Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[HoSmash4]

When Bayonetta can hit confirm to death if she gets reversal off you in a ledge situation (Witch twist, downwards ABK, witch time), its hard to just tell people 'just keep stage control and its fine and dandy'.

Funnily enough Nintendo nerfed side-b and witch time because thats what we complained about, when the real demons were the super safe Witch Twist and downwards ABK.

Yeah Bayonetta definitely forces players to play more smart, but it's a testament that she is the only character that has forced it completely.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dive kick is def a problem. If you take away the bounce on shield tho she will legit drop two whole tiers.

 

[Lag Chan]

I know that's a joke post but I'll still never truly understand why so many top level players think Mii Fighters would destroy the game's meta if they were legalised.

 

[Pancracio17]

More matchups to learn are a bad thing i guess

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Maybe Shulk miraculously does well against a top tier for once, but I don't really get what the fuss with Cloud is all about, at least in regards to needing a nerf. I mean obviously he's getting results and stuff but...I dunno besides UAir's hitbox being kinda frustrating sometimes he doesn't have anything that screams busted to me (yes even LCS. There's no confirms into it as far as I know and he can only use it once per Limit Break. If I got hit by it I messed up, just like with KO punch). Perhaps it's a different perspective to players of non-disjointed characters.

I think Bayo is kinda painful, reward-wise but I do appreciate fighting solid ones for teaching me not to hit buttons cause boy howdy she can whiff punish like nobody's business. A bit disheartening that her main combo starter is faster than every attack in my moveset but them's the breaks as a Shulk player. If they decide to throw out another patch to nerf her, fine, whatever, but honestly if I want anything patched at this point it's for maybe another buff here or there and for For Glory to finally allow Miis so I can bust out the Black Knight and Knuckles (and for Miis to actually exist).

 

[Rizen]

I don't think Cloud is ban worthy but what bothers me about him is he bypasses the checks and balances that other sword fighters are burdened with. Cloud has huge range, great movement, good power, an option to force approaches that can be canceled in Limit charging, a projectile and good frame data. Meanwhile Link has to have slow frame data and bad movement because he has a sword and projectiles, Ike can't have a projectile because he has a big, strong sword, Roy has good mobility so he has to hit close and approach, etc.
InB4 people say "Cloud has a bad recovery". His air speed and weight negates a lot of that problem, although I admit he is gimpable with a good read. It's not enough of a counterbalance.

 

[Radical Larry]

I don't think Cloud is ban worthy but what bothers me about him is he bypasses the checks and balances that other sword fighters are burdened with. Cloud has huge range, great movement, good power, an option to force approaches that can be canceled in Limit charging, a projectile and good frame data. Mean while Link has to have slow frame data and bad movement because he has a sword and projectiles, Ike can't have a projectile because he has a big, strong sword, Roy has good mobility so he has to hit close and approach, etc.
InB4 people say "Cloud has a bad recovery". His air speed and weight negates a lot of that problem, although I admit he is gimpable with a good read. It's not enough of a counterbalance.

Cloud does have bad endlag on some attacks and bad landing lag on others, as well as horrific startup on U-Smash, F-Smash and F-Air, for example. That and his projectile is next-to-pointless and some of his attacks are very weak or are also pointless (F-Tilt's kind of pointless), as well as a bad throw game against characters with good aerial mobility, weight or falling speed...or projectiles.

 

[C0rvus]

His recovery is a notably exploitable thing, though. Like, even if you can't gimp him when he has Limit, he still has to use it to recover.

The nerf to Finishing Touch is pretty nice. You don't have to fear air dodging quite as much against him, but it's still there.

Oh, it's there.

 

[Solfiner]

I just need to point out that the second half of Limit up-B doesn't have a hitbox. Challenge that recovery please.

 

[Big-Cat]

Check your top tier privilege

Bowser is top tier?

 

[randomguy1235]

If this is the last patch, I can say that the top 5 are all pretty healthy characters. Bayo is a little suspect but other than her each top tier has strengths along with clear weaknesses that can be exploited.

Calling for nerfs just makes you look salty. If you aren't getting results with your character, it's time to start really labbing and change your approach to the game or find a new character. You don't get to wait for results because you think XX is "problematic" (I really ****in hate that word lmao)

Patches really do spoil the playerbase.

