Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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ReRaze

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I was talking about her side-b. Saying that it's frame 6 is probably a little confusing considering that's only the pin hitbox from behind.

Actually rereading it that whole sentence is confusing, but basically if your opponent is shielding a lot, side-b is a pretty good option against most of the cast. And it can kill if it hits (starting at 105+? I think) on anticipated shield drop.
Side-B is not safe on shield, alot of out of shield options can beat it on reaction (the pin that is, I think tipper in the air without pinning is safe?).
 
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TriTails

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Consider the difference between juggling a Mario at high percent and juggling a Luigi. With Mario you have nothing to be afraid of, even if his escape options are just as fast, so you might as well swing at him. With Luigi, if you get n-aired, you might die, so very often you just won't swing.
3 frames of clean frames for a move to be able to kill that requires you to be literally right next to people is not threathening, ESPECIALLY in juggling situations. It's impractical to challenge U-airs with N-air, let alone hitting the clean sweetspot. Best he can do is to avoid the U-air entirely and punish back with late hit of N-air.

If I manage to hit with the clean frames of N-air in a juggling situation then I'd be asking my opponent what the heck they were doing lol.
 
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Nidtendofreak

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With all due respect, I don't want to hear that from someone who is incredibly, extraordinarily, unequivocally and transparently biased towards Ike.

Am I excited about Corrin? Absolutely, but there is nothing wrong with a little enthusiasm towards a new character. Do I constantly make absurd sweeping statements like "There is no reason to use Ike over Corrin" or come up with flimsy excuses to defend said character from valid criticism? No, so I think it's a little much to be placed in the same group as Lancer.

Secondly, I didn't need to list Pit's advantages; I only listed the advantages that Corrin had over Pit that made her a better character in my eyes. And Corrin can convert into fairly damaging strings from her aerials... Her combo game is very clearly one of her strong points, which leads me to believe that you haven't been keeping up with her metagame if you don't think its better than Pit's. And you're completely off your rocker if you think D.P's side B (a slow yet powerful option) is even remotely on the same level as absurdly solid Corrin's Side B. A move that is literally one of the cornerstones of her neutral.
You gotta learn the difference between "extraordinarily biased" and "Has time to learn one character inside and out and largely sticks with the character they are comfortable with". I'd absolutely love to try to pick up Sonic, I think he's still not particularly optimized and that the Sonic mains rely on Spin Dash too much instead of foxtrotting and walking. Charizard I managed to play around with a bit back during the 3DS/early Wii U days, still find him very fun to use. Robin is the character I tried to make a dual main with Ike, his playing style just did not mesh with mine at all. Cloud obviously, everyone and their mother tries out in the SSB4 community. Don't have time to do any of that.

Really that whole opening just proved my point. The moment I chime in you attacked me.... kinda like how the moment somebody is "meh" about Pit, Lance steps in. No? Except Lance does the personal attacks less.

As I said in another post: people are going at Corrin's Side B wrong. When I can watch Ryo try out Corrin, or pretty much anybody trying out Corrin, and call borderline every use of the Side B and just watch their opponent run face first into it, people aren't thinking of how to handle it. They aren't used to it. That will change with time, and how strong its considered will go down accordingly.
 
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BunbUn129

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I actually think the inclusion of :4cloud:and :4bayonetta:is healthy for the meta game. Yes, I do. As people have said, they add more viable choices for competitive play and diversify the play styles present in the top-tier. But there's more than that.

I believe the inclusion of such threatening characters will teach us players vital aspects of gameplay that we would previously downplay or outright ignore, part of which was due to our lack of commitment, and a part of which is simply because we didn't really need to learn them. Case-in-point: edge-guarding. I think :4cloud:'s inclusion and his dominance onstage is what restores the importance of edge-guarding. Edge-guarding was always important in Smash 4, but some disregarded it because of "free recoveries" (of course, recoveries will be free when you don't commit to an edge-guard. Whouda thunk it?). So I think :4cloud:'s dominance onstage is going to force people to actually practice their edge-guarding abilities, not just against Cloud, but in turn the rest of the cast. Cloud's recovery isn't abysmal like :4littlemac:'s, but it's still bad.

