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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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NairWizard

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So you are saying my viewpoints align with reality? Aww, thanks!
Rather, I'm saying that something was unusual about the list if it came from the most likely source (an FG player, if you interpret the claim "based on the experience of me and my friends"); Little Mac being in bottom vs. Zelda being somewhere in C makes much more sense than the reverse for the typical FG player.

Basically, coming from an FG player, the top part of the list made sense, but the bottom was inconsistent.

Meanwhile, coming from Thinkaman, the bottom would have made sense, but the top would have been inconsistent.

The username is the giveaway, of course, you can't guess based on the tier list alone.
 
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Djmarcus44

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'Bout to play my boy Lucario in Pokken!

On topic... I'm still over here playing Kirby, lol. There's still more I can do as a player, despite the character's (serious) weaknesses.

So an idea for a topic: Where do you see your main's meta going?

Kirby has a poor neutral most of the time and meh disadvantage. But Samus is almost in the same boat, so her players seem to push her great advantage as far as they can.

I expect Kirby to go more in that direction; focus on making sure that whenever he wins neutral, he extends his great advantage as far as possible.

I've also been thinking (and maybe that's because I'm kind of obsessed with them) about getting copy abilities more often. I feel like most other characters focus on their special attributes more than we do. Copy abilities are for the most part treated as cute by commentators, and I don't see them used well often enough. I personally think that they're super-important for making Kirby's poor neutral a little better. Plus, Inhale is true from a sourspot utilt (which itself can come from other combos).

That's (a bit of) my opinion on Kirby; anyone have thoughts about their characters?

EDIT: Or... or Thinkaman's thing. Wow lol
I think that Mii Gunner's metagame has been trending in the positive direction since ROM made a good showing at Smash@SCU and a solid showing at Genesis 3.

Gunner probably is the best at edgeguarding Cloud due to the fact that Gunner's flame pillar covers the ledge for at least 40 frames when spaced properly. Spamming flame pillar at the ledge is a serious threat to Cloud's recovery (I was able to kill a Cloud player around my skill level at 60% by throwing him off of the ledge and spamming flame pillar). Gunner can also cover every ledge option with a combination of flame pillar and up smash if the opponent rolls from the ledge. Charge blast or fsmash can also cover every ledge option when timed properly.

Gunner beats Cloud in the neutral due to the safety and range of Gunner's fair (it is a transcendent projectile that outranges all of Cloud's moves except for blade beam). Gunner can also reflect blade beam if the opponent uses that move to keep Gunner out of the range of sh fair. In addition to the previous statements that I made about Gunner's ability to edgeguard Cloud, Gunner can also juggle Cloud pretty well since Gunner's up air outranges all of Cloud's landing options, and gundashing gives Gunner the mobility to cover Cloud's landing. Charge blast is also good for setting up a landing trap in this matchup. While Mii Gunner isn't that good at killing, the combination of decently fast killing options (frame 5 up tilt that kills around 135, Down tilt is frame 8 and kills around 130, and down smash is frame 9 and has good killing power for a smash attack) and good mixups that can kill (these follow ups are listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread). For these reasons, I think that Mii Gunner can at least go even if not beat Cloud.


Mii Gunner wins the neutral because Gunner is able to shut down Bayonetta's approaching options with charge blast, flame pillar, pivot ftilt, fair, and pivot fsmash while charging up charge blast in order to get her to approach.

While Bayonetta can combo Gunner pretty hard, Gunner can also deal damage against Bayonetta with a guaranteed throw combo along with a good edgeguarding game (flame pillar covers the ledge for at least 40 frames and it has more priority than Bayonetta's recovery options) and decent follow ups (these combos and follow ups are listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread). Gunner can also juggle Bayonetta decently with up smash (since it hits multiple times and it has long lasting hitboxes, it is pretty safe against witch time depending on the position of Bayonetta when she uses the move), and keep up with her landing options by using gundashing or trapping her landing with charge blast.

