Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[AnEventHorizon]

I ultimately categorize these results depending on the skill pool of the tourney, resulting in four different categories. As there have been no Supermajors in the last month, there are no Category 4 tournaments in this iteration.

Categories are used in this model to be able to separate skill levels by increasing the value of each result in tournaments with higher skill pools. Basically:

Category 1: 13th placing = 1 point, 9th placing = 2 points, 7th = 3 points, etc. until 1st = 8 points.

Categories 2 and 3 are much the same, except the value is increased by 2. Meaning 13th placing = 3 points (Category 2) and 5 points (Category 3), and 1st = 10 points (Category 2) and 12 points (Category 3)

Example: A Cloud that places 7th at a Category 1 tournament is awarded 3 points.

For secondaries, characters get half-value. This is to reduce inflation while still recognizing the value of the secondary.

Example: A Diddy player using Mario as a secondary gets 2nd at a Category 1 tournament. Diddy is awarded 7 points, Mario is awarded 3.5 points.

This isn't flawless for a number of reasons, including the potentially arbitrary categorization in some instances, so I have provided the tournament Top 16s used in this model:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z134y9JCbXApl2X14tMNrm-5-NqY6mzgCo1bHDM3V3s/edit?usp=sharing

"Other" includes all characters that scored below 20 points over the course of the last month. For specific results on those characters and a non-pie chart form, see this list:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11RVu-rLupjUuio796C3Ss03Q5mfyEhHZPfMyV7JEyOw/edit?usp=sharing

I did this partly to see exactly how well controversial characters did in tournaments. This is not meant to define which characters are better than other but a database of results in relevant tournies seems well worth having. This is simply my shot at ranking the characters using those results.

In case anyone was wondering (or didn't notice that not all character were listed) the only characters completely lacking any numbers/results were Ganondorf, Shulk, Roy, Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, Mii Swordfighter, and Mii Gunner.

Dark Pit, Dr. Mario, and the Miis are easy to explain away.

Roy's empty book of results continues.

Ganondorf's still considered by many to be one of the worst ( I also think he suffers a lot from people's familiarity with him - who hasn't played Ganondorf at least a little across all these Smash games? Who hasn't heard how to beat him, or faced someone slightly similar in C. Falcon?).

And then ... there's Shulk. But of course you'd expect him to be horrendously low in a list that is literally incapable of trying to hype up his theory.

 

[Blobface]

After watching that Beefy Smash Dudes video DIing Bayonetta's combos seems surprisingly intuitive. It seems to me you want to DI away from where she's going to be, not where she is.

 

[TTTTTsd]

After watching that Beefy Smash Dudes video DIing Bayonetta's combos seems surprisingly intuitive. It seems to me you want to DI away from where she's going to be, not where she is.

I think visual aid + seeing it in motion will help a LOT of people (including myself) in the near future. Diagrams and like, infographs like that really really help.

 

[Lag Chan]

I think the defensive play stigma comes from making comparisons to Melee where aggressive/offensive play is always 'the hype'. But Rosalina = Residentsleeper =/

This is pretty much the case, when people think of Smash they think of Melee and automatically assume that anything Smash must be about insane mobility options and flashy combos. Anything that isn't is boring and shouldn't be played. What's worse is that it spills into characters too, where people assume "Mobility/Combos = Good character" so people can either big up characters who aren't as good as they seem because they have these factors or dismiss characters as bad because they don't have these factors.

In the worst case of things, you could say the negative stigma is why people hate customs so much. They take one look at how custom Villager plays and they go mental at the idea of an already campy characters acting even more so. Not to deny that custom Villager is dumb as hell in a lot of ways, but the idea of the game becoming more defensive because of customs isn't going to help the public opinion of defensive play as a whole.

Who knows what'll happen, I mean people still root for characters like Mega Man and Duck Hunt so with a diverse meta on the horizon we could see more love for defensive play.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Look. I think Cloud is a fantastic character and easily one of the best in the game but could we please not get too crazy? There is a fine line between praise/analysis and like, blatantly overrating a character.

His lackluster ground game is a weakness, his throws are for all intents and purposes a weakness when he has Limit fully charged, his grab is bad (like, the range is actually terrible, both on standing and dash grab), there's probably a few more I can nitpick but I feel like keeping it simple for the sake of posting this.

