Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[meleebrawler]

I think in real life a guy with a 3 feet long sword would pretty brutally murder a little chimpanzee*....
The mad world of smash

*Spider monkey.

In real life a guy could hardly even swing a 3-foot sword, let alone strike a little monkey with it.

 

[Trifroze]

Dabuz showing the difference in ZSS' neutral when you don't fall for gimmicks like jab to grab and when you don't try to shieldgrab her nairs and get jabbed every time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Djent]

Dabuz makes it look like Rosa just flat-out wins neutral against ZSS.

 

[NairWizard]

That's because she does. Rosa's neutral is top 5, ZSS' definitely isn't.

 

[Shaya]

Nairo started tilting during that first game and losing first stock with a sizable lead second game cemented it.
Not even sure how to see the Loser's finals right now.

Dabuz has the timing for getting in with shields amazingly.
A lot of neutral airs were punished, hitting Luma way too close.
Zairs were getting anticipated hard and punished too.

 

[NairWizard]

Speaking of neutral (because this thread could use more of that), Anti vs. Hyuga was an amazing display of adjustment in neutral. In their first set, which went 3-0 in Hyuga's favor, Anti was letting go of shield a lot and getting hit by bombs into confirms. Void apparently gave him some advice to stay in shield for longer/more adamantly, and doing so resulted in a 3-0 comeback in the losers bracket. Shows a gaping weakness in Toon Link's neutral game. No matter how much awesome stuff he has, (smart use of) shielding is indeed a problem for a tether+projectile based character.

Also, make note of how Anti's Sheik prefers to run against Nairo's ZSS rather than walk or jump. Sometimes, it's more important to stay on top of someone/get into position quickly than it is to space perfectly.

 

[Megamang]

Nairo just constantly retreating from Anti. Perhaps that is the way to play the MU, but the jab-grab attempts weren't working, the ad-libbed combos weren't working, and his gameplan just wasn't working. He didn't look very good in my opinion, but at the same time I do know that ZSS looks unbreakable when she is on top, and pretty sad when she isn't.

I still think Nairo has a lot of room to expand on the ground game, we see top players punishing the ever-more-commital SH game that made him amazing. Still a great player, but everyone else is getting great, faster. Dabuz looks like he knows him too.

I am a huge fan and have a lot of respect for the man, so I really hope to see Nairo back on top soon. But, the games didn't feel like 'what could he have done' as I often think when seeing other characters lose to shiek, it looked more like 'why is he doing that'.

The wrong way d-smash/jab/grabs happens to me when breaking in a new controller. Not trying to john for the guy, but that looked a lot like my games with a day old controller. Any word about this on twitter?

NairWizard giving me something to talk about while I post, nice!

I noticed what you said, that Anti prefers to run in neutral. I agree, it is important to stay on top of your opponent, especially when they can outrange you, and especially when your character is just as safe when spacing OK. Both of these apply to ZSS, who outranges shiek, and who has a below-average shield punish game when you can escape boost kick, due to having a tether.

What could Nairo have done better? I'd like to see more development of ground game from high level ZSS. I know the reward isn't as high, but when someone is on you like that, a powershield into tilt is something very nice to save you. That said, shiek's fair covers that pretty well, so its tough... but that means Anti has to space more conservatively, giving you mixups.

Anti's nair coverage is on another level, so many people airdodging and just getting hit anyways.

 

[thehard]

ANTi's Sheik is broken, holy

He completely overwhelmed Nairo on a level I've never seen before

 

[Trifroze]

Anti played the matchup so well, avoided nearly every grab (could've even been all of them) and powershielded most falling aerials Nairo threw out with ZSS. Didn't go for any unnecessary airdodges either.

 

[NairWizard]

Only word on twitter seems to be that Nairo is considering using a non-ZSS character for Sheik.

https://twitter.com/Liquid_Nairo/status/709212816058806272?lang=en


and that he considered Rosalina difficult for ZSS too


But, may just be Nairo on tilt, nothing definitive. Definitely the most interesting set of finals I've seen in quite some time, though.

 

[Megamang]

Well, we now see Anti opting for Rosalina, but playing the way I envisioned to be better vs Rosalina. Nairo likes going in, but Rosa and especially Dabuz is just too good at slapping that away. Anti played from afar and tried to poke holes in the wall, which I think is better... But alas, still no.

Nairo pulling out the good doctor for pika tells me his shiek CP could be nearly anyone. Of course, there aren't that many characters that work for a shiek CP, so we shall see. I just really, really hope it isn't shiek.

Dabuz showing us that time in the lab, optimism, and focus pay off in spades.

 

[Trunks159]

Sonic's Up Smash went from being one the strongest to weaker than Falco's current Up Smash, but he remains pretty intact, Meta Knight's changes to me were not buffs, but fixes to poor game development. If Melee had patches and they fixed Roy's hitboxes, he'd be better, but not that much better. It's a similar case to Meta Knight except his hitboxes were that bad at times. To me, those were all trivial changes as either they didn't really do much (Sonic) or they should have been like that from the beginning (Meta Knight's hitbox fixes).

The most major changes would go to Diddy, Marth, and Mewtwo: Diddy through a nerf to his do everything Uair and while D-throw was nerfed, he had U-throw since launch to do the same setup. Diddy pretty much dropped from top to high-tier which could be said for Luigi as well, but Luigi was kind of a volatile high-tier. Lucina and Marth solidified their identities as spacing characters who are actually getting rewarded for their hits. While you could say this is similar to Meta Knight's situation, it's kind of different since their hitboxes weren't borked, but they were under-tuned. Mewtwo's buffs moved him up from low-mid to solid mid and potentially high-tier. He went from being one of the faster characters on the ground to one of the fastest characters.

Falco's changes were both what should have been: Up Smash's consistency, hitbox fix, and I-frames and Fair's landing lag reduction - Seriously, why was it 32 frames of landing lag in the first place i.e. Brawl?; balancing: air acceleration and air speed buffs making him strictly not just slower than Fox in every way; pure buffs: Up Smash's knockback increase, Nair gaining auto-link angles, Fair's lower startup and faster hit rate, and Dair's spike staying out for 1 more frame; questionable changes: Uair being faster, but weaker as a result when Bayonetta and ZSS's all do less damage, but have higher knockback and their vertical setups are more reliable and even before the change, Uair didn't really kill that early unless Falco was right next to the blast zone; and trivial buffs: jab 2 to rapid jab having 1 less frame to transition, but it still doesn't connect properly while Fox's gains a phantom hit and Down Smash gaining 2 more growth which still doesn't change that it's the strongest splits Down Smash for no reason at all as Fox's is 1 frame faster, but weaker and has higher recovery and Sonic's is 5 frames slower, but also weaker and has higher recovery like Fox's. You can thank the developers for messing with Sonic's Down Smash when his Brawl one was fine and the same goes with Wario's Side Smash. Basically, Falco's a mixed bag of what should have been and pure buffs that frankly, were trivial since they buffed things Falco already did well at: close-range game when his biggest weakness: long-range and mid-range stays poor and gets worse as other characters are buffed in those areas: Fox, Greninja, and Robin or are introduced into the game: Bayonetta, Cloud, Lucas, and Ryu.