Bayonetta doesn't have the easiest time getting combos on Gunner since Gunner has multiple attacks that are safe against witch time. Gunner also doesn't get edgeguarded as hard by Bayonetta since Gunner's recovery is pretty safe against witch time (the only hitboxes on lunar launch are on a projectile that is shot under Gunner). Gunner can also do a good job of avoiding juggling by gundashing, stalling with reflector, using Lunar Launch, or using flame pillar. With good DI, I have also been able to get out of some of her attempts to combo into a second afterburner kick. For these reasons, I think that Mii Gunner can win this matchup, but more tournament results are needed to get a conclusive matchup ratio.
 
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Megamang

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Mhm. well, rather than discussing who was right and wasn't, what did we learn?

I think it is interesting Mario has been so successful, all while this thread mostly doubts him. I think there is a real value in having aerials that work rising, landing, and everywhere in between. Unlike most any other characters, you don't know what Mario is gonna do, exactly, when he has his back to you.

And again, grab game is a nice thing to have in this game.

The 'doing nothing' aka 'playing a good neutral' mantra is something that is interesting in this context. Mario being 'zoned out' isn't so scary when he just waits for the sword swing, then makes progress. Not to mention fireballs are great at... being fireballs, which makes zoning the plumber out harder.

When I was at BH5, there were some Mario players talking about secret kill confirm technology. Basically, landing dair ->PP usmash was a true combo in training mode, and it seemed like the only way to avoid it is to airdodge and that is more susceptible to earlier kills anyways, since the mario just charges a little longer and guarantees a hit (you land and suffer bad AD landing lag)... why don't we see this? Did it turn out to be wrong? Does DI ruin it? Is it just to hard to land a landing dair? I would think SHAD -> Dair hits the landing hit pretty easily and Mario is fast enough to hit those. What happened, Marios?


Did that post reveal that the Marios are too busy just cleaning up mid and low level tournaments and collecting their free money to worry about progressing his metagame at the top level?
 

~ Gheb ~

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The bit about D3 being really good at low-levels is very accurate.

The King thrives on matchup inexperience. If you face a decent D3 expecting a free win by going aggro and out-buttoning him, you're going to have an awful time (unless you're Fox who really can just stay on D3 forever but I digress).

I really need to study Big D and El_Bardo more. How those guys keep getting the placements they're getting is really something (also keep on the lookout for Andy from Mexico, dude's also super good).
That mexican DDD player's tag is Addy, I believe.

:059:
 

Thinkaman

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I think that Mii Gunner's metagame has been trending in the positive direction since ROM made a good showing at Smash@SCU and a solid showing at Genesis 3.
General consensus AFAIK has been that Cloud and Bayo are nasty for Villager, and that Villager is a better Mii Gunner.

Can you reconcile or explain these attitudes with your viewpoint?
 

ItsRainingGravy

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Thinkaman Thinkaman feelin' himself so hard right now he about to get arrested for public indecency, lol.

edit: to paint the barest fig leaf of content over this post, I don't think Corrin will end up in top tier. I think they're good, but I also feel like they have much more pronounced weaknesses than Bayo/Cloud/the rest of the commonly perceived top tier gang.
Yeah. Despite the positive points I raised about Corrin, they certainly aren't top tier. Corrin begins to struggle when someone is in their face. OoS Nair and other tools are nice, but Mario is a better CQC character. Plus: Recovering, KOing, and mobility are still issues in certain circumstances, so the top tier characters can easily capitalize on any of these weaknesses. Not having anything faster than frame 5 hurts up close. It isn't super terrible, better than Mewtwo at least. But still.

