Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Y2Kay]

Nairo really is a great player, but he gets on tilt.... a lot. I began to notice in his set with Hyuga. He made a few mistakes and started to lose control of the match. He started fishing for Boost Kicksabd kept getting hit by things he'd usually dodge. You could tell that Hyuga began to get in his head. This is noticeable trend I've begun to pick up on. It's weird to see a player like him lose his composure in matches this often.

 

[wedl!!]

a wise man once said; "There are no honest characters, only bad ones."

the word you're looking for is "most balanced" and that doesn't really apply to mewtwo either, he's actually unlike a lot of good characters because he has flaws by design

 

[Fatmanonice]

I have a question because this tends to vary by opinion: how (or what) would you describe (as) 'honest' in this game?

And, more specifically, is a character like Mewtwo honest? Someone with very strong strengths (mobility, kill power), yet fairly large weaknesses (weight, large size, weakness to rushdown)?

Usually when I see people say "honest", they're usually referring to characters with underwhelming strengths but also minor weaknesses and, in that regard, people tend to throw this adjective around a lot when describing the two Pits. I dunno. There doesn't seem to be a consensus on what "honest" fully implies. I'd personally describe it as "average", "boring", or "Mickey Mouse (gets the job done but there are a lot better options)." In my opinion, Falcon's "honest" in the fact that his gameplan is really straight forward and can be effective but anything he can do, Mario, ZSS, Fox, Sheik, Metaknight, etc can do better.

 

[Big-Cat]

I consider a character to be honest if they need to take actual risks to kill before 100% and/or they really gotta play the neutral to beat the odds.

 

[PK Gaming]

Usually when I see people say "honest", they're usually referring to characters with underwhelming strengths but also minor weaknesses and, in that regard, people tend to throw this adjective around a lot when describing the two Pits. I dunno. There doesn't seem to be a consensus on what "honest" fully implies. I'd personally describe it as "average", "boring", or "Mickey Mouse (gets the job done but there are a lot better options)." In my opinion, Falcon's "honest" in the fact that his gameplan is really straight forward and can be effective but anything he can do, Mario, ZSS, Fox, Sheik, Metaknight, etc can do better.

It's simpler than that. It just means the character has "no bull****" of any kind.

It doesn't necessarily mean they're outclassed by another character.

 

[ReRaze]

It's simpler than that. It just means the character has "no bull****" of any kind.

It doesn't necessarily mean they're outclassed by another character.

This ^ Like take ganondorf for example, definitely in the bottom half of the cast but gets the dirtiest kills occasionally.

 

[adom4]

This ^ Like take ganondorf for example, definitely in the bottom half of the cast but gets the dirtiest kills occasionally.

Some of Ganon's moves would be downright broken on some characters, nothing beats F-smashing someone even after the animation is finished lol.

 

[Nobie]

Even pre-patch, Mewtwo was not an "honest" character, and the degree to which a character is honest has almost nothing to do with their weaknesses in my opinion.

When you look at Mewtwo's toolkit, he just has a lot of things that are designed to overwhelm opponents. Down tilt is amazing. Confusion is this multipurpose tool. With better hit stun and shield stun due to his recent buffs, he can bully opponents if he makes the right choices. He's not braindead, but his tools are all deliberately kind of overtuned to make up for his weight, and even though his frame data is kind of slow it's quite fast for what it's supposed to do.

I think an "honest" character is one who essentially can't checkmate their opponent using extremely powerful options. When they play footsies, they have attacks whose effectiveness are dictated more by decision-making than the sheer strength of those attacks. If they do have effective pokes, they don't instantly lead into the opponent getting blindsided and taken for a ride. If they have a strong, read-based move, its weaknesses cannot simply be worked around by comboing into it.

I think the poster boy for an honest and effective move is actually Falco's forward tilt. It's a great poke, with nice range, good frame data, and decent damage, but you can't just throw it out there in the expectation that it will directly lead to closing out a stock. It does no more and no less than what a move of that power and speed should.

 

[Fatmanonice]

It's simpler than that. It just means the character has "no bull****" of any kind.

