Link's more of a middle tiered character than a lower tiered character.

 

[Xandercosm]

playing defensive is not degenerate lol

If you choose to ignore the facts, that's okay. Just don't ruin the scene with your boring ideas for a competitive game that drive away viewers and players.

 

[LancerStaff]

You can't just nerf characters because they're not fun to fight... You could nerf every cast member besides like Pit and Palutena with that logic.

 

[Girthquake]

Falling inhale isn't anywhere as good as it was in Brawl. It was a really good option back then because it could stop attacks almost as abruptly as Wario's chomp could but they largely neutered it in this game. In Brawl, you could safely do it point blank with little consequence. It went from being one of his best defensive options to just simply being okay. I will concede on Mac having worse landing options, however. Dedede's easily bottom 5 though: if I were to reevaluate my previous position.

A big reason why Inhale isn't as great in this game as it was in Brawl is the loss of grab armor. A lot of times Inhale is unsafe because instead of trading some % for a command grab you simply get 3% and massively punished. Without a doubt DDD is a bottom 5 character and saying "Gordos" and "Big D" Doesn't change that. The character is fundamentally flawed on several levels and only gets worse each patch either being ignored as others around his level get fixes/buffs or just flat out being nerfed.

 

[TurboLink]

So you're telling me that I have to adjust my playstyle to competently fight against different characters? That's no fun. I should be able to play however I want with zero consequences.

Anyways, when are we banning Captain Falcon? His oppressive uair strings can easily rack up 30%, his dash attack and dash grab cover too many options on the ground, his knee kills obscenely early, and he has 3 kills throws along with a combo throw. Honestly, this character is toxic and promotes degenerate, campy play and will kill the game if left unchecked.

Dash attack and dash grab cover too many options on the ground you say!? Do they cover, hmm, say sidestepping?

Knee does kill earlier than a lot of attacks. It also has poor range, comes out at frame 14, has 30 frames of landing lag when it doesn't auto-cancel, can be punishable on hit with the sourspot at certain percentages, and has to be sweet spotted to hit that hard.

Everyone has kill throws. Everyone's throws will eventually kill. It's when they kill that makes them a viable kill option or not.

It's funny that you say Captain Falcon promotes degenerative, camply play, because a lot of the characters he beats (imo) are characters who want to play campy.

You would've been better off using Ryu with his True Shoryuken and the amount of damage he can rack up with the right hits.

 

[Zelder]

I hate to contribute further to this awful discussion, but here are my worthless two cents:

My only real complaint with Bayonetta is that you must afford her so much respect, and she doesn't have to pay you any respect back at all, haha. It's a bit mentally exhausting. But really, it's the same mindset of fighting pre-patch Sheik - you gotta respect what she can do, and she's going to kind of run roughshod over your options. I think that's the nature of top tiers in Smash as opposed to other fighters - because mobility is king and killing is unusual compared to other fighters, the top tiers in these games feel a bit more oppressive compared to some other fighting games. On the other hand, Marvel 2 & 3, SF3, SF2, and a bunch of other games have super oppressive top tiers, so maybe I'm just talking about of my ass and I shouldn't write posts when I'm super exhausted from doing stand up comedy the night before.

So, in summation, Bayonetta is a land of contrasts.

 

[outfoxd]

I hate to contribute further to this awful discussion, but here are my worthless two cents:

My only real complaint with Bayonetta is that you must afford her so much respect, and she doesn't have to pay you any respect back at all, haha. It's a bit mentally exhausting. But really, it's the same mindset of fighting pre-patch Sheik - you gotta respect what she can do, and she's going to kind of run roughshod over your options. I think that's the nature of top tiers in Smash as opposed to other fighters - because mobility is king and killing is unusual compared to other fighters, the top tiers in these games feel a bit more oppressive compared to some other fighting games. On the other hand, Marvel 2 & 3, SF3, SF2, and a bunch of other games have super oppressive top tiers, so maybe I'm just talking about of my *** and I should write posts when I'm super exhausted from doing stand up comedy the night before.

So, in summation, Bayonetta is a land of contrasts.

