Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Wintermelon43]

Das Koopa
I'm honestly surprised Kirby isn't in there as well. XD
Really unsure where he will go in the future since he seems to barely show up in tourneys these days. I honestly feel he'll end up like Dedede or Pac Man as a newbie/inexperience player clobberer.

Even more surprised that Robin is in there though.

Also regarding G&W has anyone placed well with him in any recent tournaments lately? I think he's one of the characters we seem to rarely ever talk about.

Probably because of Mikekirby being in attendance

 

[teddystalin]

Sounds more like you're trying to make me scared. I'm more afraid of Earth dropping Pit for Sheik because he'd be a hundred times better off with her.

Really, the whole thing is just a childish personal attack. I ask what Corrin has over Pit genuinely, and you've failed to give me an answer repeatedly. This time you went out of your way to say that you did just that. Why, exactly? I find it hard to take you seriously after, I believe, you claimed Corrin's Fspecial was a legitimate movement...



Thanks for treating me as a human being instead of some troll to bash. Like, geeze, I've had people do a complete 180 on me just because I don't think a certain character is viable. I'm a character loyalist myself but I don't just hate people because people don't like my character.

The proliferation of character loyalists (here and in general) can lead to some poorly-rationalized outbursts, the most notable being the page and a half of Greninja craziness following iStudying's big wins at BEAST. The comments there went from celebration to "I told you so" to "**** the haters" so fast. Unfortunately, in this case, you got that label and things got personal. It's a nasty practice overall and derails this thread. I don't think any characters' mains wants a reputation as a bunch of boors, so let's all be civil, yeah?

Earth's results with Corrin have been garbage up until this point, remember? You only took note once he did well... Earth has used Corrin exclusively for a few tournaments. What can we infer from this? Nothing else, that's what.

...That being said, it's only his second tournament with Corrin. IMO drowning in pools with a 5-day old character means less than making top 4 with one that's been out for over a month. Premature to speculate on how these compare to his normal Pit results.

People are losing to Corrin because they're trying to bumrush him instead of playing patient, just like what people did with Luigi and Ryu. Corrin pushes harder against those playing the matchup wrong then Pit can.

Honestly, I still can't think of a reason to pick Corrin over Pit besides like maybe the Sonic matchup. If anything Earth's considering Corrin as a secondary because the characters are so similar.

And playing patient didn't stop pre-patch Luigi from being dumb. This statement reminds me of the guy in the last thread who said everyone was just playing against Toon Link wrong... and then Hyuga, Sigma, and Hayato proceeded to rack up great enough results to make people consider TL a possible contender for top 20. Who knows what the future may hold.

 

[Das Koopa]

I'd say MOST of that Low Tier list is fine

But I'd:

+Roy, Falco, Bowser
-Mewtwo, Robin, Wii Fit Trainer

G&W doesn't really place well in spite of some of stuff he has.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Game&Watch is like, not much players.
He's always been like that, he's not Olimar tier in terms of that but we're close to that.
In terms of being allowed in low tier tours or not, it's tolerable i guess. Game&Watch's placement on tier list widely depends on what matters more for you: In theory, with his flaws, he sounds kind of bad but with a good amount of good, and in practice, he can applicate said good to earn some niche matchups vs some characters.
Oh btw did you notice how every G&W player minus Disagea who lost to a Link eliminated each other? Like Gimr lost to Disagea, and then Vanity vs Disagea which is battle of the G&Ws again.
Why are Mewtwo & Robin in this tour, idk. Why is Roy not allowed, no idea either.

 

[C0rvus]

Robin is definitely bad enough to be allowed in this tournament. So is Falco. Roy is pretty damn low tier as well.
I guess they didn't want Dath to clean house. Same with Kirby and MikeKirby.

All that aside, more low tier tournaments would be hella cool. I liked them during Brawl, and I would love an excuse to bring out like, Dedede or something.