From the top-tiers of Smash 4, we can learn a few things:

:4sheik:: learn to play neutral properly. This includes the skill of baiting and conditioning. But Sheik doesn't teach you everything, and that's why the new DLC characters are going to be healthy for the community.

:4metaknight::4bayonetta::4zss:: learn to DI (and SDI in Bayo's case), and learn to play footsies, because these characters' neutrals are pretty average (for top-tiers).

:4cloud::4diddy::4ryu:: learn to edge-guard and extend juggles.

:4diddy:: learn your opponent's tendencies and abuse them (due to Diddy's item play), and learn to keep the pressure on them after winning in neutral.

:4ryu:: learn to outspace, zone out your opponent, and bait defensive options.

Note: I included :4ryu: because, while his results and rep aren't very good, he has obvious potential and great theory. Sometime in the future, I expect to see Ryu as a common sight in tournaments. I didn't include :rosalina:because things don't look very bright for her. She loses badly to:4metaknight::4zss::4cloud:and maybe :4bayonetta:, and has random even MU's with characters like :4falcon:and :4myfriends:. With the new DLC characters, and the fact that she loses several important MU's, I think Rosa will drop to lower top 10, possibly even further because she's harder to play than most other top-tiers.

...

Compare that to, say, Melee (still a masterpiece of a game):

:foxmelee::falcomelee::sheikmelee::marthmelee:

These characters have vastly different play styles, but they all share the same general strengths and weaknesses: their neutrals are all powerful to varying degrees (Sheik was noticeably worse here, but still great), but then they all get comboed easily due to their falling speeds and the game's physics, and their recoveries range from mediocre to pitiful. There's definitely more to it, but that's the overall character design of them. Another thing: the reason why low-tiers in Smash 4 are more viable than low-tiers in Melee is precisely because Melee's top-tiers were equipped to handle pretty much any situation.


Don't get me wrong, Melee has an endless level of depth and is a hallmark of game design, but if I were to give one thing to Smash 4, it would be that :4bayonetta::4cloud::4ryu::4diddy::4sheik::4zss::4metaknight: are more varied when it comes to the general layout of their strengths and weaknesses. Because of this, low-tiers have a greater chance at success, because not every top-tier will be able to readily exploit their flaws. Sure, Smash 4 is poorly balanced (admit it guys, there are still plenty of 80-20 and 90-10 MU's, I'm sure, *cough* :4metaknight: vs :4ganondorf: :4samus::4littlemac::4zelda:*cough* rip all *cough*), but it's reassuring to see Ganon the Beast rule Minnesota.


You can't play neutral? :4sheik:good luck.

You don't know how to DI, and can't mix-up DI and landings? :4metaknight::4ryu::4zss::4bayonetta:say hi.

You aren't willing to commit to edge-guards? You can't exploit recoveries? :4cloud:I feel so sorry for you.

You can't adapt? You're alright with letting your opponent do the same thing over and over again? :4diddy:have a good day, sir.


TL;DR :4bayonetta::4cloud::4diddy::4metaknight::4sheik::4ryu::4zss: are the future of Smash 4, and their varied strengths and weaknesses will teach us the importance of all aspects of gameplay, and warn us about the dangers of tunneling down on one specific field.

And most important of all, they are healthy for the evolution of the meta game.
 
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Thinkaman

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I don't think Rosa is going to fall off entirely.

Also, can we drill into what made Danny's Duck Dog have such a good night? I haven't got the chance to see the matches, but am super curious.
 

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> People complain about Cloud and Bayonetta
> Sheik, Diddy and ZSS win every US major in the meantime

:059:
 

Lhivorde

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I don't think Rosa is going to fall off entirely.

