Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Trunks159]

The whole character change is interesting as there were players who moved down the tier list instead of up. Players that come to mind are Blue, Eshura, Hitaku, Ito, Keitaro, Mr. E, and Tyrant. Blue, Eshura, Hitaku, Ito, Mr. E, and Tyrant all did fine with their original mains; Blue was a Sonic player, Eshura was a Pit player, Hitaku and Mr. E played Sheik, and Ito and Tyrant were Diddy mains. Keitaro was the only one noticeably struggling with a top tier - at the time -, Diddy, and perhaps a top or high-tier - at the time -, customs Mii Brawler. What they all have in common is that they all downgraded instead of upgrading or side-grading. What's surprising is they either do just as well or even better. Blue dropped from high-tier Sonic to debatably high or mid-tier Mewtwo, Eshura still has Pit, a mid-tier, but plays low-tier Falco often, Hitaku dropped from top tier Sheik to debatably high or mid-tier Mewtwo, Ito and Tyrant dropped from top tier at the time Diddy to high-tier Meta Knight, Mr. E dropped from top tier Sheik - he still pockets her at times? - to debatably mid-tier or low-tier Marth, and the lowest drop would be Keitaro going from top tier at the time Diddy to low-tier Falco.

People can't click with any or every characters and it certainly doesn't help if you also don't like the character. If people really, really only cared about results and were capable of playing any and every character, then the only characters that would be used in Smash 4 both competitively and even "casually" would be Bayonetta, Cloud, Rosalina & Luma, Sheik, and ZSS. No Mario, no Luigi, no Pit, no Ike, no Captain Falcon, no Villager, no Samus, no Pikachu, no Greninja, no Lucina, no Zelda, and no Fox. Even that list is a stretch and it really should be Sheik-only. Fortunately, we're not heartless, calculating monsters because that would be really freaking boring. What's pools? Sheik vs. Sheik. What's grand finals? Sheik vs. Sheik. What are we going to play after school? Sheik vs. Sheik. Hey, random corporate employee, want to play Smash 4? Yeah, Sheik vs. Sheik, right? Hell yeah.

To be fair, Sonic got nerfed and Mewtwo got buffed, Falco got buffed, Marth got buffed, Metaknight got slightly buffed, Diddy got nerfed.

 

[BananaBake]

has this thread become a Bayonetta complaint thread?

Not necessarily a complaint thread, more just people talking about her and why we should STOP complaining

 

[Emblem Lord]

What matters is if the char is viable enough to do damage at a major. After that its up to your own synergy.

The only questionable character is Falco.

But thats just Richard being a weirdo and letting years of Falco play influence his decisions.

 

[Ghostbone]

A question for those who have played vs Bayo, would you say it's feasible to escape her strings or not? I initially assumed when I played vs her I simply wasn't DIing right.

She essentially has the follow-ups to cover every DI option.

And up-b > side-b > up-b > uair is true at certain %s regardless of DI (timing and when you use your DJ is different depending on DI and character though)
Up-b > side-b > up-b > side-b is also true regardless of DI, but I'm fairly sure every character can DI the last side-b so uair doesn't connect. Bayo's may be able to do fair1 > side-b > uair at the end to catch that DI (as the opponent will start from a lower position) but I'm not entirely sure about that.

There are also specific circumstances she can do stuff like up-b > dj divekick and up-b > side-b > divekick death combos, the first especially works if they DI down and away (so no that isn't a ubiquitous DI option like certain people claim)

This hasn't been posted yet right? "Just hold down and away" sure seems easy...

Idk what this vid is supposed to be showing.

None of these DIs actually prevent bayo follow-ups, maybe it makes it more likely for her to miss if she's just a super cookie cutter bayo but most of the adjustments to the DI shown are very simple (like just using b-reverse up-b or fair 1 lol), or the DI only works at certain %s (which is useful to know but doesn't mean the combo never works)

 

[DanGR]

This hasn't been posted yet right? "Just hold down and away" sure seems easy...

