Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[adom4]

So earlier someone said that Corrin had the best side B in the game, and I'm not inclined to disagree - it's versatile, it's ranged, it's fast as all hell, and it can kill. But then I was thinking - who else has good side B moves in this game? Bayo's heel slide is bonkers, Cloud's cross slash (in limit) is double bonkers, Sonic's spin dash is a huge part of his game plan, etc. etc.. What do you guys think are the most competitively important Side Bs in this game?

edit: haha, everyone tried to shift gears at the same time

Well wouldn't even function without his side-B.
all have great side-B's too.

 

[Dre89]

Cloud needs to be nerfed because he doesn't have the weaknesses the other swordies have. Swordies typically have their range balanced out by average mobility and frame data. MK and Roy are exceptions in that they trade range for mobility.

Cloud has massive range, but then has the mobility of a rushdown character and very good frame data for his range and power. It's like they just gave CF Ike's sword.

Ontop of that they give him a projectile and a buff mechanic that forces approaches and has no drawbacks aside from a bad recovery without it.

For people saying that the bad recovery balances this out, look at Mac. Half his moveset is useless on top of a permanently bad recovery because just having a bad recovery isn't enough to balance lack of weaknesses elsewhere.

If they gave Mac a decent air game, the bad recovery wouldn't balance him. But that's effectively what Cloud is. A character with none of the traditional weaknesses his class has, plus a buff mechanic. That's way too much for a situationally bad recovery to balance out.

 

[NotLiquid]

I'm legitimately curious - is the Smash scene the only one in the FGC that's turned the mere act of good character DLC into a negative?

I don't think I ever heard this much complaining about "5.99" during, say, BlazBlue's tenure. It feels like it's only a bad thing now that it turns out the characters outshine the irrelevant ones.

 

[Solfiner]

Every tourney after 1.1.5 these last few days has had great variety, I'm loving it.

 

[Goesasu]

I also hate how Bayonetta can cancel her taunts. Completely nullifies the risk of taunting

The worst part is that all three of them can be cancelled when in her explanation video sakurai was clear to say that only her long taunt would be cancelable. The other two also being cancelable is a mistake that lets her bypass her designed weaknesss while tauting.

 

[C0rvus]

I'm legitimately curious - is the Smash scene the only one in the FGC that's turned the mere act of good character DLC into a negative?

I don't think I ever heard this much complaining about "5.99" during, say, BlazBlue's tenure. It feels like it's only a bad thing now that it turns out the characters outshine the irrelevant ones.

I imagine the BlazBlue community wasn't very happy about Kokonoe when she was new. I know I wasn't.

 

[Peppermint1201]

So earlier someone said that Corrin had the best side B in the game, and I'm not inclined to disagree - it's versatile, it's ranged, it's fast as all hell, and it can kill. But then I was thinking - who else has good side B moves in this game? Bayo's heel slide is bonkers, Cloud's cross slash (in limit) is double bonkers, Sonic's spin dash is a huge part of his game plan, etc. etc.. What do you guys think are the most competitively important Side Bs in this game?

edit: haha, everyone tried to shift gears at the same time

It's easy to forget how amazing Ganon's side-b is. Imagine how broken an already-good character would be if their side-b was replaced with Flame Choke. I'd be tempted to say Ganon's is the best in the game or at least "up there."

 

[Thinkaman]

Who are the worst matchups for Bayonetta, Cloud, and nerfed Sheik? (And why?)

 

[Goesasu]

Who are the worst matchups for Bayonetta, Cloud, and nerfed Sheik? (And why?)

Dont know if its clouds worst matchup but Shulk beats cloud hand down thats a given. Why you ask? Range, shulk can outspace cloud easy peacy and therr is nothing cloud can do to break shulks spacing.

 

[C0rvus]

Diddy Kong has a good enough Cloud MU. His ground game is better, and he has safe confirms. With a banana in hand, he's pretty content to play defensively, but he can definitely apply pressure in his usual Diddy manner. Might be the best Cloud, might not, but its the only one I've really played at length.

 

[Y2Kay]

Who are the worst matchups for Bayonetta, Cloud, and nerfed Sheik? (And why?)

is bayonetta's worst matchup.

Shadow sneak hit stun cancel allows him to cut the damage from her ridiculous combos. Though he likes having access to his short hop game, his dash grab easily punishes any attempt to use bullet climax on stage. He also can use hydro pump to zip around her down smash at the ledge. Finally, he has a strong projectile and grab game so he can work around witch time.