I still stand by the idea that the patches only significantly buffed Greninja, Ike, Lucina, Marth, Mewtwo, and Robin with Bowser, Dark Pit - holy hell, Electroshock Arm - and DK gaining niche things that really reward them, but don't really much to fix other stuff for them like hitbox problems for some of DK's moves or their issues with neutral and disadvantage - Bowser 8 frame jump why? - and everyone else gaining trivial changes or what should have been changes, fixes, like Meta Knight and Zelda. On the flipside, the only characters to be significantly nerfed would be Diddy, Fox, Greninja, Luigi, and Rosalina & Luma. In most cases, those were removals or changes to over-tuned options. Everyone else got trivial changes.


I'd argue that in a results-based reasoning, all of them would be questionable, but in a "human-based" reasoning, none of them aren't... except Keitaro dropping everyone for Falco. At least Eshura kept his Pit...

Did Keitaro even play Falco in Melee (and PM)? If he didn't and he only played Falco in Brawl and Smash 4, that's not really that long. Then again, it's Keitaro, so...


He's not. The only way Falco will keep his place on the tier list is if people's skills degrade and that's not going to happen. He doesn't have theory; he doesn't have any stellar strategies (Wii Fit Trainer), insane kill confirms, setups, or combos (Dr. Mario, Little Mac, Lucina, Marth, Mewtwo, Samus), wacky stuff he has (Palutena) or can pull off like whatever setups Duck Hunt and PAC-MAN pull off, or being a (fraud of a) special snowflake (Shulk). His stats themselves go against him unlike Triple D being super-heavy, so even if he gets bodied, he's going to live and at low- to mid-level play, not being able to kill becomes that much harder. Falco is as mundane as you can get out of a character and all of his niches: fast, high-damaging combos and footsie gameplay and aerial combat and edgeguarding, were all taken by Ryu and Bayonetta, respectively. That just leaves him with a "niche" that all characters inherently have: fundamental play. He's just a Street Fighter character without the Street Fighter staples of special cancels and links in a Smash game; he's a proto-Ryu. Falco has less of a niche than Zelda who is argued to be the worst of the worst forever and ever more. Zelda at least has the stupidest Fair and Bair in the game, she's argued as useful in doubles, and she even has somewhat reliable kill confirms which Falco lacks. He also fails as a counter-pick character, so... Yeah, he ain't got ****. Oh, he's good against Villager! Yeah, who else are?

Spoiler: The Past Never Leaves You; A Falco Rant

Falco is mired by poor, questionable game development choices that happened in Melee with one of them being from 64. 64 Fox Blaster and his (stolen) Blaster is questionable as it's a projectile that can be continually fired and inflicts noticeable hit stun which in 64, Melee, and Brawl, could have almost no recovery which itself is questionable. Then they manage to buff it from Melee to Brawl... Unless you're playing a shooter, hack 'n' slash, or whatever, a projectile that can continually fire in a fighting game should not exist unless there's a catch like Bayonetta's Bullet Climax does hit stun, but minor hit stun and is angled up, so you could just duck under and Fox's (Melee onward) Blaster doesn't do hit stun. If you consider Bowser's Fire Breath and Charizard's Flamethrower as projectiles, then their short range is that catch along with the hitbox shrinking. Bayonetta's Bullet Climax usurps everything Falco's Blaster does while being pretty fair towards the cast and that's in one try unlike Falco's which went from overpowered in 64 through Fox and in Melee to broken as all hell in Brawl to pretty useless in Smash 4. It's really, really easy to fix - Hello! "one-shot", "traditional" fighting game projectiles - and give Falco some semblance of a projectile game that isn't oppressive, but nope, copy and paste Brawl's Blaster, but remove the ability to auto-cancel and then buff everyone's projectile, but his. Why does it need to continually fire? Nostalgia? Oh, wait, everyone, but Falco players hated Falco's Blaster in Melee and Brawl. Now it extends to everyone including Falco players who hate his Blaster. Star Fox reference? Oh, wait, lasers don't cause "hit stun" in Star Fox unless they're charged. Lasers behave more like Fox's Blaster and only cause hit stun when charged which might as well give Falco an Assault-style Blaster where he can move while charging - Mega Man charged shots, anyone? There's almost no reason other than reusing ideas for convenience's sake which actually continues the cycle of hatred against Falco. Nobody likes dealing with projectiles, especially ones that can constantly stun you and stall your actions. It's also pretty useless in FFA since he's stalling them from their deaths unlike Bayonetta who can outright kill them with Charge Bullet or tag them with Bullet Arts or Fox who also just tags them with his Blaster for kill steals. Falco's Blaster is an annoyance ever since 64, but it was threatening in 64, Melee, and Brawl while becoming just annoying in Smash 4. It's not harassment, zoning, or whatever like a traditional projectile such as Ryu's Hadouken or projectiles like the Pits's Arrows, the Links's Boomerang, Mewtwo's Shadow Ball, Samus's Charge Shot, or Zelda's Din's Fire. It's just annoying and pretty much useless outside of followup attempts and gimp attempts which once again, Bayonetta usurps that because of her higher rate of fire.

Falco Phantasm being a "reverse" Fox Illusion in the air is extremely questionable despite it being a weak spike. Let me remind you that it debuted in a game where most recoveries were bad and where fall speeds were generally higher. Combine this with a spike that is like most spikes, fairly slow at frame 18, but covers about half of a stage, well, Yoshi's Story. That's insane. Spikes or moves in general with high active frames are fine considering that it was normal for them in previous games, but that much range? This continues on to even this day; Brawl gave it I-frames on startup, sped it up by 2 frames, matched its distance to Fox Illusion, and lowered the recovery and while Smash 4 halved its hitbox, it still remains as the largest spike in the series. Holy hell, what the hell were you thinking developers? Of all the moves to copy and paste from Brawl (and Melee), you decide to leave Falco Phantasm as the "same move". Hey, anyone remember this scene in Brawl's Subspace Emissary: https://youtu.be/r_Bz6kPgb1k?t=44?

