Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Dinoman96]

How to fix Zelda:

Step 1: Take her current moveset/design
Step 2: Nuke it from orbit

I love the smell of napalm in the morning!

Step 3: Start all over.

 

[Big-Cat]

You guys are always so dramatic about everything deemed problematic. Seriously, this kind of attitude is just a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Radical Larry]

How to fix Zelda:

Step 1: Take her current moveset/design
Step 2: Nuke it from orbit

I love the smell of napalm in the morning!

Step 3: Start all over.

If Zelda hasn't changed in the past three games, that means only one thing; they don't need to "fix" Zelda. That's how they intended her to be from the get-go. She's always been intended, by the developers, to be a precision-based character with powerful attacks. There's no need to "fix" what's been made. They're not going to redesign her, they're not going to do some crazy stuff with her, she's going to be like this with her moveset and nothing can change that.

In order to make her more balanced, since she cannot be "fixed", they'd need to make her F-Air and B-Air AC on SH, that's it. If she can AC in a SH, then you don't need her to be "fixed", since she'll have two great tools for footsies then. That and giving her D-Throw a different trajectory and less KB with less lag on her would balance her with the cast, making her a middle tiered, balanced character.

So no need to fix what can just be mended.

 

[TDK]

Ideas to fix Zelda:
- make down smash start on frame 3 again
- make Nayru's love start on frame 3
- make Phantom charge shield-cancel able
- Return lightning kicks to melee versions
- Make Din's fire it's PM incarnate
- Give Farore's wind less endlag (maybe make it an approach tool?)
~~Gibe her her Melee down-b~~

 

[Diddy Kong]

So what puts the matchup in Cloud's favor exactly?

Cloud is the only character who can keep up with Diddy's mobility, and can outrange him while doing it. He easily out-zones Diddy, and Blade Beam destroys bananas and is actually good for keeping Diddy at bay. Diddy also isn't too good at gimping Cloud without putting himself in serious danger. So it takes a long time for Diddy to get the kill compared to Cloud, who can just do LB Down B and kill you at half the % Diddy needs to work for against Cloud. It's hard to get stage control against someone who outspaces you so much. Definitely in Cloud's favor, if only slightly.

 

[BlazGreen]

If we do get any more balance updates then I hope they focus more on the weaker half of the roster. I can think of about 3 nerfs I'd want and I don't think any of them are essential or something that the meta desperately needs.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm still believing that Cloud's not the best character. He's got glaring flaws that you are all overlooking. He still has endlag on attacks that leads him into being punished heavily on block, a projectile that's actually relatively slow and unsafe to use despite its range, literally one of the worst recoveries if you don't have Limit and various attacks are slow in frame data. He has a horrible throw combo game, his only combo throw (being a 50/50 chance to combo no less) is D-Throw, and he even has low combo potential outside of U-Air's combo capabilities. His disadvantage is horrible when he gets off stage, and he's very susceptible to getting semi-spiked by a multitude of characters.

I play the character as one of my mains and I just don't consider him that good. He's no uber top tier character and I've yet to see some stunning evidence on the contrary. Having less power on your attacks and more charge time on your Limit makes you worse. Finishing Touch being nerfed when used in the air really hurt him more than ever, too.

I've barely seen many Clouds use Blade Beam at high level, so I don't see where you're getting at. It's a lesser good part of his moveset, so that's why it's not used commonly since Cloud has way more reliable tools to use in neutral. Him not having combo throws is not a problem either, all his throws are good for giving you breathing space to potentially charge Limit. It's like saying isn't good because he lacks true combos off throws when he has more than enough to make up for it. His only remotely "slow" attacks in frame data are his smashes, which you shouldn't be using anyway unless you've got a good read. We know it's evident that Cloud has a below-average recovery, but good luck getting him there in the first place. I've stated many times that characters throughout Smash games have been able to be top tournament threats even with having a poor recovery as a notable flaw, so I'm not going into that again.

he even has low combo potential outside of U-Air's combo capabilities.

