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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Minordeth

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Nah. She has a good kit in that it's powerful, but within the context of Smash 4, and Smash in general, she sticks out like a sore thumb, and not in a good way. Her risk/reward is absolutely disproportionate to the rest of the cast. Ryu, Cloud and Corrin are powerful and have well-designed kits for Smash (if overtuned in places), Bayonetta's just dumb.
Not to pick on you, but I hear this "Bayonetta is badly designed" meme quite a bit and I think people are conflating design with execution. Bayonetta is absolutely a well designed character (her moves flow together, she has a cohesive ideal behind her frame data and moves, etc.) the problem is how the dev team executed that design. Her intended weaknesses (so-so frame data, iffy approach options, and especially lag after combos) are currently somewhat out of whack with her intended strengths (stellar combo and punish game).

From a viewer's perspective, really, I think Bayo, as intended would be thrilling to watch, but Bat Within and, to a degree, Witch Time, undo some of that risk that her design implies. I still think she is fun to see, but with a frame 1 escape option, it takes some of the drama out of sets with her. And that lack of perceived struggle is why people seem to hate her.
 

Ninety

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I see your point, but honestly I think that's mostly semantics. Roy's design, in theory, is good too (fast, strong swordfighter who gives up range and meaningful disjoints as well as a mediocre recovery in exchange for powerful combos and punish game), but in execution, he's not a well-made character. Whether you call that poor design or poor execution is really up to you.

Though I'd like to take the moment to note that Bayonetta's biggest issue are her ladder combos. In the reveal trailer and her Direct you'd see stuff like, I dunno, dtilt to SH fair to dsmash, and that kinda stuff's cool and flashy, but you'll basically never see them because once you start a combo with her it's much more optimal to just carry the opponent up to the blastzone with comparatively little effort. She "suffers" from the same problem as prepatch Luigi and Diddy (and arguably MK and ZSS too) did: she might have a strong, well-put-together kit, but has one overpowering option that's so insane there's no point in using the rest of it.

(Oh, and she's also got a bunch of very strong elements, each of which could be a character's main gimmick, tied into her. Bat Within, Bullet Arts, Bullet Climax, multiple up/side Bs in the air, Witch Time, even her weird smashes. There's room to argue for a legitimately poor design there, too.)
 
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Ghostbone

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It wasn't all I said and the quote continues. Massive damage is the best case scenario and in any other scenario you straight up die. Against every other character taking 30-40% (such damage is still rare though) can only happen once per stock and that by itself is already the worst case scenario.
I mean this is plainly false

Not only is it an exaggeration on the amount of damage she does, if you fall out of a combo because she didn't predict the correct DI, you don't just take extra damage rather than dying, you don't die or take damage.

She doesn't have guaranteed 50% combos in the case that you DI CORRECTLY.

Also you can't even oppress her in disadvantage freely
I'm so sad you can't just juggle a character for free, which is completely unlike every other top tier in the game?
and at the same time her frame 1 airdodge reduces the window for true follow ups.
While this is technically true, there are just as many circumstances where her air-dodge is the worst in the game because bats just get her frame trapped into another punish, and having double the endlag of every other character makes her air-dodge extremely easy to bait and punish (or just frame trap with stuff like ZSS up-air into another ZSS up-air before she can do anything)
 
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Y2Kay

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I'm glad Beefy Smash Doods put out that video. I'm sick of people saying that DI and SDI is some fairy tale. It doesn't bail you out of jail for free or nothin' , but it can provide a window for you to flee with your stock intact, and that's good enough for me.

:150:
 

san.

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While bayo's dodges are bad and not getting to air dodge into aerials as quickly as other characters isn't great, bat's within is quite good since it slows down her opponents, leaving them less room to punish compared to other dodge options when it triggers.

I can easily see *some of Bayo's stuff reaching high damage levels. You can partially react to DI once you know the full DI spectrum of your attacks.
 

JediLink

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I'm not sure if it's happened in smash but it has happened in other games. An example of this is ultimate marvel 3 with wesker. Everyone was using him at first getting a ton of top 8's but counterplay developed quickly and he fell off the map.
I think the closer analogue from Marvel 3 would be Wolverine in Vanilla. He had a simple and effective gameplan that made him the "braindead" top tier pick, but if you could punish divekicks and stay out of the range of beserker slash he became a lot less scary.
 

Minordeth

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I see your point, but honestly I think that's mostly semantics. Roy's design, in theory, is good too (fast, strong swordfighter who gives up range and meaningful disjoints as well as a mediocre recovery in exchange for powerful combos and punish game), but in execution, he's not a well-made character. Whether you call that poor design or poor execution is really up to you.
Well, you kind of just delineated that difference out here.