It doesn't necessarily mean they're outclassed by another character.

Well, now we run into the issue of defining "bull****" because different players have different criteria for what that implies.

There's positive bull**** meaning it's stupidly good like Ness's bthrow, Sheik's needles, Luma the Diabetic Throw Pillow, and Cloud's entire existence and there's negative bull*** meaning it's comically terrible like Duck Hunt's fsmash, Pac-Man's standing grab, Dedede's dirigible like airspeed, and Zelda's entire existence. Convoluted, I know, but so is just about everything when it comes to semantics.

 

[epicnights]

Ok, I know this was 3 pages back, but I've got to call you out on what you said about Delfino, @Megamang .

Its not that simple. Some characters get random tremendous advantages, such as ZSS at Delfino.

Random? Let's take a look at the Delfino Plaza research thread. The first landing can be either Bianco Square or East Island. The second landing can be either the Docks, the Pillars, or Weat Island. The third landing could be either the Umbrellas or the Rooftop. The fourth platform can be Noki Bay or the Shine Gate. Not exactly random, would you say?

The stage changes already favor a more mobile character, then you get random 5 second intervals where suddenly a grab is a free kill.

There's that word again, "random". Looking at the Delfino Plaza research thread, the transformations last for approximately 18 seconds. With this in mind, one can easily keep track of when a transformation is going to occur and manage the change of blastzones accordingly.

Considering there are already good stages to ban in every MU, saying 'just ban it' is silly because then you lose your ban for free. So, then Cloud gets either Delfino or Smashville, or Duck Hunt? Yay...

Isn't that the point of a counterpick, though? Your opponent should be getting a stage that is positive for their character, and you are to ban stages that are negative for your character.

It'd be one thing if it promoted diversity, but as it is the best characters tend to have traits that are already amazingly powerful, and just become downright stupid on certain stages.

Delfino certainly does provide diversity. I personally cannot think of a top 15 character that would prefer Delfino when there are stages like Dreamland, Smashville, Duck Hunt...

In addition, Delfino would be the only stage with a pass-through main platform, which benefits lots of characters greatly: alternative double jumps such as PSI Kids, Mewtwo, and Peach; multijump characters like Dedede, the Pits, Kirby, Charizard, and Jigglypuff; and characters that struggle at the ledge such as DK, Pac-man, etc.

 

[PK Gaming]

Well, now we run into the issue of defining "bull****" because different players have different criteria for what that implies.

There's positive bull**** meaning it's stupidly good like Ness's bthrow, Sheik's needles, Luma the Diabetic Throw Pillow, and Cloud's entire existence and there's negative bull*** meaning it's comically terrible like Duck Hunt's fsmash, Pac-Man's standing grab, Dedede's dirigible like airspeed, and Zelda's entire existence. Convoluted, I know, but so is just about everything when it comes to semantics.

Hah, I suppose that's fair. That said, i'm exclusively talking about the former. A.k.a kuso, nonsense, etc.

Zelda's entire existence

Now that's more of a full on tragedy.

 

[Nobie]

I think a broader way of looking at "honest" vs. "BS" is to think about it in rock-paper-scissors terms.

A lot of people say fighting games are like RPS. You always have an option that can beat the opponent, and an option that the opponent can beat you with, as well as the possibility of a tie. Also, each victory in RPS counts just as much the previous ones and any games following it.

"BS" or "dishonest" moves are almost like having the power to throw out two things at the same time, or having "dynamite" that beats everything, or having a "special rock" that counts for 5 wins instead of just 1.

I know the analogy falls apart after a certain point, but eh.

 

[TurboLink]

I've always thought of Link as honest.

The only dishonest thing I can think of for Link is the hitbox on his dair.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'd almost argue Mario because he's good because he's so well rounded and there's not too much that's super janky about him. His combo ability is great but his killing ability is average at best and he doesn't have that good of range either for most of his attacks. He has fantastic grab set ups but his grab range is kind of pitiful. FLUDD and cape are interesting tools but they're kind of niche. Fantastic air speed but his overall recovery is straight forward and he's kind of SOL if he loses his second jump. For every pro, there's a con and he just sort of breaks even in the end. No trumps like waft or KO punch. No super easy gimps. No real kill throws. Only a few really reliable kill moves. No shield breakers. No advanced techs. Just straight forward fundamentals.