Please tell me you are being facetious. Up air is not his only combo'ing move.

 

[Bowserboy3]

If Zelda hasn't changed in the past three games, that means only one thing; they don't need to "fix" Zelda.

Wow, that's a funny joke, I like it! I must add this to my joke book...

Ok, being serious now, Zelda does have many core problems that need addressing (or, "fixing"), which is obvious, as the balance team are trying to make Zelda a more solid fighter in the patches. Yes, the balance team want her as a slow, but powerful magic user, which is fine, but Zelda doesn't have the right tools to put her power to good use. Project M got it right, which proves Zelda can be "fixed" so to speak, but adding little damage buffs to jab or giving down smash less endlag doesn't fix the character. The balance team are going totally the wrong way about trying to buff her IMO.

 

[Radical Larry]

@Feelicks Of course I know U-Air's not his only combo move, that's why I play him. He's got D-Tilt, U-Tilt, N-Air and B-Air, along with some D-Air action that would allow for combos, and I use them to a higher extent than normal when applicable.

Wow, that's a funny joke, I like it! I must add this to my joke book...

Oh, you know what I mean. Moveset-wise, Zelda's not primarily changed whatsoever outside of getting some frame data changes and one new move. Overall, what she is has never changed, being a precision-based character.

If we do get any more balance updates then I hope they focus more on the weaker half of the roster. I can think of about 3 nerfs I'd want and I don't think any of them are essential or something that the meta desperately needs.

Well, there will be at least one to three more updates, if not four total more updates to go up to 1.2.0. Knowing that there are still going to be lower tiered characters, the developers are probably focusing on buffing them for any future update. So within all of those possible patches, of course they'll touch upon characters and tune up or tone down the cast.

 

[Luig]

If we do get any more balance updates then I hope they focus more on the weaker half of the roster. I can think of about 3 nerfs I'd want and I don't think any of them are essential or something that the meta desperately needs.

I think what the patches have been showing is that they balance characters in groups. Balancing everyone at once would take a lot of time. So I'm pretty sure we'll have another patch.

 

[Radical Larry]

Zelda has many core problems that need addressing (or, "fixing"). Project M got it right.

Since I made my post before you edited yours, let me ask, why should the developers take notes from a fan-made mod? Yes, Zelda has many core problems, but not to the point of "fixing" them. The developers didn't mostly change Zelda because she's meant to have that moveset. She can be tuned up sometime, but in no way are they ever going to drastically change her moveset. She'll have moderate buffs here and there, but she'll never have things that will satisfy you, or those who want her to be "fixed" up. The fact of the matter is, she'll stay this way and she'll never be akin to that Brawl mod.

 

[C0rvus]

He's saying she can be fixed, even in a manner that keeps her identity intact. That's it. And it's true, Zelda could become a good character with a few key changes.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Since I made my post before you edited yours, let me ask, why should the developers take notes from a fan-made mod? Yes, Zelda has many core problems, but not to the point of "fixing" them. The developers didn't mostly change Zelda because she's meant to have that moveset. She can be tuned up sometime, but in no way are they ever going to drastically change her moveset. She'll have moderate buffs here and there, but she'll never have things that will satisfy you, or those who want her to be "fixed" up. The fact of the matter is, she'll stay this way and she'll never be akin to that Brawl mod.

I'm not trying to say that the developers should take notes from a fan made mod. My point was that the development team don't seem to want to address the problems that keep her from excelling. Project M got it right in the fact that Zelda had enough options to put her power and precision to good use for example.

 

[Radical Larry]

He's saying she can be fixed, even in a manner that keeps her identity intact. That's it. And it's true, Zelda could become a good character with a few key changes.

I'm not trying to say that the developers should take notes from a fan made mod. My point was that the development team don't seem to want to address the problems that keep her from excelling. Project M got it right in the fact that Zelda had enough options to put her power and precision to good use for example.