 

[Das Koopa]

Shulk is top 3 at the low tier tourney. Robin(?) and Mewtwo are the other two, with a Lucina player out at 4th.

"This is a good result."

Also something something Lucina feeling it etc.

Dude knows how to use Monado Arts really well imo.

 

[Solfiner]

Shulk is top 3 at the low tier tourney. Robin(?) and Mewtwo are the other two, with a Lucina player out at 4th.

"This is a good result."

Also something something Lucina feeling it etc.

Dude knows how to use Monado Arts really well imo.

Eh, he uses Jump too much. He's really good at going deep off stage though. He needs to MALLC Fair more and just use Fair more in general. Also he needs to use Up smash a lot more to cover ledge get ups, it lingers for a very long time.

 

[Das Koopa]

Robin is definitely bad enough to be allowed in this tournament. So is Falco. Roy is pretty damn low tier as well.
I guess they didn't want Dath to clean house. Same with Kirby and MikeKirby.

All that aside, more low tier tournaments would be hella cool. I liked them during Brawl, and I would love an excuse to bring out like, Dedede or something.

Dath is keeping up with VoiD

I think it's evident that Robin and Mewtwo are on a bit of a different level, imo. Dath's only lost to VoiD so far. Robin's Checkmate is super-good.

Edit: VoiD won Low Tiers 3-2 in GF vs. Dath. Some super-close games, neither characters really seem low-tier. Now for Customs

 

[Jamurai]

I don't think G&W is underrated. The widely-held best G&W (Regi) doesn't do that well in his region at all, and he's fairly low down on their PR. Perhaps once people learn the matchup, his flaws become very much apparent, much like Jigglypuff or Little Mac (not saying G&W is quite as bad as these characters overall).

 

[Kofu]

Pretty unfortunate that the Game & Watch mains in the low tier tournament had to get eliminated by each other.

Game & Watch might have been a glass cannon in previous versions of Smash, but not so much now. His smash attacks are pretty average in power, all KOing around the 100% mark usually (though only when sweetspotted for FSmash and DSmash). Aside from that he's largely lacking in KO power. FTilt and DTilt will both KO at the ledge around 130%, and while the second hit of UAir is quote strong, it's hard to connect since the first hit doesn't link properly and the move's windbox precludes the opponent just falling into it unless they airdodge.

In this game he's more of a counterpoking character, if I have my terminology right. He can outbutton a lot of characters, but it takes some practice since he doesn't have a lot of room for error thanks to his light weight. His recovery and gimping game are both excellent, though, and offstage is where he shines.

He's probably just a little outside of low tier though I wouldn't be too bugged if he was placed there. He has mediocre results but some potential to do a little better. I feel that a lot of his matchups are even, or right around there.

 

[Fatmanonice]

No character screams "pick up and play" as much and at the same time is a contender for 1st place in a major. I'm actually happy. Know why? Because people will finally start showing some respect to Sheik players. Playing Sheik isn't an auto-win, guys. She actually requires a bit of skill.

Edit: Cloud is now the new Little Mac of Smash Bros. Annoying onstage, hilarious offstage, hated everywhere.

Except his offstage isn't that bad. Yeah, he can get gimped but good luck getting him offstage early to begin with. Nair is so good that it can be used forward and backwards, fair/dair can kill with both their sweet and sour spots and have hitboxes that are roughly the size of Cloud himself, and a limit Climhazard is very hard to punish outright.Unlike Little Mac, Cloud can edgeguard his opponents better than most of his opponents can edgeguard him.

Link is a hard matchup for Villager?