Also, can we drill into what made Danny's Duck Dog have such a good night? I haven't got the chance to see the matches, but am super curious.
I was super impressed with his can usage. He placed them such that they covered edge options and gave him confirms at the same time. Before going into any risky situation he would throw out the sheriff, who's bullet saved his life a couple of times.
 

Nobie

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Earth on his ask.fm was still answering questions about how to use Pit just a couple of days ago. He also mentioned that he'd decide who to use on the day of the tournament, so I think he hasn't written Pit off just yet.
 

ReRaze

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Earth on his ask.fm was still answering questions about how to use Pit just a couple of days ago. He also mentioned that he'd decide who to use on the day of the tournament, so I think he hasn't written Pit off just yet.
Earth has an ask.fm? how do I not know of this, do you have a link or something please :p ?
 

Rizen

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I was watching games from Come on and Ban 50 with Shaky's Ness vs Trevonte's Bayo. It looked like Bayo's combos weren't realistically possible to DI. An optimized Bayo looks terrifying seeing how Trev missed several opportunities and still won 1 set vs Shaky then took him to the last stock, last game of GFs.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5n6M_nMn9OMKrhLtzn4WEO-Gww1YxXJ5

A question for those who have played vs Bayo, would you say it's feasible to escape her strings or not? I initially assumed when I played vs her I simply wasn't DIing right.

If Bayo ends up not having a weakness from DIing her ladder, she's easily top 3 imo. Even zero said she could be #1.
 
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Nobie

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I was watching games from Come on and Ban 50 with Shaky's Ness vs Trevonte's Bayo. It looked like Bayo's combos weren't realistically possible to DI. An optimized Bayo looks terrifying seeing how Trev missed several opportunities and still won 1 set vs Shaky then took him to the last stock, last game of GFs.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5n6M_nMn9OMKrhLtzn4WEO-Gww1YxXJ5

A question for those who have played vs Bayo, would you say it's feasible to escape her strings or not? I initially assumed when I played vs her I simply wasn't DIing right.

If Bayo ends up not having a weakness from DIing her ladder, she's easily top 3 imo. Even zero said she could be #1.
I'm not entirely sure about this, but I think character physics play a huge role in her combo potential. Like, Jigglypuff looks hard to combo due to a combination of small size, lightness, and floatiness (but dies early to everything else).
 

Rizen

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I'm not entirely sure about this, but I think character physics play a huge role in her combo potential. Like, Jigglypuff looks hard to combo due to a combination of small size, lightness, and floatiness (but dies early to everything else).
That makes sense. I saw Bayo having trouble full laddering Mewtwo sometimes.
 

Lhivorde

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Was it ever fully investigated whether Greninja can shadow-sneak out of Bayonetta ladders? I seem to remember people talking about it a while back.
 

Nabbitnator

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I was watching games from Come on and Ban 50 with Shaky's Ness vs Trevonte's Bayo. It looked like Bayo's combos weren't realistically possible to DI. An optimized Bayo looks terrifying seeing how Trev missed several opportunities and still won 1 set vs Shaky then took him to the last stock, last game of GFs.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5n6M_nMn9OMKrhLtzn4WEO-Gww1YxXJ5

A question for those who have played vs Bayo, would you say it's feasible to escape her strings or not? I initially assumed when I played vs her I simply wasn't DIing right.

If Bayo ends up not having a weakness from DIing her ladder, she's easily top 3 imo. Even zero said she could be #1.
I believe you can SDI from the ladder but i also think in time bayonetta player's will use alternative combos for damage and probably mix up her combos to get the kills.
 

L9999

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I was watching games from Come on and Ban 50 with Shaky's Ness vs Trevonte's Bayo. It looked like Bayo's combos weren't realistically possible to DI. An optimized Bayo looks terrifying seeing how Trev missed several opportunities and still won 1 set vs Shaky then took him to the last stock, last game of GFs.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5n6M_nMn9OMKrhLtzn4WEO-Gww1YxXJ5

A question for those who have played vs Bayo, would you say it's feasible to escape her strings or not? I initially assumed when I played vs her I simply wasn't DIing right.