Knowing the developers, they knew what DACUS was; they knew about wave-dashing in Melee after all and they were responsible for all the games and decisions. Here's the difference: cutscene magic made Falco's Falco Phantasm into a DACUS. In the cutscene, it functions like Vergil's Rising Star, a variant or "follow-up" to Rapid Slash. What's Rising Star's input? Lock-on, Forward + Attack (Hold) with Yamato. In DMC games, it's the equivalent to a Special, a Side Special specifically; a move that moves you forward. What would you have to reuse to make it? (Pre-Smash 4 Falco and) Fox's Up Smash and Fox Illusion pose for the startup, travel, and end pose. You wouldn't have to make a pose for a move that's a "reversed" Fox Illusion, but figure it's way too powerful on paper, so you cut down the hitbox and still figure it's still powerful because of the spike hitbox size. Now, it's just Falco's DACUS as a Side Special, but when held and on the ground, it causes Falco to jump up with his target. There you go, no more giant spikes you really can't balance unless you pull a Wolf Flash with it which also works... SO, WHY NOT!? Nah, brah, we gotta keep the Falco feel of having one of the most broken moves both in practice - hello, Brawl - and on paper. Oh, and the whole Fox Illusion having to be weaker in each installment... Just kill off Falco Phantasm so Fox Illusion wouldn't have to be "different" because Falco has a different Side Special.

Last thing would be shared physics and model frames meaning Falco's kind of screwed in every way. Wolf at least has much higher weight like how Ike has higher weight to Corrin's slimmer body and lower weight, but Falco's is a taller, slightly heavier, but still Fox, so anything that works on Fox, works on Falco with Falco dying ~5% later than Fox. This becomes a problem when there are setups geared towards fast fallers and them sharing similar physics and model frames doesn't help Falco at all. It gets worse when Fox can "get away" from these setups because of his higher ground speed and decent projectile allowing him to play in neutral more freely while Falco's going to get caught like an overweight criminal fleeing a former Olympian sprinter.

Please do some freaking research: http://smashboards.com/threads/great-fox-hangar-ace-pilot-list.429118/. I'm in the belief that all character boards / communities need a notable players list since it's really stupid when people say X character has no players, but the PR compilation that is readily available and almost updated daily shows like 10 Lucina players PR'd. How is Lucina bad and has no players when she's PR'd? Oh, but then people say those regions are free... MD/VA's "free", but is home to one of the best PM Lucas and Wolf players and Bayonetta "unlocking" Oco Le Troof and Pink Fresh's potential while before all of that, it was home to one of the stronger Luigi and Sonic players. Free my ***.

The only reason why Falco's managing to survive is that people really are that bad at the game. If you're good at basic fighting game skills, movement, intelligent play, understanding of neutral, advantage, and disadvantage plus basic DI skills and knowledge of what your character can and can't do whether it's setups or how their moves work, Falco can't and shouldn't be able to touch you. Oh, but that sounds like Ganondorf. That's because "he is" Ganondorf if Ganondorf was a bit more versatile and a bit more weaker in terms of raw punish tools.

Sonic's Bthrow upsmash, and fsmash got nerfed. We're in agreement with the rest.

 

[CHIEf]

ZSS continues to fall behind it seems. Top 3? Not anymore potentially.

 

[|RK|]

ZSS continues to fall behind it seems. Top 3? Not anymore potentially.

I think it's a little early to say that. Anti did better with ZSS than Nairo did. He's getting interviewed right now, and he feels like Nairo didn't do as much as he could.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Dabuz showing us that time in the lab, optimism, and focus pay off in spades.

With a top tier of course; Anyone can become a threat with proper training (you actually have options against other good choice characters) . Mid-low tier mains, while they might be able to beat top tiers, they really are at a disadvantage against top level top tiers since their options are generally less rewarding / safe, or lackluster in general. The DLC's while adding more top tiers also make the bridge of viability stricter as well. An eye for an eye eh.

 

[Ffamran]

Falco is kind of upkept by nostalgia and people not wanting to admit that the character has significantly fallen from grace. It's a lot like how people regularly exaggerated Fox and Sheik's potential in Brawl and I think this is even stronger for Falco and Marth because they were high- high tiers for 13 years.

Umm... what nostalgia? What delusional denial that Falco isn't as good as he was in Melee or Brawl? Falco is notorious for playing differently in each game and he's been written off as worse in each game for not being his Melee glory days in Brawl and his Melee and/or Brawl glory days in Smash 4. Fox has been at worse, mid-tier in Brawl while being top or high tier in 64, Melee, PM, and Smash 4. Marth's looking like mid-tier in Smash 4 which would emulate Fox's record of being top and high in other games which for Marth is Melee and Brawl. Falco progressively drops tiers in each game and if it continues, he's going to be worse than Zelda in Smash 5. Although he retains stuff like his fast, strong frame data which leads into his Street Fighter-esque footsies and his combo-oriented game plan, his play style takes wild shifts which is why Melee Falco players don't like Brawl Falco or Smash 4 Falco, Brawl Falco players don't like Melee and Smash 4 Falco, and there are probably PM Falco players who don't like Melee, Brawl, or Smash 4 Falco. And it's not because Falco's been nerfed per game, it's because Falco's different in each game. The overall gameplay of Captain Falcon, Fox, Ganondorf, Link, Luigi, Mario, Samus, Sheik, Toon / Young Link, and Zelda's don't change as drastically as Falco's. They might be speedier, slower, weaker, stronger, or lean more towards select moves than in other games, but they don't go from insane combo game with awesome approach options in Melee to annoying as hell projectile game and stupid grappling in Brawl to stripped down to fundamentals and close-range game in Smash 4. The only "nostalgic" things about Falco is his notoriously poor recovery in each game and his notoriously annoying Blaster in each game. Those are not things you want to be remembered for. It's like being famous and dying with your pants down sitting in a toilet in some gas station.

Nostalgia fits Captain Falcon, Charizard, and even Cloud more. Captain Falcon's barely known for F-Zero anymore, but is famous in Smash for his high speed, powerful hits, and audience-loved Falcon Punch, Knee, and Nipple Spike, Charizard is nostalgic for early Pokémon players and while Charizard does rub some people the wrong way since Blastoise and Venusaur aren't in the game, Charizard's one of the original starters of Pokémon. This also extends to Mewtwo and Pikachu as Mewtwo was the legendary to catch and who had movies all about Mewtwo and Pikachu was the Pokémon kids grew up with thanks to the anime. Perhaps even Jigglypuff as the "lethal joke character" in 64 and Melee with poorer performance in Brawl and Smash 4, but nevertheless, a "lethal joke character". Melee-known Marth even counts as that's how most people were introduced to Fire Emblem and even in Smash 4, he keeps his spacing-oriented, precision-based gameplay while losing his combo potential from Melee and Brawl. In other words, Marth plays similarly, but leans towards the precision-based gameplay to tone him down from his combo everything Melee and Brawl incarnation. And for Cloud, he's the Final Fantasy, RPG, and even videogame character people all know about alongside DK, Duck Hunt dog, Lara Croft?, Link, Mario, Mega Man, PAC-MAN, Pikachu, Ryu, Sephiroth, Sonic, and recently, Master Chief. He's one of the faces of gaming and love him or hate him, he's nostalgia personified for many, especially Final Fantasy (VII) fans.

