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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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BunbUn129

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Doesn't this apply to all characters in all fighting games? Some are just hated less; some are just hated more. Still kind of ironic that Cloud's the one bringing despair and not Sephiroth... Sephiroth for Smash 5 as an OP monster that 0:100 everyone, but goes 50:50 with Cloud. :p


Most newbies just don't understand jack. There's a reason why button-mashing happens at low-level play in all fighting games and games like it such as hack 'n' slash games. Whether or not they grow out of it depends on them. So, it's not just Melee; it's pretty much all fighting games to even all games. Melee just happens to be the most popular competitive Smash, but even then, in Smash 4, you've seen players try for combos and setups not understanding a damn thing about it e.g. Sheik's D-throw to Vanish doesn't really work at low percents or even failing Diddy and Luigi's D-throw setups in the pre-patch days. I've got bored of playing on the 3DS and FG, so I decided to spam one single move in each match or do absolutely nothing, but move around. You'd be surprised to see people, the average players, completely lost trying to figure out a player just spamming Captain Falcon's Utilt, Fox's Phantasm, or standing in place with rapid jabs. It's really pathetic; this need to win, self-affirmation, and memetic culture.
I've gotten around spamming Dimensional Cape far too often. Also, you'll be surprised to see how many players will fail to punish a whiffed Shuttle Loop. Some players just aren't very bright.
 
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meleebrawler

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Lucas's zoning game doesn't look very impressive at a glance, mainly because his anti-zoning game is incredibly versatile. Zair is the low commitment option for swatting low-power projectiles, the stick reflects projectiles incredibly fast and powerfully for it's relative safety, his own PK Fire has a hurtbox to absorb even the strongest charged moves and of course PSI Magnet for healing.
The only zoning he can't answer is needles, but then neither can anyone else.
 

juddy96

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Despite Taiheita's performance at Sumabato, I am still convinced Lucas is garbage. I mean, Taiheita tied with Shimitake, who got last place in his Round 2 pool at Genesis. Shimitake, GimR, and Shofu got the same placing. Some decent players got that placing as well, such as Wizzrobe, Sol, Espy, Aphro, and Keitaro, but it still isn't very impressive. Besides, this is Lucas' only good result like ever.

Results aside, Lucas is bad in theory and we already know this. Grab is bad, profit off of grab is meh unless youre a footstool master, reliant on sweetspots, nair is easily SDI-able, pk fire is mediocre and he has no other long-range options, doesn't win any relevant matchups, yadda yadda yadda.
What. This logic is terrible, especially when it comes to Japanese tournaments. Why would you ever look at who he tied with, that is irrelevant? Japanese tournaments can have guys who finished 33rd have better wins than dudes in 9th, it's all about who they beat. And Taiheita beat some very solid opponents, Atelier #2 Rosa in Japan and 4th at Sumabato 7, Sigma #2 Toon Link in Japan and 2nd at Sumabato 7, the always dangerous Shogun #2 Fox in Japan who beat Komorikiri at Sumabato 7, Kie #2 Peach in Japan with many top 8 placings, and the versatile Kamemushi, the #2 Cloud and #1 Mega Man in Japan. He only lost to Komorikiri and Edge, which is extremely impressive imo.
 
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Diddy Kong

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Well, guess I'll put my money where my mouth is and collect some hard data, to serve as an example.

I.

Let's take a look at the Smashboards tournament ranking results (by character) for events from Feb 1st - Now:



Several interesting things jump out, but let's break it down.

II.

The percentages are the % of players (of that character) who placed at the corresponding levels. In theory, this should be a similar spread for characters of all skill levels, if we assume that that players are themselves automatically filtering for tiers and only playing their best character(s).

In more advanced theory, we'd expect to see a slight tilt for higher-tier characters having higher percentages, merely because the most competitive "spike" mindset players (who win more as a group) will gravitate towards them.

We see important exceptions to this trend:

We all know that :4yoshi: has a top-level problem, but according to the data :4villager: and :4greninja: suffer similar fates in the aggregate smash community. Yes, iStudying and Ranai have made their few wins pretty big ones, but the general trend within this period still stands.


Always just short.

:4rob: and :4myfriends: are disproportionately played by people who perform really well with them. ROB is actually just, really strongly performing period.

Shockingly (to me), :4zss: wins relatively rarely for the pool of players that play her; she's more popular with the broader smash community than we (I?) assumed.

I've long said that feminine characters (including Jiggs), extreme heavyweights, and :4drmario: specifically all have abnormally high character loyalty such that they are played disproportionately by experienced mains only.


But muh wifu!