 

[kackamee]

I've always thought of Falco as the most honest character in this game in terms of how he feels to play as and play against. I think the Pits are a close second, and everyone else is a relatively distant third.

I'd almost argue Mario because he's good because he's so well rounded and there's not too much that's super janky about him.

I don't think Mario necessarily qualifies as "honest" because of how good he is from just throwing out moves. Not quite janky, but often times, at least to me, it feels like you can just throw out hitboxes with Mario and get a lot more mileage than with other characters.

 

[BunbUn129]

I'd almost argue Mario because he's good because he's so well rounded and there's not too much that's super janky about him. His combo ability is great but his killing ability is average at best and he doesn't have that good of range either for most of his attacks. He has fantastic grab set ups but his grab range is kind of pitiful. FLUDD and cape are interesting tools but they're kind of niche. Fantastic air speed but his overall recovery is straight forward and he's kind of SOL if he loses his second jump. For every pro, there's a con and he just sort of breaks even in the end. No trumps like waft or KO punch. No super easy gimps. No real kill throws. Only a few really reliable kill moves. No shield breakers. No advanced techs. Just straight forward fundamentals.

I've always thought of Falco as the most honest character in this game in terms of how he feels to play as and play against. I think the Pits are a close second, and everyone else is a relatively distant third.


I don't think Mario necessarily qualifies as "honest" because of how good he is from just throwing out moves. Not quite janky, but often times, at least to me, it feels like you can just throw out hitboxes with Mario and get a lot more mileage than with other characters.

All this talk about "honesty" and Mario, and not one blessed person has even mentioned up tilt? And how it leads into heavy damage with Ally combos?

 

[Das Koopa]

ZeRo's High Tier list, fresh off the presses.

 

[ARISTOS]

ZeRo's High Tier list, fresh off the presses.

Biggest takeaway was the placing of , as well as the absence of

For those who don't want to watch:

16-28


That's a big fall from grace for Yoshi and Wario

 

[FullMoon]

28th is High Tier in Zero's eyes...?

What's up with Greninja always ending up at 25th lol

 

[C0rvus]

Pretty good tier list so far. I personally would have Luigi lower, but it fits his criteria pretty soundly.
Surprised he didn't mention The Wall's Yoshi. He's number 1 or 2 on his region's PR.
I do think Mewtwo is better than some of these characters, but I find it hard to place him in this tier. It just wouldn't line up by ZeRo's criteria.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Top ten positive and negative BS in my opinion (in no particular order)

Positive
- the entire limit break system
-bowling ball/tree on the ledge
- the Expand Dong combo
-Witch Time
- pretty much all of Sheik's specials to some degree
- bthrow
- counter
- combos into boost kick
-combos into shuttle loop
- max rage aura

Negative

- all his Smash attacks
- no real set up throw for characters that are meant to easily combo
- take your pick
- air speed
- their canonically weaker counterparts being significantly better than them in every way
-virtually nonexistent air and offstage game
-standing grab
- no real landing options
- some of the best jab/grab set ups in the game but does everything else so mediocre that they're bottom tier
- only clone that's so similar to their counterpart that there's virtually no logical reason to pick her over Marth

 

[TurboLink]

Top ten positive and negative BS in my opinion (in no particular order)

Positive
- the entire limit break system
-bowling ball/tree on the ledge
- the Expand Dong combo
-Witch Time
- pretty much all of Sheik's specials to some degree
- bthrow
- counter
- combos into boost kick
-combos into shuttle loop
- max rage aura

Negative

- all his Smash attacks
- no real set up throw for characters that are meant to easily combo
- take your pick
- air speed
- their canonically weaker counterparts being significantly better than them in every way
-virtually nonexistent air and offstage game
-standing grab
- no real landing options
- some of the best jab/grab set ups in the game but does everything else so mediocre that they're bottom tier
- only clone that's so similar to their counterpart that there's virtually no logical reason to pick her over Marth

Doesn't Palutena have great air acceleration and excellent aerials though?