Though I'd like to take the moment to note that Bayonetta's biggest issue are her ladder combos. In the reveal trailer and her Direct you'd see stuff like, I dunno, dtilt to SH fair to dsmash, and that kinda stuff's cool and flashy, but you'll basically never see them because once you start a combo with her it's much more optimal to just carry the opponent up to the blastzone with comparatively little effort. She "suffers" from the same problem as prepatch Luigi and Diddy (and arguably MK and ZSS too) did: she might have a strong, well-put-together kit, but has one overpowering option that's so insane there's no point in using the rest of it.
I think you could make a case that she is over centralized due to OOS Witch Twist, but given that quite a few characters can either juggle or ladder other characters to death, I don't see the issue specific to Bayonetta. Do the other characters that can do this do it as well as Bayo? Maybe not. But we will see how effective her ladders can get as more counter-play information is disseminated.

Even without DI, certain characters seem to be able to exploit her weaknesses and mitigate her ladders (Like in the Nyanko vs Abadango GFs).*

*As some posters have mentioned, Mewtwo may have some intrinsic properties that make him less liable to be carried to death than other characters.
 

Megamang

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Even being based around Witch Twist would be fine, its just the crazy hitboxes that go along with it. Lots of other characters have less respect-demanding tools in neutral than Witch Twist, add in divekicks and Witch Time and she can fish really hard while you have to be defensive. It feels really bad. Someone said it best, she doesn't have to respect you at all while you have to respect her every move.

---

Speaking of reasons to play certain super heavies, Zard's specials all have pretty decent utility, and his wings are nice disjoints for juggling, and his bair is a massive, dangerous hitbox.
 
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Nobie

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If I had to think of nerfs to Bayo, nerfing Witch Twist so that it's not so disjointed wouldn't be that bad of a change. It would still have the benefit of being a Frame 4 get off me/combo starter/decent recovery option, but if you could predict and challenge it more reliably (sort of like what happened to Sheik's fair), then it might not put the fear of the universe into players.

It might also be good if they increased the endlag on Witch Time so that it was closer to the other Counters in the game (though perhaps they don't do that because adding any more would make it difficult to get out of the move and then start the attack on the slowed down opponent). I mean, people are talking about how her special landing lag weakness doesn't matter because you can Witch Time cancel it, but generally speaking falling counters are bad, so with a few more frames of endlag it wouldn't matter either way. Maybe a similar thing could be done to Climax Canceling (force her to automatically shoot upon landing)?
 

Shady Shaymin

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There's been a lot of talk about the quality of the "design" of characters these past few pages, and it intrigues me to see people praising characters for solid game design choices as opposed to viability or metagame theorycraft. You guys would probably like the Extra Credits youtube channel.

To me, a well designed character should succeed in the following: having a toolkit that flows together and matches a particular playstyle, being viable enough to allow the player to achieve a reasonable degree of competitive success, and being enjoyable to actually play. When I put all these qualities together, I instantly thought of like, 10 top tiers, and that speaks volumes to how good smash 4's roster is.

For me, if we judged a character's design based on those parameters, I would find 1.1.5 diddy (or any iteration post nerf+shield stun patches) to be smash 4's best designed fighter. His toolkit not only perfectly matches the aggressive, mixup focused style I love, but it all flows perfectly around his banana win condition, between being able to pressure shield with money hump and whatnot. While the actual fun of playing a character varies from person to person, other top tiers that succeed in having a clear & playstyle and a well designed toolkit to reflect it are Sheik, Ryu, Ness, Pikachu, and Toon Link, though there are many others.
 
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Ghostbone

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It might also be good if they increased the endlag on Witch Time so that it was closer to the other Counters in the game (though perhaps they don't do that because adding any more would make it difficult to get out of the move and then start the attack on the slowed down opponent). I mean, people are talking about how her special landing lag weakness doesn't matter because you can Witch Time cancel it, but generally speaking falling counters are bad, so with a few more frames of endlag it wouldn't matter either way.
It is really easy to punish. It lasts 49 frames and you can grab their landing lag whether they witch time or not, so it's not actually a mixup that benefits her unless the opponent has no matchup experience.
It's supposed to be the best counter because it decays upon use, and its reward is heavily dependent on positioning.
Maybe a similar thing could be done to Climax Canceling (force her to automatically shoot upon landing)?
This is literally how the move already works.
 
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MARTH_IS_BAE

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Nobody is talking about this right now, but I actually think opinion of Pikachu has degraded to the point that he's being underrated. The idea of Pikachu being mid tier, to me, is ridiculous and unjustified.

There's a natural association between Esam and Pikachu, makes sense of course, but sometimes a clearer distinction needs to be made--I think Esam is personally struggling as a player right now and Pikachu is better than his recent results show.

Whenever I've watched Esam, I've noticed two things:
1) He almost always loses stocks because he does something stupid--recent examples from Pound would be totally random smash attacks that weren't close enough to the opponent to be read attempts, but rather trigger happy/misinput/not thinking through, missing QA cancels, and even screwing up his recovery and SDing.

2) He gets eliminated by Mario a frick ton. That's obvious, I think we all recognize that and realize Mario probably has an advantage over Pikachu, since he continuously loses to Marios and theory backs this up. However, when Esam gets eliminated by Marios early, opinion of Pikachu keeps dropping, and dropping... No other character gets as much slack for a single particularly bad MU as Pikachu does. This one poor MU and the effect it is having on Pikachu's results is creating an unjustly negative opinion of Pikachu to the point that he's being considered mid tier by some.