It's funny how people complain about how bayo ruins the meta and is unstoppable when there exists a natural counteer to her on the roster.

 

[LeifEriksson]

I'm legitimately curious - is the Smash scene the only one in the FGC that's turned the mere act of good character DLC into a negative?

I don't think I ever heard this much complaining about "5.99" during, say, BlazBlue's tenure. It feels like it's only a bad thing now that it turns out the characters outshine the irrelevant ones.

It's because most smash players don't play other fighting games, and react differently than most members of the FGC. At least I think.

Or it could just be that Cloud and Bayo just so happen to be stupidly easy to play and do well with.

 

[Smog Frog]

is a huge pain in the ass for the new . now that she likely isnt killing before 180%~, he has plenty of time to get rage for spin dash ko confirms around 120%~, and random fsmash at the ledge could probably kill at 60%, also he has stock cap kill throws that will likely kill at around 140%~ considering her light weight and how much rage he'll be getting. the nerfed fair hitbox means that bair will eat it up so she has to be REALLY careful about when she throws out moves because bair eats ALL of them up(all of her moves except bair, nair, usmash, second hit fsmash, second hit utilt, dair, and second hit dsmash dont have an individual hitbox that does more than 5%, the damage that needs to be done to not get 9%ed by bair)

overall it was likely even before patch(bair still ate up a large majority of her moveset) but now it's clearly favor.

 

[ARGHETH]

Dont know if its clouds worst matchup but Shulk beats cloud hand down thats a given. Why you ask? Range, shulk can outspace cloud easy peacy and therr is nothing cloud can do to break shulks spacing.

...So you think Shulk beats Ike, too?
You can't just say range since there are answers to range, especially for a character like Shulk with startup/endlag problems.
It might be even, but easy for Shulk?

 

[Y2Kay]

...So you think Shulk beats Ike, too?
You can't just say range since there are answers to range, especially for a character like Shulk with startup/endlag problems.

well for what its worth @Emblem Lord thinks shulk wins too

 

[NotLiquid]

I imagine the BlazBlue community wasn't very happy about Kokonoe when she was new. I know I wasn't.

Kokonoe is actually why I ask because it's really the only other character that comes to mind which turned out to be "really good" as a piece of post-launch content.

I dunno, I'd like to assume if you're the kind of person who would actively invest in a competitive scene it wouldn't have actually mattered whether a post-release character is good or not; a professional would still most likely have a character at bay for an unpredictable pocket or even just sitting on your hard drive for the sake of understanding the matchup by playing as or against them in your lab time.

By all means I don't mind people complaining about a character being stupid (especially lapsed character mains who are invalidated by a specific matchup - lord knows the rise of Meta Knight made me not want to spend more time with Peach). This is specifically about the "5.99" complaint which always struck me as incredibly extraneous since it only ever matters once a character turns out to be really good.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

Who are the worst matchups for Bayonetta, Cloud, and nerfed Sheik? (And why?)

I don't know if it's one of the worst, but I feel Ness does pretty good against Bayonetta. A good low percent grab game, bthrow, bair, uair, and fair can get through a decent amount of her aerials barring her bair. Ness is also floaty and can get out of a lot of her combos. I played a decent amount of games against AeroLink a couple weeks ago and not once did I get carried off the top at a low percent. I typically fell out after one or two Witch Twists.

Offstage Ness doesn't have as much to fear as the theory dictates. If you save your double jump and just float down, eventually Bayonetta has to abandon her edgeguard and you get back for free. Witch Time on PKT2 isn't a huge deal either as long as you do it close enough to the ledge. The invincibility on the first half of PKT2 stuffs any offensive pressure she would give and if she DOES Witch Time you you get to grab the ledge for free and are invincible for the entire duration of the counter.

On the other hand, Ness can't ledge camp as easily since Bayo's fthrow kills and she WILL rack up more damage than you. Falling uair should almost never hit against a decent bayo since Witch Twist is faster and able to be done OoS.

Just employ the usual Bayo MU tactics and it's a relatively even game. AeroLink tells me he thinks Bayo will eventually win the MU, but the theory and my experience against him (and he's a better player than I) tell me otherwise. 50/50 at worst, I feel. Tbf, her edgeguard game isn't optimized yet but Ness can edgeguard her pretty well too.

