Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Otterz]

ZSS' Flip Kick can cover the ledge and spike Cloud since he doesn't snap (Non-Limit) almost guaranteed. This really effects the MU imo.

 

[zeldasmash]

I imagine the BlazBlue community wasn't very happy about Kokonoe when she was new. I know I wasn't.

Yeah, Kokonoe CP 1.0 was nightmare inducing. There wasn't a single character she didn't beat solidly due to how overpowered she was.....

What do you guys think about Link vs Bayo? While Link doesn't win, he has the range and disjoints, has the grab game and has a combo breaker with Bomb due to how fast it explodes. Bomb in general is something Bayo has to be wary of since it can lead to Fair or Dash Attack which can kill at around 70-90% with rage (i think Dash Attack kills at that percentage without rage).

 

[Greward]

I'm legitimately curious - is the Smash scene the only one in the FGC that's turned the mere act of good character DLC into a negative?

I don't think I ever heard this much complaining about "5.99" during, say, BlazBlue's tenure. It feels like it's only a bad thing now that it turns out the characters outshine the irrelevant ones.

I don't think it's that new.
If you want old examples, there's marvel vs capcom 1 or SSF2 Turbo where the secret characters unlockable by a code (the old dlc ways) were some completely overpowered characters like Akuma, who was banned.

Overpowered DLC characters are usually banned as far as I know. Making a DLC too strong obviously increases sales for that one character, so it's a good reason for a company to release one.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I think Cloud's recovery is only free for anyone with good range (or projectiles), especially offstage. Semi-Spikes do wonders against Cloud as well.

I would say that even then he isn't free, considering the lack of Cloud deaths that we've been seeing. They're certainly options no doubt, but I wouldn't call them guaranteed. Cloud can recovery high, stall, use his aerials or his projectile to prevent himself from getting edge guarded as often. He's not 100% going to die to most characters, even if they have some of these traits.

 

[Goesasu]

If Shulk's range allows him to win matchups, what matchups does he lose?

Shulk losses any matchup where the opponent can break his spacing frequently via mobility: sheik and fox are clear examples of this.

Shulk also looses when the opponent has the ability to keep shulk further away than midrange via projectiles. This one is more tricky because shulk can bypass this with speed or jump monado or just powershielding and attacking from midrange as always. Despite this shulk loose to campy megaman and struggles against rob but this one is very duable just by playing right. Duck hunt should also be a loosing matchup for shulk at least in theory.

Shulk weakness is not his frame data, is his below average close combat options, if his spacing gets broken easily then he is going to loose hard, but this is not an easy task.

 

[S_B]

is a huge pain in the *** for the new . now that she likely isnt killing before 180%~, he has plenty of time to get rage for spin dash ko confirms around 120%~, and random fsmash at the ledge could probably kill at 60%, also he has stock cap kill throws that will likely kill at around 140%~ considering her light weight and how much rage he'll be getting. the nerfed fair hitbox means that bair will eat it up so she has to be REALLY careful about when she throws out moves because bair eats ALL of them up(all of her moves except bair, nair, usmash, second hit fsmash, second hit utilt, dair, and second hit dsmash dont have an individual hitbox that does more than 5%, the damage that needs to be done to not get 9%ed by bair)

overall it was likely even before patch(bair still ate up a large majority of her moveset) but now it's clearly favor.

I think the nerf bell may yet toll for that hedgehog (yes, again).

Not that I think it's truly deserved or anything, but you have to remember that Sonic is considered S-tier in Japan (along with Sheik, ZSS, and Rosa), and they just whacked two of the S-tiers in this patch.

I frankly have no idea what of Sonic's I would even tone down. If they reduce the KB on his moves, he'll quickly become crap in casual play because they're not even THAT strong as it is...

 

[Nobie]

Re: Shulk vs Cloud

I'm curious about the dynamics of Limit vs Monado, both before and after Limit is fully charged. Is it that easy to limit camp a character who can choose to outrun you while also wielding an equally large sword? Is Jump decent for straight up avoiding even limit boosted up air juggles? If Shulk is in Shield Monado, what is Cloud's game plan other than "wait it out?"