So then why do I think Pikachu is good, independent of Esam's poor showings---

1) His disadvantage is god like, and I think this is super important. QA is such a spectacular move for resetting--virtually impossible to entirely cover--that I think it singlehandedly puts him in a very good spot. QAs massive landing area combined with actual good falling aerials for landing (unlike most claims) in dair, or even side b for escaping to the ledge. This is in addition to a remarkable recovery, frame 3 nair and thunder for combo breaking, good ledge options, and his lack of being a fast faller, and size.

2) His neutral is really strong, this is generally accepted but sometimes ignored in discussion. Fair extends Pikachu a good distance and can contest a whole lot, retreating FH nair is fast, safe, and leaves Pika open for other defensive options if the opponent pursues, fsmash' range and safety (except when Esam randomly spams it), his dtilt has legitimately good range and sets up into stuff like more dtilts or grabs, dash attack is a killing burst option, and then the more obvious stuff like QA, SH dair (with FF/AC mixups), utilt, his speed, and I guess his projectile, and size (which does matter). Pikachu outright out neutrals the majority of the cast.

And we know about combos/edge guarding and all that.

Here's what I think Esam is doing wrong. He plays Pikachu's neutral unnecessarily risking and unsafely, when there is no reason to. Pika can wall with AC aerials and dtilt to stop approaches while simultaneously threatening his opponent because of QA's range. Esam just tries to force advantage state instead of playing out the neutral smartly,

Most importantly, Esam uses HORRIBLE options in disadvantage always. I so incredibly rarely see Esam QA out of pressure when it is one of the character's best aspects. He instead goes for random thunders, smash attacks, grabs, and non auto canceling dairs and fairs every time he gets put in disadvantage, and it doesn't ever pay off. I think as long as Esam shows he cannot play disadvantage (this was also painfully evident with his Corrin), he will continue to lose.

As for lack of kill setups, it's pretty true. But I also think that this community is overly focused on kill set ups. For instance, people say Bayo is obviously the best character right now, because of being all around good but with crazy kill confirms.

I actually think Sheik is the best character in the game, a character that thrives on neutral and disadvantage, while good in advantage, but lacks good kill confirms before weak nair to bouncing fish starts working.

In short, as long as Pikachu can easily tack damage while not dying himself, it can compensate for his killing problems. However, I am not saying Pikachu has as much trouble killing as Sheik, because I actually don't think he does with options like fsmash, falling fair confirms, random chance of getting uthrow thunder right, and in particular his usmash, though if all else fails uthrow and ftilt start killing. Also a better chance of gimping characters than most.

Esam has been having issues with inputs, continuously failing to rar thunder correctly (by which I mean he ends up missing Pika with the lightning), using the wrong moves during a combo at the wrong times and dropping opponents, and then the random move throwing habit, especially smash attacks. And when he whiffs a smash attack, he always charges it to the max instead of releasing early once he knows he's missed, which gives the opponent time to plan the optimal punish. Esam over the last year has gotten increasingly unsafe.

Don't get me wrong, Esam is a top 10 smash player, but I think specifically, recently, and not last year, he has been having personal play style issues. He needs to learn patience and optimize Pika's options better than he is. And he needs a secondary for Mario.

Anyways, I think Pika, especially after the last patch is definitely top 15 and should be top 10. And I think his MU spread is actually really good (but not as good as Esam thinks). he is not mid tier. I know like everyone will disagree but that's okay.
 
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Trifroze

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I mean this is plainly false

Not only is it an exaggeration on the amount of damage she does, if you fall out of a combo because she didn't predict the correct DI, you don't just take extra damage rather than dying, you don't die or take damage.

She doesn't have guaranteed 50% combos in the case that you DI CORRECTLY.
I really didn't want to get into this whole argument, but here's a key part from my message again, this time bolded and increased in size so that no one misses it:

"People complain about her because if you mess up anything you take 30-50% damage in the best case scenario, and in any other scenario you're dead."

This encompasses guessing wrong in the DI mixup which I'm very aware of is there. And it's not a matter of just messing up a simple DI rule, it's about just making the wrong guess which is impossible to consistently avoid.

The part about people complaining about Bayonetta also doesn't only refer to players who know exactly what they're doing in the matchup, it includes everyone who's complaining about her just like it says. To the average player (i.e. most people who complain about Bayonetta) this type of relatively complicated situation based multi-phase DI guessing game is something they will realistically never (want to) take the time to learn and performing the combo is much easier than increasing your odds at escaping it, thus the complaints will continue and for a good reason. We aren't the only people who play the game.

I'm so sad you can't just juggle a character for free, which is completely unlike every other top tier in the game?

While this is technically true, there are just as many circumstances where her air-dodge is the worst in the game because bats just get her frame trapped into another punish, and having double the endlag of every other character makes her air-dodge extremely easy to bait and punish (or just frame trap with stuff like ZSS up-air into another ZSS up-air before she can do anything)
I specifically said you can't oppress her in disadvantage because of witch time, a part which you left out in your quote. Context / full message matters.