Other fighters have some nightmarish top tiers and mus. I remember playing Calamity Trigger Tager against Nu and crying myself to sleep every night.

 

[Solfiner]

If you choose to ignore the facts, that's okay. Just don't ruin the scene with your boring ideas for a competitive game that drive away viewers and players.

Except Street Fighter 4 is one of the most popular modern fighting games and that game does indeed promote very defensive and smart play.

 

[Metal B]

Except Street Fighter 4 is one of the most popular modern fighting games and that game does indeed promote very defensive and smart play.

Street Fighter 4 has also a good balance of low and high moments in one match. The moments of defensive play stay in great contrast of the explosion of flashy combos. This is how you build a great narrative, which makes a match exciting and entertaining.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Street Fighter 4 has also a good balance of low and high moments in one match. The moments of defensive play stay in great contrast of the explosion of flashy combos. This is how you build a great narrative, which makes a match exciting and entertaining.

That's kinda what this game has too. Landing traps are so prevalent in this game that I'd be hard pressed to say otherwise.

 

[williamsga555]

A big reason why Inhale isn't as great in this game as it was in Brawl is the loss of grab armor. A lot of times Inhale is unsafe because instead of trading some % for a command grab you simply get 3% and massively punished.

This is exactly what I was going to post but couldn't find the wording for when this discussion was going on. Loss of grab armor hurts DDD in particular because of the commitment inhale brings on both startup and endlag. Would be an interesting change if they brought it back for inhale, but I think the likelihood of that is moon-shot levels of no way.

 

[|RK|]

KKON16 top 16

Spoiler: results

1st: Larry Lurr (,,)
2nd: VoiD ()
3rd: Mike kirby ()
4th: Dren ()
5th: 6WX ()
5th: ZekkenB ()
7th: K0rean ()
7th: Wing it ()
9th: Ninjalink (,,)
9th: Jalex ()
9th: Kennypu ()
9th: Fruitbasket ()
13th: Brigade ()
13th: DanM()
13th: Snappy (,)

13th: Deno (???)

I couldn't find anything on deno for the life of me, if you guys know what character he uses let me know.

...Larry used Mario against MikeKirby, didn't he?

 

[Chalice]

...Larry used Mario against MikeKirby, didn't he?

He actually used DK

 

[bc1910]

I think the cast is already pretty weak as a whole.

Aside from Bayo and Cloud, I really wouldn't want any more nerfs except to the crazy jank like Rosa Uair off-the-top at 0. And most of that is caused by rage.

Even Sheik, probably the 3rd or 4th best character, feels weak a lot of the time. Her neutral might still be great, but you do have to occasionally remind yourself that after 10 slaps she's barely done 40%.

Note that I'm not complaining about nerfs (I think most of the nerfs in this game have been justified) but the devs seem to have found a power level that works for ~90% of the cast and I don't think they need to lower that power level. There are just a couple of outliers above and below it that could use fine-tuning.

So you're telling me that I have to adjust my playstyle to competently fight against different characters? That's no fun. I should be able to play however I want with zero consequences.

Anyways, when are we banning Captain Falcon? His oppressive uair strings can easily rack up 30%, his dash attack and dash grab cover too many options on the ground, his knee kills obscenely early, and he has 3 kills throws along with a combo throw. Honestly, this character is toxic and promotes degenerate, campy play and will kill the game if left unchecked.

Don't worry, Spain already banned him for toxicity, overpowered-ness, toxicity, being boring, and toxicity.

Pretty sure that's their ban criteria anyway.

 

[Greward]

bc1910 Being boring is not a factor, main reason is because she's completely overpowered/broken (thus becoming toxic).

 

[paperchao]

First time posting in here, hey guys. To try and shift away from the bayo argument, what's up with ike this patch? Shiek was one of his major roadblocks which got nerfed, and he's been said to do pretty well against the likes of ness, pika, and maybe rosa, yet no one really seems to acknowledge his position in the meta as of now, or has he been overshadowed by cloud too much?