The problem with this is that his weaknesses are largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of his game plan. It's like when people assert that Rosalina's weight or Mario's range are weaknesses but, when tournaments actually unfold, they're not that much of a limiting factor. It's like with Fox and Diddy: both are characters that people argue don't really have any major weaknesses either but saying this is basically the case for Cloud is somehow obtuse? There's a reason people call Cloud "Sword Mario" and, up until recently, people swore that Mario was going to stale and go in decline by stating his "weaknesses" but the character has continued to stay relevant despite them. I agree, it is nitpicking because it's arguing things that should limit the characters but really aren't. I'd rebut that it's not a good practice to underrate a character's obvious strengths either.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The problem with this is that his weaknesses are largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of his game plan. It's like when people assert that Rosalina's weight or Mario's range are weaknesses but, when tournaments actually unfold, they're not that much of a limiting factor. It's like with Fox and Diddy: both are characters that people argue don't really have any major weaknesses either but saying this is basically the case for Cloud is somehow obtuse? There's a reason people call Cloud "Sword Mario" and, up until recently, people swore that Mario was going to stale and go in decline by stating his "weaknesses" but the character has continued to stay relevant despite them. I agree, it is nitpicking because it's arguing things that should limit the characters but really aren't. I'd rebut that it's not a good practice to underrate a character's obvious strengths either.

That's called the difference between a crippling or massive weakness and a weakness that you can exploit through setplay or MU experience/player vs. player knowledge. Dr. Mario has a viability crippling weakness in his mobility.

Ignoring obvious strengths is about as bad as blatantly overrating a character, touting that they're flawless, which, in this case, is EVERY TOP TIER in this game going by what I am reading because the reason they are top is because their weaknesses aren't glaring. If the criteria for a meaningless weakness is that they don't hinder tournament results, then we have like at least 8 to 15 characters who have "no weaknesses", which does not make them not present. If your weaknesses do not hinder your tournament viability that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Also Mario's range makes Swords marginally more annoying or much more annoying in some cases, and Rosa's weight is the very reason that MK still hard counters her because she doesn't enter tumble during Uair strings (which makes the new SDI modifier meaningless)

 

[C0rvus]

So having your strengths outweigh your weaknesses negates your weaknesses in practice? Or could it be that veteran/top level players are aware of their weaknesses and know how to play around them or accentuate their strengths. I'm leaning towards the latter. Like, top level Mario players shouldn't just get tossed because they are fighting a character with good range. Likewise, Cloud has a poor grab. This does affect his play, but Tweek knows how far away he can get grabs from, etc.

 

[PK Gaming]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNO5FudmyAc&nohtml5=False

on the topic of people labbing how to beat bayo, beefy smash doods did yall a favor.

Quoting for the new page because this is an incredibly good video to watch if you're serious about beating Bayonetta.

 

[S_B]

I still expect Bayo to be nerfed next patch, BTW, not because of the competitive community but because I'm sure FG Bayos are driving people insane right now...

 

[TurboLink]

I still expect Bayo to be nerfed next patch, BTW, not because of the competitive community but because I'm sure FG Bayos are driving people insane right now...

I couldn't agree more. As some people have said, Bayonetta is a noob killer and her zero-to-death combos are easy as **** to pull off on someone who doesn't know how to deal with them. Which I doubt most For Glory players do.

 

[Fatmanonice]

But wouldn't that be the whole point to begin with? If they don't really affect how well a character does (viability), can they really be called true weaknesses? Like you said, Dr. Mario has relevant weaknesses and that lead to broad counterplay tactics. Characters like Diddy, Fox, and Cloud don't really have that. They're just all around good. They have what I would call narrow counterplay tactics where it boils down more to simply outplaying them than exploiting chinks in their armor. This also isn't to say that Cloud is impossible to beat, it's just that he really doesn't have any true counterpicks at the moment. Nobody "shuts down" Cloud or makes most of his options not work and that's what I'm getting at. Okay, yes, weaknesses are technically there but they're more of an untied shoe than an achilles heel.

 

[Big-Cat]

In light of this confirmed info, I only see aerial nerfs now.