Also while a laggy airdodge is worse in many situations, there are also times when it doesn't make a difference. If you read an airdodge as a competent player, you're punishing it whether the endlag is 5 or 10 frames, and if you don't read it, chances are you're going to miss the punish in both cases.
 

Ghostbone

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I really didn't want to get into this whole argument, but here's a key part from my message again, this time bolded and increased in size so that no one misses it:

"People complain about her because if you mess up anything you take 30-50% damage in the best case scenario, and in any other scenario you're dead."

This encompasses guessing wrong in the DI mixup which I'm very aware of is there. And it's not a matter of just messing up a simple DI rule, it's about just making the wrong guess which is impossible to consistently avoid.
I saw your quote lol, at that point you're making multiple mistakes and getting punished hard isn't out of line in that scenario.
Or are we gonna start rioting over Fox or Cloud getting 50% strings because they read your air-dodge once or twice?
The part about people complaining about Bayonetta also doesn't only refer to players who know exactly what they're doing in the matchup, it includes everyone who's complaining about her just like it says. To the average player (i.e. most people who complain about Bayonetta) this type of relatively complicated situation based multi-phase DI guessing game is something they will realistically never (want to) take the time to learn and performing the combo is much easier than increasing your odds at escaping it, thus the complaints will continue and for a good reason. We aren't the only people who play the game.

If players aren't taking the time to learn how to play the game, then yes they're going to lose because they're getting outskilled by their opponent.
You're literally justifying people's complaints that when another player puts more time into the game, that player shouldn't beat them.


I specifically said you can't oppress her in disadvantage because of witch time, a part which you left out in your quote. Context / full message matters.

Also while a laggy airdodge is worse in many situations, there are also times when it doesn't make a difference. If you read an airdodge as a competent player, you're punishing it whether the endlag is 5 or 10 frames, and if you don't read it, chances are you're going to miss the punish in both cases.
And you can't oppress MK for free in disadvantage because of multiple jumps and dimensional cape, you can't oppress villager in disadvantage for free because dair.
Literally every good character has options to punish your options even when they're in disadvantage, the cards are just in the grounded player's favour and that's no different with bayonetta.

A laggy air-dodge is really bad because you have to air-dodge much higher from the ground to avoid landing lag, she also can't use air-dodge > fast aerial mixups because her air-dodge is so laggy.
Overall it's dishonest to claim her air-dodge is at all a problem with the character, in many more circumstances than not it's much worse than a regular frame 2 or 3 air-dodge.
 

KamikazePotato

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Yes, unfortunately. I think Ike is amazing now and I could practically french kiss Sakurai for making the character fully realized in Smash but Cloud simply outdoes Ike in a number of ways.

-a projectile
-Not one but two trumps
-Better mobility and faster attacks
-the ability to juggle

Cloud is basically Mario with a sword and this naturally outclasses the other swordsmen in the game. I would, however, make the bold argument that Ike now ties or is only a little bit behind Metaknight for second best swordsman in the game. Ike's definitely threatening now but Cloud's so good all around that, yes, it makes Ike less relevant.
I feel like if they nerfed Limit Cross Slash (and maybe Cloud's fsmash), then Ike would have a very real niche over Cloud as being the heavyweight sword option. Cloud has a projectile, is faster, has better frame data, but Ike definitely has a easier time killing.....outside of Limit Cross Slash, which is pretty much the best kill move in the game and mostly invalidates Ike's one big advantage over Cloud.

That's not just an Ike thing, though. A lot of other characters would appreciate it greatly if Limit Cross Slash was toned down.
 

TheGoodGuava

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Rosa definitely doesn't lack bad MUs. MK is still horrible for her as evidenced by Dabuz vs Aba recently, and Cloud is bad as well.

I'd argue Cloud, Diddy and possibly Bayo are the only characters with no -1 MUs. Potentially Sheik as well, but I think she loses to Bayo and there are a number of Brawler-types who do really well against her now.

Come to think of it, who does Sonic lose to? Most of the likely candidates have been nerfed. Cloud, maybe? Fox?
I honestly don't know enough about Sonic to give my opinion on it, there are literally NO Sonics that I play against other than the cancerous FG Sonics who spin2win. I do know that he has relatively bad range so he can probably be outspaced by swordies.
Bayo I would still argue has a lot of matchups that she can lose easily, Greninja in particular is terrible for her because of SSHC. Shes also been shown to not do particularly well against TL. In my experience Cloud is pretty bad for her IF he's playing lame. He can wall her out extremely well. There's also Ryu but that matchup is a bit odd, two characters that play different than most of the cast is odd
 

sedrf

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When looking at feeds people on twitter I found this harsh quote.
The Smash community's inability to handle Bayonetta shows why they suck at real fighters; they can't handle being comboed.
While the quote might be fallitcal/have holes I notice the last part as potentially intersting. Is it possible that we're going about the bayo issue wrong and should be applying mvc/anime fighting game logic. Anyway, good **** to beefy helping the community calm down in this rather stupid controversy.
 