 

[Solfiner]

Cloud's recovery is free as hell for Shulk. Fair and Fsmash both completely outrange the hitbox of climhazard.

Cloud's Nair is also overrated, frame 5 sure but it comes out at an awkward enough angle that makes it hit a lot later than that. If he had Shulk's Nair but frame 5, then we would be talking a disgusting Nair.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm legitimately curious - is the Smash scene the only one in the FGC that's turned the mere act of good character DLC into a negative?

I don't think I ever heard this much complaining about "5.99" during, say, BlazBlue's tenure. It feels like it's only a bad thing now that it turns out the characters outshine the irrelevant ones.

5.99 (or rather, 800 yen) tier was very much a thing in BlazBlue

WORSE even because some of the DLC characters were absolutely bonkers

Bayo is obnoxious, but nowhere near the insanity that was pre-patch CP Kokonoe.

 

[ARGHETH]

Cloud's recovery is free as hell for Shulk. Fair and Fsmash both completely outrange the hitbox of climhazard.

Cloud's Nair is also overrated, frame 5 sure but it comes out at an awkward enough angle that makes it hit a lot later than that. If he had Shulk's Nair but frame 5, then we would be talking a disgusting Nair.

Cloud's free for, like, everyone offstage though.

 

[williamsga555]

@ the side b discussion:

I think Gordo toss is the most interesting side b in the game (personally), but it's far from the best, for very obvious reasons (lack of general safety, highly committal). Still, it's an incredibly important move for anyone wanting to pick up Dedede for whatever reason. There's a lot to learn about Gordos and how they work.

I think, not counting LCS, Corrin does indeed have the best side b in the cast. Divekick on Bayo is pretty damn close, though. Enough where I could see myself going back and forth between which one I'd pick by the day.

Worst side b in the cast is an interesting one to me. Off the top of my head I'd give it to R.O.B.'s rotor arms, but Egg Roll and Din's Fire also give me pause. Probably missing a few others as well, but Iunno.

 

[T4ylor]

Wait. Do people really hate Bayonetta and Cloud? I thought it was just a meme.

And where did the idea that a recovering Cloud is a free stock come from? He's got like the biggest disjoint, with good frame data to boot.

 

[Y2Kay]

If Bayonetta is as bad as everyone says, has one of the best side specials in the game

 

[BlazGreen]

I'm legitimately curious - is the Smash scene the only one in the FGC that's turned the mere act of good character DLC into a negative?

I don't think I ever heard this much complaining about "5.99" during, say, BlazBlue's tenure. It feels like it's only a bad thing now that it turns out the characters outshine the irrelevant ones.

MKX has had it's problems with Tanya and I saw a bit of DLC hate during Final Round but not on the level of "5:99"

 

[bc1910]

Who are the worst matchups for Bayonetta, Cloud, and nerfed Sheik? (And why?)

Thank you for trying to inject some constructive discussion into this topic.

I would think nerfed Sheik's worst MU is a tossup between Mario and Diddy. Both had even or close to even MUs with her prepatch, they can keep up with her in neutral, and neither has a recovery that's particularly vulnerable to her edgeguarding (which is how she needs to get most of her KOs now). Diddy's recovery in particular, whilst not great, is much better than it's usually given credit for. Otherwise, she needs to watch out for Ryu, who adores the fact that she can't kill shields, and Cloud, who can really hold his own onstage. Lucario is also a very scary MU for any character with poor kill options. Oh, and shoutouts to Sonic I guess, but tbh I don't see her changes affecting this MU as much as others; Sonic was good at punishing needles already and is very hard to grab. In my experience a lot of her kills in this MU came from Nair BF anyway.

I do think Bayo's worst MU is Greninja. He's short, forces the approach, escapes her combos and has good kill setups. Sloppy divekicks can sometimes be punished due to his run speed and incredible dash grab. This MU might well be even, but I'd call it her hardest even MU. In general, I feel having a good grab game is less important against Bayo than it was since Witch Time is no longer spammable. It's more about how you can combat her (nearly nonexistant) disadvantage stage, how well you can deal with Witch Twist, and how well you can mitigate damage when she hits you. With that in mind, I think Ness is less valuable as a counterpick and we should be looking to characters like Diddy and possibly Fox. Sonic seems to do well too, again his dash speed lets him punish divekicks and he seems to go under Bullet Climax easily.

