Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[sedrf]

Witch twist is basically fox shine in this game. LOL -salem

Well straight from the horses mouth then.

 

[Teshie U]

I keep seeing unpunishable thrown around regarding Witch Twist: is the recovery too low for an up B OOS to catch it? I swear I got one or two Air Slashes on whiffed Twists during friendlies yesterday. Can she just use Bat Within? Or are you guys just talking about if she anti-airs you with it?

Final hit is frame 24 and the move is over on frame 29. Pretty sure any OoS action simply has to punish her next move.

 

[Aninymouse]

I keep seeing unpunishable thrown around regarding Witch Twist: is the recovery too low for an up B OOS to catch it (though thinking now not everyone has a vertical up B...)? I swear I got one or two Air Slashes on whiffed Twists during friendlies yesterday. Can she just use Bat Within? Or are you guys just talking about if she anti-airs you with it?

Your first mistake was taking complaints in this thread seriously. Thinkaman was right to call everyone out on their bull**** whining.

HEY SMASH 4 DEVELOPEMENT TEAM, please do not look to this thread for balance suggestions.

Are Cloud and Bayonetta good? Yes. Are they too good? Maybe. Are they overpowered? Absolutely not.

People should just play the game instead of complaining about it on forums all day. You'll notice that areas of Smashboards such as this do not have a plethora of top level players making posts. Why is that? They're too busy playing the game and figuring out new ways to win instead of wasting their time ******** and moaning for Sakurai and team to buff their character and nerf the others.

 

[NWRL]

Says the Cloud main

I main Ike

 

[TTTTTsd]

LET'S MOVE ON.

You and I both know that's not going to happen.

It's amusing that even with this, the cycle repeats. I should've known better.

 

[Teshie U]

Your first mistake was taking complaints in this thread seriously. Thinkaman was right to call everyone out on their bull**** whining.

HEY SMASH 4 DEVELOPEMENT TEAM, please do not look to this thread for balance suggestions.

Are Cloud and Bayonetta good? Yes. Are they too good? Maybe. Are they overpowered? Absolutely not.

People should just play the game instead of complaining about it on forums all day. You'll notice that areas of Smashboards such as this do not have a plethora of top level players making posts. Why is that? They're too busy playing the game and figuring out new ways to win instead of wasting their time ******** and moaning for Sakurai and team to buff their character and nerf the others.

You don't have to agree with people's opinions, but its kind of a cop out to assume anyone complaining just isn't trying hard enough. Its no better than the guy that says "you're only better than me because you play for 10 hours in your mom's basement".

You can definitely proactively practice and lab situations while acknowledging poor design choices. Ally definitely complains about things being dumb and he is one of the best players in the world.

 

[Big-Cat]

You don't have to agree with people's opinions, but its kind of a cop out to assume anyone complaining just isn't trying hard enough. Its no better than the guy that says "you're only better than me because you play for 10 hours in your mom's basement".

You can definitely proactively practice and lab situations while acknowledging poor design choices. Ally definitely complains about things being dumb and he is one of the best players in the world.

I dunno, from how people talk in here, it sounds like most in here don't even know how to try or lab. Let alone formulate a strategy.

Side note: People REALLY need to learn to STALL.

 

[Amadeus9]

Real talk tho, people need to spend more time testing stuff out themselves.

Relevant video

 

[Baby_Sneak]

lets start talking about meaningful things.

I'll start;

Diddy vs cloud MU I hear is stupidly annoying for diddy mains according to @Diddy Kong. But I think it's hard for them only because they can't spam Fair all day and now they have a character that beats out their normals. Of course, limit always plays a part in making everyone approach cloud, but I think that's a psychological thing going there that cloud is putting you at the disadvantage the moment the game starts. He's in the corner, not throwing out a dang thing, and you're approaching him with all the options ready to play with his mind (not to mention with a banana in hand, that's scary). I feel like diddy mains will have to shield a little more than often to stop cloud's assault and stuff, but that's the nature of swordsmen; that's how you make them stop spamming aerials. If they whiff or hit your shield (the closer you are, the more disadvantage they have), they're at a frame disadvantage. That's grab time and diddy has nice reward off of grab.