HeavyLobster

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I feel like if they nerfed Limit Cross Slash (and maybe Cloud's fsmash), then Ike would have a very real niche over Cloud as being the heavyweight sword option. Cloud has a projectile, is faster, has better frame data, but Ike definitely has a easier time killing.....outside of Limit Cross Slash, which is pretty much the best kill move in the game and mostly invalidates Ike's one big advantage over Cloud.

That's not just an Ike thing, though. A lot of other characters would appreciate it greatly if Limit Cross Slash was toned down.
Also it would make Cloud more interesting to play were his other Limit options not completely overshadowed by it. Not only would it be good for balance, but it would force Cloud players to use more of their movesets like postpatch Diddy and Sheik. It's pretty clearly the second-most deserving move of a nerf behind Divekick.
 
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Hey guys, I was reading a couple of pages back and I saw a couple of posts saying things along the lines of "Bayonetta is cheap, she needs to be nerfed, she's bad for the community, etc." I joined smashboards a little over a year ago, and one of the first things I read on here was @T0MMY 's "Competitive Philosophy for Super Smash Bros.", and in it he quotes David Sirlin saying "playing to win is the most important and most misunderstood concept in all of competitive games." Upon @T0MMY's explanation on David's meaning, he states
"
The reasoning for misunderstanding "winning" is due to mental/psychological obstructions some people may create when competing. In the chapter "Introducing the Scrub" he compiles this concept of a competitively-handicapped player as the label "scrub".

"The "scrub" will try to make others sick with the same mental handicaps that infects them.

Sound strange?
Well, maybe you have heard some stories or have witnessed the manifestation yourself when a scrub will demand that the opponent(s) stop using some kind of strategy, demand a move/attack not be "spammed", demand a tactic be "banned", or more generic demands to stop the opponent from being "cheap" (or similar slang).

All of these demands, complaints, and similar actions are outwardly projected mental diseases that affect the scrub in question.
They are attempts to win without the game's mechanics - these "scrub tactics" are utilizing out-of-game attacks upon their opponent and can be used on a personal level or on a grand level that attacks the entire community and "bans" things that are "cheap" for all competitors in a dictatorship type of tyrannical fashion."

It's crazy how accurate this has described some (but not all) past discussions here, especially since competitive is coincidentally in the thread's title. Hopefully those words can incite more meaningful discussions on subjects like Bayonetta, rather than somebody stating their rigid opinions as the truth.

Also "Anyone making claim that something must be banned, limited, changed, or "fixed" has the burden of proof on them/their claim. There is no reason why anyone needs to defend why something should not be banned. Keep that in mind."

Link to the "guide": http://smashboards.com/guides/competitive-philosophy-for-super-smash-bros.91/
 
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LancerStaff

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Of all the things to complain about... Can we go back to whining about non-Limit Blade Beam, please?

Comparing a f1 AD to a f2 AD sounds like a gigantic difference, but in practice that single frame means almost nothing since it basically impossible to react to anything anyway. The only thing lower start-up ADs are really good for is is when they're buffered out of something. Bayo can't SHAD effectively because of the endlag, so that's out. Out of hitstun? Let's be honest here, how many times do you think you've hit somebody out of the first frame of an AD? Unless you have a particular 0% "combo" that does just that it's probably not much. (The only "combo" like that I can think of is on Pit, though f3 ADs ruin it.)

Honestly, the f1 spotdodge is more troublesome.
 

Luco

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What's interesting to me is that people complain about Bayo making the game so much more defensive and slow, and yet funnily enough the most amount of hate is given to the one character who has such incredible punish and combo-ability you'd think you were watching Melee.

I think the concepts are probably slightly different - immense punish power and combo-ability doesn't automatically translate to aggressive or 'spectator sport' (a term used back in the days when people were arguing rampantly about Luigi killing the game in pretty much the exact same way btw), but it's actually kind of similar to Brawl which was both defensive and often had very, very punishing CGs or other exploits.

I really loved and still love Brawl. Like literally aside from tripping I was even able to tolerate its blatant unbalance. Characters felt so mobile and overpowered anyway that you could still have fun even whilst losing really badly (or maybe not, it's hard to say what Brawl's power balance really was in contrast to itself). That being said I do remember a particularly funny moment in one of Brawl's internationals where M2K's :metaknight: was playing 9B's :popo: and it was the final game on a visually modded battlefield and M2K was on his last stock with 9B on 2 stocks. I remember 9B got a grab on M2K and started the CG and obviously it was going to be a kill, but VGC had edited it before putting it up on youtube so that as they did the CG the sound started changing rapidly to static and back, and the video went into black and white as M2K got CGed to death in order to create hype around something that a lot of people wouldn't have considered hype. It's kind of funny looking back on it.


... Ah, found it. It was actually on FD. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UvwNyWNCKc&t=9m15s

Anyway. Bayo is her own set of 'do or DI' interactions. Though LancerStaff LancerStaff it's relevant to mention there are combos that work by virtue of a single frame that aren't actually hard to pull off because of buffering that get screwed due to the difference. It may not be ridiculously huge in terms of average interactions but it does legitimately make the difference in some situations, possibly more than people realise. I'm pretty sure for instance that Ness abuses this 1f window because I know Jiggs can rest Ness trying to Dthrow Fair but can't do anything else. Or maybe I'm mixing up the histun values and how people can act out of stuff. I know you mentioned it already, I just think there are a few more combos that are decided by that 1 frame than you might think. Or maybe I'm wrong. Iono.