Alright, I understand where you're getting at now. Though...

The main key changes to mold her into a better character would be an AC F-Air and B-Air off of SH, and having a Ganondorf-esque grab buff to her D-Throw. That would make her better at footsies and have an overall better combo game. Maybe remove some ending lag here or there on some attacks, like B-Air and F-Air, but nothing outside of that should need to be changed.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm treating every patch like it's the last one because sitting around and waiting does nothing for my knowledge or understanding of the game. It's a mentality I've picked up over time that I didn't have even half a year ago but I'm so so glad I did. You get so much more labbing and work done when you fixate yourself on solely that, not on the idea that "They'll patch it out anyways!" Perhaps this is personal and anecdotal, but whatever, everything in this thread is based on personal experience and ideas anyways. Will I deny or attest the chances of another patch? Nah, not a debate I think is worth it.

Why does every matchup discussion involving Cloud (7 times out of 10) end with "nerf this character?" Are people that content with just waiting for results to come to them?

Perhaps it should come as ABSOLUTELY no surprise that the characters who are easy to play are winning the most, I feel like this mentality is pervasive. Not even going to cite Cloud, Mario CONSISTENTLY gets results and while I chalk it down to ease of use, in some ways I feel like it's mostly because people just don't feel like learning or breaking down roadblocks.

I'm not going to directly accuse anyone here but it just seems a recurring trend and it's disheartening. Where'd the gusto go? The drive?

I suppose I'll give another competitive impression at the end of this to keep it relevant, but we can't seem to decide on a clear #1 can we? It boils down to top tier/relevant MUs but they all seem to beat/lose to a handful of chars that are different in each individual case, particularly Cloud/Bayo/Rosa, though Cloud I don't think loses to Bayo. He's a likely candidate but I'm not really sure tbh. The more I think about it, the more I wonder if Bayonetta will get better or hell, even Rosalina with the very few remaining roadblocks she has. Though it's significantly hard to gauge Rosalina considering she loses to Cloud and he seems to be fairly common in bracket.

 

[L9999]

I'm still believing that Cloud's not the best character. He's got glaring flaws that you are all overlooking. He still has endlag on attacks that leads him into being punished heavily on block, a projectile that's actually relatively slow and unsafe to use despite its range, literally one of the worst recoveries if you don't have Limit and various attacks are slow in frame data. He has a horrible throw combo game, his only combo throw (being a 50/50 chance to combo no less) is D-Throw, and he even has low combo potential outside of U-Air's combo capabilities. His disadvantage is horrible when he gets off stage, and he's very susceptible to getting semi-spiked by a multitude of characters.

I play the character as one of my mains and I just don't consider him that good. He's no uber top tier character and I've yet to see some stunning evidence on the contrary. Having less power on your attacks and more charge time on your Limit makes you worse. Finishing Touch being nerfed when used in the air really hurt him more than ever, too.

Finishing Touch didn't live up to the hype. it is too sluggish for being used againt a real and competent human being. Limit Cross Slash is the real Finishing Touch. Cloud has a throw combo, it is called Throw to Limit Charge. Good luck trying to get a good Cloud offstage with that lagless gigantic sword of his.

 

[Radical Larry]

Finishing Touch didn't live up to the hype. it is too sluggish for being used againt a real and competent human being. Limit Cross Slash is the real Finishing Touch. Cloud has a throw combo, it is called Throw to Limit Charge. Good luck trying to get a good Cloud offstage with that lagless gigantic sword of his.

I'll just wait for him to come in and grab him with a tether grabbing character. He has some fast attacks coming out, but endlag is very harsh on him on a lot of his attacks, so that makes him susceptible to being thrown out of the stage and kept out of the stage.

Some characters can very easily hit him off and keep him off.

 

[NWRL]

If this is the last patch, I can say that the top 5 are all pretty healthy characters. Bayo is a little suspect but other than her each top tier has strengths along with clear weaknesses that can be exploited.