I've also suggested in private that this has a radical warping effect on win-rates relative to tier strength--and we see that here. All of those characters exhibit abnormally high Top 16 or Top 8 placement rates relative to the number of players using them--ESPECIALLY :4charizard: and :4dedede:, who may be even more dominant at lower level play than we suspected.

Curiously :4wario: is included in this pattern while :4lucina: is not, which is an important lesson about gender identity and assumptions.

III.

Returning to the top of the rankings, we see some surprising results. We can get a general placement score by combining the top 16/8/1 placements, weighted significantly towards the latter. We can see that 5/6ths of the entire cast falls within one standard deviation of the average score, with all the outliers being on the top.

The elephant in the room is that :4cloud: is king, and a whole boatload of people are both playing and winning with :4mario: at all levels of play. Looking back historically, this was no February fluke; Mario has been popular (and unlike Falcon, winning) everywhere for a long time.


Zero might not be worried about them, but this is currently the most typical Grand Finals in Smash 4.

What's striking is just how much stronger performing these two characters were over this period, about an entire standard deviation each above the others. In fact, if you were to turn this into a results list, it might look pretty shocking:

TOP LEVEL VIABLE:
SS: :4cloud:
S: :4mario:
A+: :4diddy::4bayonetta::4sheik:
A-: :4falcon::4corrin:
B+: :rosalina::4rob::4ness:
B-: :4metaknight::4zss::4fox::4luigi:
C+: :4yoshi::4pikachu::4sonic::4myfriends::4ryu:

NOT TOP LEVEL VIABLE:
C-: :4tlink::4marth::4villager::4littlemac::4greninja::4link::4peach::4mewtwo:
D+: :4wario2::4dedede::4kirby::4bowser::4falco::4pit::4darkpit::4bowserjr::4lucario::4feroy::4ganondorf::4dk:
E+: :4gaw::4robinm::4megaman::4jigglypuff::4lucas::4palutena::4shulk::4wiifit::4samus:
E-: :4lucina::4charizard::4drmario::4pacman::4olimar::4duckhunt::4zelda:

Note: I didn't include the Miis, because we (as a community) don't play with them much. (So there isn't enough data to submit for analysis.)

IV.

Now, I already here you protesting: Results don't automatically equal tiers.


Wait, who said anything about tier lists? I never said tier list. You said tier list!

Results are reality, tiers are theory--an expectation of future reality at a given level of play. The problem is that defining that level of play is hard, and almost everyone ends up overshooting.

We like to say that a tier list is exclusively supposed to measure "top-level play", but what exactly is top level play? Is it just Zero?


THE OFFICIAL TOP LEVEL SMASH 4 TIER LIST
Zero Tier: :4diddy::4sheik:
Not-Zero Tier: Everyone Else.


A tier list may be top-level, but even top-level should be a considerable range.

What if we limit our results data to just the top 500 ranked players? That's a really small pool of the millions of players that play Smash, but it turns out that the overwhelming majority of the results in our rankings already come from those players. In fact, I originally intended to run two separate sets of data (all players and top 500 only), but there was no point since the results were the same. (Since it was the same data!)

In other words, the temptation to attribute this list to the mouth-breathing For Glory masses doesn't fly. Smashboards' ranking methodology isn't perfect and the data is often incomplete, but it should be fairly representative for the questions we are asking.

Results indeed aren't the same as tiers, but whenever they are at odds, the burden of explanation always falls on theory rather than reality. Results are never wrong, and can never be truly dismissed.

V.

To anyone who has been around competitive gaming long enough, it shouldn't be a surprise that the reality of which characters are actually winning the most has poor correlation with the echo chamber that is public opinion.







My shenanigans aside, this is a prime moment to reflect on both how limited the bounds of our own discussion are relative to the broader smash community and how we treat new users who offer us new perspectives. (Even if those new users are just a-hole moderators in thinly-veiled disguise.)

Why did a new user posting this information (albeit with minimal context) yield vitriol, reports, and zero likes? Why did the posts like mine poking fun at a new user get a whole bunch of likes?

Why is it that I can sit here typing all this out in advance, knowing with 100% certainty that this is exactly how it's going to go down?


Thanks for the internet points, suckas!

Yes, we're all cool Internet nerds who are great at video games, and God only knows I will take the prize for smug know-it-all who takes his wit too far. But we have got to cultivate a community that is not merely tolerant, but willing to engage with fresh faces (and the often... unconventional ideas they bring to the table).

"Git gud" is not a viable path to the future of Smash, even in the survival-of-the-fittest jungle that is the CCI thread.