Anyway.
 
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Nidtendofreak

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Hey guys, I was reading a couple of pages back and I saw a couple of posts saying things along the lines of "Bayonetta is cheap, she needs to be nerfed, she's bad for the community, etc." I joined smashboards a little over a year ago, and one of the first things I read on here was @T0MMY 's "Competitive Philosophy for Super Smash Bros.", and in it he quotes David Sirlin saying "playing to win is the most important and most misunderstood concept in all of competitive games." Upon @T0MMY's explanation on David's meaning, he states
"
The reasoning for misunderstanding "winning" is due to mental/psychological obstructions some people may create when competing. In the chapter "Introducing the Scrub" he compiles this concept of a competitively-handicapped player as the label "scrub".

"The "scrub" will try to make others sick with the same mental handicaps that infects them.

Sound strange?
Well, maybe you have heard some stories or have witnessed the manifestation yourself when a scrub will demand that the opponent(s) stop using some kind of strategy, demand a move/attack not be "spammed", demand a tactic be "banned", or more generic demands to stop the opponent from being "cheap" (or similar slang).

All of these demands, complaints, and similar actions are outwardly projected mental diseases that affect the scrub in question.
They are attempts to win without the game's mechanics - these "scrub tactics" are utilizing out-of-game attacks upon their opponent and can be used on a personal level or on a grand level that attacks the entire community and "bans" things that are "cheap" for all competitors in a dictatorship type of tyrannical fashion."

It's crazy how accurate this has described some (but not all) past discussions here, especially since competitive is coincidentally in the thread's title. Hopefully those words can incite more meaningful discussions on subjects like Bayonetta, rather than somebody stating their rigid opinions as the truth.

Also "Anyone making claim that something must be banned, limited, changed, or "fixed" has the burden of proof on them/their claim. There is no reason why anyone needs to defend why something should not be banned. Keep that in mind."

Link to the "guide": http://smashboards.com/guides/competitive-philosophy-for-super-smash-bros.91/
Ugh we really are going back to the Brawl days of MK Ban arguments.

Help, I'm getting flashbacks to Sirlin based arguments.
 

Trifroze

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I saw your quote lol, at that point you're making multiple mistakes and getting punished hard isn't out of line in that scenario.
Or are we gonna start rioting over Fox or Cloud getting 50% strings because they read your air-dodge once or twice?
No because they aren't actual 50:50s and the damage is closer to 30-40%. Even characters like ZSS and Mario who can inflict guaranteed 40% require platforms and a very specific percent range to do that and thus it's very situational, and even then the damage is much less than what Bayonetta can do given a similarly favorable situation (if the opponent doesn't outright die).

And you can't oppress MK for free in disadvantage because of multiple jumps and dimensional cape, you can't oppress villager in disadvantage for free because dair.
Literally every good character has options to punish your options even when they're in disadvantage, the cards are just in the grounded player's favour and that's no different with bayonetta.
Talk about full defense mode; you're seriously(?) comparing MK jumping out of the way and remaining in disadvantage or Villager hitting you with only a moderately strong and moderately fast single attack to your advantage being turned into a lost stock or massive damage because you hit a button at the wrong time. "So don't do it" is exactly the problem, Bayonetta demands free respect in disadvantage but never has to give it back because no other character demands it in nearly the same way.

Your character is clearly overtuned in many aspects, and to me it seems like you've heard people bring it up to the point that you feel the need to play down her strengths and exaggerate other characters' strengths to somehow balance this out. I don't like to pretend to read people's minds, just I always thought of your posts were reasonable but can't see any of that here.

If players aren't taking the time to learn how to play the game, then yes they're going to lose because they're getting outskilled by their opponent.
You're literally justifying people's complaints that when another player puts more time into the game, that player shouldn't beat them.
As I said, Bayonetta's combos are easier to learn than the counterplay against it and it's showing in tournaments around the world. Not only are you claiming the opposite, but you're somehow ᴛᴡɪsᴛɪɴɢ it into me saying the more skilled player shouldn't win. I said nothing like that at all, and I'm going to stop talking about this if we really can't have an honest conversation.
 
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TheGoodGuava

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What's interesting to me is that people complain about Bayo making the game so much more defensive and slow, and yet funnily enough the most amount of hate is given to the one character who has such incredible punish and combo-ability you'd think you were watching Melee.

I think the concepts are probably slightly different - immense punish power and combo-ability doesn't automatically translate to aggressive or 'spectator sport' (a term used back in the days when people were arguing rampantly about Luigi killing the game in pretty much the exact same way btw), but it's actually kind of similar to Brawl which was both defensive and often had very, very punishing CGs or other exploits.