When I was at BH5, there were some Mario players talking about secret kill confirm technology. Basically, landing dair ->PP usmash was a true combo in training mode, and it seemed like the only way to avoid it is to airdodge and that is more susceptible to earlier kills anyways, since the mario just charges a little longer and guarantees a hit (you land and suffer bad AD landing lag)... why don't we see this? Did it turn out to be wrong? Does DI ruin it? Is it just to hard to land a landing dair? I would think SHAD -> Dair hits the landing hit pretty easily and Mario is fast enough to hit those. What happened, Marios?
A note about Landing Dair -> PP Usmash: It can be DI'd/SDI'd out of, it is less effective if an opponent jumps right before being hit, and it can be predictable. It DOES work, just not all of the time. Landing Dair -> Dsmash also works, but it is a shame that Dsmash doesn't KO earlier. Plus, it still has a small hitbox when compared to other moves/characters, but this is a general problem that Mario has anyways. His aerial mobility and SHAD help, but Landing Dair is a bit riskier of an option than how it might initially seem.
 
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Jams.

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That mexican DDD player's tag is Addy, I believe.

:059:
Andy and Addy are different players who both play :4dedede: and are PRed. They're actually right next to each other on the most recent PR I could find. Seems like they're from different cities though.

General consensus AFAIK has been that Cloud and Bayo are nasty for Villager, and that Villager is a better Mii Gunner.

Can you reconcile or explain these attitudes with your viewpoint?
I don't have any Mii Gunner experience, but based on what D Djmarcus44 said Gunner's fair is transcendent and Villager's slingshot is not, which makes a huge difference in the neutral game versus Cloud.
 
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Fatmanonice

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Well, the point is that Mario doesn't drop off until the tippy-top of nationals, and he has the player base and results to prove it.

I do agree that Mario is consistently strong at almost all levels of play.
I feel like this is because he boils down to good fundamentals and doesn't have that much of learning curve but offers a ton of creativity playstyle wise. Falcon's in a similar boat but has more weaknesses while Cloud is rightfully dubbed "Sword Mario" by a lot of people. Looking at the results you posted, you can definitely make an argument for learning curves playing a big role in popularity as well as heavy hitters doing well because they're the least forgiving against rookie players. Ganon, Dedede, and Little Mac aren't very good in the grand scheme of things but they can kill early with ease and steamroll players with basic bad habits. As for learning curves, characters like Megaman, Pac-Man, and Robin are extremely underwhelming if a person doesn't know how to play them because their strengths are not immediately apparent like Sheik, Diddy, and Bayo's and the reward for learning them is definitely skewed. People argue Sheik has a high learning curve but the rewards for learning the character are much higher than learning other high learning curve characters such as Peach, Shulk, and Duck Hunt.
 

Sneak Sneaks

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It is funny to think how everyone thought Sheik was gonna get nerfed some months ago, and seeing how everything is now...
 

Djmarcus44

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General consensus AFAIK has been that Cloud and Bayo are nasty for Villager, and that Villager is a better Mii Gunner.

Can you reconcile or explain these attitudes with your viewpoint?
Gunner is better at the neutral than Villager because Gunner's fair has transcendent priority (this means that Cloud or Bayonetta cannot cancel it out by throwing out a hitbox), and Gunner has superior mobility compared to Villager (Gunner moves faster than Villager and gains a mobility boost by gundashing with fair). Gunner has more priority on his/her projectiles (charge blast and flame pillar beat out most projectiles in the game), and this makes Gunner's projectiles better at walling out opponents. Gunner also has great burst mobility (gundashing gives Gunner the speed of a falcon kick without any landing lag) along with a good foxtrot with a speed of 1.6 that gives Gunner decent mobility overall.

Gunner's flame pillar is also better at edgeguarding a character like Cloud since it prevents characters from grabbing the ledge for at least 40 frames when spaced properly (while I haven't found exactly how long flame pillar lasts, I know that Gunner can act out of flame pillar while the hitbox is still active). Gunner can also cover all of the other ledge options by using up smash when flame pillar isn't spaced properly since up smash covers rolling and jumping, and those two options are the only ones that are not covered by a well spaced flame pillar. Charge blast or fsmash can also cover every ledge option when timed properly. While Villager has great edgeguarding options from the ledge, they can still be avoided by airdodges and picking the right options from the ledge.