And there are reasons to pick Lucina over Marth now I believe.

Also, Sheik's side special is pretty tame while still being useful.

 

[Browny]

Pfft @ Ness' Bthrow being BS

Centre stage, it is barely stronger than Mewtwos upthrow, and since SOMEONE has to have the best KO throw in the game, I think its hardly BS that at centre stage, the #1 kill throw kills a few % earlier than the #2 kill throw.

Sure it kills earlier at the edge, but then it also kills later when on the wrong side of the stage.

 

[PK Gaming]

Rosa's Uair definitely deserves a spot on the positive bs list

 

[FallofBrawl]

I consider Nair into Down B more BS for ZSS than her boostkick stuff since players are starting to know how to DI it.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Pfft @ Ness' Bthrow being BS

Centre stage, it is barely stronger than Mewtwos upthrow, and since SOMEONE has to have the best KO throw in the game, I think its hardly BS that at centre stage, the #1 kill throw kills a few % earlier than the #2 kill throw.

Sure it kills earlier at the edge, but then it also kills later when on the wrong side of the stage.

It's easily the most reliable kill option in the game, especially fresh and with rage. One grab at 120% for most of the cast and they're almost guaranteed dead. If Ness has a rage, a good portion of the cast is dead at 100%.

Doesn't Palutena have great air acceleration and excellent aerials though?

And there are reasons to pick Lucina over Marth now I believe.

Also, Sheik's side special is pretty tame while still being useful.

Her aerials are okay but you are right about her air acceleration. Like I said, mostly mediocre overall. Her smash attacks, specials, and tilts are largely awkward.

I have yet to hear these reasons.

Sheik's grenade is a good frame trap and can be done coming down to the ledge to prevent approaches. Much less jank than the others but just consider how stupidly good needles, vanish, and bouncing fish are to get the idea of where I'm coming from.

 

[momochuu]

the peach high tier meme is eternal, rofl.

im surprised he put wii fit above mewtwo.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'd almost argue Mario because he's good because he's so well rounded and there's not too much that's super janky about him. His combo ability is great but his killing ability is average at best and he doesn't have that good of range either for most of his attacks. He has fantastic grab set ups but his grab range is kind of pitiful. FLUDD and cape are interesting tools but they're kind of niche. Fantastic air speed but his overall recovery is straight forward and he's kind of SOL if he loses his second jump. For every pro, there's a con and he just sort of breaks even in the end. No trumps like waft or KO punch. No super easy gimps. No real kill throws. Only a few really reliable kill moves. No shield breakers. No advanced techs. Just straight forward fundamentals.

Auto combos for stringing simple moves as U Tilt, U Air or N Air doesn't make him "fair". The only times I'd argue Mario was truely 'balanced' where in 64 and Melee. Brawl Mario was horrible, and Smash 4 Mario has second to most results after Cloud. Actually beating characters he's "supposed" to do worse to in comparison, like Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina... He's kind of ridiculous in this game to be honest. If you say Mario's balanced, I say he's balanced in a way cause he basically 55-45's the entire cast- and he beats up a lot of characters worse than that to boot.

'Honest' in a game like Smash is a kind of wonky principle anyway.

 

[Browny]

It's easily the most reliable kill option in the game, especially fresh and with rage. One grab at 120% for most of the cast and they're almost guaranteed dead. If Ness has a rage, a good portion of the cast is dead at 100%.

Certainly deserves the most BS throw kill title.

 

[FallofBrawl]

the peach high tier meme is eternal, rofl.

im surprised he put wii fit above mewtwo.

Well in the video he clearly states he bases this part of the list off of TOURNAMENT RESULTS, so I can see why he has Peach in there (Kei,Umeki,Slayerz) and why WFT is above Mew2 (Rin,John #s)

EDIT: Wait I could've sworn he said something about tourney results in the video...I need a break

 

[Jams.]

28th is High Tier in Zero's eyes...?

What's up with Greninja always ending up at 25th lol

I think it makes sense when looking at character viability relative to tier lists for prior games.