I really loved and still love Brawl. Like literally aside from tripping I was even able to tolerate its blatant unbalance. Characters felt so mobile and overpowered anyway that you could still have fun even whilst losing really badly (or maybe not, it's hard to say what Brawl's power balance really was in contrast to itself). That being said I do remember a particularly funny moment in one of Brawl's internationals where M2K's :metaknight: was playing 9B's :popo: and it was the final game on a visually modded battlefield and M2K was on his last stock with 9B on 2 stocks. I remember 9B got a grab on M2K and started the CG and obviously it was going to be a kill, but VGC had edited it before putting it up on youtube so that as they did the CG the sound started changing rapidly to static and back, and the video went into black and white as M2K got CGed to death in order to create hype around something that a lot of people wouldn't have considered hype. It's kind of funny looking back on it.


... Ah, found it. It was actually on FD. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UvwNyWNCKc&t=9m15s

Anyway. Bayo is her own set of 'do or DI' interactions. Though LancerStaff LancerStaff it's relevant to mention there are combos that work by virtue of a single frame that aren't actually hard to pull off because of buffering that get screwed due to the difference. It may not be ridiculously huge in terms of average interactions but it does legitimately make the difference in some situations, possibly more than people realise. I'm pretty sure for instance that Ness abuses this 1f window because I know Jiggs can rest Ness trying to Dthrow Fair but can't do anything else. Or maybe I'm mixing up the histun values and how people can act out of stuff. I know you mentioned it already, I just think there are a few more combos that are decided by that 1 frame than you might think. Or maybe I'm wrong. Iono.

Anyway.
I don't think I'm watching Melee when I see Bayo, I see side b -> up b -> any aerial on repeat for 4 minutes. I never see the character do ANYTHING that isn't just a shuffle of the same two special moves and players trying to evade her in every situation because they don't want to die off the top at like 40 because they jabbed a Witch Time.
 

Pancracio17

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bayonetta is super overtuned, the only thing she isnt best at is neutral and even then she is above average, dont try to deny that, however she isnt a tier above anyone in the cast, hell, prepatch characters where much worse. banning her is stupid.
 

Scrubtorights

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....I was going to ask what anyone thinks of the usefulness of crouch canceling but let me change it up a little. How useless is cc in a competitive setting? Is it at least worth labbing out.
 

Pancracio17

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you get a bit less knockback, thats it. I think its pretty useless but there are probably some super specific situations were its usefull.

Edit: i THINK it affects Mks dash attack so that followups are harder and bayo side b if you CC the first one the second one doesnt hit.
 
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Luco

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I don't think I'm watching Melee when I see Bayo, I see side b -> up b -> any aerial on repeat for 4 minutes. I never see the character do ANYTHING that isn't just a shuffle of the same two special moves and players trying to evade her in every situation because they don't want to die off the top at like 40 because they jabbed a Witch Time.
It would probably be pretentious of me to try and refute you properly because I'm not really into Melee myself, but to me I see Marth doing reverse Utilt strings in Melee or Fox Utilt strings and I think "it's not really about the fact that the combo is interactive, it's just not that amazing to watch someone get bodied in a bunch of different ways."

I dunno, I might be pretty weird, but for me the most hype comes out of watching a whole heap of interactions, and the most amazing moments are when those interactions lead to high percents last stock where the final interaction, the final hit is what counts. Melee is a game where your stock can be ended by an incorrect read at 0%, whereas smash 4 you're far more likely to see this scenario occur. Except for Bayonetta, where I once had my tournament life ended whilst me and my opponent were at last stock last game in losers finals both at 60% and one correct read gave him the 0-death. Which, by the way, I'm actually not mad about (it was really well played by him actually, and this was early in Bayo's lifespan). I just think that although the combos are perhaps less interactive the fundamentals of seeing a (hopefully) sick read ---> heaps of damage conversion is more similar to Melee and that is something Bayo appears to exemplify.

BUUUUT I'mma stop here because I probably don't know what I'm talking about. Lol.
 

DunnoBro

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This week's Nebulous finals is Marth (Mr. E) vs. Duck Hunt ( DunnoBro DunnoBro ).

Talk about something we probably would have never seen five months ago.

http://www.hitbox.tv/nebulousgaming
And that's all because they "decreased the power level."

I wish they kept Sheik's 50/50 so the game could be more interesting....
Idk about Marth but Sheik absolutely did not hold DHD back. Before Mr. R I'd never lost to one she was actually his best top tier MU before cloud imo.

If DHD is more viable now it's because swordies are more viable and he destroys swordies (until they start realizing how free you are offstage anyway. I have PTSD after Mr. E's edgeguards)
 
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nannerham

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Wait, there is crouch cancelling in Smash 4?
yes but its nowhere near as good as it was in melee, in smash 4 crouch canceling will have you receive about 14% less knock-back than you normally would've, while its not much it be enough to can throw off your opponent's trajectories to start combos or help you survive an attack you otherwise would've lost a stock to, while it's certainly varies in degrees on how effective it is I find crouch canceling a little underused imo.
 
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Megamang

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You also have to be in the crouching animation in smash 4 (I believe).