He's not even doing the combos correctly.

edit: Ninja'd

 

[LancerStaff]

...That being said, it's only his second tournament with Corrin. IMO drowning in pools with a 5-day old character means less than making top 4 with one that's been out for over a month. Premature to speculate on how these compare to his normal Pit results.

And playing patient didn't stop pre-patch Luigi from being dumb. This statement reminds me of the guy in the last thread who said everyone was just playing against Toon Link wrong... and then Hyuga, Sigma, and Hayato proceeded to rack up great enough results to make people consider TL a possible contender for top 20. Who knows what the future may hold.

Pretty sure it's his third or fourth...

It's pretty obvious most people don't know what they're doing against Corrin, though. As a counterpoint to the TL example, there's Ryu who we've had people's opinions fall a ways because his results slowed down and people realized that you should play defense against him.

Hoo boy

Forgot what I said about Earth, as it was a total misstep on my part. Regardless, his results wasn't the crux of my argument to begin with. He's very clearly not the only one doing well with Corrin.

The meat of my post was mostly referring to all of those instances where you say things like "I can't think of a reason to use Corrin over Pit" and "people are losing to Corrin because they're trying to bumrush him instead of playing patient and mean it. Like, where do these assumptions come from? It's completely unfounded. Really, instead of calling me out for not backing up my claims, why don't you practice what you preach? But fine, i'll humor you. What Corrin has over Pit is:

-Better damage
-Better KO options
-A better neutral
-Better combo ability
-Better tools to deal higher tier characters

And all of these culminate in a superior character. And when you predictably try to argue why what I've said isn't the case, i'll pick apart your counterargument piece by piece, and actually supply video evidence to back up my claims.

When did I ever say that. And for that matter, what are you even talking about?

Corrin's average damage per hit isn't significantly higher then Pit's, and even then it depends on how you interpret certain factors like how many tippers you're going to land and ignores how matches actually play out.

Both characters have a lot of safe late kill options and unsafe early kill options. I find Pit's kill options to be much more effective for a bunch of different reasons... Pit's Fthrow is reasonable to land on the ledge and kills much faster then Corrin's throws as a result. The sweetspots on Pit's attacks also last the entire duration of the attack, meaning they're much better at trapping and easier to land. Pit's U and Fsmashes don't have sourspots. And to top it off, Pit's Uair and Fair are also late kill moves. Landing Uair is inevitable, and Fair's one of his primary spacing tools. (Fair's growth is 180, Uair's is a whopping 270.) Corrin I don't think has any low commitment and easy to land kill moves like this, though if he does I'd like to see 'em.

Corrin can't force an early kill against a smart player, meanwhile Pit can safely put an opponent offstage and can gimp most characters. Corrin's edgeguarding isn't anywhere as good as Pit's and doesn't have near as many ways to get an opponent offstage.

Corrin's neutral isn't better then Pit's. Corrin can't projectile camp, has much worse mobility overall, his grabs have equal or worse range then Pit's and are slower, and on the ground his safer moves are short-ranged. To me Corrin's lack of grounded range is a pretty big weakness, and remember his safety numbers aren't even that much better then Pit's. Reminds me of Roy.

Pit can combo out of a throw. Actually, all of them. Corrin's combos from normals aren't even that better then Pit's. We've been over this...

You keep talking like Corrin has anything leagues ahead of Pit... He doesn't. It's arguable that he isn't better overall at anything over Pit. Meanwhile Pit has a gigantic and clear advantage over Corrin in his disadvantage state.

"Better tools to deal with high tiers?" I don't see how you're proving that.

When I said Corrin's mobility was bad I remember you saying his side B was a movement option.

While on the subject of Corrin, I'm wondering how many people realize you can angle a shield forwards so a weaker hit can hit the shield and make it less safe, and potentially unsafe.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Keep in mind Bayo can just reverse up b as well causing you to DI INTO HER and ensuring a quick demise.

So yeah..not that easy guys, sorry.

 

[L9999]

What matters is if the char is viable enough to do damage at a major. After that its up to your own synergy.