Says the Cloud main

 

[L9999]

For Glory to finally allow Miis so I can bust out the Black Knight and Knuckles (and for Miis to actually exist).

The bolded. So bad it is needed.

Cloud does have bad endlag on some attacks and bad landing lag on others, as well as horrific startup on U-Smash, F-Smash and F-Air, for example. That and his projectile is next-to-pointless and some of his attacks are very weak or are also pointless (F-Tilt's kind of pointless), as well as a bad throw game against characters with good aerial mobility, weight or falling speed...or projectiles.

And that startup on his smashes is why Cloud players don't use them and Cloud loses NOTHING for not using them, since he has his Limits and aerials to kill. If you have good moves and pointless moves, which ones you use? Obviously the good ones. Unless you have a lot of bad moves and you have to work with the salvageable ones like most trash tiers do, having a couple pointless moves is not a detriment of viability.

Says the Cloud main

Normal from top tier players. When I chaingrab people playing Brawl and they complain, I say things like "Don't do something stupid that gets you grabbed" Knowing well that I'm playing a broken character and I abuse exploitable predictableness.

 

[Teshie U]

Did SU stream it? are there going to be VODs?

BTW, ZeRo's video is pretty spot on.

SU did not stream this one, its on Twitch.tv/atxsmash4 i believe. Quality isn't as high so I don't expect youtube vids to be expedited but the twitch VODs have the dirty details if you can't wait.

One thing I learned (and this is so stupid) is Ryu can get his stupid lagless cancel moves witch timed and then START MORE MOVES while slowed down.

This event also featured 3v3 INSTEAD of 2v2. I really wish smash 4 would embrace the exclusive modes we have here and work on developing a 3v3 meta. It feels very satisfying to watch.



On the subject of Bayonetta. As a fan of the source games, I think the developers missed the mark AND made more design choices with her. Witch time had the opportunity for to add some depth to the RPS game she is playing, but her moves are so versatile and overpowering that she essentially gets to play RPS but she gets to pick two things at the same time. I personally feel like Witch Time should have been Bayo's answer to "buttons", and of course it is, but she also has rather overpowered range and safety so she is commanding respect with a counter that can't be outspaced AND oppressing most of the cast with strangely large hitboxes. 90% of the time, you are watching out for Witch Time and even if you read her attacks, they are way bigger than yours for no apparent reason. In Bayonetta, enemies sure as hell out prioritize you and most of your attacks don't even flinch your opponents.

This doesn't just feel wrong to me as a fan, but competitively it feels like she puts the entire weight of precision in neutral on her opponent. She flings around lots of massive lingering hitboxes that also ALL setup for her superlative combo game. Has unique defensive options that make punishing her hard for predictability very hard (Up B, dive kick, witch time, frame 1 dodge to escape). Her recovery is insane on distance and priority.

It feels like playing vs brawl ice climbers again, except there isn't a massive tech skill barrier preventing half your bracket from just having a Bayonetta.

 

[Goesasu]

Dive kick is def a problem. If you take away the bounce on shield tho she will legit drop two whole tiers.

Bouncing fish also "bounces" on shield -mom did you see what i did there?- and i dont see people complaining about it.

IMO any attack that bounces on shield is way too safe, if dive kick bouncing on shield is a problem then sheik bouncing must be also.

 

[HoSmash4]

Bouncing fish also "bounces" on shield -mom did you see what i did there?- and i dont see people complaining about it.

IMO any attack that bounces on shield is way too safe, if dive kick bouncing on shield is a problem then sheik bouncing must be also.

BF doesnt lead to death on hit on stage except at 100% when a normal attack would.

 

[Otterz]

BF doesnt lead to death on hit on stage except at 100% when a normal attack would.

After getting hit by divekick DI down and away. There, no death.

 

[Goesasu]

BF doesnt lead to death on hit on stage except at 100% when a normal attack would.

But is still a very spammeable non risky way too safe move that sheik could repeat until it hits, even if the reward isnt as high its the same principle.

Bayos is less as an issue as people make it out to be, she is good but not as good as prenerf sheik, zss or mk.

 

[kackamee]

After getting hit by divekick DI down and away. There, no death.

Beyonetta players in a nutshell.

 

[Amadeus9]

JFC you people agreeing with @Thinkaman know he's making fun of you right? I'm ****ing done

 

[TurboLink]

But is still a very spammeable non risky way too safe move that sheik could repeat until it hits, even if the reward isnt as high its the same principle.