 

[C0rvus]

I see what you mean. Yeah, having minor weaknesses just makes you top/high tier in this game. Major weaknesses means there's likely a character or an entire archetype that exploits it enough to be consistently damning. I think Cloud counterplay will only get better. His holes are just kind of awkward to play at whereas his strengths are incredibly apparent and menacing for most of the cast.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If they don't really affect how well a character does (viability), can they really be called true weaknesses?

If the person using those characters has to play around those areas because the character is terrible at doing that, then yes, it's pretty obviously a weakness. The trick is forcing said character into areas where they are not strong, i.e. Cloud's disadvantage (not his offstage, mind), Rosalina without a Luma, Fox's combo weight and disadvantage.....

A weakness is just that, a weakness. No matter how you paint it, it is by definition still a thing. I would argue that if a character literally has zero ways to circumvent a crippling/problematic weakness then they're pretty badly designed (Doc's crippling weakness can still be played around if you're not worried about solo viability, for instance, and would rather focus on secondary/counterpick usage.)

 

[Dabuz]

Question for you guys, what does Bowser have over DK as a grab based heavyweight? I've been looking at his frame data, movement, ect. and the only thing I really see is having a significantly scarier ledge coverage game with bair, dtilt, fire breath, and a slightly better OOS game due to up-B, am I missing something or does DK basically do what Bowser does better?

 

[meleebrawler]

But wouldn't that be the whole point to begin with? If they don't really affect how well a character does (viability), can they really be called true weaknesses? Like you said, Dr. Mario has relevant weaknesses and that lead to broad counterplay tactics. Characters like Diddy, Fox, and Cloud don't really have that. They're just all around good. They have what I would call narrow counterplay tactics where it boils down more to simply outplaying them than exploiting chinks in their armor. This also isn't to say that Cloud is impossible to beat, it's just that he really doesn't have any true counterpicks at the moment. Nobody "shuts down" Cloud or makes most of his options not work and that's what I'm getting at. Okay, yes, weaknesses are technically there but they're more of an untied shoe than an achilles heel.

Weaknesses that are largely negated by efficient play have existed in fighting games since the dawn of time. The most common being low health on the likes of Akuma, Seth, Nu-13 or Shadow Mewtwo from Pokken. Obviously having low health won't hinder you much if you don't get hit. But the real purpose of the weakness is to make them more difficult for less-skilled players to abuse, letting only the most dedicated of players unleash their true potential.

 

[Nobie]

But wouldn't that be the whole point to begin with? If they don't really affect how well a character does (viability), can they really be called true weaknesses? Like you said, Dr. Mario has relevant weaknesses and that lead to broad counterplay tactics. Characters like Diddy, Fox, and Cloud don't really have that. They're just all around good. They have what I would call narrow counterplay tactics where it boils down more to simply outplaying them than exploiting chinks in their armor. This also isn't to say that Cloud is impossible to beat, it's just that he really doesn't have any true counterpicks at the moment. Nobody "shuts down" Cloud or makes most of his options not work and that's what I'm getting at. Okay, yes, weaknesses are technically there but they're more of an untied shoe than an achilles heel.

Fox in Melee can easily play around his weaknesses. He's the best in the game for a good reason, and what he can do is waaay overtuned on even a fundamental level (seriously why is up smash so strong). However, his weaknesses don't just magically vanish. He's still light, he's still a fastfaller, and he still gets combo'd well.

I think of all the characters you mentioned, Diddy is the only who gets anywhere close to just completely mitigating his weaknesses, namely because he has so many tricks to make up for poor aerial speed. Fox still dies quickly and gets juggled easily (only now he doesn't have the ridiculous tools of Melee), and Cloud can defend himself in the air but you'd pretty much rather be anyone else but Little Mac or maybe Ganondorf or Roy when it comes to recovering offstage.

Speaking of Roy, Lag Chan mentioned the idea that Melee affects how people view character viability, and I think Roy is the most "Melee" character in the entire game: Speedy fast faller with limited recovery who got people excited when they found out he had combos 'n stuff.

Question for you guys, what does Bowser have over DK as a grab based heavyweight? I've been looking at his frame data, movement, ect. and the only thing I really see is having a significantly scarier ledge coverage game with bair, dtilt, fire breath, and a slightly better OOS game due to up-B, am I missing something or does DK basically do what Bowser does better?