The only questionable character is Falco.

But thats just Richard being a weirdo and letting years of Falco play influence his decisions.

On the subject of Falco, how does he keeps his current ranking in the tier list? are obviously much better than him, have accomplished more in their lives, and even have done more than Falco. Whats besides theory? Who even plays Falco?

 

[Wintermelon43]

On the subject of Falco, how does he keeps his currently ranking in the tier list? are obviously much better than him, have accomplished more in their lives, and even have done more than Falco. Whats besides theory? Who even plays Falco?

Keitaro.

Otherwise no one. It's mainly theory to keep him him above many of the listed characters

 

[Ghostbone]

Pretty sure it's his third or fourth...

It's pretty obvious most people don't know what they're doing against Corrin, though. As a counterpoint to the TL example, there's Ryu who we've had people's opinions fall a ways because his results slowed down and people realized that you should play defense against him.



Corrin's average damage per hit isn't significantly higher then Pit's, and even then it depends on how you interpret certain factors like how many tippers you're going to land and ignores how matches actually play out.

Both characters have a lot of safe late kill options and unsafe early kill options. I find Pit's kill options to be much more effective for a bunch of different reasons... Pit's Fthrow is reasonable to land on the ledge and kills much faster then Corrin's throws as a result. The sweetspots on Pit's attacks also last the entire duration of the attack, meaning they're much better at trapping and easier to land. Pit's U and Fsmashes don't have sourspots. And to top it off, Pit's Uair and Fair are also late kill moves. Landing Uair is inevitable, and Fair's one of his primary spacing tools. (Fair's growth is 180, Uair's is a whopping 270.) Corrin I don't think has any low commitment and easy to land kill moves like this, though if he does I'd like to see 'em.

Corrin can't force an early kill against a smart player, meanwhile Pit can safely put an opponent offstage and can gimp most characters. Corrin's edgeguarding isn't anywhere as good as Pit's and doesn't have near as many ways to get an opponent offstage.

Corrin's neutral isn't better then Pit's. Corrin can't projectile camp, has much worse mobility overall, his grabs have equal or worse range then Pit's and are slower, and on the ground his safer moves are short-ranged. To me Corrin's lack of grounded range is a pretty big weakness, and remember his safety numbers aren't even that much better then Pit's. Reminds me of Roy.

Pit can combo out of a throw. Actually, all of them. Corrin's combos from normals aren't even that better then Pit's. We've been over this...

You keep talking like Corrin has anything leagues ahead of Pit... He doesn't. It's arguable that he isn't better overall at anything over Pit. Meanwhile Pit has a gigantic and clear advantage over Corrin in his disadvantage state.

"Better tools to deal with high tiers?" I don't see how you're proving that.

When I said Corrin's mobility was bad I remember you saying his side B was a movement option.

While on the subject of Corrin, I'm wondering how many people realize you can angle a shield forwards so a weaker hit can hit the shield and make it less safe, and potentially unsafe.

You're comparing one aspect of corrin's moves to one aspect of Pit's moves in a vacuum (seriously, Pit's f-smash doesn't have a sourspot so it's better? when it's much less safe and has far less range and kills way later than Corrin's? lmao), and just saying things that are plain false (like saying Corrin has worse mobility when her air speed, fall speed and walk speed are all higher, lmao).

Neutral isn't about projectile spam, and Pit's neutral isn't all about arrows. Corrin's neutral is very strong because of threatening options like fair and d-tilt, with a really nice foxtrot and ability to punish everything with a frame 7 19% move that's safe on whiff/shield.
Corrin's disadvantage is way better than Pit's as well because her fall speed is better so she gets to the ground faster, she has options like dair that beats every uair in the game, and nair which covers a massive circle all around her lol. Pit's multiple double jumps are good but don't match what Corrin has.

Corrin's sword has way bigger disjoint than any of Pit's moves. Pit's f-throw at the ledge doesn't actually kill much earlier than Corrin's kill throw, and I could make a similar point that you'd prefer Corrin's u-throw because you can grab them on a platform. Overall vertical kill options are more reliable than horizontal options and thus Corrin's kill throw is way way better than Pits lol.