If Bayo ends up not having a weakness from DIing her ladder, she's easily top 3 imo. Even zero said she could be #1.
Yet another Bayonetta goes down to Ness. Well, you cannot escape without getting damaged but you can. It's all about how good at SDIng you are, how good are your mixups, and airdodge timings. Shaky in this match got hit by 2 hits of the usual Bayo combo but escaped by what I assume DIing and airdodging.
 

PK Gaming

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You gotta learn the difference between "extraordinarily biased" and "Has time to learn one character inside and out and largely sticks with the character they are comfortable with". I'd absolutely love to try to pick up Sonic, I think he's still not particularly optimized and that the Sonic mains rely on Spin Dash too much instead of foxtrotting and walking. Charizard I managed to play around with a bit back during the 3DS/early Wii U days, still find him very fun to use. Robin is the character I tried to make a dual main with Ike, his playing style just did not mesh with mine at all. Cloud obviously, everyone and their mother tries out in the SSB4 community. Don't have time to do any of that.

Really that whole opening just proved my point. The moment I chime in you attacked me.... kinda like how the moment somebody is "meh" about Pit, Lance steps in. No? Except Lance does the personal attacks less.

As I said in another post: people are going at Corrin's Side B wrong. When I can watch Ryo try out Corrin, or pretty much anybody trying out Corrin, and call borderline every use of the Side B and just watch their opponent run face first into it, people aren't thinking of how to handle it. They aren't used to it. That will change with time, and how strong its considered will go down accordingly.
I actually kind of like you and respect your dedication towards Ike, but no. Nee, non, nein, nem, geen, palibe, niet, no.

There are 2 problems here.

1) You are literally calling me out for doing the exact same thing as you. If backing the character means I'm "bandwagoning" them, then you are without a doubt the biggest member of the Ike bandwagon as well. You're always clearing up perceived misconceptions that people have about Ike, or talking about his strengths, which isn't different from what I've been doing with Corrin. In any case, I disagree with your assertion that I've been doing around "attacking" people for opinions. I didn't respond to your post about Corrin "falling hard" (even though a bluntly disagree), I didn't respond to various people calling the character mediocre initially because those are valid opinions. I've only been responding to unfounded criticisms, Which leads me into point #2...

2) You are aware of Lancer's MO right? His style of posting? Where he goes around making absurd claims about a character he's clearly not familiar with? That's flat out not comparable to what i'm doing. And that's why I was annoyed with your post. You're entitled to your opinion about a character, but I don't appreciate painted under the same brush as him.

And in regards with what you think about Corrin's Side B, I just disagree. Who knows what the future will hold, but I straight up think you're underestimating the character, and I feel confident in the character's future. Only time will tell who's right, but regardless of how it goes down, there won't be any hard feelings on my part.
 
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Jalil

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Was it ever fully investigated whether Greninja can shadow-sneak out of Bayonetta ladders? I seem to remember people talking about it a while back.
It's possible but I don't think its consistent enough to matter. I played against several bayonettas and most of the time just the smoke appears or he doesn't shadow sneak at all.

Edit: lol ignore what i said. Just tested it with my sister.
 
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FullMoon

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Haven't gotten to play many Bayonetta players myself so I'm unsure on how Shadow Sneak interacts with her stuff, but I do remember it working fairly consistently when I tried it.

Dunno, it's something I'd need someone to lab with.
 