Spoiler: The Rant Begins! *cue ominous organ playing*

Back to Falco, he would have fit (good) nostalgia if he didn't have an identity crisis in each game. He definitely fits bad nostalgia, though, with his crap recovery and annoying lasers. Falco's more of an example of "we have no idea what the hell we're doing with this character". Drastic changes to his game plan, stagnant evolution per launch of each game, and the idea of his Blaster, Falco Phantasm, and Dair in Melee and Brawl are all questionable. Falco never truly evolved compared to other semi-clones. He only evolved because of patches which when you think about it, is really sad how he was kept pretty much the same per game. Granted, this can be attributed to Smash 4's massive size which justifies the copy and pasting of characters which for Falco who wasn't all that different, doesn't really help him at all. Removal and engine-related changes affected him heavily resulting in drastic shifts to his play style. Brawl took away his and Fox's frame 1 confirm Reflector leaving Fox with a hilariously spammable Reflector stall and Falco with a transcendent poke. Welp, that took away his Shine to Dair pillar and Shine to Bair kill. With hit stun canceling and lowered hit stun in Brawl, his combo game dropped and his high kill power felt like low kill power. Brawl also took away his high fall speed meaning his ability to survive vertical kills disappeared. Smash 4 took away his projectile game which was amazing in Melee and disgustingly powerful in Brawl, his fast Dair and made it into a generic Dair while Cloud was given a balanced - arguable - version of his, and his Gatling combo which was really unique as it was the only normal cancellable option in Smash, but in return, they upped his kill power by returning Dtilt's Melee power, upping Fair's growth, introducing his new Bair, and through patches, upping Up Smash's growth. This emulated his Melee incarnation of high power and high combo potential, but that's not evolution; that's ironically enough, devolution because of Brawl's approach to Falco.

Where's the changes to his Specials? Especially Fire Bird which isn't anything but a worse version of Fire Fox and Fire Wolf. Um... Really? Where's the change to Blaster so it isn't annoying to players, but more like other hit stun-capable projectiles that while annoying, can't be continually fired to the point where you want to beat someone's skull in or has been notorious for being overpowered in previous games? Why just slow down his dash attack of all things? It wasn't abusive nor was the startup the reason why Gatling combo existed. Meanwhile, Fox's frame 4 dash attack with his high run speed letting him use it as a quick punish for everything. Why not a jumping back kick? Or this overhead swipe? Y'know, something reckless-looking that Falco would do? Why just a generic Dair? Why not a fast, but weak Dair instead of the over-tuned fast, strong Dair he had in Melee and Brawl? Am I really asking too much? Maybe I am since they had to fit 50+ characters at launch and pretty much all of them were copy-pastes with mostly nerfs and barely any changes, good or bad.

Some stuff were answered like why did Fox and Falco share air speeds in Melee and Brawl? Well, that changed at launch when Falco kept his and Fox's Brawl air speed of 0.893 while Fox's was upped to 0.96... So, the question became why is Fox (and Wolf) pretty much faster than Falco for everything? That was answered in 1.0.8 when his air speed was upped to 0.93 and air acceleration upped to 0.09. Great, Falco sort of fits the whole bird and pilot who are comfortable in the air now... kind of wished his air speed was higher even if it meant his jump height tanked to compensate 'cause low startup, high damage, high active aerials would have meant death for everyone off-stage against him if he had really good air speed and air acceleration. Another question is why did Falco's Fair have 32 landing frames in Brawl and Smash 4? It was frame 6 in Brawl, did 11%, but didn't connect well 'cause SDI. It's not even strong or good... It's pretty much Melee Falco and Fox's Fair of pure suckage compared to Fox's redesigned, works like a charm Brawl Helicopter Fair. So, it became frame 12 and does 8% to compensate for it connecting properly and having a finisher. Also, the stupidest landing hit in the game since nothing about it makes it look like there should be a hitbox unlike Mario's arms swinging out for Dair or the shockwave from Pikachu's Dair. If any Fair should have a landing hit, it's Ganondorf's. It would even match source material. Hello, first phase of the final boss of Ocarina of Time? Still had 32 landing frames which the landing hit was probably there for... 1.0.8 rolls in, Fair becomes frame 10, does 9%, and has 25 landing frames. Cool, it matches sort of Pikachu and Sonic's now. Why does it still have a landing hit? Are we really trying to promote degenerate play? I thought the changes to Diddy and Luigi's D-throw, Diddy's Uair, and Link's jab 1 were indicative of a "No". Anyway, why weren't any of these done in the first place? Oh, but game development time... Looking at a move, knowing it has 32 landing frames should cause a question mark to grow out of your skull. Gee, should a move that only does 8% and is frame 12 really have 32 landing frames? Meanwhile, Bowser, Link, and Toon Link's Dair doing +15%... Y'know, I keep forgetting these are the same developers who gave Roy 28 landing frames on his Dair which is virtually the same as Ike's if it had shorter range and worse sour-spots... They fixed it in 1.1.4, but really? What the hell is Roy going to do with his low jump and a frame 16 Dair? Sure as hell not going to jump all the way to the blast zone and Dair like Falco or Mewtwo and sure as hell not going to pull Cloud Dair shenanigans with only 2 active frames.