Just on a surface level, he has slightly better run speed, access to two different grabs, and the craziest pivot grab in the world. I think just the fact that Bowser has the option of how to grab the opponent (regular or Side B) changes things enough that DK isn't just the better option all the time (DK can't grab opponents while jumping, for one).

 

[Big-Cat]

Question for you guys, what does Bowser have over DK as a grab based heavyweight? I've been looking at his frame data, movement, ect. and the only thing I really see is having a significantly scarier ledge coverage game with bair, dtilt, fire breath, and a slightly better OOS game due to up-B, am I missing something or does DK basically do what Bowser does better?

From my experience, Bowser can get a kill quicker off a hit in neutral compared to DK. FTilt and Dtilt are super strong. I'll see if I can get the Bowser discord to answer this better than me.

 

[LancerStaff]

I still expect Bayo to be nerfed next patch, BTW, not because of the competitive community but because I'm sure FG Bayos are driving people insane right now...

Lag must mess with her, because I've rarely seen her after the initial onslaught. Haven't heard many people complain off of Smashboards, actually... Take away the combos (because people can't do them for one reason or another) and you're left with a pretty poor character.

 

[san.]

Question for you guys, what does Bowser have over DK as a grab based heavyweight? I've been looking at his frame data, movement, ect. and the only thing I really see is having a significantly scarier ledge coverage game with bair, dtilt, fire breath, and a slightly better OOS game due to up-B, am I missing something or does DK basically do what Bowser does better?

Slightly better ground movement, 13 frames dash->shield compared to DK's 15, and less committal ground spacing moves with jab and ftilt. Bowser loves staying grounded a lot more and can make some smart plays from that position. All I can think of quickly.

 

[Amadeus9]

Bowser's ftilt is such an insanely good button, love it. Really tho the only reason i can see to use him over DK is cause you just prefer the character in general

 

[Big-Cat]

In terms of advantage and disadvantage they're both pretty close. Differing in some aspects but not enough to outclass either one. It's more like while one is better in one aspect, the other is better in some other.

IMO, you're looking at two characters with a different emphasis on striking and grappling. Bowser is 55-45 striking-grappling while I say DK is 45-55.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Secondly, I haven't tested it, but isnt divekick on shield - divekick away in the opposite direction literally unpunishable to all but the fastest characters/projectiles in the game?

Yes it is completely unpunishable.

 

[Big-Cat]

In addition, I'd say Bowser is more bait and punish than DK so it ultimately depends on your play style preference. I think DK gets more love because of Ding Dong and BAir.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yes it is completely unpunishable.

Yeah, in a conventional sense there's not much you can do. Since it's largely dependent on stage position though you can just walk forward after it and put yourself in a better spot (If she divekicks offstage after a shield bounce it's either forced to the ledge or maybeeee gimped/dead? Not sure). I've found this to work pretty well in practice. Additionally dunno if she wants to do this on platform stages like BF where she's forced onto a plat and etc. etc.

 

[Ghostbone]

Bayonetta being forced to the ledge/edge of the stage counts as a punish.

Her options are severely limited at that point, smash players need to accept that you still get something out of shielding a move even when your frame advantage isn't enough to get a guaranteed hit in.

 

[Mister M]

I'm suprised bayos dive kick doesn't have landing lag in line with all the others (falcon, and other bombs).

Still, does anybody have a handle on lucas' main flaws. His game plan of pk fire/zair zoning air approaches, and grabbing ground approaches seems stong at first glance. He has a great grab game and great recovery options. What's holding him back?

 

[Dabuz]

Thanks for the quick answers guys <3

 

[Big-Cat]

Thanks for the quick answers guys <3

You're welcome. You have any specific Bowser questions while you're here? If you're interested I can give you a link to the discord.

 

[S_B]

BTW, I believe SSB4 just went down for maintenance...

 

[Trifroze]

People don't complain about Bayonetta because she forces you to play patiently. That's a strawman.

People complain about her because if you mess up anything you take 30-50% damage in the best case scenario, and in any other scenario you're dead. Also you can't even oppress her in disadvantage freely because of witch time and dive kicks, and at the same time her frame 1 airdodge reduces the window for true follow ups. I suppose the latter relates to having to play patiently, but that's not the problem. The main problem is that she doesn't have to play that same game.