Two words: Hylian Shield. If Link it is standing still or ducking, it blocks fair, bair, and Lloid, and the only place he can be hit is literally his face. Like Megaman, Link has so many different types of projectiles that pocketing them is kind of pointless. Close quarters, Link has more options thanks to his reach. Like against most people, Villager has the advantage off stage but getting Link in that position is kind of difficult, again, thanks to Link being immune to fair/bair if he's staying in one spot and not just mindlessly attacking. Villager's crap range and super punishable grab hurts too. Toon Link is even worse because it's all the same problems as Link but with better comboing ability and overall mobility. People may not think of this match up as hard but that's because a lot of Link's are too aggressive and don't realize that they can literally stand still and shut down most of Villager's camping options in the process.

 

[PK Gaming]

Sounds more like you're trying to make me scared. I'm more afraid of Earth dropping Pit for Sheik because he'd be a hundred times better off with her.

Earth's results with Corrin have been garbage up until this point, remember? You only took note once he did well... Earth has used Corrin exclusively for a few tournaments. What can we infer from this? Nothing else, that's what.

Really, the whole thing is just a childish personal attack. I ask what Corrin has over Pit genuinely, and you've failed to give me an answer repeatedly. This time you went out of your way to say that you did just that.

Hoo boy

Forgot what I said about Earth, as it was a total misstep on my part. Regardless, his results wasn't the crux of my argument to begin with. He's very clearly not the only one doing well with Corrin.

The meat of my post was mostly referring to all of those instances where you say things like "I can't think of a reason to use Corrin over Pit" and "people are losing to Corrin because they're trying to bumrush him instead of playing patient and mean it. Like, where do these assumptions come from? It's completely unfounded. Really, instead of calling me out for not backing up my claims, why don't you practice what you preach? But fine, i'll humor you. What Corrin has over Pit is:

-Better damage
-Better KO options
-A better neutral
-Better combo ability
-Better tools to deal higher tier characters

And all of these culminate in a superior character. And when you predictably try to argue why what I've said isn't the case, i'll pick apart your counterargument piece by piece, and actually supply video evidence to back up my claims.

I find it hard to take you seriously after, I believe, you claimed Corrin's Fspecial was a legitimate movement...

When did I ever say that. And for that matter, what are you even talking about?

 

[Das Koopa]

Custom Mii Brawler looks a little nuts. Keeping up with Custom VoiD Sheik.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Speaking of doing things, i saw JAG's Wario get bodied by Ryo's Ike. I don'y know how bad the matchup is, but it was really sad to watch that Wario

Wario struggles with swords in general because his range is lousy for most of his attacks and all his aerials are almost literally him throwing his body at his opponent. are especially rough and vs is arguably vs levels of skewed.

 

[Das Koopa]

VoiD won both Low Tiers and Customs tournies.

 

[Djent]

Custom still lost to who was running Paralyzing Penetrating Needles (EDIT: which are apparently better than I remember them being). The game count was very much in VoiD's favor across both sets IIRC (3-2 and 3-1, with one of Nick's wins coming from his ZSS on Halberd). There may have been a time when this character's kill power was a little much, but I don't understand how people still think (s)he's potentially abusive compared to (developed) Sheik and $11.98. I'm not sure (s)he'd crack top 10 even if (s)he got to change moves/sizes in default.

 

[Tri Knight]

Except his offstage isn't that bad. Yeah, he can get gimped but good luck getting him offstage early to begin with. Nair is so good that it can be used forward and backwards, fair/dair can kill with both their sweet and sour spots and have hitboxes that are roughly the size of Cloud himself, and a limit Climhazard is very hard to punish outright.Unlike Little Mac, Cloud can edgeguard his opponents better than most of his opponents can edgeguard him.



Two words: Hylian Shield. If Link it is standing still or ducking, it blocks fair, bair, and Lloid, and the only place he can be hit is literally his face. Like Megaman, Link has so many different types of projectiles that pocketing them is kind of pointless. Close quarters, Link has more options thanks to his reach. Like against most people, Villager has the advantage off stage but getting Link in that position is kind of difficult, again, thanks to Link being immune to fair/bair if he's staying in one spot and not just mindlessly attacking. Villager's crap range and super punishable grab hurts too. Toon Link is even worse because it's all the same problems as Link but with better comboing ability and overall mobility. People may not think of this match up as hard but that's because a lot of Link's are too aggressive and don't realize that they can literally stand still and shut down most of Villager's camping options in the process.