To me, the only changes to Falco that seemed good or were neutral for Falco was his Brawl jab - Smash 4 screwed it up -, Utilt, and Reflector in Brawl and Fair, Bair, and U- and B-throw in Smash 4. Note how I don't mention Nair, Uair, and obviously Fair in Brawl and Up Smash in Smash 4. In Brawl, Nair was iffy; it was sometimes good and sometimes bad. It took a patch to fix this in Smash 4 which is questionable considering it's one of the few multi-hits in Smash that have irregular hits unlike Samus and Sheik's Uair or Lucas, Palutena, and Zelda's Nair which hits in a specific pattern. It's cool that it's off-beat, but considering that people do fall out and because of its off-beat nature, auto-link angles should have been a given in Brawl and definitely in Smash 4. Melee Uair was an 8-9, 11-14 move that did 6% + 10%, 16% total; it's basically what Fox's Uair is in Brawl and Smash 4 in terms of total damage. Brawl changed it so it was a frame 10-14 move that did 11% with a sour-spot on his body. Cool, so it's more consistent which is fine for the damage nerf, but did it really have to be frame 10 with a sour-spot? 2 frames slower than his Melee Uair? It's not even a strong kill move in either Brawl or Smash 4. So, why make it slower? 1.0.8 made it frame 7-11, dropped the damage to 10% and lowered the growth on it while making all the hitboxes the same in knockback and changed the angles to be similar to Captain Falcon's where different parts have different angles... Really debatable on whether or not the hitbox changes and even the damage were necessary. I'd argue that Falco should have kept his Melee Uair with damage nerfs like make it do only 12%, 4% + 8%, because it looked cooler and it would probably work better as juggle allowing Falco to always send you in a specific angle which his Brawl and launch Smash 4 Uair did. That being said, front flip's fine, but it should have been a mixture of 1.0.8's 7-11 and hitboxes Uair with its old knockback, hit angles, and maybe damage at launch. Up Smash was kind of messy at launch and it's finally fixed. Granted, some of it felt like it should have been there all along like I-frames which every flip kick has, but Falco didn't until 1.1.4 and assuming Pikachu's is disjointed because of his tail, makes it seem questionable about why Falco's doesn't when his was the weakest in knockback or the hitbox not hitting low like the animation suggests... Welp, all fixed, but then they make it as strong as Fox's Up Smash... Um... why? A little stronger sure, but almost matching Fox's? This pretty much means Fox's Up Smash only has a +10% lead in kill percent while Falco's wins in startup, active frames, recovery frames, and arguably consistent damage. With everything else, Falco's isn't as good due to lack of confirms, but you could give Fox Falco's Up Smash and it wouldn't be any different really or even better for Fox since he'd have another ledge coverage option and a safer anti-air due to the much higher active frames and lower recovery frames.

Other changes were trivial and weird. Run speed went from 1.5 in Melee to 1.432 in Brawl and 1.472 in Smash 4... Basically he's the same between Melee and Smash 4, but was slower in Brawl for some reason... He's still slow, so what was the point of these changes? Down Smash gaining +2 growth doesn't do much except question why it's the strongest and overall the best compared to Fox and Sonic's which I've already talked about. Fall speed going up from 1.708 in Brawl to 1.8 and gravity going from 0.112 to 0.13 both matching Wolf's feels like they either wanted to mix him and Wolf which Bair's pose and Dair's "generic", but same as Wolf's Dair startup of 16 also seems to suggest. Side Smash going from Brawl's frame 16 to frame 17 is just a why? Was it not slow enough? If so, why not make it frame 31 like Ike's? It being transcendent is also questionable since it's not disjointed at all meaning it's kind of like Ike's dash attack and Little Mac's jab, Utilt, Ftilt, and Dtilt? being recoilless, except in their case, theirs don't recoil unlike Falco's. With Up Smash matching Fox's Up Smash kill power, the idea of Falco being the horizontal killer or having the strongest Side Smash becomes moot when he's also got vertical under his belt - and he had this since Melee thanks to his Dair. Side Smash as a punish becomes less useful when Up Smash has I-frames and Bair is a safer. Sure, in FFA and doubles, but then again, Dtilt, Up Smash, Down Smash, and Bair are all safer, faster punishes. I'd rather have Melee's frame 13 startup than transcendent priority and even alter or reduce the knockback in return. Want us to make more daring actions? Give us better Smashes.

In the end, Falco's still this weird and incomplete character. His moves suggest he should be an anti-zoner and while he does that and does it well with patches making his close-range game better, the problem is his mid-range and long-range game. Either you have good ground speed to get closer by running past projectiles or you have your own projectile that can challenge them. Falco has neither with a strong suggestion he should have the later. Once again, really simple since Falco could be given his Melee Blaster frame data which had 23 frames of startup, 35 recovery frames, and 57 total frames on the ground and 13 startup, 30 recovery, and 42 total frames in the air. Worse startup, but much, much better recovery compared to his current 48 on the ground and 41 in the air. Or the idea of limiting him to one laser per button press like other projectiles which would definitely allow for lower recovery... if it happened and he still had his crap recovery... I'll check myself into the hospital... Falco has one of the highest recovery for a projectile while having one of the lowest reward. This gives it a really skewed high risk/low reward ratio compared to most characters having something like moderate risk/moderate reward like Bayonetta, Cloud (regular Blade Beam), (Dr.) Mario, Duck Hunt, Greninja, Luigi, the Pits, Ryu, Triple D, Villager, Yoshi, and ZSS or low risk/low reward like Fox and Mega Man while some have high risk/high reward like Lucario (Aura Sphere throw-only), Mewtwo, Samus, and Zelda or the inverse, low risk/high reward like Cloud (Limit Blade Beam), Lucario (Aura Sphere as a melee move), PAC-MAN, Robin, Sheik, and Toon Link.

Basically, Falco with a decent, "traditional" projectile like Wolf's Blaster, Fox's Impact Blaster, or a high startup, low recovery projectile like Greninja's Water Shuriken, Guile and Nash's Sonic Boom in Street Fighter, or Leona's Earring Bomb in KoF would likely push him all the way up to solid mid-tier. Why? MUs where he struggles to control space and anti-zone would be better i.e. against characters like Greninja, the Links, the Pits, Robin, and Shulk and MUs where he struggles to set the pace and not be forced to approach would be better i.e. against characters like Captain Falcon, Lucario, Luigi, Mario, Yoshi, and ZSS. He wouldn't suddenly go 60:40, +1, slightly advantaged, whatever with them, but some of them would go from being noticeable negative to slightly negative or borderline even. Having a projectile like that would also solve the whole "Falco is an annoying prick. Can this character be removed from the series?" The fact the Falco AI is programmed to spam Blaster at you in 1v1 doesn't help counter this statement. Falco really is an annoying prick. Oh look, he can only fire at intervals like Ryu now. He's still spamming, but it's easier to bypass and he's not spamming way up close to you now... FALCO AI, WHY ARE YOU SO STUPID!?

Falco doesn't have a really notable player to really show what the character can do at his peak. A good portion of this roster is very underdeveloped.

He's in the middle of the roster I feel. A lesser of the high tiers but has slowly looked more solid as time and patches have came.