Calling for nerfs just makes you look salty. If you aren't getting results with your character, it's time to start really labbing and change your approach to the game or find a new character. You don't get to wait for results because you think XX is "problematic" (I really ****in hate that word lmao)

Patches really do spoil the playerbase.

 

[Big-Cat]

Problematic is a tumblr word at this point.

 

[L9999]

I'll just wait for him to come in and grab him with a tether grabbing character. He has some fast attacks coming out, but endlag is very harsh on him on a lot of his attacks, so that makes him susceptible to being thrown out of the stage and kept out of the stage.

Some characters can very easily hit him off and keep him off.

Cloud doesn't approach. He charges Limit. Then he overpowers you with his frame data, then he kills you. His aerials have huge hitboxes and have almost no lag. Cloud demands respect. And you can bait tether grabs and they are punished severely.

 

[Big-Cat]

I suppose Cloud is invincible during charge and you can't read a roll.

 

[Das Koopa]

If Zelda hasn't changed in the past three games, that means only one thing; they don't need to "fix" Zelda.

Well, she's also been bottom 5 in the last three games, a prestigious award no other franchise character can claim to have. It's time to consider that her design as a character sucks. In fact, I'm pretty sure the entire idea behind her character was to make her hit hard after you've racked damage with Sheik.

Her moveset gives a lot of leeway for defensive options. Her specials need buffs, because SHAC Aerials aren't going to suddenly make her a good character when one whiff means you're getting juggled and abused.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I suppose Cloud is invincible during charge and you can't read a roll.

Actually to be fair challening LB Charge is very difficult unless he does it stupidly like right in front of you. Usually the best option is to instantly cancel into a Jab (there's a way to buffer through shield or something I forget) or just tap B again and run away more cause Cloud has a very non-commital charge.

Felt the need to clarify, sorry.

 

[Big-Cat]

Fine then I'll just corner him.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

I'll just wait for him to come in and grab him with a tether grabbing character. He has some fast attacks coming out, but endlag is very harsh on him on a lot of his attacks, so that makes him susceptible to being thrown out of the stage and kept out of the stage.

Some characters can very easily hit him off and keep him off.

Wait. What.

What good Cloud is just gonna run at you? Very few Cloud's - let alone players - are gonna just run at you, especially when you have a dair that AC out of fullhop and lingers for eternity as well as combos into just about every aerial he has (which then combo into themselves and AC out of a short hop). Link might be able to wall Cloud out for about 6.7 seconds, then Cloud becomes just too fast to really keep him out reliably. Offstage ofc it's in Link's advantage with z-drop bombs and all sorts of shenanigans, but it's not as easy as you make it sound. Cloud can also autosnap to ledge, a la M2K, or recover high and be almost unpunishable by most chars. And then if he gets Link offstage... gg no re. Cloud is a gimping machine with nair, fair, dair, LB CS, LB BB, FT if he wants to style.

(Yes, I know you said "tether grabbing character" but I'm operating under the assumption you mean Link).

There really just isn't much you can do vs Cloud offstage. It's a sorry state of affairs, but it's true. Edgeguarding in this game needs to be optimized anyways, and I can't wait for people to take it seriously.

EDIT:
TTTTTsd you're right, you can buffer ANY attack but specials using tilt-stick and A/B smash. It allows you to skip LB charge ending lag entirely and go right into the move (dtilt being a good one since it's a powerful burst option that can combo. Most people won't be prepared for it either).

 

[TurboLink]

I suppose Cloud is invincible during charge and you can't read a roll.

Cloud doesn't have to roll. Only stupid Cloud's roll every time you get close to them while they're charging their Limit Gauge. Rolling every time someone gets near you is laughably predictable. What kind of Cloud players are you playing against?

 

[Bobert]

I'm surprised that some people still think that FT is/was Cloud's primary killing tool in singles.

 

[2fast]

I suppose Cloud is invincible during charge and you can't read a roll.