Some stuff I thought up.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I have infinite respect and admiration for Omni and Zero, but one seemingly omnipresent argument in their videos as well as among top players in general is this: "stop complaining about characters. if you want to win, learn the matchup, and if they're that broken, just use them."

This argument makes sense if smash brothers is your career. Of course if your next pay check basically comes down to whether or not you can win the prize pool in a major, then it makes no sense to complain, and you should focus your energy on winning and doing what you can to win.

The issue for lifetime smash connoisseurs and enthusiasts of the game like us is the fact that we don't just want to win. We also want to see a metagame with certain attributes that are seen as healthy such as balance, reward for player skill, etc. We love this game, and we want it to grow. A game that lacks balance, reasonable skill-reward ratios, or general enjoyment factor will not be as fun or popular in the long term, even if winning is achievable. People aren't just complaining about Bayonetta because they think she interferes with their ability to win; the obvious solution to that would be to just pick her up. The issue is that for many competitive players, she makes the game inherently less fun, and this should never happen.

I will be perfectly honest and say that I do not possess the technical knowledge or the matchup experience to say whether Bayonetta or Cloud are broken. I do, however, understand the complaints against both characters, and anyone who dismisses these complaints by saying "just learn the matchup" or "it's a competitive game, if you think they're broken just main them" clearly missed the effing point.

 

[Ghostbone]

Their point isn't that broken characters are ok, it's that if you think a character is actually broken/imbalanced, prove it yourself by playing them.

You have no right to complain before even trying to learn to beat them or picking them up yourself.

 

[Greward]

People should just play the game instead of complaining about it on forums all day. You'll notice that areas of Smashboards such as this do not have a plethora of top level players making posts. Why is that? They're too busy playing the game and figuring out new ways to win instead of wasting their time ******** and moaning for Sakurai and team to buff their character and nerf the others.

It's because I play the game that I'm whining. I do play against bayonetta, I lab to find something that can be a solid check to her because she's clearly a problem in the way of getting dem moneys and I complain because she deserves to be complained at.

Heck, just go to ****ing twitter and you'll see a lot of top players complaining about Bayonetta (not all of them, but in time they might). Some of them are even pro-ban.

The actual problem is the people saying stupid stuff like she isn't that good because they clearly aren't competing in this game.

 

[Peppermint1201]

People should just play the game instead of complaining about it on forums all day. You'll notice that areas of Smashboards such as this do not have a plethora of top level players making posts. Why is that? They're too busy playing the game and figuring out new ways to win instead of wasting their time ******** and moaning for Sakurai and team to buff their character and nerf the others.

Not sure if you've noticed but this thread is titled 'Competitive Impressions' not 'Complain About The Game.' Complaints and whining are pretty uncommon in this thread and I'm noticing a lot of angry reactions (such as this one) to a problem that doesn't really exist.

 

[S_B]

If the schedule of patches is truly once per month, Bayo is going to be queen of the castle until April 15th at which point we can expect things to change again.

IF the patch schedule stays consistent, mind you. There's no guarantee that patches will continue at all, though I highly doubt this would be the last one because it left so many ailing characters untouched and it was consistent with previous patches (that weren't the last patch, either) that buffed some, nerfed some, but left most unchanged.

It didn't feel like a "This is the last patch so we better fix EVERYTHING!!" situation.

Also, I expect we'll see a Bayo nerf because I'm sure that FG Bayos will figure this out and use it to no end online as well (in fact, I'm betting they're doing it right now...).

 

[Yikarur]

This patch has proven that people will always complain. The patch made it even worse.

I think Diddy beats Cloud. Cloud doesn't have great tools to let Diddy play his upair game against him and Diddy will always focus on his ground game where Diddy has a clear advantage at. Results are in Diddys favor as well right now.