Literally the best way to fight Villager as Link. Too many disregard the Shield. Link's got a fantastic walk speed. Unlike Tink, Link is actually able to Walk full-speed and still keep the shield up. Against any zoner, this is a valuable ability.

But most people don't know how to walk so.... you know what, I'll keep my mouth shut on that subject lol

 

[juddy96]

Glitch might not be the most stacked tournament ever but when was the last time (if ever) a solo got top 8 in a big tournament in the US? 250ish people here and Dandy Penguin makes top 8, his most notable victory being a 2-0 over DJ Jack

I know ImHip has used his combo to make it far in some of the 2GGT's, but as far as solo go this is different. Dandy is ranked #3 in North Carolina, his most notable result on a regional scale being 9th at Tipped Off 11.

 

[shrooby]

I'm assuming none of you experienced custom VoiD first hand... The crazy the stuff he'd do with Paralyzing Needles... And the custom Grenade... #_#
When he was training for EVO he grinded custom Sheik hard. Back then he wasn't nearly as good as he is now though.
But this tournament unleashed custom VoiD again. (I had a feeling he'd win it lol)

 

[Das Koopa]

Dath took VoiD's Sheik to Game 5 in Winner's Semis. Robin's definitely not a low tier character at all, Checkmate by itself is insanely good lol

 

[|RK|]

...Did Dath just take VoiD to game 5, close situation?

 

[Djent]

Spoiler: Top 8 Chars @ Glitch

x2
x2
x1
x1
x1
x1

 

[PK Gaming]

Robin's Down throw to Uair is insanely clutch and the reason why I could never place the character below mid tier in good faith.

Like, no matter how hard you beat on that character, the threat of grab killing you at like ~90% is definitely something that needs to be considered.

 

[Jaguar360]

Custom still lost to who was running suboptimal Paralyzing Needles. The game count was very much in VoiD's favor across both sets IIRC (3-2 and 3-1, with one of Nick's wins coming from his ZSS on Halberd). There may have been a time when this character's kill power was a little much, but I don't understand how people still think (s)he's potentially abusive compared to (developed) Sheik and $11.98. I'm not sure (s)he'd crack top 10 even if (s)he got to change moves/sizes in default.

VoiD was running Penetrating Needles from what I saw. Paralyzing Needles are the super slow ones that stun. I did miss like 3-4 games though, so he might have been using them elsewhere.

I also saw VoiD using Pisces to good effect versus Llod's Peach. I've always thought Pisces to be underrated, though still slightly worse than Bouncing Fish.

What do Bayo/ZSS players think of the Bayo and ZSS matchup btw? Results seem to be leaning towards Bayo at this point with NickRiddle getting double eliminated by Bayo at Glitch, Pink Fresh beating Remzi and Nairo losing to Salem at KTAR.

 

[ARISTOS]

Glitch might not be the most stacked tournament ever but when was the last time (if ever) a solo got top 8 in a big tournament in the US? 250ish people here and Dandy Penguin makes top 8, his most notable victory being a 2-0 over DJ Jack

I know ImHip has used his combo to make it far in some of the 2GGT's, but as far as solo go this is different. Dandy is ranked #3 in North Carolina, his most notable result on a regional scale being 9th at Tipped Off 11.

Dandy is actually ****ing nuts, dude is so good.

Glad to see NC doing well

 

[Jaguar360]

Glitch might not be the most stacked tournament ever but when was the last time (if ever) a solo got top 8 in a big tournament in the US? 250ish people here and Dandy Penguin makes top 8, his most notable victory being a 2-0 over DJ Jack

I know ImHip has used his combo to make it far in some of the 2GGT's, but as far as solo go this is different. Dandy is ranked #3 in North Carolina, his most notable result on a regional scale being 9th at Tipped Off 11.