Btw, my lawyers want me to remind everyone that alternate accounts are against the Global Rules of Smashboards and are considered major Terms of Service violations and grounds for banning.

VI.

Anyway, where were we? Ah, right:



Please discuss anything you think is out of place!
Great list! This is exactly what this thread needed!

I pretty much agree with everything you've stated, except that certain characters are not deemed competitively viable, namely the C Tier, but noticable exceptions I think are: :4mewtwo::4greninja::4lucario::4tlink::4villager::4dk::4darkpit::4pit:. Especially the Pokémon, DK and Toon Link are on the rise now. I do agree they are not quite 'there yet', but to deem them 'Not Top Level Viable' goes a little too far.

Alas, it does show who's dominating the current metagame. And am happy that :4diddy: beats :4sheik: in results. However, am quite troubled about :4cloud:'s dominance currently. This character is just a real pain in the ass to fight, I noticed from the get-go already. Amazing neutral, amazing speed for a swordie, amazing reach, good aerials and of course Limit Break.

Anyway, great post, wish I could like 1000 times again
 

Peppermint1201

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Lucas is actually pretty good in theory. He has high tier theory, but low tier results so we put him in mid, stating "He has potential to be high tier"

Actual grab is bad, but it has been buffed to not destroy the move (Like Link), profot off of grab is a TON, down throw has a ton of neutral air and other combos, and back and up throws are some of the best kill throws, Pk Fire is pretty good to get people away from you, he has z-air and Pk Fire for long range options, he has great edgeguarding due to down smash, he kills early due to smashes and kill throws, great smashes, great aierals, good range.

As for matchups, i'm pretty sure he DOES win a notable matchup but I forget what it is. There are muitiple top tier matchups, such as Rosalina and Villager, that Lucas does better in than Ness though.
All downthrow gets is nair (which is easily SDI-able) and footstool combos which are admittedly good but difficult to execute. And besides, in many matchups such as ROB it's not unreasonable for Lucas to only land a handful of grabs the entire game/set.

PK Fire is easy to powershield or just shield, and even if it hits it isn't that good, meanwhile zair just is not a long range option.

One smash attack that hits below the ledge is not "great edgeguarding."

His upsmash is just awful and his other two smashes don't kill particularly early, although I will concede that they are decent. Calling Lucas' aerials "great" is extremely suspect, and as mentioned above it's flat-out untrue to say he has good range.

Doing better than Ness in some matchups doesn't mean anything; Lucas and Ness are apples and oranges. That's like saying Toon Link is better than Meta Knight because he does better in the Diddy matchup.

What. This logic is terrible, especially when it comes to Japanese tournaments. Why would you ever look at who he tied with, that is irrelevant? Japanese tournaments can have guys who finished 33rd have better wins than dudes in 9th, it's all about who they beat. And Taiheita beat some very solid opponents, Atelier #2 Rosa in Japan and 4th at Sumabato 7, Sigma #2 Toon Link in Japan and 2nd at Sumabato 7, the always dangerous Shogun #2 Fox in Japan who beat Komorikiri at Sumabato 7, Kie #2 Peach in Japan with many top 8 placings, and the versatile Kamemushi, the #2 Cloud and #1 Mega Man in Japan. He only lost to Komorikiri and Edge, which is extremely impressive imo.
You're completely right and I've edited my post appropriately.
 
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Djent

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Also, it was his 2nd Smash 4 tournament. And he played the entire bracket in losers. It's kind of a huge deal.

BTW, that was the most interesting thing about top 8 IMO. 3 of the 4 people to make it in via the losers bracket had lost WR1 or WR2. This also contributed to their impressive win lists compared to Shimitake (who had an easier bracket and played 1/2 the number of matches).

Regardless of any of these comparisons, I'm happy to see Sonic, Pika, MM, and Lucas doing things.
 

FallofBrawl

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Footstools are not hard to execute..

And Lucas arguably has 3 kill throws, a hoohah, more aerials off of dthrow (I don't know where you got the idea that he can only Nair off of dthrow), that's not "meh" grab reward.

Lucas PK Fire is a zoning tool, but way better at anti-zoning, especially against physical items. The blast that comes out after hitting a non-transcendent object gives you stage control. Same applies with rope snake and his projectile eating.

He has more options for edgeguarding than dsmash.. Has a tether, an amazing up b that can be canceled on wall bounce into another, good 2nd jump, stalling in down b, Lucas can go out to gimp characters in a game where gimping is farfetched.
 