For reference, here are the lowest characters in high tier in the most recent Melee and Brawl tier lists:
Melee:
Brawl:

In both games, the high tier characters are viable at a regional level and below, but generally fizzle out before accomplishing anything notable at the national level without a secondary (the notable exception being Salem's Apex win with Brawl ZSS, but that was largely off MU inexperience IMO). I wouldn't say anyone from ZeRo's high tier is markedly less viable in Smash 4 than any former high tiers from their respective games.

---

Going to comment a bit on since ZeRo's opinion seems vastly more optimistic compared to the prevailing opinion in this thread. You could make a decent argument that ZeRo is the best Falcon in the world, and I'm sure that he plays lots of top and high level players with his Falcon in friendlies. I personally value ZeRo's opinion of this character more than his downward trend of results, because I feel ZeRo has a very good understanding of this character's relevance in the metagame. While you could argue Falcon is overrated because ZeRo isn't as familiar with other characters, at the very least I don't think his Falcon placement should be written off.

On the other hand I'm quite as sure about his very high placement.

I think he's slightly underrating some characters, but I'm using the benchmark for high tier, so he might just be overrating ROB to me.

 

[Nobie]

I don't mind Mewtwo at mid tier at this point, just because he hasn't yet proven himself on the grandest of stages. However, just the fact that people are coming/coming back to Mewtwo and getting better results for themselves in the process says a lot.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

Biggest takeaway was the placing of , as well as the absence of

For those who don't want to watch:

16-28


That's a big fall from grace for Yoshi and Wario

While this may be Zer0's final tier list, I fear Yoshi has a way to fall as the meta progresses. Here are some things that are wrong with Yoshi since people tend to overestimate the character:

• Poor grab game - slow grabs with bad FAF and no true combos. Command grab is slow and risky. Frame 6-7 grab is the best move in the game and Yoshi suffers for having not having it
• Few if any disjoints - Grabs are disjointed but are Yoshi's only disjoints and can't be spaced safely or clank with other disjoints.
• Poor microspacing - Yoshi can macrospace all over the stage but microspacing is poor. He's got a lot of FAF on his low range tilts.
• Hurtbox/Hurtbox shuffling - Yoshi's tilts and f-airs are easily destroyed by every little shift in character position.
• Shield radius - Shield is one Yoshi head shorter than Yoshi. He block attacks closer to the ground and not as encompassing as other character's his size. Other characters have a larger perfect shield zone than Yoshi. That gives him a clumsy shield game where he is damned if he shields, damned if he doesn't.
• Poor jumpsquat, poor dash to neutral.
• Cloud meta - much worse for Yoshi than Sheik/Diddy/ZSS metas. Previous metas were much better for Yoshi than the current one. To be honest, we're at the point in the meta where good players are abandoning mid-high tiers for top tiers so it's unlikely Yoshi can do much better than he's done other than a savant-like player doing freaky technical things with him.

Mewtwo is a better Yoshi. He has better grabs, better shield, better F-air, better B-air, better tilts, better landing B-reversed command grab thing, better projectile (frame 6 release on charge), better kill set-ups, equitable safety in the air due to best air-dodge in the game and good up-B weighed against Yoshi's heavy armor. He only has worst weight and larger hurt-box, but technically is much faster and has more potential.

 

[Das Koopa]

Pretty good tier list so far. I personally would have Luigi lower, but it fits his criteria pretty soundly.
Surprised he didn't mention The Wall's Yoshi. He's number 1 or 2 on his region's PR.
I do think Mewtwo is better than some of these characters, but I find it hard to place him in this tier. It just wouldn't line up by ZeRo's criteria.

I expect characters like Pac-Man, Mewtwo, Mega Man, Olimar, Robin, and Marth to be on the upper end of his next list, with maybe Pac-Man being lower-end and near/next to Jr. since both got good results in 2015 but got dropped by their high-profile mains.

I'm guessing since 29 characters are left to rank he'll do a Mid-Tier and a Low-Tier list, but the line's going to be blurred by the bottom of a 14-15 mid-tier list.