Cloud can click downb during any point of his limit charge and cancel it immediately, allowing him to use any move he wants.

Fine then I'll just corner him.

I don't think it works that way. When Cloud is charging limit, he's cornering you.

 

[Hippieslayer]

If Zelda hasn't changed in the past three games, that means only one thing; they don't need to "fix" Zelda. That's how they intended her to be from the get-go. She's always been intended, by the developers, to be a precision-based character with powerful attacks. There's no need to "fix" what's been made. They're not going to redesign her, they're not going to do some crazy stuff with her, she's going to be like this with her moveset and nothing can change that.

In order to make her more balanced, since she cannot be "fixed", they'd need to make her F-Air and B-Air AC on SH, that's it. If she can AC in a SH, then you don't need her to be "fixed", since she'll have two great tools for footsies then. That and giving her D-Throw a different trajectory and less KB with less lag on her would balance her with the cast, making her a middle tiered, balanced character.

So no need to fix what can just be mended.

Yeah we really need another character of that mold, doesn't at all sound super boring.

On a sidenote, all of you people whining about Cloud and Bayo and crying for nerfs, if you weren't saying the same thing about Sheik and Zss pre-patch -which you weren't- you really need to question yourselves. Sheik prepatch was more OP than Cloud is now and Zss was at least on par with him. As far as Bayo goes its too early to tell, but its likely the same deal. Srsly, just because a character is DLC or plays a certain way which you happen not to like doesn't mean you get to cry nerf. You should cry nerf when something is OP as ****, like prepatch Sheik. Instead ppl are all about dat Stockholm syndrome.

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't think it works that way. When Cloud is charging limit, he's cornering you.

He also gets meter from taking or dealing damage. Why approach him at all?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I've come to the conclusion that Cloud is probably the best character. And I hate fighting him as Diddy, it's definitely in Cloud's favor, and the ************ is way too easy to pick up and play. Literally there's no character you can use as a pocket like Cloud, and be effective with it. Him and Bayonetta need some more nerfs honestly.

Cloud is gonna be that character that is as good as you are sooner or later.

Yeah we really need another character of that mold, doesn't at all sound super boring.

On a sidenote, all of you people whining about Cloud and Bayo and crying for nerfs, if you weren't saying the same thing about Sheik and Zss pre-patch -which you weren't- you really need to question yourselves. Sheik prepatch was more OP than Cloud is now and Zss was at least on par with him. As far as Bayo goes its too early to tell, but its likely the same deal. Srsly, just because a character is DLC or plays a certain way which you happen not to like doesn't mean you get to cry nerf. You should cry nerf when something is OP as ****, like prepatch Sheik. Instead ppl are all about dat Stockholm syndrome.

pre patch sheik wasn't even that bad tbh it's just that most of the characters she bodied had weaknesses that were a bit too severe (some exceptions however).

 

[Diddy Kong]

Yeah we really need another character of that mold, doesn't at all sound super boring.

On a sidenote, all of you people whining about Cloud and Bayo and crying for nerfs, if you weren't saying the same thing about Sheik and Zss pre-patch -which you weren't- you really need to question yourselves. Sheik prepatch was more OP than Cloud is now and Zss was at least on par with him. As far as Bayo goes its too early to tell, but its likely the same deal. Srsly, just because a character is DLC or plays a certain way which you happen not to like doesn't mean you get to cry nerf. You should cry nerf when something is OP as ****, like prepatch Sheik. Instead ppl are all about dat Stockholm syndrome.

Pre-patch Sheik was easier for me to beat with Diddy than Cloud. So there's that. Zero Suit Samus was especially easier. Much easier.

 

[Big-Cat]

Pre-patch Sheik was easier for me to beat with Diddy than Cloud. So there's that. Zero Suit Samus was especially easier. Much easier.

Don't know what you're doing other than trying to rushdown Cloud.

 

[2fast]

He also gets meter from taking or dealing damage. Why approach him at all?