BananaBake

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Speaking of doing things, i saw JAG's Wario get bodied by Ryo's Ike. I don'y know how bad the matchup is, but it was really sad to watch that Wario
 

Solfiner

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Lucas' Zair is a good mid range poking tool that can combo into a free grab.

PK fire is great at killing momentum and practically unpunishable if you are decent at spacing.
 

Megamang

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Calling Lucas's zoning bad is suspect to me, when the characters that can outzone him I can count on one hand. Shiek,which is the unfortunate truth we find ourselves in that metal needles are somehow not a physical object and instead are a laser, Megaman in some situations but its a battle... probably M2.... greninja might give him trouble, but that one isn't free and he has trouble counterpoking the zair. There are a few more, but Lucas is definitely above average at zoning... Lol at looking at PK fire, saying its bad in certain situations, then looking at zair and saying 'it isn't a long range poke'... that is missing the point. zair is a safe ranged poke when used properly, and it is extremely powerful in terms of followups.
 

LancerStaff

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That said uh... neat info! And Pit/Dark Pit are incredibly low, with... Dark Pit having more than double the popularity? Did he rise because of the Electroshock buff, or was the edgier Pit always the more popular one?
I think he's always been the more popular one...

Related question: Who can land hits with Light Pit's arrows consistently?

(Yes, I'm sure it's more than competitive strength, but I wanted to bring up a point.)
Earth's pretty godly with arrows, but anybody decent with Pit will probably be sniping things fairly consistently.

I'm going to pull a reverse LancerStaff and say that Corrin is straight up a better version of Pit at the moment. They're obviously different characters, but they occupy a similar niche of being a "solid" choice in most match ups, and Corrin is outright better at it.

Oh, sweet, delicious irony.
People are losing to Corrin because they're trying to bumrush him instead of playing patient, just like what people did with Luigi and Ryu. Corrin pushes harder against those playing the matchup wrong then Pit can.

Honestly, I still can't think of a reason to pick Corrin over Pit besides like maybe the Sonic matchup. If anything Earth's considering Corrin as a secondary because the characters are so similar.
 

PK Gaming

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People are losing to Corrin because they're trying to bumrush him instead of playing patient, just like what people did with Luigi and Ryu. Corrin pushes harder against those playing the matchup wrong then Pit can.

Honestly, I still can't think of a reason to pick Corrin over Pit besides like maybe the Sonic matchup. If anything Earth's considering Corrin as a secondary because the characters are so similar.
If the best Pit player in the world has opted to use Corrin exclusively in a tournament, then that should ring warning bells. You can't spin that as "he's just using him as a secondary" because he didn't use Pit in that tournament, period.

I don't really need to refute the rest of your post since your argument is just as puerile as I expected it to be, but...

Do you still plan on living in a bubble of ignorance? Don't you want to improve as a player? Don't you want to be more knowledgeable and better at Smash? You keep pretending to be knowledgeable about Corrin (despite being horribly ignorant and biased against said character) and your extreme bias for Pit prevents you from looking at things in an objective light. Isn't there a part of you that knows what you're saying is complete and utter bull****? I'm bringing this up, because I used to be same way. I know what it's like let your pride and passion for a character completely dominate your viewpoint. But eventually (after being reigned in by a ton of people), I started taking a more impartial approach towards competitive fighters, and believe me, it was a good decision.

It sucks when a character you're passionate about doesn't get the recognition you think they deserve, and doubly so if a character you dislike ends up surpassing them. But that's reality. You have to learn to take the good and the bad. Shutting your eyes, indulging in ignorance and pretending to see what you want to see is the worst thing you can possibly do. It not only makes you look bad in front of others, but you're actively denying yourself the potential to become more knowledgeable about the game. To be become better.

Because deep down inside, you know you're better than that.
 
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Y2Kay

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Earth's been maining pit .... like forever, even in brawl. I can't even really imagine him maining another character besides him.

This doesn't necessarily mean he's dropping him tho

:150:
 
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Baby_Sneak

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Doesn't this apply to all characters in all fighting games? Some are just hated less; some are just hated more. Still kind of ironic that Cloud's the one bringing despair and not Sephiroth... Sephiroth for Smash 5 as an OP monster that 0:100 everyone, but goes 1:99 with Cloud. :p


Most newbies just don't understand jack. There's a reason why button-mashing happens at low-level play in all fighting games and games like it such as hack 'n' slash games. Whether or not they grow out of it depends on them. So, it's not just Melee; it's pretty much all fighting games to even all games. Melee just happens to be the most popular competitive Smash, but even then, in Smash 4, you've seen players try for combos and setups not understanding a damn thing about it e.g. Sheik's D-throw to Vanish doesn't really work at low percents or even failing Diddy and Luigi's D-throw setups in the pre-patch days. I've got bored of playing on the 3DS and FG, so I decided to spam one single move in each match or do absolutely nothing, but move around. You'd be surprised to see people, the average players, completely lost trying to figure out a player just spamming Captain Falcon's Utilt, Fox's Phantasm, or standing in place with rapid jabs. It's really pathetic and this need to win, self-affirmation, and memetic culture doesn't help.
No. It's because cloud has such a low execution barrier and he is so freaking good. people really hate that. Just look at 3s chun li.
 