Bayos is less as an issue as people make it out to be, she is good but not as good as prenerf sheik, zss or mk.

No it is not. LOL. Have you even played Sheik before? Bouncing Fish is one of her least spammable moves.

 

[Otterz]

Beyonetta players in a nutshell.

We say it because it's true and everyone complains instead of learning the DI. Of course she's gonna get some easy combos on you if you just mindlessly wiggle your control stick around.

 

[Jalil]

Maybe Shulk miraculously does well against a top tier for once, but I don't really get what the fuss with Cloud is all about, at least in regards to needing a nerf. I mean obviously he's getting results and stuff but...I dunno besides UAir's hitbox being kinda frustrating sometimes he doesn't have anything that screams busted to me (yes even LCS. There's no confirms into it as far as I know and he can only use it once per Limit Break. If I got hit by it I messed up, just like with KO punch). Perhaps it's a different perspective to players of non-disjointed characters.

I think Bayo is kinda painful, reward-wise but I do appreciate fighting solid ones for teaching me not to hit buttons cause boy howdy she can whiff punish like nobody's business. A bit disheartening that her main combo starter is faster than every attack in my moveset but them's the breaks as a Shulk player. If they decide to throw out another patch to nerf her, fine, whatever, but honestly if I want anything patched at this point it's for maybe another buff here or there and for For Glory to finally allow Miis so I can bust out the Black Knight and Knuckles (and for Miis to actually exist).

I wish mii's were allowed on for glory too but I doubt that'll happen cuz of all the mini hitlers that would run around

 

[Emblem Lord]

Regardless of DI she can get some nice confirms and its DAMN safe for the reward it presents.

 

[Dusk Pit]

I really think Cloud is fine as is, nothing op or stupid. He is weak on shield, his throws suck, rolls are bad, recovery is nonexistent outside of limit. I just don't see how big disjoints and good autocancels make Cloud the best character in the game who people complain about. It's not that he is the only one with some safe moves on shield and he doesn't even kill unfairly early.

 

[S_B]

Please remember one thing, folks...

It's entirely possible to express an opinion that something might be overpowered and could stand to be nerfed while STILL playing the game as though this will be the last patch and doing everything they can in the lab to figure out ways around it.

There seems to be this idea that people are trying to fight Bayonetta, losing to her 0-death combo, and then putting the game down or something. I don't think that's the case, here...

Also, Sakurai has stated that the team gathers opinions about SSB4's balancing from tournaments and website forums, so expressing opinions could mean something after all, so please take the time to test things thoroughly before calling for nerfs as well.

 

[Otterz]

No, not regardless. If you DI out of her combo you can fast fall and wait to punish her hefty RCO lag (Or whatever we're calling her lag from her specials).
As the meta develops Bayonetta will have to read her opponents' DI on many of her combos.

 

[Goesasu]

No it is not. LOL. Have you even played Sheik before? Bouncing Fish is one of her least spammable moves.

The same could be said about bayos dive kick, its not actually as spammeable as people make it out to be. Both attacks can be avoided or punished by the same defensive options -spot dodge-.

My point is, if people are going to start complaining about bayos dive kick then lets complain about sheiks bouncing fish, they are very very similar.

Bayos true power resides in witch twist, not dive kicking.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I wish mii's were allowed on for glory too but I doubt that'll happen cuz of all the mini hitlers that would run around

Except they're allowed in tournament mode. And you can see your opponent's user mii in For Glory anyways. But this is for another topic in another time.

RE: Bayo's dive kick. It's just one of her many attacks that you just gotta respect. Bayo's in the air at a diagonal? Better throw up shield. And don't forget to respect the second one too. Battlefield/Dreamland/Lylat mitigate it a bit because platforms, though I certainly wouldn't take Bayo to Lylat.

 

[C0rvus]

This event also featured 3v3 INSTEAD of 2v2. I really wish smash 4 would embrace the exclusive modes we have here and work on developing a 3v3 meta. It feels very satisfying to watch.

3v3 might be the most interesting way to play this game. Team composition matters, and you can really work together in dynamic ways without too much happening on the screen. I've been to 4v4 events, and that's too cluster****-y for my taste. I wish teams events were more common, there are so many ways to play this game and we ignore most of them.