While Villager's combo breaking nair and superior landing options are the main reasons why Villager is better than Gunner (Gunner's reflector is frame 3 but it's hitboxes are too weak to be used consistently), his landing options are not as useful against Cloud since they gets beat out by Cloud's juggling options. Gunner's landing mixups (gundashing, stalling with reflector, lunar launch, and flame pillar) are better for landing against Cloud since they can help Gunner move past Cloud instead of challenging Cloud's hitboxes (flame pillar is also good for preventing Cloud for getting under Gunner to juggle him/her). While Villager's recovery is better than Gunner's recovery, the difference between their recovery is mitigated by the fact that Cloud has some moves that can pop both of Villager's balloons.

Can you explain why Villager does terrible against Bayonetta? I thought that Villager didn't do too badly against her due to his advantage in the neutral.
 

BunbUn129

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It is funny to think how everyone thought Sheik was gonna get nerfed some months ago, and seeing how everything is now...
They did nerf Sheik. They decreased her weight by one unit, and made Vanish slightly weaker. They really killed her viability, sadly.

Now MK, ZSS, Bayonetta, Cloud, and Ryu are running around and killing everyone at 60%.
 
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irokex13

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"Gunner vs Cloud matchup analysis "]Gunner probably is the best at edgeguarding Cloud due to the fact that Gunner's flame pillar covers the ledge for at least 40 frames when spaced properly. Spamming flame pillar at the ledge is a serious threat to Cloud's recovery (I was able to kill a Cloud player around my skill level at 60% by throwing him off of the ledge and spamming flame pillar). Gunner can also cover every ledge option with a combination of flame pillar and up smash if the opponent rolls from the ledge. Charge blast or fsmash can also cover every ledge option when timed properly.

Gunner beats Cloud in the neutral due to the safety and range of Gunner's fair (it is a transcendent projectile that outranges all of Cloud's moves except for blade beam). Gunner can also reflect blade beam if the opponent uses that move to keep Gunner out of the range of sh fair. In addition to the previous statements that I made about Gunner's ability to edgeguard Cloud, Gunner can also juggle Cloud pretty well since Gunner's up air outranges all of Cloud's landing options, and gundashing gives Gunner the mobility to cover Cloud's landing. Charge blast is also good for setting up a landing trap in this matchup. While Mii Gunner isn't that good at killing, the combination of decently fast killing options (frame 5 up tilt that kills around 135, Down tilt is frame 8 and kills around 130, and down smash is frame 9 and has good killing power for a smash attack) and good mixups that can kill (these follow ups are listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread). For these reasons, I think that Mii Gunner can at least go even if not beat Cloud.
So, I'm an average at best Cloud main, so I may be wrong on this, but I heavily disagree with this analysis There is no way that Mii Gunner beats Cloud in neutral. Fair is simply not enough of a reason for a character to win neutral. Don't get me wrong, Fair is a fantastic move, but considering it is frame 10 and Cloud has significantly better mobility, faster aerials, and can just d tilt under them and hit Gunner while they are landing, it is not good enough to say that it is overbearing for Cloud.

Couple this with the fact that Gunner has no good way to pressure a Cloud that chooses to platform camp. If Cloud charges limit on a platform, what can Gunner do that Cloud can't just shield? All of their aerials are simply too slow. Gunner's up air is also horrendous at juggling Cloud. It's frame 17 with 22 frames of landing lag on a character with drastically worse aerial mobility than Cloud. Meanwhile, Gunner gets edge guarded and juggled decently hard by Cloud due to having sub par landing options.

Last, but not least, Gunner's kill power is just flat out worse than Cloud's. All of Gunner's mid-long range kill options are tame. Limit Blade Beam kills earlier than any of Gunner's mid-long range kill options. Gunner has kill setups, but that requires them to get up close to Cloud, who has the mobility and disjoint to keep Gunner out. And when Gunner finally gets in, they have to somehow avoid Limit Cross Slash while trying to land a hit.

Frankly, I don't see how this MU isn't just abysmal for Gunner.
 

san.