Djent

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If the best Pit player in the world has opted to use Corrin exclusively in a tournament, then that should ring warning bells. You can't spin that as "he's just using him as a secondary" because he didn't use Pit in that tournament, period.
I agree that Earth's performance is evidence in Corrin's favor, but I have to temper it by mentioning that 1) he tried the same thing and drowned in pools at Suma 7, and 2) 4th place with Pit wouldn't have come as a big surprise either. I happen to believe Corrin is better than Pit, but that has much more to do with the fact that tons of people do well with her than anything Earth has done.
Because deep down inside, you know you're better than that.
TBH I was kind of put off by this, as it insinuates Lancer is being intellectually dishonest. If you really think this is true, the best thing to do would be to disengage (because what are you gonna do to convince him at that point?). But I'm not so sure it is true. People often don't "know" even those obvious things they should. This is something I've had to work on recognizing, and it's made me a more patient person when dealing with attitudes I see as foolish.

/soapbox OK, just Smash for the rest of the weekend, I promise.
 

BunbUn129

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To those complaining about Cloud and Bayonetta, and that they have overtuned moves--actually, to anyone complaining about overtuned moves in this game, and to anyone who is biting their nails and refusing to accept that these characters are most likely staying as they are:

What ever happened to the good old days, when people said "git gud," and "deal with it?" When I see people complaining about Witch Time, Cloud's Limit Break and up and down aerials, Sheik's fair and needles, ZSS's up aerial, MK's up aerial, and Ryu's up tilt, I get the feeling that half this community has never played Melee, or even knows anything about it. Actually, they sort of sound like they never played any other Smash game.

Before saying "too OP, plz nerf Sakurai,:"

..........

Remember :kirby64:, who had a frame 4 up tilt that dealt 14%, had a huge hitbox, and comboed into itself?

How about :foxmelee::falcomelee:, both of whom had a move that was active frame 1, invincible frame 1, jump-cancellable, and led into combos at any realistic percent? Or how :falcomelee: had a projectile that shut down the entire cast? Oh, and he happened to have frame 5 down aerial with 20 frames duration that spiked throughout. :foxmelee: had an up aerial that dealt 18% and comboed into itself. And that same up aerial and his up smash KOed below 100%.

Let's not forget :sheikmelee:, whose down throw could chain-grab half the cast and tech-chase the other half. Wait...what? She had a frame 5 forward aerial that dealt absurd knockback and sent everyone flying straight to the blast zone? Damn...

:jigglypuffmelee: is pretty crazy. She had one combo that destroyed these..."Space Animals?" Apparently they also happened to be the two best characters in the game. This combo killed them at, like, 25%! If only someone in Smash 4 could do that...hmm...

:icsmelee:"Wobble...wobbling?" I think that's what it was called. Anyway, this "two-in-one" character could lock any opponent for an inescapable death. I heard some people wanted to ban it!

:falco: came back for a brawl, and his lasers were even more oppressive! Should I also note that he could chain-grab with his down throw for 50%?

:dedede:this one had a frame 6 back aerial with a massive hitbox and 20 active frames. He could chain-grab some of the characters with his down throw at any percent! Good grief...

Is it worth mentioning :snake:? Because he had a frame 6 up tilt with huge range and a hitbox that appeared before he even moved his leg, and it also dealt 13% and KOed starting at 100%!

:popo:these two again. "You get grabbed, you die," they told me. I'm guessing they could chain-grab you to death, maybe?

:metaknight:Wow, where do I start? I'm really doubting what I heard. This warrior had 7 moves--yes, 7--that were active in fewer than 7 frames. He also had an up aerial that hit on frame 2, ended on frame 13, had an enormous hitbox, and comboed into itself. He apparently had this tornado move that was impossible to counter at close range and shut down the entire cast. He could fly? What, really? And he had this move where he swooped into the air. It hit on frame 8 and was absurdly powerful, and allowed him to fly away to safety!

Oh God, thank goodness we don't have this nonsense in Smash 4. At least not to the same magnitude. I wonder if all that actually happened...
 