Cloud's worst MUs are the hardest to discern. I think his worst MU is probably Bayo since it's pretty easy for her to take advantage of his meh disadvantage state, to make up for Cloud having the better neutral. She's slippery and hard to hit with LCS, and since Cloud is tall she can pressure him well with Bullet Climax. Outside that, Cloud needs to at least be wary of any character with good edgeguarding (Cloud's recovery isn't free by any means because of Cloud's physics and generous hitboxes, but about 10 characters have the tools needed to edgeguard it consistently), but he's pretty much set.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

We've been shown at top level time and time again that Cloud's recovery is not free for all characters.
Cloud's recovery being free is all theory, and at this point in the meta game it is not backed up by any results, rather contradicted by it.
Please stop saying this stuff when it's painfully apparent that it isn't the case.

 

[NWRL]

I'm legitimately curious - is the Smash scene the only one in the FGC that's turned the mere act of good character DLC into a negative?

I don't think I ever heard this much complaining about "5.99" during, say, BlazBlue's tenure. It feels like it's only a bad thing now that it turns out the characters outshine the irrelevant ones.

Kokonoe got some hate but that's kind of understandable given her powerlevel.

Strong characters like Relius didn't receive a lot of hate.

In SF4 a LOT of the best characters came from the later versions. E Ryu, Yun, Ibuki, Elena

No one complained about them.

I doubt we'll see any complaints with the new characters in SFV either.

Smashers are pretty whiny.

 

[Kofu]

Well wouldn't even function without his side-B.
all have great side-B's too.

has the best side-B in the game!

...When you get a 9. Otherwise it ranges from decent to "oh geez why did I use that."

is a huge pain in the *** for the new . now that she likely isnt killing before 180%~, he has plenty of time to get rage for spin dash ko confirms around 120%~, and random fsmash at the ledge could probably kill at 60%, also he has stock cap kill throws that will likely kill at around 140%~ considering her light weight and how much rage he'll be getting. the nerfed fair hitbox means that bair will eat it up so she has to be REALLY careful about when she throws out moves because bair eats ALL of them up(all of her moves except bair, nair, usmash, second hit fsmash, second hit utilt, dair, and second hit dsmash dont have an individual hitbox that does more than 5%, the damage that needs to be done to not get 9%ed by bair)

overall it was likely even before patch(bair still ate up a large majority of her moveset) but now it's clearly favor.

I know Sonic has largely fallen out of favor but didn't top Sonics have a good record against Sheiks before Sheik got nerfed?

 

[Smog Frog]

yeah. they did. thats why it was even pre patch and now clearly his favor now.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Dont know if its clouds worst matchup but Shulk beats cloud hand down thats a given. Why you ask? Range, shulk can outspace cloud easy peacy and therr is nothing cloud can do to break shulks spacing.

If Shulk's range allows him to win matchups, what matchups does he lose?

 

[sedrf]

Kokonoe got some hate but that's kind of understandable given her powerlevel.

Strong characters like Relius didn't receive a lot of hate.

In SF4 a LOT of the best characters came from the later versions. E Ryu, Yun, Ibuki, Elena

No one complained about them.

I doubt we'll see any complaints with the new characters in SFV either.

Smashers are pretty whiny.

people in ****ing hated elena.
people also thought e.ryu was broken.

 

[Y2Kay]

Does anyone else feel like Bayonettas recovery isn't free?

If I hit her just right with my F-air, she doesn't make it back

 

[Amadeus9]

Kinda off topic but

I made this like the day after Bayo came out, still relevant

 

[BlazGreen]

People were worried that Capcom Cup 2015 would be an Elena snoozefest. Thankfully it wasn't.

 

[NWRL]

People are going to hate on strong characters in any game. Elena was annoying to watch because of healing but that's really about it. Evil Ryu took a ton of work to be good with in Ultra and I didn't meet anyone in the FGC who would get snarky with you because you chose a character that wasn't in the OG release of SF4.

You DON'T see if people going "LMAO 5.99 xD play with a vanilla character you scrub"

 

[L9999]

I don't know if it's one of the worst, but I feel Ness does pretty good against Bayonetta. A good low percent grab game, bthrow, bair, uair, and fair can get through a decent amount of her aerials barring her bair. Ness is also floaty and can get out of a lot of her combos. I played a decent amount of games against AeroLink a couple weeks ago and not once did I get carried off the top at a low percent. I typically fell out after one or two Witch Twists.