Because letting him charge without him taking any damage means he's going to be able to get more Limit Breaks in that stock, which is not fun to deal with. They should nerf the charge time more by a considerable margin and give Cloud the most limit reward by dealing damage.

But hey, if no more patches come out and Cloud goes unchanged then everyone will eventually just adapt anyway.

 

[Peppermint1201]

I've come to the conclusion that Cloud is probably the best character. And I hate fighting him as Diddy, it's definitely in Cloud's favor, and the ************ is way too easy to pick up and play. Literally there's no character you can use as a pocket like Cloud, and be effective with it. Him and Bayonetta need some more nerfs honestly.

I think it's safe to say Cloud wins the Diddy matchup or at least goes even. M2K is 2-0 in sets vs MVD iirc, and he made ZeRo switch off of Diddy at PAX.

 

[TTTTTsd]

They should nerf

Couldn't go a page without it I see........

 

[Big-Cat]

Because letting him charge without him taking any damage means he's going to be able to get more Limit Breaks in that stock, which is not fun to deal with. They should nerf the charge time more by a considerable margin and give Cloud the most limit reward by dealing damage.

But hey, if no more patches come out and Cloud goes unchanged then everyone will eventually just adapt anyway.

Git gud.

 

[hypersonicJD]

People came back to this attitude because Nintendo realized the Sheik and Meta Knight nerfs. They didn't had the hope for Sheik to be nerfed, and then suddenly 1.1.5 came along and changed the meta game entirely. And which Sheik being nerfed to not being among the top 5, people just want even more nerfs to have a ''chance'' againts Cloud and Bayonetta.

I don't mind. Sonic is looking better than ever, with ZSS and Cloud being nerfed (Cloud in a lesser extent) and now Sonic possibly wins the Sheik MU, and he also doesn't have too much trouble with Bayonetta or Diddy. I'm happy with the Sheik nerfs yes, but that doesn't mean I want the other top tiers to be nerfed, they have enough weaknesses to be dealth with. People really need to stop complaining and put some real effort to the game. 1.1.4 Sheik literally had no weaknesses, except SOMETIMES not being able to kill. But it didn't matter anyway because she had those effective 50/50 from Down throw. Now that's gone and we have top tiers with weaknesses that can be defeated by any good character.

The game hasn't been better than this patch honestly. Yeah we had some variety and good patches, but I think this was the best one, Samus no longer bottom tier, Bowser and Charizard getting air speed buffs, among others, Bayonetta, Cloud and Corrin getting nerfed at some extent, Zero Suit Samus also being nerfed but not unusuable, Sheik dethroned and being a new and honest character. Same with Meta Knight, he was one of my secondary's and it hurt me to see his up air combo get taken away, but at least people are going to develop new combos with his fair and make him a honest character.

And now, Sonic having a great time without getting touched for like 3 patches in a row and getting Sheik and Zero Suit nerfed.

Like TSD said, we need to get out of the mentality of getting things nerfed or buffed and keep developing the meta as it is right now. We might get some of the most unsigniffacant nerfs in the game's life time and barely anything changed, or get some huge nerfs, reworks of characters or buffs. We can't tell, but what we can do is work with what he have right now and get some good results.

 

[[BROF]]

For those interested in Ed's I found some footage in the Twitch VODs.
Around 1:40 in https://www.twitch.tv/polaritygg/v/55518357 Part of the Salty Suite.
The uair hitbox buff is very noticeable, especially in how he uses it to shark below the stage.

And Bracket matches here in the top-end of the bracket too:
https://www.twitch.tv/polaritygg/v/55584948

Match with Myran at 8:53
A few observations here. The new Nayru's love really helps with landing.

Sadly couldn't find anything else. It seems that the match against Ryo was off-stream.

 

[2fast]

Git gud.

That's...what I basically said...in my last sentence... >.>

Couldn't go a page without it I see........

I played brawl for years and dealt with MK (who is far beyond what any character in Smash 4 is) but alas, nintendo has spoiled me now.