 

[Greward]

I frankly have no idea what of Sonic's I would even tone down. If they reduce the KB on his moves, he'll quickly become crap in casual play because they're not even THAT strong as it is...

Sonic's fsmash in casual play is as strong as it can get, I don't think they can hurt him too badly in casual play to really bother about it.
Sonic is kinda fine atm, I don't think he's deserving nerfs specially since he has very poor results since Komokiri dropped him for the dlcgods.

 

[S_B]

Sonic's fsmash in casual play is as strong as it can get, I don't think they can hurt him too badly in casual play to really bother about it.
Sonic is kinda fine atm, I don't think he's deserving nerfs specially since he has very poor results since Komokiri dropped him for the dlcgods.

I know Sanic is kinda a PITA for a lot of lower tiers so that could justify the nerf, though I'm not sure what I'd tweak.

I guess Sonic is supposed to be a hit-and-run style character more than anything, and you couldn't really take away any of his speed without it betraying the character somewhat.

So maybe reducing knockback on F-smash would be a start, but without it, I'm not sure how casual players would be able to do anything with Sonic...

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Greward

Old characters in ST like Sagat and Claw were softbanned, meaning they were frowned upon but not explicitly barred from play.

Smooth Criminal

 

[thehard]

Komo didn't drop Sonic.

I doubt he'll see any more changes, nothing he has stands out as abusive - his Japanese S-tier status does not mean he's on the chopping block.

 

[ARGHETH]

Shulk losses any matchup where the opponent can break his spacing frequently via mobility: sheik and fox are clear examples of this.

Cloud barely runs slower than Sheik and ties her in air speed, though.

 

[C0rvus]

Now we want to nerf Sonic? Pls stahp.

I can't really see Shulk beating his better half. Cloud's just so much more consistent and he outclasses Shulk in a number of meaningful ways, namely frame data and speed.

 

[Shaya]

I've been sick for the past week or so and I haven't really trusted my judgement, nor been able or willing to guide myself through the massively perverse amounts of crap that have been living in this thread since the patch dropped.

I think I'll start with:
If you're going to post low-level observations, you should expect an infraction~

If you don't think your post is a low level observation, then you should at least be able to back it up with game play proof at some relevant level (i.e. any competent offline tournament play, doesn't have to be Nairo).
It sucks that nearly 100% of our game play footage comes from streams which are hard to navigate and disappear within a few weeks.
But if such game play footage is important to you, you should consider harassing streamers about it~

 

[Trifroze]

ZSS can chase Cloud deep offstage and try to read a high recovery with fair or bair to make him lose his jump and die, and even if the read goes wrong, she can fade back to the ledge and attempt to flip kick Cloud's up b more easily than most others since it doesn't autosnap. Additionally if Cloud has to recover from really far away to the point where up b barely reaches to the ledge, it won't be able to hit above the stage meaning it's a free down smash kill for ZSS that should literally never miss in that scenario. All of this is considered without limit though. On the other hand, I don't see how ZSS should pretty much ever die to Cloud's limit specials offstage aside from some really hard reads on the Cloud player's part that they frankly shouldn't waste their limit on.

As far as the rest of the matchup goes, jab and zair are just as good in neutral versus Cloud as they are against anyone else, though at midrange ZSS has to be careful since Cloud's dtilt can low profile under her spacing, although it's punishable if shielded. Cloud can make ZSS hesitate on uair juggles with his dair but can't spam it or he'll get back aired from the side, pivot grabbed upon landing or power shielded into up b or utilt OoS, and usmash beats Cloud's landing options if ZSS just wants to go for consistency over reward. Flip jump escapes Cloud's pseudo combos and the ZSS player should resort to it pretty much every time Cloud lands a dtilt, utilt or uair.

Yet Cloud has limit which gives some incentive for ZSS to approach, and while zair is enough to tease Cloud out of it pretty well, actual approaching is something ZSS isn't nearly as good at as stuffing out and punishing approaches by the opponent. With limit on Cloud's recovery is very tough to gimp (although ZSS can still force him to waste his limit pretty easily), and ZSS will die to LCS between 70-80% in most cases. Every character dislikes limit though, and it should be about time to make a big deal about how this attack is punishable by frolling the third hit and how Cloud becomes combo fodder with limit fully charged. All in all ZSS probably doesn't at least lose to him, although if she does, it's likely that almost everyone else does too.