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So, I'm an average at best Cloud main, so I may be wrong on this, but I heavily disagree with this analysis There is no way that Mii Gunner beats Cloud in neutral. Fair is simply not enough of a reason for a character to win neutral. Don't get me wrong, Fair is a fantastic move, but considering it is frame 10 and Cloud has significantly better mobility, faster aerials, and can just d tilt under them and hit Gunner while they are landing, it is not good enough to say that it is overbearing for Cloud.

Couple this with the fact that Gunner has no good way to pressure a Cloud that chooses to platform camp. If Cloud charges limit on a platform, what can Gunner do that Cloud can't just shield? All of their aerials are simply too slow. Gunner's up air is also horrendous at juggling Cloud. It's frame 17 with 22 frames of landing lag on a character with drastically worse aerial mobility than Cloud. Meanwhile, Gunner gets edge guarded and juggled decently hard by Cloud due to having sub par landing options.

Last, but not least, Gunner's kill power is just flat out worse than Cloud's. All of Gunner's mid-long range kill options are tame. Limit Blade Beam kills earlier than any of Gunner's mid-long range kill options. Gunner has kill setups, but that requires them to get up close to Cloud, who has the mobility and disjoint to keep Gunner out. And when Gunner finally gets in, they have to somehow avoid Limit Cross Slash while trying to land a hit.

Frankly, I don't see how this MU isn't just abysmal for Gunner.
Fair is frame 10, but it has 12 frames of landing lag and propels Gunner back. Cloud's bair is frame 11 and fair is like frame 16-18 or something. Not much for frontwards-hitting aerials.

Gunner has ways to pressure a Cloud that platform camps. Grenades lock him in shield and allows for followups, missile has low end lag and deals moderate shield damage, bomb drop deals 2x% shield damage, and fair still exists for moderate pressure.

Gunner's kill setups are confirms off of fair, missile, bomb drop, and grenade, or general trapping, particularly at the ledge or high up with uair. Gunner doesn't need to get close if he doesn't want to.

It's definitely not abysmal at the very least. As far as disadvantaged vs advantaged goes, I have no idea.
 
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Jams.

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Really interesting to see R.O.B. doing that well. I'm curious, what are people thoughts on him now? He kind of fell off the radar from here for a while it seems.
ROB never gets much discussion because his metagame has been fairly stagnant and he has yet to have a breakthrough at a major event. He usually just gets mentioned in passing as barely relevant or barely not relevant, or is used as a benchmark to compare to more dynamic characters that have been making waves lately like Lucario and Greninja. I guess the main reason ROB isn't discussed at length is because there isn't really anything new to say (and he doesn't have any fanatical users that always try to redirect the current discussion to him despite multiple ROB mains frequenting this thread).

ROB's fundamental toolkit is not bad, he has a kill confirm off a grab, a kill throw, decent pokes, safe-ish spacing options, good projectiles, etc. Even in his bad matchups, he's usually not helpless because of these tools (most notably dthrow -> uair, which can end stocks at sub 60% with rage and bad DI). However, he has a lot of bad matchups in high and top tier because they can abuse his disadvantage state, and he can't match their reward because his damage per hit is bad. He'll probably drop further in the future as more characters realize their potential and overtake him unless ROB mains are able to make breakthroughs somewhere in his metagame. He'll always be at least somewhat of a threat because of his solid tools though.
 

Djmarcus44

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So, I'm an average at best Cloud main, so I may be wrong on this, but I heavily disagree with this analysis There is no way that Mii Gunner beats Cloud in neutral. Fair is simply not enough of a reason for a character to win neutral. Don't get me wrong, Fair is a fantastic move, but considering it is frame 10 and Cloud has significantly better mobility, faster aerials, and can just d tilt under them and hit Gunner while they are landing, it is not good enough to say that it is overbearing for Cloud.

Couple this with the fact that Gunner has no good way to pressure a Cloud that chooses to platform camp. If Cloud charges limit on a platform, what can Gunner do that Cloud can't just shield? All of their aerials are simply too slow. Gunner's up air is also horrendous at juggling Cloud. It's frame 17 with 22 frames of landing lag on a character with drastically worse aerial mobility than Cloud. Meanwhile, Gunner gets edge guarded and juggled decently hard by Cloud due to having sub par landing options.

