Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[valakmtnsmash4]

...

fair fits those descriptions. if by "get off me" you dont mean "combo breaker". the only thing this fair cant do is be a combo breaker.

That's what I mean, m2s fair fulfills 2 out of the 3 criteria.
And combo breaker is a better term, thanks.

 

[TurboLink]

When talking about the best aerials, there are many factors to consider. IMO, the best aireal would be a get off me option, a combo starter, and a high damaging move.
Edit 'd thanks m2 chainz for saying the same :D
Are there any characters with aerials like that?

Ryu's fair?

 

[Smog Frog]

nairs animation is misleading @Bannanabake the animation is f3 but the hitbox doesnt come out until f7

 

[FullMoon]

I never thought I would be seeing someone say Greninja's F-Air is fast.

I don't mean to make fun of @BananaBake or anything because it's easy to not know stuff about Greninja, I just thought it was really funny.

If Greninja's F-Air was fast then Sheik's must be going at the speed of the light lmao

 

[ARISTOS]

I at least, kind of agree.
Sheik's fair is very difficult to space with right now, does a third of the damage and is barely better at comboing than Mewtwos.
Sheik's fair is -6 on block to Mewtwo's -5 (on landing), with Sheik's auto cancel at best being -3.

Mewtwo's is pretty insane in vacuum-contrast.
Furthermore I could very well argue that Mewtwo has similar mobility (better in some ways due to that double jump), a more threatening and safer projectile (less cool down than Luigi fireballs, cannot be jumped over, 10ish frame release while in charge, can do 25% and will kill), better range on normals and in several areas the frame data differences are minimal.

Strong grab game without guaranteed follow ups that leads into a very strong advantageous position (due to mewtwo's amazing vertical and horizontal movement) and the strongest vertical killing throw in the cast by a large margin.

Mewtwo in general has a ton of really silly tools that on other characters would be downright bonkers. Fair, Nair, Dtilt, Confusion, DSmash, U-Throw, F-Throw, Shadow Ball and even Jab are all really great moves that many other characters would kill to have (ESP DTilt)

He's much more fitting of a glass cannon now, the character is very exciting to play both with and against.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, I wouldn't be comfortable to proclaim Mewtwo's fair is the best aerial in the game completely.
But in terms of how Forward Airs go, the staple Diddy, Sheik and later on Ryu fairs are not providing the KO power Mewtwo's is but are all very strong in their own rights still.

Sheik's neutral air is still godlike.
And Cloud's Up Air is still everything anyone could ever want.

 

[sedrf]

tyrant's meta knight looking as clean as ever

 

[MKchouy]

Greninja's fair has a lot of startup even after the buff.

Diddy, Pika and Palutena are contenders for best fair but M2's is still probably the best

 

[Djmarcus44]

is fair the best overall aerial in the game? does any other aerial have its generous combination of speed, power, range, and safety? i'm really feelin that this fair is the best in the game.

I don't want to sound like a broken record (I have made this point multiple times on multiple threads), but I think that Mii Gunner's fair is the best fair in the game. Gunner's fair is a better fair than Mewtwo's fair because Gunner's fair is more versatile. Gunner's fair is amazing in the neutral since is a transcendent priority projectile that is safe on perfect shielding with only 12 frames of landing lag. It also allows Gunner to have great burst mobility due to Gundashing (it gives Gunner the speed of a falcon kick without any landing lag). Since it has low landing lag, it also combos into many of Gunner's moves (these combos are listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread). It even combos into charge blast at low percents (this is also a kill setup at high percents). The speed boost also allows Gunner to have a really good juggling game. Gundashing with fair is also helpful in the disadvantage state since it allows gunner to avoid some juggling and it allows Gunner to mix up a high recovery by Gundashing back to the stage. While Mewtwo's fair is very good, Gunner's fair is definitely the best in the game since it is very useful in the neutral, advantage and disadvantage states. For these reasons, Gunner's fair is also one of the best moves in the game.

Since I actually want to bring something new to this discussion, I will also mention that Gunner's up tilt is also very good. Gunner's up tilt is frame 5, and it kills around 135. This is a good killing option that helps to mitigate Gunner's lack of a reliable kill confirm. In addition, it also juggles characters at low to mid percents with its weak hitbox. It also puts the opponent in a great position for follow ups into up smash at low percents or up air at mid to high percents. I think that Mii Gunner's up tilt is a top ten up tilt since it has a combination of speed, power, and combo potential.