 

[TurboLink]

I guess some Diddy mains aren't used to not being able to play like they want to and depending less on fair.

 

[Big-Cat]

Not sure if you've noticed but this thread is titled 'Competitive Impressions' not 'Complain About The Game.' Complaints and whining are pretty uncommon in this thread and I'm noticing a lot of angry reactions (such as this one) to a problem that doesn't really exist.

From all the whining about Cloud and Bayonetta, sounds like you're wrong.

 

[Peppermint1201]

From all the whining about Cloud and Bayonetta, sounds like you're wrong.

um did you read the post you quoted

 

[Amadeus9]

Holy **** if I was a mod this thread would have been nuked about 2 pages ago. This is getting way out of hand.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Holy **** if I was a mod this thread would have been nuked about 2 pages ago. This is getting way out of hand.

What is?

 

[Y2Kay]

Ya know....we could just shoot around ideas for the anti-bayonetta formula instead of.....you know... complaining

 

[TurboLink]

Holy **** if I was a mod this thread would have been nuked about 2 pages ago. This is getting way out of hand.

I don't think you're helping.

So...does anyone want to talk about the Ryu vs. Cloud matchup?

 

[HoSmash4]

Are we not able to complain and lab against the characters or are these actions mutually exclusive?

Granted complaining isnt healthy for the thread, but it does bring up some good points if their complaints are well justified.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Looking at the posts on the past few pages the amount of "complaining" may seem like a lot purely based on the number of posts, but if you look at the different users more people are defending , encouraging developing countrerplay etc. than whining. Again, it seems we're scared of a problem that isn't very common.

 

[BananaBake]

Not sure if you've noticed but this thread is titled 'Competitive Impressions' not 'Complain About The Game.' Complaints and whining are pretty uncommon in this thread and I'm noticing a lot of angry reactions (such as this one) to a problem that doesn't really exist.

Not too sure about uncommon. definitely not common, but not uncommon. I remember when (not naming names) 1.1.5 initially came out, there was a two-page argument about his Up-B

 

[Strong-Arm]

This thread is derailing and going downhill so fast....jeez. Lets talk about where the game may go from here maybe? Lets pretend that this is the last patch btw

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I remember when I got called out for suggesting that there could be more patches on the way. "Nonsense," they said. "Sakurai is on vacation," they said. Now here we are, 60 pages later, discussing a meta game in which sheik is no longer #1 and where charizard is actually borderline playable. This game is funny.

 

[L9999]

Strong-Arm We were doing that, then the dev team dropped 1.1.5. The rest is history.....

 

[Strong-Arm]

Its all charizard and Sheiks fault.....switching the game upside down. Rip the competitive impressions thread (jk)

 

[BSP]

@anyone who has a serious mega man:

Do you think the Sheik nerds are enough to drag the character back to relevance? She seemed to be (and still may be) his biggest hurdle in competitive play.

 

[ligersandtigons]

I also hate how Bayonetta can cancel her taunts. Completely nullifies the risk of taunting

 

[Peppermint1201]

Funny to think that a world where Sheik is the best character will be but a footnote in Smash history. She wasn't even the best for a year. Anyway, someone needs to come up with a list of discussion questions for when the topic dies down/goes off track (i.e. right now)

 

[ARGHETH]

There's been more posts defending Bayonetta and Cloud in the last five pages than posts complaining about them, so I find all the posts complaining about complaining to be hilarious.

Where's the mods, seriously.

 

[Y2Kay]

Umm....let's talk about

they had a splash this weekend but I know little about them. What are there bad matchups, strengths, weaknessess.....