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you choose to ignore the facts, that's okay. Just don't ruin the scene with your boring ideas for a competitive game that drive away viewers and players.

You sound ignorant.

Stop it.

Bad for esports? Maybe. Bad for competition? No.

Good gracious, expand your awareness please.

 

[nannerham]

Don't worry, Spain already banned him for toxicity, overpowered-ness, toxicity, being boring, and toxicity.

Pretty sure that's their ban criteria anyway.

This post isn't meant to call you out specifically, but this statement kinda bugs me. While I don't support banning bayonetta I can see why Spain did, if a character is affecting your entire scene to a point where your losing tournament attendance and stream views then you have to draw the line somewhere, whether or not you support the ban is your call but the T.O's made a decision on what was best for their scene and many people supported the choice they made in the country.

 

[Amadeus9]

It's their ****ing scene, not yours, it doesn't do anything to bother you, ****ing chill about it. Goddamnit like why

 

[Xandercosm]

You sound ignorant.

Stop it.

Bad for esports? Maybe. Bad for competition? No.

Good gracious, expand your awareness please.

I love how you feel entitled to tell me that I am "ignorant" and to "stop it". That's some ego you are boasting.

Anyway, you are actually incorrect in my opinion. Bayonetta is definitely bad for competition. She promotes boring and degenerate play that drives players away from the game. Also, to add to that, viewers being driven away hurts the game as well since that limits the audience of people paying attention to the game, making the community smaller. If you care even slightly about this game's competitive scene staying healthy, you will want Bayo to be nerfed and potentially banned otherwise.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

First time posting in here, hey guys. To try and shift away from the bayo argument, what's up with ike this patch? Shiek was one of his major roadblocks which got nerfed, and he's been said to do pretty well against the likes of ness, pika, and maybe rosa, yet no one really seems to acknowledge his position in the meta as of now, or has he been overshadowed by cloud too much?

Ike vs Sheik wasn't that bad prepatch, like it was bad but it wasn't terrible. Now though I feel like its a lot closer whenever I play vs Sheiks, her lack of kill power now is really bad for her against a character as heavy as him and with rage he'll start killing her at like 60 which is really nice
His neutral is also pretty damn good despite his poor mobility, huge disjoint with good shield pokes and grabs is great

 

[Y2Kay]

Are people really complaining about having to camp?

What has this world come to? Damn it, do what you gotta do to win! This is a competition, there's a place for fun, but Xandercosm you are taking it too far. This is such a self defeating, scrubbish way to think. Stop limiting yourself for the sake of bringing hype. If you're here to win, then act like it.

 

[Radical Larry]

Has no one ever opted to suggest incapacitating Bayonetta with Defense Equipment in order to stop this controversial topic as a whole? Because if you ask me, we would rather ban her than not utilize a more modest proposal than anything?

(Joke guys, it's a joke. Honestly, I'm very neutral about Bayonetta in competitive play, but I'll have to know the overwhelming evidence of one and the other side before coming to a penultimate conclusion in a very comprehensive and in-depth statement regarding her and her tournament status before a patch is made.)

 

[Zelder]

Bayonetta toxic talk is the new Sheik nerf theory crafting is the new FFA balance discussion is the new posting tier lists.

*loads revolver, places it to temple*

 

[bc1910]

Sorry, I forgot this thread takes tongue-in-cheek humour way too seriously.

You want my actual opinion? It's absolutely Spain's choice to do what they think is healthiest for their scene. That doesn't mean you have to agree with their choice, and I don't. Nor do you have to refrain from commenting on said choice when it is, by its very nature, affecting things on an international scale. We're not talking about one local banning Bayonetta, we're talking about a country. Get down from your soapboxes and get some perspective.

Anyway, I'm veering dangerously into ban Bayo territory and this was a horrible discussion to begin with.

---------

I for one would like to discuss Diddy's losing MUs, or lack thereof. Are we saying he loses to Cloud?

 

[Amadeus9]

I love how you feel entitled to tell me that I am "ignorant" and to "stop it". That's some ego you are boasting.