Umm... Keitaro, the leading Falco player in results? Cyro, the leading Falco tech-based player? Attila or BigBoss as he's known who won an Australian (Victoria, Australia) major with Falco? Or any of the Japanese Falco players for good movement? I'm going to sound like an *** and this isn't directed at you, but this train of thought: "Falco doesn't have a really notable player to really show what the character can do at his peak", needs to stop. This has been attributed to Greninja, PAC-MAN, Peach, Pikachu, Shulk, Wii Fit Trainer, Yoshi, and even Ryu. Y'know what? Prove it. Stop talking. DO IT! Prove to everyone that X character really is that good. Don't be like me and type BS after BS. GO! Shine on, you crazy diamond! As Falco's side taunt in Japanese and Ken's taunt in 3rd Strike: "Kakatte ki na!" ("Come on!").

Also, are you War Chief? 'Cause I'd like to know if War Chief has a Smashboards account for information filler: http://smashboards.com/threads/great-fox-hangar-ace-pilot-list.429118/.

This. Oh so very much. I could not play an effective Sheik to save my life. I have a powerhouse playstyle which would not click with most of the top tiers.

Edit: Whoops... typing...

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Yeah, there's also whether or not you like how the characters plays, looks, etc. I honestly think Ryu would be a great character for Falco players to switch, but people might not like Ryu for whatever reason. Me, I just like Ken more. Ken for potential Smash NX DLC, please. I need my Dante's voice fix.

This becomes a bit hypocritical when I basically hate main Falco. I never liked Falco in Brawl; liked him in Melee, but in Brawl he was different and I never bothered to learn him since young kid spamming stuff. Smash 4 came and it was the same deal... Then I decided to prove Falco's not trash like people were saying. I don't know if this was a bad idea or not, but now I'm stuck with Falco being my best character and only character I actually like playing. I wonder if indoctrination is considered a crime...

Gunblade just became one of my favorite casters.

'Against bayonetta, people really need to learn to be threatening with their presence and movement first, and not a hitbox first'.

Thank you, and excuse my paraphrasing.

Dude, Gunblade is one of the most informative commentators for Smash. He might not be one of the best players or one of the more entertaining commentators, but he is incredibly privy on fighting game knowledge and connecting them with Smash. Norcal's DC's is like that too and D1 when he's isn't all about DEEEEEESTRUCTION.

I am making one for M2! There are a surprising amount of PR'ed Mewtwos.

There's a surprising amount of players of any character PR'd. There's like one region with 2, technically 3, PR'd Zelda players: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-power-rankings-directory-project.401710/page-14#post-20894805. At that point, you're probably wondering how "free" they are, what kind of **** they're on, and what secrets the Princess of Sass is hiding.

Falco's changes were significant. Before 1.0.8, his combo and edge guard game were a fair bit worse than they are now since his options to extend combos / cover the opponents recovery options were very limited. Because of the buffs to his combo extenders, he is able to rack up a lot more damage / cover more of the opponents escape options from Up throw, D-Tilt, and U-tilt combos, while the buffs to his Nair make his off stage game more powerful since he can immediately challenge the opponents recovery options with a fast frame 3 aerial that lingers and sends the opponent at a difficult to recover angle. In short, his combo and edge guarding ability went from fairly average to very good. I would argue the changes to U-Smash are fairly significant as well, as it is now a pretty solid KO move whereas at launch it was completely useless at high percents. He isn't an amazing character right now, but the buffs were far more than just trivial.

To make this short: the buffs were significant to his close-range game and Falco has had a good close-range game since Melee. If say, Falco's close-range game is a 7/10 at launch, then the buffs made it a 8/10. None of patches addressed his mid-range game and long-range game. Mid-range is generally something like 3/10 while his long-range is dependent on the opponent, but it's probably something like 5/10 at most since Reflector's useful for challenging key projectiles and there's always the option of moving as far away from them which every character can do, but people don't like doing this for whatever reason, so they start running in and get pelted by everything from bombs, bullets, fireballs, lasers, and even burning bacon and vegetables. Oh, look, a motorcycle flew out of the sky. SPLAT!

 

[Jams.]

Dabuz showing the difference in ZSS' neutral when you don't fall for gimmicks like jab to grab and when you don't try to shieldgrab her nairs and get jabbed every time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Minor point, but can't Rosalina shieldgrab ZSS' nair because Luma adds additional hitlag to the move? I've seen Dabuz shieldgrab a lot of Sheiks' landing fairs because of this.

 

[CHIEf]

Nah I'm not War Chief.

I know about Keitaro and Cyro. Even with pocket top tiers Keitaro just isn't good enough as a player to show the pinnacle of a character. I've never even seen Cyro on livestream. Falco and many others need near top level play to really show their worth.

Everyone I play offline hates my Falco. I'm off to another tournament next weekend in Lansing.

 

[Tri Knight]

There's definitely a lot more characters that seem to be capable of making top 8's than I thought there would be in the early stages of the game. Mid-tiers taking home the gold, making top 8's. Some low-tiers even appearing in the spot-light. Definitely seeing some changes in the tier list now.

Whats weird is some characters not being as popular as they used to be. Is it the meta that's pushing them away?

 

[L9999]

There's definitely a lot more characters that seem to be capable of making top 8's than I thought there would be in the early stages of the game. Mid-tiers taking home the gold, making top 8's. Some low-tiers even appearing in the spot-light. Definitely seeing some changes in the tier list now.

Whats weird is some characters not being as popular as they used to be. Is it the meta that's pushing them away?

Not to quite myself forever, but there are 58 characters; popularity and opinions are bound to be bipolar and changing.

 

[PK Gaming]

There's definitely a lot more characters that seem to be capable of making top 8's than I thought there would be in the early stages of the game. Mid-tiers taking home the gold, making top 8's. Some low-tiers even appearing in the spot-light. Definitely seeing some changes in the tier list now.

Whats weird is some characters not being as popular as they used to be. Is it the meta that's pushing them away?

Right. For all the doom and gloom surrounding the game's balance (some justified, some not), i'm glad to see non-staple characters making waves at tournaments. New characters aside, people are definitely getting better at fighting the top tiers in this game.

 

[Browny]

Umm... what nostalgia? What delusional denial that Falco isn't as good as he was in Melee or Brawl?

That's not what hes getting at at all and by your join date, I dont think you understand it. This has literally nothing to do with nostalgia over a character with a long history like Mewtwo, Sonic, Link etc but its purely about how popular the character was in competitive play. I highly doubt anyone was 'nostalgic' over Marth from melee from all their time playing him in Fire Emblem back in 2001.

It is the blind fanboyism and extreme denial of certain character mains' who refuse to accept that their character has been nerfed and take it like a personal insult when you point out that a character isnt as good as they used to be.

Sheik in brawl absolutely was the pinnacle of this nonsense. At least falcon mains in brawl swallowed their pride and accepted the character was horrid yet sheik mains refused to admit the extent of the nerfs she had taken. IMO it was a classic case of people denying something because their time invested was too great. The die hard nostalgic sheik mains put in so many hours into her in melee, that by admitting she was bad in brawl would be in a way, invalidating all of the effort they put into her and admitting they were wrong. They argued that she beat metaknight (LOL) and could win her 2-8 matchups vs the likes of pikachu by playing her optimally.