You're saying that Corrin has an issue with lack of grounded range? Because SH fair, instant side-b, f-smash, a threatening dash > shield because it's so quick aren't good options from the ground with high range?

I notice it's all the Pit and Ike players who keep underrating Corrin, tbh I think you're all in denial and can't admit that Corrin does basically everything your characters does but better lol.

 

[ARISTOS]

whole thing is essentially playing tug-o-DI with you.

You guess right and she doesn't adapt to your DI? You survive

Guess wrong and that's your stock.

 

[san.]

You're comparing one aspect of corrin's moves to one aspect of Pit's moves in a vacuum (seriously, Pit's f-smash doesn't have a sourspot so it's better? when it's much less safe and has far less range and kills way later than Corrin's? lmao), and just saying things that are plain false (like saying Corrin has worse mobility when her air speed, fall speed and walk speed are all higher, lmao).

Neutral isn't about projectile spam, and Pit's neutral isn't all about arrows. Corrin's neutral is very strong because of threatening options like fair and d-tilt, with a really nice foxtrot and ability to punish everything with a frame 7 19% move that's safe on whiff/shield.
Corrin's disadvantage is way better than Pit's as well because her fall speed is better so she gets to the ground faster, she has options like dair that beats every uair in the game, and nair which covers a massive circle all around her lol. Pit's multiple double jumps are good but don't match what Corrin has.

Corrin's sword has way bigger disjoint than any of Pit's moves. Pit's f-throw at the ledge doesn't actually kill much earlier than Corrin's kill throw, and I could make a similar point that you'd prefer Corrin's u-throw because you can grab them on a platform. Overall vertical kill options are more reliable than horizontal options and thus Corrin's kill throw is way way better than Pits lol.

You're saying that Corrin has an issue with lack of grounded range? Because SH fair, instant side-b, f-smash, a threatening dash > shield because it's so quick aren't good options from the ground with high range?

I notice it's all the Pit and Ike players who keep underrating Corrin, tbh I think you're all in denial and can't admit that Corrin does basically everything your characters does but better lol.

I was with you until the last part. Ike players love Corrin, and they also play quite a bit differently to be compared that easily.

 

[momochuu]

that video is fraudulent.

if you hold down and away she will just do side b into dive kick.

she has an option to cover every DI, and DIing wrong or lazily will kill you earlier than the bayo player intended.

 

[Asdioh]

So now false information is spreading, I knew it was too good to be true!
Welp

 

[HFlash]

So are the options just down left or down right? Or does it change? Does it differ for fast fallers vs. floaties and light weights vs. heavyweights?

 

[momochuu]

So are the options just down left or down right? Or does it change? Does it differ for fast fallers vs. floaties and light weights vs. heavyweights?

you can DI in any direction but:

a. you won't really go anywhere and she will still hit you
b. she can read you and still follow you (you try to DI left and she just does fair 1 into up b, etc)
c. you die (DI up on witch twist)

 

[Ulevo]

We've come a long way since release and people still do not know how to properly DI Meta Knight's follow ups so they do not die at fraudulent percents. It perplexes me that people somehow definitely know Bayonetta is too good when they have no idea how she works, particularly without character specific labbing.

 

[Fatmanonice]

There's been more people complaining about Cloud than Bayo, honestly. It's totally understandable too because I compare Bayo to Rosa, someone who's underwhelming from a basic standpoint but really good when people get her learning curve down. Neither Bayo or Rosa are super good upfront and both don't have a lot of players compared to other high tier characters like Sheik and Mario. Cloud is the total opposite. Easy to learn with his strengths significantly overshadowing his weaknesses and played by a buttload of people because of this. He's not the absolute best character in the game but he does by far have the shortest "Warrior's Path", so to speak. Cloud is to high level players as Little Mac is to entry level players.