 

[Radical Larry]

When talking about the best aerials, there are many factors to consider. IMO, the best aireal would be a get off me option, a combo starter, and a high damaging move.
Are there any characters with aerials like that?

Not even kidding.

Get-Off-Me move? Check; horizontally, it's better to get characters away from him. Vertically, you need to be precise.
High damaging move? Does 24% damage sound low to you?

As for a combo starter, this may sound silly and it is quite tricky, but Link has getup options that Izaw had touched upon in the Art of Link video, such as F-Air, but considering the patches, is F-Air able to combo into anything? Yes. Like his Z-Air hit 2, Link can successfully get a Dash Grab on any opponent (except Jigglypuff due to her weight) by just using his F-Air at very low damage. This sets up for his D-Throw combos and into a plethora of attacks, although it's only reliable at lower damages, it's all you really need if you hit the opponent.

I've done this on players online, offline, in-tournament offline, haven't missed a single combo like that, unless the opponent shields or is in a better position, although the latter rarely happens. But Link's F-Air has other boons such as the range, early killing ability and the ability to hit twice.

Link's F-Air isn't anything to laugh at; it's one of his deadliest moves in the game and definitely one of the best aerials in the game for any character. Sure, it's a F14 attack, but its boons defeat the purpose of the slow startup. If you land one hit, your opponent's going to be thrown off.

Definitely by no means the best, but it's one OF the best in the game by far.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Not even kidding.

Get-Off-Me move? Check; horizontally, it's better to get characters away from him. Vertically, you need to be precise.
High damaging move? Does 24% damage sound low to you?

As for a combo starter, this may sound silly and it is quite tricky, but Link has getup options that Izaw had touched upon in the Art of Link video, such as F-Air, but considering the patches, is F-Air able to combo into anything? Yes. Like his Z-Air hit 2, Link can successfully get a Dash Grab on any opponent (except Jigglypuff due to her weight) by just using his F-Air at very low damage. This sets up for his D-Throw combos and into a plethora of attacks, although it's only reliable at lower damages, it's all you really need if you hit the opponent.

I've done this on players online, offline, in-tournament offline, haven't missed a single combo like that, unless the opponent shields or is in a better position, although the latter rarely happens. But Link's F-Air has other boons such as the range, early killing ability and the ability to hit twice.

Link's F-Air isn't anything to laugh at; it's one of his deadliest moves in the game and definitely one of the best aerials in the game for any character. Sure, it's a F14 attack, but its boons defeat the purpose of the slow startup. If you land one hit, your opponent's going to be thrown off.

Definitely by no means the best, but it's one OF the best in the game by far.

I'm not only talking about fairs, but all of the aerials. Links fair is very good for damage output. But what are the "combos" it can lead to? What about DI? Links fair does sound good
Radical Larry posted something somewhat reasonable. What is my life

 

[ILOVESMASH]

May just be me, But I think Diddy's FAir is overall better than Mewtwo's in the neutral due to Diddy's better SH and his FAir having better range overall. Marth's FAir is also better in the neutral in my opinion as well for similar reasons.

 

[Y2Kay]

the only character's fair I think truly compares is maybe Villager and Diddy

 

[Peppermint1201]

Fitting that Smog Frog was discussing Mewtwo's aerial prowess, since it just came out on stream. In a matter of seconds, Rich Brown took K9's Sheik from 0-100. http://oddshot.tv/shot/2ggaming-201603224536798

What's the spread on this matchup post-patch?

 

[ARISTOS]

Fitting that Smog Frog was discussing Mewtwo's aerial prowess, since it just came out on stream. In a matter of seconds, Rich Brown took K9's Sheik from 0-100. http://oddshot.tv/shot/2ggaming-201603224536798

What's the spread on this matchup post-patch?

Forgot to mention this earlier, but another big threat carried by Mewtwo's fair and not others is the fact that Mewtwo's AD makes him completely invisible, after which he is able to reappear and hit you with the fair. That's an insanely scaring situation

 

[Y2Kay]

Fitting that Smog Frog was discussing Mewtwo's aerial prowess, since it just came out on stream. In a matter of seconds, Rich Brown took K9's Sheik from 0-100. http://oddshot.tv/shot/2ggaming-201603224536798

What's the spread on this matchup post-patch?