Asdioh

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There are 2 problems here.
1. The pointless bickering between you and Lancer and whoever else
2. The fact that your posts are harder to disregard than Radical Larry's
You guys should just take it to PMs, maybe make it a group conversation if need be. Maybe play some Kid Icarus games, Fire Emblem games, mess around with each others' characters in Smash? I don't know, just stop cluttering this POORLY MODDED :mad088: thread, it has enough of that. Please don't respond to this post either, I won't be talking about this again, I'll be talking about video games.
3 frames of clean frames for a move to be able to kill that requires you to be literally right next to people is not threathening, ESPECIALLY in juggling situations. It's impractical to challenge U-airs with N-air, let alone hitting the clean sweetspot. Best he can do is to avoid the U-air entirely and punish back with late hit of N-air.

If I manage to hit with the clean frames of N-air in a juggling situation then I'd be asking my opponent what the heck they were doing lol.
I think you missed his point, which is strange, because you even point it out in your last sentence there. The threat of the move is part of what makes it so good. I don't get hit by Luigi's sweetspot Nair often while juggling him, because I respect it. That's all there is to it.
Also, 3 frame startup is incredible, 3 active frames for a sweetspot is incredible, and the hitbox is deceptively big; I look forward to when his hitbox visualization is released. Your post makes it sound like Luigi's Nair is a bad move? I understand it's not safe while being juggled, because it can be shielded/avoided and punished, but it's still an option that most of the cast doesn't have.
 

bc1910

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Greninja can consistently Shadow Sneak out of her ladders with correct DI, at low, mid and even high percents (up to around 90 I'd say). You need to DI away from Witch Twist so that the first ABK puts you in light hitstun, which you can then SS out of safely by going away from Bayonetta. You can DI in a variety of ways to escape at different points, as well. It's definitely consistent enough to matter.
 
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Jaguar360

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Was it ever fully investigated whether Greninja can shadow-sneak out of Bayonetta ladders? I seem to remember people talking about it a while back.
He definitely can Shadow Sneak out of her Up Bs. DI is still important though; it's not super easy.
 

momochuu

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> People complain about Cloud and Bayonetta
> Sheik, Diddy and ZSS win every US major in the meantime

:059:
Well that's because no one super good is playing bayo or cloud arm. if someone like zero picks up bayo then rip.
 

momochuu

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By "super good" I meant people that were already winning majors in the first place before those characters came out. The people you listed are doing much better than they were before though.
 

~ Gheb ~

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By "super good" I meant people that were already winning majors in the first place before those characters came out. The people you listed are doing much better than they were before though.
Komorikiri has won majors before he picked up Cloud and Bayonetta.

If we count Brawl Salem won Apex 13 and 9B won dozens of majors. You're probably gonna argue that this is not a valid argument but idc, I think it's definitely valid as it clearly shows that these players are capable of doing stuff.

And I hope we can agree that M2K is always a contender to win majors regardless of what smash game he plays. He just hadn't played smash 4 a lot until recently.

:059:
 

HoSmash4

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A more accurate thing to say would be that cloud/Bayonetta metagames aren't anywhere near being optimised which is the scariest thing.
 
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Gunla

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Haven't gotten to play many Bayonetta players myself so I'm unsure on how Shadow Sneak interacts with her stuff, but I do remember it working fairly consistently when I tried it.

Dunno, it's something I'd need someone to lab with.
SSHC is a pretty major factor if you have the timing down, allowing you to escape a lot of her ladder combos and not die. Of course, there's the DI involved as well to properly escape, but all in all, it is something that seriously affects the matchup. Not some advantage but probably another 50:50.
 

NotLiquid

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Komorikiri ... Salem ... M2K ... 9B ...

:059:
Really it's when I see names like these that I start questioning the notion that these new characters are brain dead free rides. It especially crops up mostly in the Bayonetta discussion because she makes some more readily visible waves than Cloud but when I generally look back at the above mentioned players, especially some more notable ones as of late like Tweek and Pink Fresh, players who have had historically admirable performances but had some very eccentric choices of mains, I think top names who have been overly critical about the new cast (there just isn't enough salt canisters available for Ally and his Twitter) need to stop asking whether it has to do with characters selling themselves too high and if it's really the players having sold themselves too short in the past. Not every character is for everyone. M2K in particular gravitated to at least five different characters before he actually decided to not just make Smash 4 a side game for himself and settled on Cloud.