I think they could use some spot light

 

[PK Gaming]

Alright, time to change things up

So who wants to talk about things that happened in Come to Papa? Here are some of things I noticed:

• I'm still feeling those nerfs. There were so many moments where she'd be able to seal a stock with down throw to uair, but she can't now. I can't believe actually people tried to downplay this.
• Related to the above, everyone's viability shot up a bit because of getting toned down. Seems like almost every character has a legit chance of taking a game off of her, which is unbelievably sexy.
• Ryo has gotten really good at gauging whether to use or in a specific matchup. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that he's dual maining both characters at this point (but with a preference for Ike, obviously)
• Speaking of , the nerfs really didn't end up mattering to much. Her opportunistic / defensive gameplan is still rock solid and Ryo was even able to get a Nair > Uair kill on Master Raven's sheik at 87%, which definitely wasn't possible before.
• is also a big winner from this patch by virtue of being untouched/having a solid top tier matchup spread (he definitely beats Bayo) I actually feel like he's a shoe in for top 5 now.
• seems like a solid character, and will for sure do better in a less overtuned meta. He really needs more love.
• Not trying to throw shade at or because I legit like them, but tournaments are a lot more fun to watch when neither of them are really present. lol

 

[Zelder]

So earlier someone said that Corrin had the best side B in the game, and I'm not inclined to disagree - it's versatile, it's ranged, it's fast as all hell, and it can kill. But then I was thinking - who else has good side B moves in this game? Bayo's heel slide is bonkers, Cloud's cross slash (in limit) is double bonkers, Sonic's spin dash is a huge part of his game plan, etc. etc.. What do you guys think are the most competitively important Side Bs in this game?

edit: haha, everyone tried to shift gears at the same time

 

[Caststarman]

Quick question about this tier list. Will it be getting changes soon, or is gonna take a while? This was based on 1.1.3 IIRC, and pretty much every character has been hit (character data and also MUs), so it seems like a new one is in order, maybe in a month or so once things have settled down.

 

[C0rvus]

I know Olimar had a good weekend, with Greenbeast and Myran placing well. But what is everyone's impression of Olimar? He seems pretty uncommon, and it's hard to pin down his relative strength.
My impression is that he's likely got a pretty skewed MU spread, either he can camp you, or he can't. Ofc it's more complex than that but as a baseline, he seems pretty hyperbolic. I notice he's very susceptible to combos. Stuff that works on only part of the cast seems to always work on him, and if I recall correctly, he's the only character that Ganon can... Down smash? Out of Flame Choke. Something like that.
Is his tech roll really short or something? I know he's incredibly slow in the air. For a defensive character, his defenses seem pretty poor. Or perhaps he's more of a pressure oriented character, and he uses Pikmin to force reactions and make the opponent impatient. I know when Myran plays him, he's all over the screen, throwing Pikmin, pivot grabbing, micromanaging; it's quite a display.

Edit: lmao I guess I was a little late to the punch. Everyone wants to talk Olimar, I love it!

 

[ARGHETH]

Quick question about this tier list. Will it be getting changes soon, or is gonna take a while? This was based on 1.1.3 IIRC, and pretty much every character has been hit (character data and also MUs), so it seems like a new one is in order, maybe in a month or so once things have settled down.

They said it's going to be a couple months until they make a new tier list...maybe in the summer or so.

So earlier someone said that Corrin had the best side B in the game, and I'm not inclined to disagree - it's versatile, it's ranged, it's fast as all hell, and it can kill. But then I was thinking - who else has good side B moves in this game? Bayo's heel slide is bonkers, Cloud's cross slash (in limit) is double bonkers, Sonic's spin dash is a huge part of his game plan, etc. etc.. What do you guys think are the most competitively important Side Bs in this game?

I think LCS is better, tbh, considering the intangibility and how early it kills. Corrin's is up there, but probably not the best.

 

[2fast]

So...does anyone want to talk about the Ryu vs. Cloud matchup?

Ryu can easily get out of Clouds up air juggles thanks to focus attack and it's an all around amazing tool against Clouds mostly single hit moves. However Cloud can easily condition Ryu into focusing and then just clock him cross slash. Ryu can kill early naturally but Cloud can kill Ryu fairly easily thanks to limit cross slash which no focus attack will save you from.

I'd say it's 50/50 as they both have moves (or I should say, a move) that counters the other. Trela also thinks it's 50/50.