Evenish at worst probably. Mewtwo already gave her trouble by getting out of her 50:50's needle camping back then was the real kicker that made it 40:60 for Mewtwo

 

[C0rvus]

Sheik still wins. She can still avoid footsies and Needles > Shadow Ball. It's just super flimsy, as we just saw. Sheik has to work for those kills especially because of Mewtwo's floatiness. If she gets a throw, he's just going to sail away, no chance for a pseudo follow-up.
In the end, Sheik's ability to play so safe and control the pace of the match still gives her the edge. We shall see in the future, though. That Rich Brown/k9 set could've turned around with a hit or two, at any point. Rage Mewtwo is supremely scary.

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, if that recent set and other things I've seen from K9 since has been any indication of where Sheik is going.

Sheik needs to use bouncing fish to succeed. And K9 was using it frequently but in a different way each time, and also mixed up the position he flew in afterwards each time.
I think this dynamic has a lot more 'game play' available to an opponent than Sheik's ability to play dash, shield, grab until she secured a kill.

Seriously, better seeing this "spammed" than grabs in my eyes.

 

[Browny]

Mewtwo has the best fair in the game for the same reason that Cloud has the best uair in the game.

You just get so much damage from it, and its not damage in the sense of 'most my other attacks are bad except a few really good ones that I will use over and over' like what kind of suffer, its just so reliable to get 45+ damage a stock off that one move thrown out often because of how regularly it will win trades.

Ultimately, if an attack doesnt deal a lot of damage per stock, when the entire purpose of an attack is to deal damage or KO, the attack isnt very good. Sheiks fair will reliably rack up maybe 30-40 damage a stock but it isnt going to kill.

Seriously, the exact same logic that makes Clouds uair the best in the game over say, Marios, also makes Mewtwos fair the best in the game over sheiks. They are basically the same attack but with the direction switched around.

That said, I'm bored so here's my unwarranted opinion and I didn't spend too much time on it.

Spoiler

1:
2:
3:()
4:
5:
6:

Not enough info

 

[Nobie]

It's like Smash 4 101, but I think people forget the importance of sidestepping Bouncing Fish so that Sheik can't safely bounce off the shield. What mucks this up of course is the ability to vary the distance and timing of Bouncing Fish.

 

[Y2Kay]

Forgot to mention this earlier, but another big threat carried by Mewtwo's fair and not others is the fact that Mewtwo's AD makes him completely invisible, after which he is able to reappear and hit you with the fair. That's an insanely scaring situation

the fact that Fair can be Short hop air dodged is what pushes it to an elite level

Sheik still wins. She can still avoid footsies and Needles > Shadow Ball. It's just super flimsy, as we just saw. Sheik has to work for those kills especially because of Mewtwo's floatiness. If she gets a throw, he's just going to sail away, no chance for a pseudo follow-up.
In the end, Sheik's ability to play so safe and control the pace of the match still gives her the edge. We shall see in the future, though. That Rich Brown/k9 set could've turned around with a hit or two, at any point. Rage Mewtwo is supremely scary.

It's even-ish is what I meant

 

[TurboLink]

Mewtwo has the best fair in the game for the same reason that Cloud has the best uair in the game.

You just get so much damage from it, and its not damage in the sense of 'most my other attacks are bad except a few really good ones that I will use over and over' like what kind of suffer, its just so reliable to get 45+ damage a stock off that one move thrown out often because of how regularly it will win trades.

Ultimately, if an attack doesnt deal a lot of damage per stock, when the entire purpose of an attack is to deal damage or KO, the attack isnt very good. Sheiks fair will reliably rack up maybe 30-40 damage a stock but it isnt going to kill.

Seriously, the exact same logic that makes Clouds uair the best in the game over say, Marios, also makes Mewtwos fair the best in the game over sheiks. They are basically the same attack but with the direction switched around.

That said, I'm bored so here's my unwarranted opinion and I didn't spend too much time on it.

Spoiler

1:
2:
3:()
4:
5:
6:

Not enough info

Mind explaining why Link is so low?