 

[Flux0r]

We've come a long way since release and people still do not know how to properly DI Meta Knight's follow ups so they do not die at fraudulent percents. It perplexes me that people somehow definitely know Bayonetta is too good when they have no idea how she works, particularly without character specific labbing.

People are simply lazy.

They are not interested in putting effort into analyzing and labbing stuff like this.

80% don't even attend offline tourneys. Autopilot does the job most of the time.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Replying to multiple discussions.

Bayonetta DI: you can cover every option at 50-60% on shiek and still get a kill with the BnB combo. (As far as I have tested.)
Up B-Side B cannot be avoided, after their, is when it gets tricky. If the opponent DI's any direction besides down, you can JC the first side B to get a fast twist into Side B afterwards. This JC allows for a really easy Up B after, and if they DI in, then another Side B is possible.

If they DI down, then an ABK allows you to get a DABK after, into Twist into Uair.

Also, you can make the Uair after the second twist true combo, by moving forward and mediocre DI on your opponents part. Might have missed some options, and this isn't a complete write up.

80% of the time, there is always an option.

Mewtwo and other lower characters: duck hunt is a good character, after tons of hours of labbing, extensive MU knowledge of every character you fight. MU inexperience on your opponents part. Practice. And insane reaction speeds and fundamentals. All this is negated by your opponent having two or three of these things. DHD is good, he just requires a lot more work, for less reward.

Also, Mewtwo isn't high tier, low high tier maybe, but not next to the likes of ROB, Pit and Luigi. He has good tools, but in the end, is still hampered by his size and weight. He has great tools and a lot of things in his favor, but is still a glass cannon.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

I notice it's all the Pit and Ike players who keep underrating Corrin, tbh I think you're all in denial and can't admit that Corrin does basically everything your characters does but better lol.

I wouldn't say Corrin does everything that Ike does but better for example Ike is better at having less representation than Corrin even though he's been in the game for way longer but yeah, almost every other Ike main I know also uses Corrin. We're definitely not underrating him/her at all.

 

[Charoite]

One more interesting note:
Mew2king was beating at Shuffle VIII by both ito and zinnoto pretty convincing, zinnoto was not afraid of attacking cloud with limit break with banana at all.

 

[Fatmanonice]

On the topic of laziness, stage counterpicking is super lazy in this game, just like it was in Brawl. Most people just do Smashville because they assume it's the most fair stage for the entire cast. Some things just kind of annoy me too like how Castle Siege is so often readily dismissed in tournaments despite chain grabs no longer being a thing and how it's actually a pretty good stage for a lot of characters.

 

[L9999]

On the topic of laziness, stage counterpicking is super lazy in this game, just like it was in Brawl. Most people just do Smashville because they assume it's the most fair stage for the entire cast. Some things just kind of annoy me too like how Castle Siege is so often readily dismissed in tournaments despite chain grabs no longer being a thing and how it's actually a pretty good stage for a lot of characters.

Castle Siege is super jank with characters like Falcon killing you at low % with his slide grab, runaway characters get screwed over, and characters with multiple jumps can still camp you out. (aka MK again). The transitions can screw you over too. This stage should stay banned.

 

[HFlash]

you can DI in any direction but:

a. you won't really go anywhere and she will still hit you
b. she can read you and still follow you (you try to DI left and she just does fair 1 into up b, etc)
c. you die (DI up on witch twist)

So in short, you are saying that there isn't much counterplay to getting out of Bayo's step ladder combo? Seems like Mr. R in glitch was somehow avoiding getting combo'd extensively by Pink Fresh. Though, maybe he was dropping combos because he was nervous?

 

[momochuu]

So in short, you are saying that there isn't much counterplay to getting out of Bayo's step ladder combo? Seems like Mr. R in glitch was somehow avoiding getting combo'd extensively by Pink Fresh. Though, maybe he was dropping combos because he was nervous?

the counter play is to trick the bayo with good DI. my point was just that there's no end all be all way to get out of her stuff like that video suggested. just don't be predictable in your DI.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Castle Siege is super jank with characters like Falcon killing you at low % with his slide grab, and characters with multiple jumps can still camp you out. (aka MK again). The transitions can screw you over too. This stage should stay banned.