It was a while ago, but MVD 7th at Apex 2015 with mostly Duck Hunt, but used Little Mac to beat aMSa there. Not sure how relevant this is to today's meta though.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

VoiD was running Penetrating Needles from what I saw. Paralyzing Needles are the super slow ones that stun. I did miss like 3-4 games though, so he might have been using them elsewhere.

I also saw VoiD using Pisces to good effect versus Llod's Peach. I've always thought Pisces to be underrated, though still slightly worse than Bouncing Fish.

What do Bayo/ZSS players think of the Bayo and ZSS matchup btw? Results seem to be leaning towards Bayo at this point with NickRiddle getting double eliminated by Bayo at Glitch, Pink Fresh beating Remzi and Nairo losing to Salem at KTAR.

Hold the phone, Void used Pisces? That's really cool and now I'm even sadder that I missed the chance to watch the stream live.

Although didn't it and Jellyfish get spared the various nerfs Bouncing Fish got?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Hoo boy

Forgot what I said about Earth, as it was a total misstep on my part. Regardless, his results wasn't the crux of my argument to begin with. He's very clearly not the only one doing well with Corrin.

The meat of my post was mostly referring to all of those instances where you say things like "I can't think of a reason to use Corrin over Pit" and "people are losing to Corrin because they're trying to bumrush him instead of playing patient and mean it. Like, where do these assumptions come from? It's completely unfounded. Really, instead of calling me out for not backing up my claims, why don't you practice what you preach? But fine, i'll humor you. What Corrin has over Pit is:

-Better damage
-Better KO options
-A better neutral
-Better combo ability
-Better tools to deal higher tier characters

And all of these culminate in a superior character. And when you predictably try to argue why what I've said isn't the case, i'll pick apart your counterargument piece by piece, and actually supply video evidence to back up my claims.



When did I ever say that. And for that matter, what are you even talking about?

Keep in mind that as much as Lance might be bandwagoning Pit too hard, you're bandwagoning Corrin too hard. At about an equal level.

Your last claim is completely unproven atm, takes a lot more than a month to start nailing down MUs due to a lack of time for counterplay to developed Corrin playstyles. When you include Dark Pit your second point is questionable, Side B is kinda amazing on D.P. Neutral is also questionable, and I wouldn't call either character exactly amazing at combos.

You also didn't list Pit's advantages at all: better projectile, reflector, recovery, a number of mobility specs, edgeguarding, etc.

I'd also rather have Pit's kill throw than one of Corrin's, but kill throws are pretty far down the list of things to have anyways.

 

[Nu~]

Credit to Furil THE KING for ripping Pac Man's grab (might not be 100% accurate but it lines up with how the move is so it seems.)

Is there ANY doubt now?

Things like this make me ask if Pacman was designed to be bad lol

 

[Das Koopa]

So, Danny Penguin's Duck Hunt Dog is 2 games up on DC's Bayonetta.

Edit: 3-0 and a handshake.

 

[Big-Cat]

So this happened today at a local. A Little Mac won a 64 man tournament, no set losses. The man had quite possibly the best neutral I've seen in Smash to date. Had I not applied my neutral concepts, I would've been destroyed harder than I was.

I seriously think this might be the most slept on character in the game. He made the whole ****ty recovery thing irrelevant.

 

[C0rvus]

Really cool to watch Dandy Penguin on stream. Gotta wonder though, how on earth did DC get into top 8? Easy bracket? Did he coast on Bayo jank? He definitely didn't know that matchup, and he got blown up. I'll have to watch some more Dandy in the future though. Always love me some pupper.

 

[Jaguar360]

Hold the phone, Void used Pisces? That's really cool and now I'm even sadder that I missed the chance to watch the stream live.