 

[Djmarcus44]

the only character's fair I think truly compares is maybe Villager and Diddy

Why wouldn't you think that Mii Gunner's fair compares to Mewtwo's fair?

Spoiler: Mii Gunner's fair

I don't want to sound like a broken record (I have made this point multiple times on multiple threads. The only reason why I am posting this again is to see if Y2Kay or anyone else has any reasons why Gunner's fair isn't comparable to Mewtwo's), but I think that Mii Gunner's fair is the best fair in the game. Gunner's fair is a better fair than Mewtwo's fair because Gunner's fair is more versatile. Gunner's fair is amazing in the neutral since is a transcendent priority projectile that is safe on perfect shielding with only 12 frames of landing lag. It also allows Gunner to have great burst mobility due to Gundashing (it gives Gunner the speed of a falcon kick without any landing lag). Since it has low landing lag, it also combos into many of Gunner's moves (these combos are listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread). It even combos into charge blast at low percents (this is also a kill setup at high percents). The speed boost also allows Gunner to have a really good juggling game. Gundashing with fair is also helpful in the disadvantage state since it allows gunner to avoid some juggling and it allows Gunner to mix up a high recovery by Gundashing back to the stage. While Mewtwo's fair is very good, Gunner's fair is definitely the best in the game since it is very useful in the neutral, advantage and disadvantage states. For these reasons, Gunner's fair is also one of the best moves in the game.

 

[Kofu]

Not even kidding.

Get-Off-Me move? Check; horizontally, it's better to get characters away from him. Vertically, you need to be precise.
High damaging move? Does 24% damage sound low to you?

As for a combo starter, this may sound silly and it is quite tricky, but Link has getup options that Izaw had touched upon in the Art of Link video, such as F-Air, but considering the patches, is F-Air able to combo into anything? Yes. Like his Z-Air hit 2, Link can successfully get a Dash Grab on any opponent (except Jigglypuff due to her weight) by just using his F-Air at very low damage. This sets up for his D-Throw combos and into a plethora of attacks, although it's only reliable at lower damages, it's all you really need if you hit the opponent.

I've done this on players online, offline, in-tournament offline, haven't missed a single combo like that, unless the opponent shields or is in a better position, although the latter rarely happens. But Link's F-Air has other boons such as the range, early killing ability and the ability to hit twice.

Link's F-Air isn't anything to laugh at; it's one of his deadliest moves in the game and definitely one of the best aerials in the game for any character. Sure, it's a F14 attack, but its boons defeat the purpose of the slow startup. If you land one hit, your opponent's going to be thrown off.

Definitely by no means the best, but it's one OF the best in the game by far.

His FAir isn't a very good get-off-me move as it's quite slow, but it is excellent for spacing.

Worth pointing out that Link's NAir and BAir both only have 10 frames of landing lag and FAir only has 12. Not bad for their damage and, in FAir's case, range.

 

[Y2Kay]

Why wouldn't you think that Mii Gunner's fair compares?

Cuz I forgot the Miis where characters

yeah their Fair is really good, I can't believe I let it slip my mind.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Cuz I forgot the Miis where characters

yeah their Fair is really good, I can't believe I let it slip my mind.

It's alright. A lot of people sometimes forget about Miis. At least it is somewhat helpful since some combos aren't tested on the Miis either.

 

[LancerStaff]

So what's Corrin's matchup spread like? Or rather, what's there that warrants a top 15 placement?

 

[Nobie]

Re: fairs

Despite Radical Larry 's propensity for odd opinions, Link's fair really is kind of dumb good. It might be slow to start but 12 frames of landing lag for something that strong is pretty danged good. Incidentally, Mii Gunner's fair also has only 12 frames of landing lag.

@Thinkaman mentioned that Mewtwo's fair threatens a gigantic amount of space above him thanks to his double jump, which is one of its strengths. The idea that Mewtwo's fair isn't good in all three states though is kind of not true. It's good to use in a ton of situations, and being a combo move, a damage move, and a kill move all in one means, even if it's not the best in the game, its usefulness can't be denied.

Mewtwo has a lot of moves like this, really. I was watching this video on different types of normal attacks in Street Fighter V, such as pokes, whiff punishers, spacers, pressure moves, hit confirms, combo starters, etc. Mewtwo's down tilt is a poke/whiff punisher/spacing/hit confirm/combo starter all in one.