Then just ban the stages when counterpicking. The tournaments I go to allow the winner of the first match to ban two stages when their opponent picks a counterpick. My thoughts are why take away options? The transitions are predictable and there's no hazards. If stages like Halberd and Delfino are okay with their jank options, I don't see why Castle Siege isn't.

 

[Charoite]

Well more that the players doesn't want to stages that promotes "jank", but then you see them taking cloud to smashville, knowing that cloud gains limit break for free in the platform, o well.

Players counter pick or chose stages that makes them more comfortable , and not necessary because these stages make the opponent character to perform worse.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Aren't Halberd and Delfino banned at most tourneys, anyway? At least that's what I'm assuming, since I rarely even see them anymore.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Well more that the players doesn't want to stages that promotes "jank", but then you see them taking cloud to smashville, knowing that cloud gains limit break for free in the platform, o well.

Freakin' this. I think I internally Howie scream everytime I see someone casually take Sheik or Cloud to Smashville or Town and City.

Cereal Bawks : I think it's a TA's choice kind of thing for Halberd.

 

[C0rvus]

I've always played in events with conservative stage lists. Can't say I mind. The more I play on stages like Delfino the more I am glad I don't have to outplay the stage AND my opponent in tournament.

 

[juddy96]

Ito won Shuffle VIII in Columbus which had 128 players. He beat Zinoto in WSF, M2K in WF, and Zinoto again in grands.

 

[Charoite]

I've always played in events with conservative stage lists. Can't say I mind. The more I play on stages like Delfino the more I am glad I don't have to outplay the stage AND my opponent in tournament.

Is not like your opponent doesn't need to outplay you and the stage, it comes both ways.

 

[LancerStaff]

You're comparing one aspect of corrin's moves to one aspect of Pit's moves in a vacuum (seriously, Pit's f-smash doesn't have a sourspot so it's better? when it's much less safe and has far less range and kills way later than Corrin's? lmao), and just saying things that are plain false (like saying Corrin has worse mobility when her air speed, fall speed and walk speed are all higher, lmao).

Neutral isn't about projectile spam, and Pit's neutral isn't all about arrows. Corrin's neutral is very strong because of threatening options like fair and d-tilt, with a really nice foxtrot and ability to punish everything with a frame 7 19% move that's safe on whiff/shield.
Corrin's disadvantage is way better than Pit's as well because her fall speed is better so she gets to the ground faster, she has options like dair that beats every uair in the game, and nair which covers a massive circle all around her lol. Pit's multiple double jumps are good but don't match what Corrin has.

Corrin's sword has way bigger disjoint than any of Pit's moves. Pit's f-throw at the ledge doesn't actually kill much earlier than Corrin's kill throw, and I could make a similar point that you'd prefer Corrin's u-throw because you can grab them on a platform. Overall vertical kill options are more reliable than horizontal options and thus Corrin's kill throw is way way better than Pits lol.

You're saying that Corrin has an issue with lack of grounded range? Because SH fair, instant side-b, f-smash, a threatening dash > shield because it's so quick aren't good options from the ground with high range?

I notice it's all the Pit and Ike players who keep underrating Corrin, tbh I think you're all in denial and can't admit that Corrin does basically everything your characters does but better lol.

I didn't compare Pit's Fsmash to Corrin's. Mostly it was a comparison between their Usmashes.

Pit has better walking acceleration. Waaaay better. Way better air acceleration too. He's effectively faster in those areas. Like, really, Corrin's max walking speed is irrelevant because you need to walk across the whole stage to ever reach it.

Pit kills even faster on a platform with Uthrow and Dthrow > Uair.

Corrin doesn't have more disjoint then Pit outside of smashes. Mostly it's less because, again, his grounded moves lack range. Really, Pit having less disjoint then other swordsmen is a myth. Go sit down and see for yourself in training.