 

[BananaBake]

I've been sick for the past week or so and I haven't really trusted my judgement, nor been able or willing to guide myself through the massively perverse amounts of crap that have been living in this thread since the patch dropped.

I think I'll start with:
If you're going to post low-level observations, you should expect an infraction~

If you don't think your post is a low level observation, then you should at least be able to back it up with game play proof at some relevant level (i.e. any competent offline tournament play, doesn't have to be Nairo).
It sucks that nearly 100% of our game play footage comes from streams which are hard to navigate and disappear within a few weeks.
But if such game play footage is important to you, you should consider harassing streamers about it~

Depending on the channel, you can find replays on Youtube. I know MVG is really good about that.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

On Shulk vs Cloud.

Y2Kay Emblem Lord initially said Shulk might win, then retracted his statement saying he believed it to be more even.

I do not think Shulk is Cloud worst matchup (or an advantageous one for Shulk), but Shulk does have several ways to annoy Cloud.

On Shulk's Side

Shulk's Utilt discourages Cloud's use of full hop dair from the ledge, to approach, to land, etc.

Camping for limit also allows Shulk to camp for Shield Monado. Alternatively, Cloud can be chased down with speed or jump art.

While it's unlikely to be that important, it is notable that Shield Shulk doesn't die to finishing touch until a tad over 120%. Shield Monado can be turned on as a response to limit, and if truly needed I think Shulk has a chance at waiting for Shield to return by running away with Jump and Speed. I say chance because Limit Cloud is rather hard to run away from, even accounting for the Monado arts.

Shulk's nair/bair eats through blade beam and keeps going, and nair clanks with Cloud dtilt (though I feel like I see Cloud's dtilt almost never these days).

Shulk can Fsmash high Climhazzard recoveries.

On Cloud's Side

Shulk still does not have any way to get away from Cloud's uair juggling - Shulk's dair has far too much start up (Frame 14 for initial hit, frame 23 for long range hit) and far too few active frames (2 frames on the long range beam) to be useful against it unfortunately. Cloud's Uair to Uair also often happens fast enough that youll have eaten all the damage before you're able to get the Shield art up.

@Solfiner Cloud's nair hits in front of him around frame 10. Shulk's nair hits in front of him around frame 18. Cloud will finish his nair before Shulk's gets in front of him.

I still think Cloud wins on the ground, just because he has utilt/ftilt/anything that's faster than the frame 12 ftilt Shulk wants to put out. The best thing for Shulk might be to go for a grab then fight Cloud air to air or air to ground.

I still think it's not a matchup Cloud really has to worry about, he just has some options (Limit Camping/Dair/Climhazzard falling to ledge/Limit kills) taken away at times. Like Villager pocketing Diddy's banana or Rob's Gyro to a lesser extent.


On the note of random Shulk things - the Monado art selection isn't slowed down by Bayonetta's witch time. So if she tries to throw-> dsmash or do anything other than a single hit, Shulk can change to shield art before the hit connects.

 

[Goesasu]

Cloud barely runs slower than Sheik and ties her in air speed, though.

Sheik has like no endlag on her moves, she can throw hitboxes all over the place and not being punished. Cloud, despite popular opinion, cannot do that. -inb4autocancel- still not the same. Cloud has endlag on his moves and thats the difference between him and sheik in this matchup.

Limit vs monado is very interesting, cloud cannot limit camp shulk and the monado is longer than the buster sword. Cloud faster startup means nothing if he cant get it in, because midrange is also clouds favorite spot (actually second favorite because never ending up air is a thing) but he gets beaten in that regard.

IMO shulks forces cloud to abandon his usual gameplay because is not longer effective, shulk range trumps it.

-Clouds neutral and forward air gets beaten by shulks neutral and forward air ditto.
-Clouds down air is food for shulks up tilt.
-Cloud back air gets beaten by shulks everything except jab.
-Clouds downtilt its beaten by shulk downtilt.
-Clouds ftilt gets beaten by shulks ftilt.

If Cloud wants to win he is gonna have to use his other tools and take advantage of shulks weaknesses, he has to get in and abuse jab, down tilt and up air juggling.