Many players never want to admit the hours they have sunk into a character might not have been the best competitive choice, yet plenty of players do and they switch mains to perform better. Look at Pink Fresh, the guy was a die-hard lucas main and did well but as soon as someone better came along, he took it and does amazing. The players who DONT do this however, have a large tendency to main characters that used to be good in other games and they performed well in tournaments, now they start losing a lot and they refuse to switch because they feel like all their time using them in brawl/melee was a waste.

won an Australian (Victoria, Australia) major with Falco?

What?

That never happened. Australia has only had two real majors and they have been won by Villager and Sheik/MK. Every other 'big' tournament has been nothing more than a regional with a few interstate visitors.

 

[shrooby]

Speaking of neutral (because this thread could use more of that), Anti vs. Hyuga was an amazing display of adjustment in neutral. In their first set, which went 3-0 in Hyuga's favor, Anti was letting go of shield a lot and getting hit by bombs into confirms. Void apparently gave him some advice to stay in shield for longer/more adamantly, and doing so resulted in a 3-0 comeback in the losers bracket. Shows a gaping weakness in Toon Link's neutral game. No matter how much awesome stuff he has, (smart use of) shielding is indeed a problem for a tether+projectile based character.

Also, make note of how Anti's Sheik prefers to run against Nairo's ZSS rather than walk or jump. Sometimes, it's more important to stay on top of someone/get into position quickly than it is to space perfectly.

Yup~ Toon Link loses to shield big time. (Zan and Void are in the same region so no surprise he knows that.)

When Tink throws a bomb at you and you shield it, he's expecting you to then do something... Run in, run away, roll away, jump, etc. (Natural instinct to want to do something after the bomb bounces off your shield.)
Hyuga knows that. If you watch him play you can see him go for those type of reads. Because that's really all he can do. (You can spice that up with double bombs and boomerang traps too.)

Another example if anyone's interested I guess, K9 v. Hyuga at Shots Fired demonstrates this in practice really well too. Also Marss v. Hyuga at G3.
Smart defensive play is Tink's weakness. Not knowing how to respond to his pressure properly makes him look a lot better than he is. (Not to say he isn't good.)

 

[Big-Cat]

I can attest to that. Toon Link wants you to rush in and cave into the pressure. Sometimes I just shield the dropped bomb and wait for it to explode or bait the opponent to come in for the grab.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Here's an interesting question.

What characters have the best grabs?

Not throws.

Grabs.

 

[DanGR]

Minor point, but can't Rosalina shieldgrab ZSS' nair because Luma adds additional hitlag to the move? I've seen Dabuz shieldgrab a lot of Sheiks' landing fairs because of this.

Hitlag affects both the attacker and receiver (on block too). ZSS gets hitlag from hitting Luma, which is then extended (the hitlag counter is 'reset' so to speak) by hitting Rosa's shield. That extended hitlag doesn't exceed what would normally result from hitting Rosa's shield by itself. In other words, the hitlag windows overlap. So there's no difference in safety on block.

Example of extended hitlag:
https://zippy.gfycat.com/DependentEarlyBlowfish.webm

Shoddy paint drawing illustrating ZSS nair hitting Luma then Rosa's shield: https://i.gyazo.com/95ca63021fc0a05ae16460c2ac4d0123.png

---

Dabuz gets shieldgrabs on a lot of Sheiks' landing fairs because 1. Rosa's grab range is quite a bit above average, 2. Rosa's ground movement options are fairly non-committal, and she has an excellent roll- these feed into a gameplan that lets Rosa safely 'fish' for shieldgrabs in a lot of situations. 3. Dabuz is ridiculously good and experienced at shield-play in general. Brawl Olimar will do that for ya.

 

[Ffamran]

That's not what hes getting at at all and by your join date, I dont think you understand it. This has literally nothing to do with nostalgia over a character with a long history like Mewtwo, Sonic, Link etc but its purely about how popular the character was in competitive play. I highly doubt anyone was 'nostalgic' over Marth from melee from all their time playing him in Fire Emblem back in 2001.

It is the blind fanboyism and extreme denial of certain character mains' who refuse to accept that their character has been nerfed and take it like a personal insult when you point out that a character isnt as good as they used to be.

Sheik in brawl absolutely was the pinnacle of this nonsense. At least falcon mains in brawl swallowed their pride and accepted the character was horrid yet sheik mains refused to admit the extent of the nerfs she had taken. IMO it was a classic case of people denying something because their time invested was too great. The die hard nostalgic sheik mains put in so many hours into her in melee, that by admitting she was bad in brawl would be in a way, invalidating all of the effort they put into her and admitting they were wrong. They argued that she beat metaknight (LOL) and could win her 2-8 matchups vs the likes of pikachu by playing her optimally.

Many players never want to admit the hours they have sunk into a character might not have been the best competitive choice, yet plenty of players do and they switch mains to perform better. Look at Pink Fresh, the guy was a die-hard lucas main and did well but as soon as someone better came along, he took it and does amazing. The players who DONT do this however, have a large tendency to main characters that used to be good in other games and they performed well in tournaments, now they start losing a lot and they refuse to switch because they feel like all their time using them in brawl/melee was a waste.

Second paragraph of my post goes into nostalgia as fond memories of a character and their past with the character. First paragraph sort of addressed what you're saying. Falco can't fit "nostalgia" in either sense when as a character he's pretty barebones unless you managed to read a Japanese-only manga on him. Even then, what's he got compared to Cloud, Fox, Krystal, Ganondorf, Marth, and Wolf character-wise? He's just your cocky, renegade pilot who learns about the power of friendship. Flat, minor, side character who you could replace with a screaming iguana and it wouldn't make a difference because all your allies in the Star Fox games were pretty much cannon fodder and background events. Maybe Zero will fix this... who knows.

From a competitive standpoint... Falco being different in each game means nobody likes him if they were mains of him in specific games. Each new incarnation of Falco is utter trash to them and they'll stick with their Falco which is unfortunate for Brawl 'cause... yeah. Brawl Falco isn't Melee Falco, Smash 4 Falco isn't Brawl Falco, PM Falco isn't Melee Falco, and if the trend continues, Smash 5 Falco won't be Smash 4 Falco. Identity crises means your time is wasted per game with Falco unlike Captain Falcon, Fox, Mario, Marth, and Yoshi where there are still similar ideas and play styles per game. You're forced to adapt... Who wants to do that with a character? If I'm playing Ryu in Street Fighter, then it better be the same damn Ryu in all the Street Fighters or I'm switching.