Grounded moves come out faster then aerial moves, and Corrin's longer ranged moves aren't remotely safe to just throw out.

Corrin Dair loses to tons of things lmao. It's easy to challenge just by going at an angle, not to mention it's hilariously punishable on whiff. Corrin's higher fall speed and gravity make him combo food, while Pit's stats keep him out of combos. Pit has a f4 Nair that hits all around him immediately to escape combos with, Corrin has a f6 Nair that doesn't hit below until at least f14. Pit's better air acceleration is also a gigantic factor in disadvantage. Like, really? Pit's disadvantage worse then Corrin's? That's a blatant lie. You can tell Pit's is better just by watching tournament footage.

 

[C0rvus]

Is not like your opponent doesn't need to outplay you and the stage, it comes both ways.

Yeah but it's an annoying aspect of the game that can be left out. But I like Mario Sunshine too much to stop playing on that stage

 

[Djent]

Ito won Shuffle VIII in Columbus which had 128 players. He beat Zinoto in WSF, M2K in WF, and Zinoto again in grands.

Ito is now up 3-0 in sets vs. Zinoto. But we all know Diddy cleanly beats MK, just as we all know ZSS does the same.

 

[thehard]

Do or DI top 32 is starting at 7pm EST (40 minutesish) and it's stacked: Nairo, Dabuz, ANTi, 6WX, Tweek, Hyuga, Pugwest, Mr. E all there.

http://www.hitbox.tv/hitboxarena/chat
https://smash.gg/tournament/do-or-di/brackets/11043/3788/12335
Look at those winners side matches.

 

[Djent]

I also wanted to mention that Hyuga/ANTi beat Dabuz/Nairo in doubles (sadly, I don't think it was streamed). Hyuga also finished top 8 at Genesis and 1st in TX with Dabuz as his teammate. We all know how good at doubles ANTi is, but Hyuga is looking like an incredible partner as well.

 

[warionumbah2]

Leo also won a regional using MK,Cloud and Marth. I think he went Marth through most of the tournament again, he definitely used Marth to take GFs.

Serge beat Leos MK with his Marth before losing the Marth ditto and switching to Roy only to lose again. Marth vs Roy is such a good MU for Marth. Serge is definitely on the same level as Leo.

This is the 2nd time Leo used alot of Marth at a regional. Hope he shows off his Marth more instead of Cloud.

 

[Megamang]

Is not like your opponent doesn't need to outplay you and the stage, it comes both ways.

Its not that simple. Some characters get random tremendous advantages, such as ZSS at Delfino. The stage changes already favor a more mobile character, then you get random 5 second intervals where suddenly a grab is a free kill. Playing against a player who is willing to time you out also makes more 'liberal' stage lists frustrating. Castle Siege comes to mind here. When im fighting a running sonic, transformation 2 comes along and its like 'oh, there goes a huge chunk of my time with little counterplay', not to mention the entire stage is decent for running.

Considering there are already good stages to ban in every MU, saying 'just ban it' is silly because then you lose your ban for free. So, then Cloud gets either Delfino or Smashville, or Duck Hunt? Yay...

It'd be one thing if it promoted diversity, but as it is the best characters tend to have traits that are already amazingly powerful, and just become downright stupid on certain stages. This is smash in general due to the massive mobility we have, think back to Melee fox ruining any stage with a circle.


EDIT: @ Hyuga stuff. I can imagine a character like Tink being freakin amazing in doubles. A confirming projectile is great, because someone skilled like Hyuga can survey situations and know when to chuck a projectile into his teammates battle as well. My doubles partner plays corrin, and trust me when I say nothing is more relieving than a random projectile flying in and giving you a free confirm. Also, Tink has problems (relatively speaking) with defensive and slow players willing to patiently powershield everything and walk to the battle. but this is much harder to consistently utilize in doubles.

Tldr: I'd imagine hyuga, and any mobile character with projectiles that can confirm for you, are incredible partners.

The team dynamic is a very interesting one, where you have to determine whether to double down on strengths, or try and cover weaknesses. Or pick Cloud.