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PK Gaming

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TBH I was kind of put off by this, as it insinuates Lancer is being intellectually dishonest. If you really think this is true, the best thing to do would be to disengage (because what are you gonna do to convince him at that point?). But I'm not so sure it is true. People often don't "know" even those obvious things they should. This is something I've had to work on recognizing, and it's made me a more patient person when dealing with attitudes I see as foolish.

/soapbox OK, just Smash for the rest of the weekend, I promise.
It's just a gut feeling I've had from some of the posts he's made. There's a familiarity.

Plus I've been watching a lot of Star Wars lately.
 
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Y2Kay

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Am I losing my mind or did some posts just disappear?

:150:
 
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shrooby

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It's been dealt with. Continue about your business as if nothing happened~
 

Kung Fu Treachery

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To those complaining about Cloud and Bayonetta, and that they have overtuned moves--actually, to anyone complaining about overtuned moves in this game, and to anyone who is biting their nails and refusing to accept that these characters are most likely staying as they are:

What ever happened to the good old days, when people said "git gud," and "deal with it?" When I see people complaining about Witch Time, Cloud's Limit Break and up and down aerials, Sheik's fair and needles, ZSS's up aerial, MK's up aerial, and Ryu's up tilt, I get the feeling that half this community has never played Melee, or even knows anything about it. Actually, they sort of sound like they never played any other Smash game.

Before saying "too OP, plz nerf Sakurai,:"

..........

Remember :kirby64:, who had a frame 4 up tilt that dealt 14%, had a huge hitbox, and comboed into itself?

How about :foxmelee::falcomelee:, both of whom had a move that was active frame 1, invincible frame 1, jump-cancellable, and led into combos at any realistic percent? Or how :falcomelee: had a projectile that shut down the entire cast? Oh, and he happened to have frame 5 down aerial with 20 frames duration that spiked throughout. :foxmelee: had an up aerial that dealt 18% and comboed into itself. And that same up aerial and his up smash KOed below 100%.

Let's not forget :sheikmelee:, whose down throw could chain-grab half the cast and tech-chase the other half. Wait...what? She had a frame 5 forward aerial that dealt absurd knockback and sent everyone flying straight to the blast zone? Damn...

:jigglypuffmelee: is pretty crazy. She had one combo that destroyed these..."Space Animals?" Apparently they also happened to be the two best characters in the game. This combo killed them at, like, 25%! If only someone in Smash 4 could do that...hmm...

:icsmelee:"Wobble...wobbling?" I think that's what it was called. Anyway, this "two-in-one" character could lock any opponent for an inescapable death. I heard some people wanted to ban it!

:falco: came back for a brawl, and his lasers were even more oppressive! Should I also note that he could chain-grab with his down throw for 50%?

:dedede:this one had a frame 6 back aerial with a massive hitbox and 20 active frames. He could chain-grab some of the characters with his down throw at any percent! Good grief...

Is it worth mentioning :snake:? Because he had a frame 6 up tilt with huge range and a hitbox that appeared before he even moved his leg, and it also dealt 13% and KOed starting at 100%!

:popo:these two again. "You get grabbed, you die," they told me. I'm guessing they could chain-grab you to death, maybe?

:metaknight:Wow, where do I start? I'm really doubting what I heard. This warrior had 7 moves--yes, 7--that were active in fewer than 7 frames. He also had an up aerial that hit on frame 2, ended on frame 13, had an enormous hitbox, and comboed into itself. He apparently had this tornado move that was impossible to counter at close range and shut down the entire cast. He could fly? What, really? And he had this move where he swooped into the air. It hit on frame 8 and was absurdly powerful, and allowed him to fly away to safety!

Oh God, thank goodness we don't have this nonsense in Smash 4. At least not to the same magnitude. I wonder if all that actually happened...
Well, back in the day, "Git gud" was about all you could do. I understand that complaining isn't usually* productive for personal improvement, but the way things were ain't always the way things are going to be.

Nearly everything on this list is pretty terrible game design, in my opinion, and complainants aren't wrong to say that certain things are over the line or baffling from a balance/design perspective.

Unfortunately, we seem to be back in another era of "Git gud" now that patches are over. This is a bummer, because lots of things could still be tweaked. At the very least, tons of characters could be safely buffed. I think stopping patches is a bummer because Smash is such an oddball fighting game that Nintendo should try to get as much real-life balance data from different design ideas as possible. In theory, Cloud can be gimped easily, and that's his weakness. Reality has shown this weakness to be overstated thus far.