So there can't be "nostalgia" when each game has players not liking Falco is nerfed and Falco changes in each game. People up and left Falco per game because he wasn't the Falco they played. No fanboyism, no loyalties, nothing, but a big middle finger to each incarnation of Falco from players of different incarnations of Falco. Unless you really like Falco for whatever reason, there's almost no reason to play each Falco competitively and then complain when none of them are the same outside of he combos, but any character can make that claim. Pick him up in a different game, note the differences, say a few curses, and go back to the game you've spent time with that particular Falco.

I get the idea of "loyalty" and being pissed when your character isn't as good in general or in previous games, but it just doesn't work with Falco when he's never the same. Falco's just hated in general because for Falco players, he's not the Falco players put time into and because for non-Falco players, he's annoying to fight in each game, but debatably less so in Smash 4 where he gets bodied by the entire cast. You can be loyal to Falco, but you can't be loyal to Falco competitively when Falco's never the same. It's pointless really as the Falco in one game won't be the Falco in the other, so just pick another freaking character. Contrast this to pretty everyone else who play similarly in each game. Those characters you can be loyal to in both ways.

What?

That never happened. Australia has only had two real majors and they have been won by Villager and Sheik/MK. Every other 'big' tournament has been nothing more than a regional with a few interstate visitors.

Sorry, regional. Not familiar enough with Australia's competitive scene and I vaguely remember what BigBoss did with Falco. Was talking about this: http://smashboards.com/rankings/couchwarriors-june-2015-wii-u-singles.6996/event.

 

[warionumbah2]

Was is the twitch account?

It was streamed here https://www.twitch.tv/hydraprogaming

 

[Routa]

Here's an interesting question.

What characters have the best grabs?

Not throws.

Grabs.

As far as I know DK and Charizard have huge range when it comes to their grab. Bowser has insane pivot grab like near Melee Marth grab. There might be more characters that have amazing grabs, but thous are first to come in my mind.

Edit: changed "had" to "has". Autocorrect on phone is.... Mmm...

 

[Megamang]

Megaman has pretty good grabs. Standing grab is f6, and dash grab is 2 frames slower but has deceptively good range. Pivot grab is slower, like almost all pivot grabs, but is also huge. His hands expand when he grabs, much like when Mario jabs.

 

[Jamurai]

As far as I know DK and Charizard have huge range when it comes to their grab. Bowser has insane pivot grab like near Melee Marth grab. There might be more characters that have amazing grabs, but thous are first to come in my mind.

I'm pretty sure DK has the same pivot grab range as Bowser does (happy to be wrong though). His grab game being so good alongside his throw game being infamously ridiculous is obviously a deadly combination.

Falcon and MK have amazing dash grabs which contribute to their scary ground games, and have the throws to back it up.

Fox's grab game is really very good, but unfortunately his throws are lacklustre; positional advantage only (unless the opponent DIs Dthrow in at 0%).

 

[T4ylor]

As far as I know DK and Charizard have huge range when it comes to their grab. Bowser has insane pivot grab like near Melee Marth grab. There might be more characters that have amazing grabs, but thous are first to come in my mind.

Edit: changed "had" to "has". Autocorrect on phone is.... Mmm...

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3xxw0z/ranking_of_all_characters_grab_ranges_in_smash_4/ This person tested standing grab ranges. Looks like DK's isn't so good and Charizard's is among the worst, though Charizard does have a huge range for his dashgrab.

 

[Routa]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3xxw0z/ranking_of_all_characters_grab_ranges_in_smash_4/ This person tested standing grab ranges. Looks like DK's isn't so good and Charizard's is among the worst, though Charizard does have a huge range for his dashgrab.

"This is testing one thing: how far the grab hitbox extends from the hurtbox. This is an absolute, deterministic value. When comparing two characters, the character with the largest 'net grab range' will win. Therefore, this ranking just determines who has the highest 'net grab range.' "

 

[Diddy Kong]

Only word on twitter seems to be that Nairo is considering using a non-ZSS character for Sheik.

https://twitter.com/Liquid_Nairo/status/709212816058806272?lang=en


and that he considered Rosalina difficult for ZSS too


But, may just be Nairo on tilt, nothing definitive. Definitely the most interesting set of finals I've seen in quite some time, though.

Someone tell the man to pick up Diddy.

I want Diddy to become the standarised counter-pick to Sheik.

Soon we are all gonna realise Diddy is future.

Yeah, but to be honest, Cloud, Mario and Diddy seem like the best contenders to beat Sheik. Or at least, they have the best chance to face up against her.

 

[Big-Cat]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3xxw0z/ranking_of_all_characters_grab_ranges_in_smash_4/ This person tested standing grab ranges. Looks like DK's isn't so good and Charizard's is among the worst, though Charizard does have a huge range for his dashgrab.

So not surprising that Bowser has the best non-disjoint grab range. Wait, is Yoshi's grab part of his hurtbox?

 

[Deleted member]

Here's an interesting question.

What characters have the best grabs?

Not throws.

Grabs.

has a really nice dash grab, in my opinion. 's grab also has long reach and isn't awfully slow either.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Here's an interesting question.

What characters have the best grabs?

Not throws.

Grabs.

In my opinion:

Standing grab: (those yaoi hands, yo), (safest standing tether grab), ("lemme just cup yo face with muh giant, filthy oven mitts, boi"), (perhaps you're noticing a pattern by this point?)

Reverse Grabs: (inexplicably huge grab range), (safest and fastest reverse tether grab), (just one of the many perfect pivot shenanigans this character can pull off), (another character that seems to really benefit from perfect pivot grabs)

Dash Grabs: (so fast that you might carry your opponent off the stage, leading to high pressure set ups), (hit/shield stun into dash grab is about as bread and butter as you can get with this character), (see Captain Falcon), (see Greninja)

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshi is a good pick vs. Sheik as well.

(not that recommended as a secondary though)

 

[Fatmanonice]

I don't think Wii Fit vs Sheik is super terrible either. Of the top and high tiers, I'd argue that Diddy, Pikachu, and Metaknight are bigger pains to deal with. Wii Fit kind of has the same problem as Brawl Mario in that she really doesn't run away with any match ups though aside for some people below her. She has few matchups where she gets BTFO (Kirby being her worst as well as the most odd) and a lot of her matchups are reasonably doable.

 

[G. Stache]

I have a question because this tends to vary by opinion: how (or what) would you describe (as) 'honest' in this game?

And, more specifically, is a character like Mewtwo honest? Someone with very strong strengths (mobility, kill power), yet fairly large weaknesses (weight, large size, weakness to rushdown)?