 

[Ninety]

You know, I'm strongly of the opinion that Bayonetta is a very poorly designed character, perhaps the worst designed in the game, and is grossly overtuned (and not even necessarily in a way that agrees with her native design) -- but I'm also equally as adamant that she not be banned. In light of this, massive props and appreciation to the Beefy Smash Doods, JJRockets, and everyone else who's putting in the labwork and sharing it with the community rather than keeling over and pray to daddy Sakurai for a nerf. While I'm immensely thankful for the patches (hey, Robin main), I also rather think that the "wait/ban until they're nerfed" and "why learn them, they'll get razed to the ground next patch anyway" mentalities it engenders are more harmful to the community than most characters' dominance could ever be.

In short, thanks to those who help us with the task of gittin gud.

 

[Eugene Wang]

People complain about her because if you mess up anything you take 30-50% damage in the best case scenario

A good number of characters have bread and butters that rack up 30, even 40 percent off a confirm. Why does Bayonetta get the salt for this one?

(I'm personally of the opinion that Bayonetta is overtuned, but this isn't a good reason why.)

 

[Amadeus9]

You know, I'm strongly of the opinion that Bayonetta is a very poorly designed character, perhaps the worst designed in the game, and is grossly overtuned (and not even necessarily in a way that agrees with her native design) -- but I'm also equally as adamant that she not be banned. In light of this, massive props and appreciation to the Beefy Smash Doods, JJRockets, and everyone else who's putting in the labwork and sharing it with the community rather than keeling over and pray to daddy Sakurai for a nerf. While I'm immensely thankful for the patches (hey, Robin main), I also rather think that the "wait/ban until they're nerfed" and "why learn them, they'll get razed to the ground next patch anyway" mentalities it engenders are more harmful to the community than most characters' dominance could ever be.

In short, thanks to those who help us with the task of gittin gud.

Actually she's a really well designed character, therein lies the problem. Most of the newer DLC fighters have really smart + good designs that have good synergy within their own kits, while vanilla fighters just, are fighters.

 

[Nysyr]

I'm suprised bayos dive kick doesn't have landing lag in line with all the others (falcon, and other bombs).

Still, does anybody have a handle on lucas' main flaws. His game plan of pk fire/zair zoning air approaches, and grabbing ground approaches seems stong at first glance. He has a great grab game and great recovery options. What's holding him back?

Just give Bayo landing lag similar to extreme speed after spamming specials. /fixed



seriously tho how is espeed's landing lag still justified

 

[LancerStaff]

BTW, I believe SSB4 just went down for maintenance...

What I'm reading said it was an hour ago, and I can connect just fine. Little soon for a patch isn't it?

 

[Y2Kay]

seriously tho how is espeed's landing lag still justified

because sakurai added it to the game on purpose.........for some reason.

Probably the most bizarre nerf bar greninja's hit box increase.

 

[S_B]

Question for you guys, what does Bowser have over DK as a grab based heavyweight? I've been looking at his frame data, movement, ect. and the only thing I really see is having a significantly scarier ledge coverage game with bair, dtilt, fire breath, and a slightly better OOS game due to up-B, am I missing something or does DK basically do what Bowser does better?

I think a good way to put it is that Bowser does his best work on the ground while DK does much of his from the air.

They're both tanks, just designed around grounded vs. aerial playstyles.

That said, DK is definitely ahead of Bowser in overall viability.

 

[Ninety]

Actually she's a really well designed character, therein lies the problem. Most of the newer DLC fighters have really smart + good designs that have good synergy within their own kits, while vanilla fighters just, are fighters.

Nah. She has a good kit in that it's powerful, but within the context of Smash 4, and Smash in general, she sticks out like a sore thumb, and not in a good way. Her risk/reward is absolutely disproportionate to the rest of the cast. Ryu, Cloud and Corrin are powerful and have well-designed kits for Smash (if overtuned in places), Bayonetta's just dumb.

 

[Trifroze]

A good number of characters have bread and butters that rack up 30, even 40 percent off a confirm. Why does Bayonetta get the salt for this one?

(I'm personally of the opinion that Bayonetta is overtuned, but this isn't a good reason why.)

It wasn't all I said and the quote continues. Massive damage is the best case scenario and in any other scenario you straight up die. Against every other character taking 30-40% (such damage is still rare though) can only happen once per stock and that by itself is already the worst case scenario.