Its not only theory, shulk has natural advantage over his fellow swordsman friends but also he has more pronounced weaknesses against the likes of sheik and fox.

 

[ARGHETH]

-Clouds neutral and forward air gets beaten by shulks neutral and forward air ditto.
-Cloud back air gets beaten by shulks everything except jab.
-Clouds downtilt its beaten by shulk downtilt.
-Clouds ftilt gets beaten by shulks ftilt.

All of this really assumes that Cloud's just throwing out moves.
Cloud's Bair is also F11 with only 29 frames of endlag. It's beaten if it's predicted, but...
Do Clouds use Dtilt that much? I haven't really noticed it being used that often.
Considering Cloud's is 3 frames faster, I really don't think it's that clear.
Relevant:

Cloud's nair hits in front of him around frame 10. Shulk's nair hits in front of him around frame 18. Cloud will finish his nair before Shulk's gets in front of him.

Its not only theory, shulk has natural advantage over his fellow swordsman friends but also he has more pronounced weaknesses against the likes of sheik and fox.

When you say something is "not only theory" you generally have something to back it up...

 

[Smog Frog]

https://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming

VoiD's here. lets see what he can do with the new (and if he found that new kill setup or whatever he kept yapping about)

 

[Macchiato]

Let's talk about how a Purple Zelda AKA Ed got 9th at a huge regional using solo-Zelda. He beat Ryo the ike as well.

 

[Shaya]

How about providing a stream link and time stamp or if not-existing pointing that out (and perhaps referencing secondary sources about how the set went if so) so we don't just have "oh mah gawd, I can totally see zelda doing okay in the ike match up because -nothing truly relevant-".

Ed's a very strong Floridian player and one of the best Zeldas. He's probably beaten Ryo's Ike before, at least in Brawl

It's nice to see rekindled hopes in Zelda (and probably Samus) since the patch though.

 

[Smog Frog]

that tournament also has rich brown participating. and according to the bracket(http://challonge.com/msm42singles) there was some guy named mago that took part(he got sent to losers round 2). is this THE mago from street fighter or is it he completely unrelated?

 

[sedrf]

It's some other guy

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I find it funny how Cloud is netting almost as much hate as Bayonetta.

In my eyes Cloud really isn't a problem to this game or the meta. If anything, he helps it. Cloud simply possesses a strength that people aren't used to playing against: range. Yeah Ike and Pit and all those characters exist, but they can't utilize the range the way whether it be due to mobility, longer animations, or whatever else it may be. That's what's holding them back from being top tier characters. Cloud has mobility, combos, strength, range, kill power, and everything else top tier characters have. And while he is a good character, he still has weaknesses. He isn't so fast to the point where he can break out of combos, or overwhelm his opponent, and he won't auto combo you to death unless you allow him to. On top of that, he's one of the few characters in this game who actually have problems getting back to the stage. He is an amazing character, but he isn't overpowering, has obvious weaknesses and you have to understand several concepts of the game to be good with him.

Bayonetta on the other hand can really be seen as a problem. She's the definition of low risk/high reward. You can't play against Bayo like you can play against the rest of the cast. She has great frame data, an unusual amount of kill options, the best counter in the game, a recovery which is extremely hard to edge-guard, the best combo game of any character, and a great neutral. She has no blaring weaknesses. Sheik has trouble KOing, ZSS's recovery is very predictable/punishable and her game plan can be significantly damaged by perfect shields, Rosa is super light and Luma can be separated from her, Cloud has a bad recovery, Ryu has poor mobility, Mario doesn't have many kill options and no kill confirms...every character except for Bayo has something that can be used against them in one way or another.

And the other thing is, it's not just no names who are complaining about this character. Several pros have voiced their opinions against the character. She has split the community in half. I don't like negative the community has grown since her inclusion. Regardless of what happens, I just hope the community can get to the point where we figure something out.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So basically...

git gud?

Also people need to start abusing how her recovery time stacks with more aerial actions

 

[Nidtendofreak]

How about providing a stream link and time stamp or if not-existing pointing that out (and perhaps referencing secondary sources about how the set went if so) so we don't just have "oh mah gawd, I can totally see zelda doing okay in the ike match up because -nothing truly relevant-".