TL;DR: You're right, but the fact that you're right isn't necessarily ideal, and will hopefully change in the future.

*You might be salt powered, in that your rage towards a move/tactic/character inspires you to improve against it. As an often negatively-motivated person, I salute you.
 

ARGHETH

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:metaknight:Wow, where do I start? I'm really doubting what I heard. This warrior had 7 moves--yes, 7--that were active in fewer than 7 frames. He also had an up aerial that hit on frame 2, ended on frame 13, had an enormous hitbox, and comboed into itself. He apparently had this tornado move that was impossible to counter at close range and shut down the entire cast. He could fly? What, really? And he had this move where he swooped into the air. It hit on frame 8 and was absurdly powerful, and allowed him to fly away to safety!
Considering there's a legitimate argument that he's the reason Brawl died...he might not be the best example.
 

RonNewcomb

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Considering there's a legitimate argument that he's the reason Brawl died...he might not be the best example.
Moreover a landing cancel glitch which gave everyone a simple juggle infinite killed Street Fighter Alpha 3 as a competitive game.
 

TTTTTsd

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Credit to Furil THE KING for ripping Pac Man's grab (might not be 100% accurate but it lines up with how the move is so it seems.)
Pac Man doesn't have a tether grab, so it should work.
I was curious, so I quickly rendered it. (I'm not entirely sure if it's correct, honestly)

Enjoy namco nightmare pacman
Is there ANY doubt now?
 
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LancerStaff

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If the best Pit player in the world has opted to use Corrin exclusively in a tournament, then that should ring warning bells. You can't spin that as "he's just using him as a secondary" because he didn't use Pit in that tournament, period.

I don't really need to refute the rest of your post since your argument is just as puerile as I expected it to be, but...

Do you still plan on living in a bubble of ignorance? Don't you want to improve as a player? Don't you want to be more knowledgeable and better at Smash? You keep pretending to be knowledgeable about Corrin (despite being horribly ignorant and biased against said character) and your extreme bias for Pit prevents you from looking at things in an objective light. Isn't there a part of you that knows what you're saying is complete and utter bull****? I'm bringing this up, because I used to be same way. I know what it's like let your pride and passion for a character completely dominate your viewpoint. But eventually (after being reigned in by a ton of people), I started taking a more impartial approach towards competitive fighters, and believe me, it was a good decision.

It sucks when a character you're passionate about doesn't get the recognition you think they deserve, and doubly so if a character you dislike ends up surpassing them. But that's reality. You have to learn to take the good and the bad. Shutting your eyes, indulging in ignorance and pretending to see what you want to see is the worst thing you can possibly do. It not only makes you look bad in front of others, but you're actively denying yourself the potential to become more knowledgeable about the game. To be become better.

Because deep down inside, you know you're better than that.
Sounds more like you're trying to make me scared. I'm more afraid of Earth dropping Pit for Sheik because he'd be a hundred times better off with her.

Earth's results with Corrin have been garbage up until this point, remember? You only took note once he did well... Earth has used Corrin exclusively for a few tournaments. What can we infer from this? Nothing else, that's what.

Really, the whole thing is just a childish personal attack. I ask what Corrin has over Pit genuinely, and you've failed to give me an answer repeatedly. This time you went out of your way to say that you did just that. Why, exactly? I find it hard to take you seriously after, I believe, you claimed Corrin's Fspecial was a legitimate movement...

TBH I was kind of put off by this, as it insinuates Lancer is being intellectually dishonest. If you really think this is true, the best thing to do would be to disengage (because what are you gonna do to convince him at that point?). But I'm not so sure it is true. People often don't "know" even those obvious things they should. This is something I've had to work on recognizing, and it's made me a more patient person when dealing with attitudes I see as foolish.
Thanks for treating me as a human being instead of some troll to bash. Like, geeze, I've had people do a complete 180 on me just because I don't think a certain character is viable. I'm a character loyalist myself but I don't just hate people because people don't like my character.
 

thehard

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Did anyone catch those Pugwest/Mr. E Marth dittos at Do or DI (on hitbox.tv)? Probably one of the slickest things I've ever seen in this game. Marth really seems to have a ton of follow-up options/mix-ups post-patch. I saw things like d-tilt > dancing blade, forward throw > f-air, dancing blade > uptilt... he's really fun to watch.

Mr. E won btw (went to Game 5)
 
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Teshie U

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If the best Pit player in the world has opted to use Corrin exclusively in a tournament, then that should ring warning bells. You can't spin that as "he's just using him as a secondary" because he didn't use Pit in that tournament, period.
Sometimes top players just use a different character to test the waters. He may have just wanted to go all Corrin, doesn't mean he thought Corrin was the best idea for every situation.
 