 

[wedl!!]

the peach high tier meme is eternal, rofl.

im surprised he put wii fit above mewtwo.

you need to please the drones who still think shes good because they saw vines of combos on FG players and as we all know, combos=good character (see: @Ffamran's lengthy rants on Falco)

also because logistics of ""high tier"" and zero needs that ad revenue from making a long video. i think peach is likely the worst character in that tier. mewtwo is better, too.

 

[Browny]

While this may be Zer0's final tier list, I fear Yoshi has a way to fall as the meta progresses. Here are some things that are wrong with Yoshi since people tend to overestimate the character:

• Poor grab game - slow grabs with bad FAF and no true combos. Command grab is slow and risky. Frame 6-7 grab is the best move in the game and Yoshi suffers for having not having it
• Few if any disjoints - Grabs are disjointed but are Yoshi's only disjoints and can't be spaced safely or clank with other disjoints.
• Poor microspacing - Yoshi can macrospace all over the stage but microspacing is poor. He's got a lot of FAF on his low range tilts.
• Hurtbox/Hurtbox shuffling - Yoshi's tilts and f-airs are easily destroyed by every little shift in character position.
• Shield radius - Shield is one Yoshi head shorter than Yoshi. He block attacks closer to the ground and not as encompassing as other character's his size. Other characters have a larger perfect shield zone than Yoshi. That gives him a clumsy shield game where he is damned if he shields, damned if he doesn't.
• Poor jumpsquat, poor dash to neutral.
• Cloud meta - much worse for Yoshi than Sheik/Diddy/ZSS metas. Previous metas were much better for Yoshi than the current one. To be honest, we're at the point in the meta where good players are abandoning mid-high tiers for top tiers so it's unlikely Yoshi can do much better than he's done other than a savant-like player doing freaky technical things with him.

Mewtwo is a better Yoshi. He has better grabs, better shield, better F-air, better B-air, better tilts, better landing B-reversed command grab thing, better projectile (frame 6 release on charge), better kill set-ups, equitable safety in the air due to best air-dodge in the game and good up-B weighed against Yoshi's heavy armor. He only has worst weight and larger hurt-box, but technically is much faster and has more potential.

Mewtwo is nothing like Yoshi... nothing.

 

[ARGHETH]

Well in the video he clearly states he bases this part of the list off of TOURNAMENT RESULTS, so I can see why he has Peach in there (Kei,Umeki,Slayerz) and why WFT is above Mew2 (Rin,John #s)

EDIT: Wait I could've sworn he said something about tourney results in the video...I need a break

He did, in the first part (~0:22).

 

[Sinister Slush]

Pretty good tier list so far. I personally would have Luigi lower, but it fits his criteria pretty soundly.
Surprised he didn't mention The Wall's Yoshi. He's number 1 or 2 on his region's PR.
I do think Mewtwo is better than some of these characters, but I find it hard to place him in this tier. It just wouldn't line up by ZeRo's criteria.

Not degrading or anything just adding some more data to the table but in terms of like a whole TX PR he'd be placed like maybe Number 3-7
It's a toss up really cause we have a bunch of players that almost never play each other unless they all go to TGC, but Megafox Jband basically holds the top 2 in TX.

Without a doubt though Wall is #1 on Houston/Local PR since Trela stopped entering for now. Depending how his next few sets against Karna (sheik) and Fliphop (diddy) go at a later date in bigger tournaments he maybe lower since he's dropped a set or two to them just recently.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

(see: @Ffamran's lengthy rants on Falco)

Does Ffamran compete with his character? Honest question.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Jams.]

Not degrading or anything just adding some more data to the table but in terms of like a whole TX PR he'd be placed like maybe Number 3-7
It's a toss up really cause we have a bunch of players that almost never play each other unless they all go to TGC, but Megafox Jband basically holds the top 2 in TX.

Without a doubt though Wall is #1 on Houston/Local PR since Trela stopped entering for now. Depending how his next few sets against Karna (sheik) and Fliphop (diddy) go at a later date in bigger tournaments he maybe lower since he's dropped a set or two to them just recently.

How do the different regions in Texas stack up to each other?