This is less useful than melee, where you could CC while you were doing anything. You could tell if someone was aware of AT's based on how your combo game at low % went against them, and against less aware players the lack of CC should have been enough to body them.


In smash 4, the coolest usefulness for CC I've heard was messing up MK's specific death conversions.

No, this won't work on Bayonetta.
 

DanGR

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As always Mega Smash Mondays brings some high level and entertaining gameplay.

Quick Summary

WSF: K9 3-0 Angbad, ConCon 3-0 Xzax
WF: K9 3-1 ConCon
LSF: Xzax 3-1 Angbad
LF: Xzax 3-2 ConCon
GF: Xzax 3-0 K9
GF2: Xzax 3-1 K9

http://challonge.com/msm45singles
*Looks at the bracket*
"Roy_R"
"DSF"
I haven't seen those names in a while...
Anyone know if either of them are playing seriously and/or what characters they use? Just curious.

---

As Fox players optimize his juggle traps, he just gets scarier and scarier. I have to admit I'm a bit ignorant of the SoCal scene in general, but I'm not surprised to see Xzax take this one.
 
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LancerStaff

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Though LancerStaff LancerStaff it's relevant to mention there are combos that work by virtue of a single frame that aren't actually hard to pull off because of buffering that get screwed due to the difference. It may not be ridiculously huge in terms of average interactions but it does legitimately make the difference in some situations, possibly more than people realise. I'm pretty sure for instance that Ness abuses this 1f window because I know Jiggs can rest Ness trying to Dthrow Fair but can't do anything else. Or maybe I'm mixing up the histun values and how people can act out of stuff. I know you mentioned it already, I just think there are a few more combos that are decided by that 1 frame than you might think. Or maybe I'm wrong. Iono.
Puff's AD is f4, rest is f1. Comparing Bayo's AD to a bottom tier AD makes a difference, yeah. Next to a top tier one? Basically impossible to see or feel a difference. The window for it to make a difference would be ridiculously small... On X combo, you would need precisely Y frames of hitstun to hit the first frame of an AD with the second attack. Any more hitstun and it'll be a true combo, any less and it'd whiff against a f2 AD. What are the chances you'll use X combo when hitting her would put her in exactly Y frames of hitstun? Slim.
 
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You also have to be in the crouching animation in smash 4 (I believe).

This is less useful than melee, where you could CC while you were doing anything. You could tell if someone was aware of AT's based on how your combo game at low % went against them, and against less aware players the lack of CC should have been enough to body them.


In smash 4, the coolest usefulness for CC I've heard was messing up MK's specific death conversions.

No, this won't work on Bayonetta.
You have to be crouching to initiate a crouch cancel, hence the name. If your character isn't in crouch, you're just inputting your DI down.
 

DanGR

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Rosa gets a ton out of crouching in neutral against Bayonetta. Not only does her crawl let her space effectively against short hop aerial pressure (in the same way it helps her against ZSS), but it lets her CC sneaky ABDKs as well.

Surely it's helpful for some other characters too.
 
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Ghostbone

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I said nothing like that at all, and I'm going to stop talking about this if we really can't have an honest conversation.
You're the one completing exaggerating her strengths and claiming she's imbalanced based on traits every top tier has, and you call me the dishonest one >.>

You clearly have a different definition of skill if people who don't bother to learn how to fight the character their opponent uses can still be considered more skilled than them when they lose, and one that somehow excludes studying the game.

We're just going back and forth saying the same things at each other, so I cbf responding to the rest of the post.
 
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Dre89

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I saw your quote lol, at that point you're making multiple mistakes and getting punished hard isn't out of line in that scenario.
Or are we gonna start rioting over Fox or Cloud getting 50% strings because they read your air-dodge once or twice?

If players aren't taking the time to learn how to play the game, then yes they're going to lose because they're getting outskilled by their opponent.
You're literally justifying people's complaints that when another player puts more time into the game, that player shouldn't beat them.



And you can't oppress MK for free in disadvantage because of multiple jumps and dimensional cape, you can't oppress villager in disadvantage for free because dair.
Literally every good character has options to punish your options even when they're in disadvantage, the cards are just in the grounded player's favour and that's no different with bayonetta.

A laggy air-dodge is really bad because you have to air-dodge much higher from the ground to avoid landing lag, she also can't use air-dodge > fast aerial mixups because her air-dodge is so laggy.
Overall it's dishonest to claim her air-dodge is at all a problem with the character, in many more circumstances than not it's much worse than a regular frame 2 or 3 air-dodge.
Those characters don't threaten 50% combos from half a stage away with just one option that's safe on shield. They have to commit a lot harder and mix up their options more to get a similar reward to what Bayo can get with just one safe button.

She's not the only character with a one-button disadvantage state. But unlike those characters, that tool is also the vast majority of her neutral and advantage too.

She just doesn't just have the best risk-reward in the game. It's also that her meta is 2-3 buttons, which almost no need for mixing up which options you use.

Her kit is conducive to not needing to be the better player to win. You don't really need fundamentals. I've already seen matches where the Bayo has taken 80% without barely laying a finger on the opponent then gets one ladder and takes the stock.
 
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