Offstage Ness doesn't have as much to fear as the theory dictates. If you save your double jump and just float down, eventually Bayonetta has to abandon her edgeguard and you get back for free. Witch Time on PKT2 isn't a huge deal either as long as you do it close enough to the ledge. The invincibility on the first half of PKT2 stuffs any offensive pressure she would give and if she DOES Witch Time you get to grab the ledge for free and are invincible for the entire duration of the counter.

On the other hand, Ness can't ledge camp as easily since Bayo's fthrow kills and she WILL rack up more damage than you. Falling uair should almost never hit against a decent bayo since Witch Twist is faster and able to be done OoS.

Just employ the usual Bayo MU tactics and it's a relatively even game. AeroLink tells me he thinks Bayo will eventually win the MU, but the theory and my experience against him (and he's a better player than I) tell me otherwise. 50/50 at worst, I feel. Tbf, her edgeguard game isn't optimized yet but Ness can edgeguard her pretty well too.

Also, Ness doesn't care at all about Witch Time, since he plays mostly by grabbing to rack up damage safely, and when she is above, Bayonetta is PKT food, that mobility and crappy airdodge don't do her any favors, and PKT eats airdodges anyways, and PKT gives Ness the "priviledge" of doing something to Bayonetta offstage, by doing chip damage with PKT, or sniping DJs. Also, Ness shouldn't camp in the edge in any MU, that gets him offstage with any mistake done, and most people know what happens when Ness is offstage. And about the Big Ol' Hat, it shouldn't be thrown around in this MU unless Bayonetta is already doing a move, not only because of Witch Twist, but Witch Time as well. Throwing out Fairs kinda works due to the multihit thing, but it is unreliable. Still, don't get too comfy offstage, because Bayo can snipe Ness with her smashes, or just going out with her aerials and recover for free. Even MU IMO.

 

[Hazzuh]

Kokonoe got some hate but that's kind of understandable given her powerlevel.

Strong characters like Relius didn't receive a lot of hate.

In SF4 a LOT of the best characters came from the later versions. E Ryu, Yun, Ibuki, Elena

No one complained about them.

I doubt we'll see any complaints with the new characters in SFV either.

Smashers are pretty whiny.

Are you really saying no one complained about Elena? LOL. Loads of people were saying that they couldn't wait for SFV because Elena was going to ruin USFIV. Wonky hurtboxes, Healing etc etc.

Every community has characters that people hate. Morridoom, Elena, 3s Chun etc etc. The Bayonetta hates seems reminiscent of the hate for vortex characters in SFIV IMO.

 

[TurboLink]

I'm legitimately curious - is the Smash scene the only one in the FGC that's turned the mere act of good character DLC into a negative?

I don't think I ever heard this much complaining about "5.99" during, say, BlazBlue's tenure. It feels like it's only a bad thing now that it turns out the characters outshine the irrelevant ones.

If Cloud didn't have such an extreme design and more of a learning curve I don't think anyone would be complaining now.

People are going to hate on strong characters in any game. Elena was annoying to watch because of healing but that's really about it. Evil Ryu took a ton of work to be good with in Ultra and I didn't meet anyone in the FGC who would get snarky with you because you chose a character that wasn't in the OG release of SF4.

You DON'T see if people going "LMAO 5.99 xD play with a vanilla character you scrub"

Ryu doesn't get much hate.

Dont know if its clouds worst matchup but Shulk beats cloud hand down thats a given. Why you ask? Range, shulk can outspace cloud easy peacy and therr is nothing cloud can do to break shulks spacing.

I literally laughed out loud. Bravo.

Cloud's free for, like, everyone offstage though.

I think you're mixing Cloud up with Robin.

Also, Sakurai has stated that the team gathers opinions about SSB4's balancing from tournaments and website forums, so expressing opinions could mean something after all, so please take the time to test things thoroughly before calling for nerfs as well.

Do you have a source for this?

 

[BananaBake]

I think Cloud's recovery is only free for anyone with good range (or projectiles), especially offstage. Semi-Spikes do wonders against Cloud as well.

 

[Nexus Nova]

I imagine the BlazBlue community wasn't very happy about Kokonoe when she was new. I know I wasn't.

Yeah, Kokonoe in CP 1.0 was a nightmare. Characters who are rushdown types struggle to get in close with her. Even if they do, they get hit with one of her gadgets to send them back (I don't remember which one it was).

CP 2.0 gave her lots of nerfs to compliment what happened in 1.0 including her drive only allowed to be used nine times until cooldown.