I'd say the new characters have done a well enough job to elevate a specific niche in talent that make the meta evolve in a healthy capacity. More viable contenders, especially on a top level, is great. That goes for both player capacity and character capacity. If the Old Guard can't get behind a character's style that's also perfectly fine since really, everyone gets a shot here. Even the almighty ZeRo admits he's not great at certain characters who perform great in tournaments (Sonic is a notable one from my recollection).
 
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Cassio

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Checking in here bc of the complaining Ive seen of bayo, including from some top level players (which I find hypocritical in some cases tbh). Im reading through the thread but can anyone link me a post or provide a summary of the complaints/responses to bayo?

More importantly can someone give me a rundown of Bayonettas neutral game (offense and defense). I understand bayos a great character but no character has been exceptional without a powerful neutral and at least from what ive seen/read bayos isnt exactly game breaking. Feel free to correct me. If bayo does start doing too well eventually she'll get the ICs treatement but Brawl ICs had the neutral to handle it.
 
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Cassio

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Im critical of the concept "just wait till x level player picks up this character then youll see". Theres some small truth to this, but many characters perform differently at different levels of play, and as the metagame advances some characters grow and others get left behind. Its why we see some characters dominate at low levels but not as much in top, while other characters are invisible at low level but have a hero in top level play.
 

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A more accurate thing to say would be that cloud/Bayonetta metagames aren't anywhere near being optimised which is the scariest thing.
Neither are counterplay strats against these characters so just give it a bit of time.

:059:
 

Asdioh

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This hasn't been posted yet right? "Just hold down and away" sure seems easy...
 
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Ffamran

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The whole character change is interesting as there were players who moved down the tier list instead of up. Players that come to mind are Blue, Eshura, Hitaku, Ito, Keitaro, Mr. E, and Tyrant. Blue, Eshura, Hitaku, Ito, Mr. E, and Tyrant all did fine with their original mains; Blue was a Sonic player, Eshura was a Pit player, Hitaku and Mr. E played Sheik, and Ito and Tyrant were Diddy mains. Keitaro was the only one noticeably struggling with a top tier - at the time -, Diddy, and perhaps a top or high-tier - at the time -, customs Mii Brawler. What they all have in common is that they all downgraded instead of upgrading or side-grading. What's surprising is they either do just as well or even better. Blue dropped from high-tier Sonic to debatably high or mid-tier Mewtwo, Eshura still has Pit, a mid-tier, but plays low-tier Falco often, Hitaku dropped from top tier Sheik to debatably high or mid-tier Mewtwo, Ito and Tyrant dropped from top tier at the time Diddy to high-tier Meta Knight, Mr. E dropped from top tier Sheik - he still pockets her at times? - to debatably mid-tier or low-tier Marth, and the lowest drop would be Keitaro going from top tier at the time Diddy to low-tier Falco.

People can't click with any or every characters and it certainly doesn't help if you also don't like the character. If people really, really only cared about results and were capable of playing any and every character, then the only characters that would be used in Smash 4 both competitively and even "casually" would be Bayonetta, Cloud, Rosalina & Luma, Sheik, and ZSS. No Mario, no Luigi, no Pit, no Ike, no Captain Falcon, no Villager, no Samus, no Pikachu, no Greninja, no Lucina, no Zelda, and no Fox. Even that list is a stretch and it really should be Sheik-only. Fortunately, we're not heartless, calculating monsters because that would be really freaking boring. What's pools? Sheik vs. Sheik. What's grand finals? Sheik vs. Sheik. What are we going to play after school? Sheik vs. Sheik. Hey, random corporate employee, want to play Smash 4? Yeah, Sheik vs. Sheik, right? Hell yeah.
 
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