Anyway, you are actually incorrect in my opinion. Bayonetta is definitely bad for competition. She promotes boring and degenerate play that drives players away from the game. Also, to add to that, viewers being driven away hurts the game as well since that limits the audience of people paying attention to the game, making the community smaller. If you care even slightly about this game's competitive scene staying healthy, you will want Bayo to be nerfed and potentially banned otherwise.

Im looking forward to Emblem Lord stomping your ass lol

Getting sick of this bad for competition argument. There is no data whatsoever to support it. Come back and argue that when there is. There are a lot of bad things to say about bayo but currently stifling competition is not one of them.

 

[C0rvus]

I love how you feel entitled to tell me that I am "ignorant" and to "stop it". That's some ego you are boasting.

Anyway, you are actually incorrect in my opinion. Bayonetta is definitely bad for competition. She promotes boring and degenerate play that drives players away from the game. Also, to add to that, viewers being driven away hurts the game as well since that limits the audience of people paying attention to the game, making the community smaller. If you care even slightly about this game's competitive scene staying healthy, you will want Bayo to be nerfed and potentially banned otherwise.

You say "degenerate" but I say "intelligent".

God forbid a Smash player is ever dissuaded from pressing "muh buttons".

I cannot defend her design but your argument is backed by nothing but feelings and opinions (that many, many people disagree with), and has no place here. Please stop.

 

[Ninety]

Bayonetta toxic talk is the new Sheik nerf theory crafting is the new FFA balance discussion is the new posting tier lists.

*loads revolver, places it to temple*

Hey, we did end up getting our Sheik nerfs. One out of four ain't bad?

 

[Xandercosm]

You say "degenerate" but I say "intelligent".

God forbid a Smash player is ever dissuaded from pressing "muh buttons".

I cannot defend her design but your argument is backed by nothing but feelings and opinions (that many, many people disagree with), and has no place here. Please stop.

>opinions have no place here
> this is a competitive discussion thread

LOL

Im looking forward to Emblem Lord stomping your *** lol

Getting sick of this bad for competition argument. There is no data whatsoever to support it. Come back and argue that when there is. There are a lot of bad things to say about bayo but currently stifling competition is not one of them.

You are such an hilarious buffoon. All you seem to do all day is go around making "slick" one-liners. Don't you have anything better to do than act like a pre-pubescant **** all day? Seriously. I just have to ask.

Wether you agree or not, my opinion on Bayonetta still stands for all the reasons I have stated a plethora of times in previous posts.

 

[FullMoon]

This whole "Bayonetta is bad because she promotes camping" talk makes me think that her continued presence would just lead to the people who apparently can't bring themselves to be defensive because reasons to hit a roadblock against her and those who do understand the need of playing defensively to excel.

Not saying that defensive play shuts Bayo down or anything, but the more I hear about this the more it sounds like a lot of people (not everyone) only want her gone because defensive play is boring for them and they don't want anything to do with it because they like their aggressive play.

I have very little experience fighting Bayonetta though so I won't comment much on this topic. Bayo's clearly getting great results around even though she's so new but whether that's a bad thing for the meta or not I can't tell.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Sorry, I forgot this thread takes tongue-in-cheek humour way too seriously.

You want my actual opinion? It's absolutely Spain's choice to do what they think is healthiest for their scene. That doesn't mean you have to agree with their choice, and I don't. Nor do you have to refrain from commenting on said choice when it is, by its very nature, affecting things on an international scale. We're not talking about one local banning Bayonetta, we're talking about a country. Get down from your soapboxes and get some perspective.

Anyway, I'm veering dangerously into ban Bayo territory and this was a horrible discussion to begin with.

I for one would like to discuss Diddy's losing MUs, or lack thereof. Are we saying he loses to Cloud?

I would honestly say its in Diddy's favor, he's one of the only characters that can out-neutral Cloud, he also has an arguable better disadvantage. He does have a bit of trouble landing against Cloud in my experience, I've only played the MU a few times though against a fairly decent Diddy player, I would love for some other's input. Right now it seems there may be three character with a lack of bad MUs, Rosa, Diddy, and Cloud