Ed's a very strong Floridian player and one of the best Zeldas. He's probably beaten Ryo's Ike before, at least in Brawl

It's nice to see rekindled hopes in Zelda (and probably Samus) since the patch though.

Just going to tack onto this:

Zelda vs Ike I think was generally considered around the 45-55 range, maybe barely scraping into 40-60 range before the patch. Zelda hates Ike's kill power + disjointedness and its ultimately her downfall, but her gameplan actually half works at times against Ike. He doesn't exactly have a "mash to beat out incoming dangerous move" button like say Mario does.

 

[Smog Frog]

is fair the best overall aerial in the game? does any other aerial have its generous combination of speed, power, range, and safety? i'm really feelin that this fair is the best in the game.

 

[Shaya]

is fair the best overall aerial in the game? does any other aerial have its generous combination of speed, power, range, and safety? i'm really feelin that this fair is the best in the game.

I at least, kind of agree.
Sheik's fair is very difficult to space with right now, does a third of the damage and is barely better at comboing than Mewtwos.
Sheik's fair is -6 on block to Mewtwo's -5 (on landing), with Sheik's auto cancel at best being -3.

Mewtwo's is pretty insane in vacuum-contrast.
Furthermore I could very well argue that Mewtwo has similar mobility (better in some ways due to that double jump), a more threatening and safer projectile (less cool down than Luigi fireballs, cannot be jumped over, 10ish frame release while in charge, can do 25% and will kill), better range on normals and in several areas the frame data differences are minimal.

Strong grab game without guaranteed follow ups that leads into a very strong advantageous position (due to mewtwo's amazing vertical and horizontal movement) and the strongest vertical killing throw in the cast by a large margin.

 

[Y2Kay]

I struggle to think of an aerial that fricking good. Comes out frame 6 like sheik's fair, it's disjointed, combos into itself, and kills people early offstage (and in general)

 

[Deleted member 269706]

So basically...

git gud?

Also people need to start abusing how her recovery time stacks with more aerial actions

See, that "git gud" mentality is just immature and annoying. It doesn't help anyone get better at the game and it makes you look childish. Pretty much what I'm feeling after reading that post... https://twitter.com/AllyOrNotAlly/status/708923836306051072

 

[Peppermint1201]

Jband is going all Meta Knight for Pound, according to his twitter.

https://twitter.com/ULTRA_Jband/status/712121645230460928

 

[C0rvus]

ConCon said in chat to watch his set with Bam. Something about new meta. Maybe we'll see something new?

Edit: ConCon won the set, but I didn't see any crazy anti-Bayo tech. He did punish a heel slide with Fire Jump Punch OoS I guess.

Edit Dos: Okay he said in chat "get the lead and run away". That's super funny because that was the strat against pre-patch Luigi. It seemed to work for him in this set.

Tyrant is still scary with new Meta Knight. Last set I saw, he got at least 2 ceiling combos. Bad DI on his opponent's part or what?

 

[BananaBake]

I struggle to think of an aerial that fricking good. Comes out frame 6 like sheik's fair, it's disjointed, combos into itself, and kills people early offstage (and in general)

What about Greninja's? That seems really fast, and has good killing power (I don't play Greninja so it was a serious question)

 

[Smog Frog]

fair is frame 16 and due to his physics it can be difficult to time it to come out as you land.

 

[Thinkaman]

His fair does more knockback than Diddy's entire moveset.

-Me on Mewtwo

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

When talking about the best aerials, there are many factors to consider. IMO, the best aireal would be a get off me option, a combo starter, and a high damaging move.
Edit 'd thanks m2 chainz for saying the same :D
Are there any characters with aerials like that?

 

[Smog Frog]

...

fair fits those descriptions. if by "get off me" you dont mean "combo breaker". the only thing this fair cant do is be a combo breaker.

 

[BananaBake]

...

fair fits those descriptions. if by "get off me" you dont mean "combo breaker". the only thing this fair cant do is be a combo breaker.

Isn't that what Nair is for?

 

[DblCrest]

@Rawkstar
I'm reminded of the 'don't get grabbed' response people use with the Ice Climber's and their chain grabs honestly.
You might as well say don't knocked off the stage...