 

[Trifroze]

Yeah we really need another character of that mold, doesn't at all sound super boring.

On a sidenote, all of you people whining about Cloud and Bayo and crying for nerfs, if you weren't saying the same thing about Sheik and Zss pre-patch -which you weren't- you really need to question yourselves. Sheik prepatch was more OP than Cloud is now and Zss was at least on par with him. As far as Bayo goes its too early to tell, but its likely the same deal. Srsly, just because a character is DLC or plays a certain way which you happen not to like doesn't mean you get to cry nerf. You should cry nerf when something is OP as ****, like prepatch Sheik. Instead ppl are all about dat Stockholm syndrome.

Some people have this strange idea that the only true warrant for a nerf comes from a character as a whole being overpowered, not from a certain option of an otherwise average character being completely overtuned. It would be silly to decide nerfs on performance alone when aiming for enjoyable gameplay, instead they have to be determined based on design. If a character is badly designed with an overtuned option that overshadows everything else the character has, then that character is badly designed and should be fixed by reducing the effectiveness of said option, and by improving some other aspects of the character in return. Sometimes the former is done but the latter isn't which is unfortunate, but if you have a problem with that, don't dedicate time on characters that strive because of one or two moves.

With this in mind, the difference between Cloud/Bayo and Sheik/ZSS hate can be understood without thinking it comes from them being DLC, although it probably does play a part as well. Although for whatever reason, it seems ZSS will be hated by most lower level players for as long as her up b and back air kill anywhere below 150%.

 

[Teshie U]

Bouncing fish bounces away from you and commits to a 2nd kick. Sheik only has 2 options after bouncing on your shield. Bayonetta can do anything after dive kick (including another stupid divekick).

I think they really flubbed the landing lag weakness she is supposed to have for throwing out her specials. there are too many ways around it so it tends to require relatively specific options to punish her for "lol i mashed side b+up b for no reason". The combination of witch time, dive kick, go to the ledge and "bair their shield anyway" pretty much means if you don't have a good ground speed +good grab range+damn good grab GAME, she has little reason to regret fishing.

 

[Greward]

The sad thing about bayonetta is that patches will hardly matter on her.

The actual good nerfs to bayonetta would imply longer startup and longer end lag on upb and sideb, which aren't going to happen because they would affect the fundamentals on which the character is designed (stupidly broken fundamentals but still). I guess more landing lag on divekick can be a thing, atm most characters are too slow to punish it even on a read.

Bayo's upB is probably the most stupidly broken move in the game. Frame 4 out of shield that hits both sides, is not punishable (not punishable frame 4 moves are kinda not balanced) and it actually shield pokes and has good range and beats any move on clank. It also has one of the biggest rewards in the game.

 

[sedrf]

the most supidily broken move is limit cross slash

 

[Big-Cat]

Those things aren't even broken.

 

[/|Sawtooth/|]

If we're keeping Miis locked to avoid learning new MUs generated from tweaks to specials, why is Dark Pit allowed again?

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I keep seeing unpunishable thrown around regarding Witch Twist: is the recovery too low for an up B OOS to catch it (though thinking now not everyone has a vertical up B...)? I swear I got one or two Air Slashes on whiffed Twists during friendlies yesterday. Can she just use Bat Within? Or are you guys just talking about if she anti-airs you with it?

 

[Peppermint1201]

If we're keeping Miis locked to avoid learning new MUs generated from tweaks to specials, why is Dark Pit allowed again?

This is not a thread for ruleset discussion.

 

[TurboLink]

If we're keeping Miis locked to avoid learning new MUs generated from tweaks to specials, why is Dark Pit allowed again?

You can't be serious.

 

[sedrf]

because dark pit isn't a custom character

 

[C0rvus]

If we're keeping Miis locked to avoid learning new MUs generated from tweaks to specials, why is Dark Pit allowed again?

I can see what you're trying to say here, but that isn't the same thing at all. Dark Pit has like 3 differences from Pit, mist of which are simple and apparent. Meanwhile, Miis can be completely different depending on their moves and size.

I'm pretty sure Miis aren't banned because noone wants to learn the matchups, but at the same time, I don't want to learn the matchups. I'll be honest.

Miis are banned mostly due to existing in a grey area, being inconsistent and somewhat inconvenient to worry about as a TO. That's mostly in terms of majors, on the local level if you want Miis legal, go bug your TO.