Although didn't it and Jellyfish get spared the various nerfs Bouncing Fish got?

Yeah, Pisces and Jellyfish have the kill power and damage that BF lost.

I'm not sure how much VoiD used Pisces today, though I did see him talking about it fondly on Twitter haha.

Really cool to watch Dandy Penguin on stream. Gotta wonder though, how on earth did DC get into top 8? Easy bracket? Did he coast on Bayo jank? He definitely didn't know that matchup, and he got blown up. I'll have to watch some more Dandy in the future though. Always love me some pupper.

He did beat NickRiddle and Dunnobro. Nick got 17th because of him and Pink Fresh.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Man I forgot how clever Duck Hunt is to watch. Character has a lot of really cool stuff.

 

[Das Koopa]

Also, Dath will be fighting Danny presumably after Pink Fresh and Seibrik are done. So... Robin vs. Duck Hunt. I get the impression that Duck Hunt's tools for precision and distanced fighting/custom strings might be why he sees success overseas. Lab-heavy looking character with iffy reward for the investment.

 

[juddy96]

Really cool to watch Dandy Penguin on stream. Gotta wonder though, how on earth did DC get into top 8? Easy bracket? Did he coast on Bayo jank? He definitely didn't know that matchup, and he got blown up. I'll have to watch some more Dandy in the future though. Always love me some pupper.

Lost in pools to Remzi before beating NickRiddle, Dexter, and DunnoBro

 

[PK Gaming]

Keep in mind that as much as Lance might be bandwagoning Pit too hard, you're bandwagoning Corrin too hard. At about an equal level.

Your last claim is completely unproven atm, takes a lot more than a month to start nailing down MUs due to a lack of time for counterplay to developed Corrin playstyles. When you include Dark Pit your second point is questionable, Side B is kinda amazing on D.P. Neutral is also questionable, and I wouldn't call either character exactly amazing at combos.

You also didn't list Pit's advantages at all: better projectile, reflector, recovery, a number of mobility specs, edgeguarding, etc.

I'd also rather have Pit's kill throw than one of Corrin's, but kill throws are pretty far down the list of things to have anyways.

With all due respect, I don't want to hear that from someone who is incredibly, extraordinarily, unequivocally and transparently biased towards Ike.

Am I excited about Corrin? Absolutely, but there is nothing wrong with a little enthusiasm towards a new character. Do I constantly make absurd sweeping statements like "There is no reason to use Ike over Corrin" or come up with flimsy excuses to defend said character from valid criticism? No, so I think it's a little much to be placed in the same group as Lancer.

Secondly, I didn't need to list Pit's advantages; I only listed the advantages that Corrin had over Pit that made her a better character in my eyes. And Corrin can convert into fairly damaging strings from her aerials... Her combo game is very clearly one of her strong points, which leads me to believe that you haven't been keeping up with her metagame if you don't think its better than Pit's. And you're completely off your rocker if you think D.P's side B (a slow yet powerful option) is even remotely on the same level as absurdly solid Corrin's Side B. A move that is literally one of the cornerstones of her neutral.

 

[Aaron1997]

Really cool to watch Dandy Penguin on stream. Gotta wonder though, how on earth did DC get into top 8? Easy bracket? Did he coast on Bayo jank? He definitely didn't know that matchup, and he got blown up. I'll have to watch some more Dandy in the future though. Always love me some pupper.

It wasn't easy bracket. DC Beat Nick Riddle and dexter. (who beat Seagull Joe)

Edit: d

 

[C0rvus]

Dang, okay. Guess I'll check myself then. Shockingly poor performance for someone who beat NickRiddle. Guess Bayo can make miracles happen.
Speaking of 5.99, this Seibrik set is depressing to watch. It's like watching the game die before my eyes somehow.

 

[ARISTOS]

Seibrik got absolutely demolished.

I think he respected Bayo too much in general but every hit led to unbelievable conversion