Das Koopa

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VoiD is tearing up Low Tier Singles at Glitch with Mewtwo. Side note: Marth wasn't allowed given his recent buffs, but Lucina was, and Lucina's also doing well. Might be indicative of Marth and Mewtwo's upwards mobility in the meta.

These are the legal characters btw:

Charizard
Little Mac
Wii Fit Trainer
Mii Brawler (1-1-1-1)
Mewtwo
Shulk
Jigglypuff
Duck Hunt
Game & Watch
Lucina
Ganondorf
Mii Gunner (1-1-1-1)
Mii Swordsman (1-1-1-1)
Palutena
Samus
Zelda
Robin
Dr. Mario
Link
King Dedede

dunno why Mewtwo and Robin are allowed but Falco and Roy aren't
 
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Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
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Mewtwo is probably tearing up the low tier brackets because he isn't low tier.

:150:
 

Vipermoon

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Did anyone catch those Pugwest/Mr. E Marth dittos at Do or DI (on hitbox.tv)? Probably one of the slickest things I've ever seen in this game. Marth really seems to have a ton of follow-up options/mix-ups post-patch. I saw things like d-tilt > dancing blade, forward throw > f-air, dancing blade > uptilt... he's really fun to watch.

Mr. E won btw (went to Game 5)
I'll have to go and watch it. I do want to mention that the better Marth doesn't necessarily win the Marth ditto in Marth dittos (in any game). With that said, I definitely think Mr. E is the better Marth. False, on the other hand, is the best Marth over Mr. E imo

Edit: there's no archives for something tha recent on the website. HitboxArena has a YT channel so I'll wait for that
 
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Nobie

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Earth mentioned using Pit for a match at Sumabato.
 

Wintermelon43

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Messages
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VoiD is tearing up Low Tier Singles at Glitch with Mewtwo. Side note: Marth wasn't allowed given his recent buffs, but Lucina was, and Lucina's also doing well. Might be indicative of Marth and Mewtwo's upwards mobility in the meta.

These are the legal characters btw:

Charizard
Little Mac
Wii Fit Trainer
Mii Brawler (1-1-1-1)
Mewtwo
Shulk
Jigglypuff
Duck Hunt
Game & Watch
Lucina
Ganondorf
Mii Gunner (1-1-1-1)
Mii Swordsman (1-1-1-1)
Palutena
Samus
Zelda
Robin
Dr. Mario
Link
King Dedede
Why the heck is Mewtwo, WFT, Game & Watch, and Robin legal, but not Bowser Jr., Bowser, And even Roy? Who was in charge of that list?
 

Das Koopa

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Why the heck is Mewtwo, WFT, Game & Watch, and Robin legal, but not Bowser Jr., Bowser, And even Roy? Who was in charge of that list?
Jr. was perceived as decent and received buffs and Bowser's not officially low tier (even though he totally is because of his comically bad landing options)

I dunno why Game & Watch being in is silly. G&W player just got eliminated by a Shulk player and G&W in general seems like a very faulty glass cannon.
 

Wintermelon43

Smash Champion
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Messages
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Jr. was perceived as decent and received buffs and Bowser's not officially low tier (even though he totally is because of his comically bad landing options)

I dunno why Game & Watch being in is silly. G&W player just got eliminated by a Shulk player and G&W in general seems like a very faulty glass cannon.
Great matchups and great combos. And his silly up smash.

I don't like Game & Watch, but I can use him as good as my pockets and Cloud because of this stuff.

As for Bowser and Bowser Jr., I mentioned them since I assumed low mid was allowed here too, going by Charizard, Lucina, Little Mac, and Dr. Mario being in here,
 
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ARGHETH

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Jr. was perceived as decent and received buffs and Bowser's not officially low tier (even though he totally is because of his comically bad landing options)

I dunno why Game & Watch being in is silly. G&W player just got eliminated by a Shulk player and G&W in general seems like a very faulty glass cannon.
But Robin isn't officially low tier either. He's only one spot below Bowser on the tier list.
 

DblCrest

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Das Koopa Das Koopa
I'm honestly surprised Kirby isn't in there as well. XD
Really unsure where he will go in the future since he seems to barely show up in tourneys these days. I honestly feel he'll end up like Dedede or Pac Man as a newbie/inexperience player clobberer.

Even more surprised that Robin is in there though.

Also regarding G&W has anyone placed well with him in any recent tournaments lately? I think he's one of the characters we seem to rarely ever talk about.
 
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