 

[C0rvus]

So what's Corrin's matchup spread like? Or rather, what's there that warrants a top 15 placement?

Well, Corrin beats Mario, does decent against Sheik, Rosa, Fox, etc. Doesn't have any relevant matchups that are super good or super bad. Kind of like Pit but better.

I don't think he's top 15 though, but who's asking me?

 

[Y2Kay]

Kind of like Pit but better.

Bruh that's Lancer Staff's trigger phrase

I honestly don't think he's a straight up upgrade.

 

[thehard]

Along with what Shaya said, I think offstage needles are going to be vital to Sheik's success too. And her mains are going to have to kick the habit of grabs as high-percent punishes and move onto f-tilt, d-tilt, and jab (when applicable). Walking d-tilt in general is godlike.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Re: Shulk vs Cloud

I'm curious about the dynamics of Limit vs Monado, both before and after Limit is fully charged. Is it that easy to limit camp a character who can choose to outrun you while also wielding an equally large sword? Is Jump decent for straight up avoiding even limit boosted up air juggles? If Shulk is in Shield Monado, what is Cloud's game plan other than "wait it out?"

A bit late on this, but the monado is why I feel like the matchup isn't too bad. While he lacks the control, Shulk can zip around as quickly as Cloud and shield is nice to have against limit. @AnEventHorizon summarized things pretty well I think. It's basically a high speed spacing war from my experience.

On a broader note, with the existence of Cloud and Corrin along with the range buffs to Marcina and Ike, I feel that Shulks really need to take as much advantage of his mobility from jump and speed as possible: it's the one "big thing" he has left (though his overall range is still the best I think?). Empty jumps/speed pivots into grabs, full hop fairs to swat approaches, be Sonic with a big slow-ass sword when you've got a lead, that kinda stuff, combined with Monado Activation shenanigans. I've been seeing improved performance at the weeklies I go to, at the very least.

 

[C0rvus]

Bruh that's Lancer Staff's trigger phrase

I honestly don't think he's a straight up upgrade.

I know, I was mostly being an ass on purpose.

Hard to place Corrin accurately being newly nerfed (albeit very slightly) and without much to go by. For the time being I think the Pits are slightly better, but it may not be the case. They are of a similar power level regardless, with pretty doable MUs across the board.

 

[Tri Knight]

Mind explaining why Link is so low?

Because he was one spot off from making top 8 in Beast 6. Therefore hes bottom tier.

 

[Browny]

Mind explaining why Link is so low?

I haven't seen enough gfys of him swagging on people

Seriously mid/low tier is impossible to order. I just simply haven't seen Links doing amazing vs high level players.

 

[Nobie]

STOP TAKING SHEIK TO SMASHVILLE.

Watching players lose on Smashville, and then GO STRAIGHT BACK TO SMASHVILLE is infuuuuriating.

 

[G. Stache]

Man, anyone else watch the ConCon vs Void set? I guess Luigi's live and die by the mashing. Even though ConCon lost (with two very disappointing SDs because he messed up the Jumpless cyclone recovery), the set was a really good one. I gotta say, ConCon really made Sheik look extremely doable for Luigi. Though that's the man who's in the same region as both Void and K9...so I suppose he gets a lot of practice. I don't want to say it just after one set, but the Sheik/Luigi MU might just be around even after seeing actual high level play to back it up. Don't know about anyone else, but having Sheik be this much more tame really ups my spirits quite a bit...even if ConCon was sent to losers.

EDIT: Mewtwo, in the other hand, is unsurprisingly a really bad MU...kinda saw that one coming. I'd be willing to put that MU into the -2 range...

 

[Y2Kay]

G. Stache do you think Mewtwo has a winning matchup against Luigi now? I always thought so, and now we have some high level evidence

 

[Pancracio17]

I feel like everyone says they are even with shiek now that she lost her 50/50 lol. I guess not having kill options makes the mu seem that much easier.

 

[Broqan]

STOP TAKING SHEIK TO SMASHVILLE.

Watching players lose on Smashville, and then GO STRAIGHT BACK TO SMASHVILLE is infuuuuriating.

Add CLOUD to that too.