Last, but not least, Gunner's kill power is just flat out worse than Cloud's. All of Gunner's mid-long range kill options are tame. Limit Blade Beam kills earlier than any of Gunner's mid-long range kill options. Gunner has kill setups, but that requires them to get up close to Cloud, who has the mobility and disjoint to keep Gunner out. And when Gunner finally gets in, they have to somehow avoid Limit Cross Slash while trying to land a hit.

Frankly, I don't see how this MU isn't just abysmal for Gunner.
Gunner's fair outranges Cloud's Dtilt (I said this before by mentioning that Gunner's fair outranges all of Cloud's moves except for blade beam. Since Gunner can control his/her aerial momentum when using fair, it can allow Gunner to avoid a dtilt if the fair isn't spaced properly. Also using dtilt under Gunner's fair is very punishable since Gunner's fair has only 12 frames of landing lag and Cloud's Dtilt has 24 frames of ending lag). Gunner can also stay away from Cloud by using shorthop fair since it combos into charge blast at low to mid percents and it can setup for a kill at high percents. It can also be used to get inside against Cloud since it can combo into a dash attack and start a string into another fair. Gunner can also Gundash in order to move faster than Cloud. To add on, Gunner can use fair to pressure a Cloud that tries to platform camp. In addition, up air and up tilt are other safe options to pressure a Cloud from under a platform. Gunner also has a quick grab to use on a shielding Cloud player with some followups that are mentioned in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread.

Up air is good at juggling Cloud since it has long lasting, long ranged hitboxes that can catch airdodges that are not perfectly timed. In addition, Mii Gunner's aerial mobility is pretty good, and it is more than fast enough to catch an opponent that air dodges. In addition Gunner can also cover Cloud's landing with charge blast or gundash up tilt.

Gunner's landing mixups are actually pretty good since Gunner can move faster than any character in the air by gundashing, and Gunner can stall with reflector in order to mess up an opponent's timing. Gunner can also keep characters from getting under Gunner by using flame pillar or lunar launch. In addition, Lunar cancelling can allow Gunner to land next to a character safely since it allows gunner to land with a hitbox (without any landing lag) when timed properly.

While Gunner's killing power is worse than Cloud's, Gunner can kill Cloud from range. The weak hit of Gunner's flame pillar confirms into charge blast, and flame pillar can beat out blade beam. In addition, limit blade beam isn't such a great idea for Cloud since Gunner has a very quick reflector. Gunner can also kill Cloud with a fsmash that outranges most of Cloud's moves (including limit cross slash) and covers all of Cloud's ledge options when timed properly. Gunner also get in on Cloud by taking advantage of fair getting Cloud into the air. Gunner can also make up for a lack of killing power with great edgeguarding (I have killed a Cloud player around 60% by throwing him off of the stage and spamming flame pillar at the ledge). Avoiding Limit cross slash isn't that difficult since it comes out on frame 11, and it isn't safe on shield (@reflexwonder has shown that characters can roll out of shield and punish Cloud when he is using limit cross slash). Also Cloud isn't the greatest at killing either since characters can DI out of some of his moves (cross slash and jab are examples of this) and tech his down smash.
 

L9999

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ROB never gets much discussion because his metagame has been fairly stagnant and he has yet to have a breakthrough at a major event. He usually just gets mentioned in passing as barely relevant or barely not relevant, or is used as a benchmark to compare to more dynamic characters that have been making waves lately like Lucario and Greninja. I guess the main reason ROB isn't discussed at length is because there isn't really anything new to say (and he doesn't have any fanatical users that always try to redirect the current discussion to him despite multiple ROB mains frequenting this thread).
Speaking of dying metas,:4wario2:. Nasubi quit so Wario in Japan is now officially dead, and in America he is on a coma. :4wario2: hasn't done anything significant in forever and :4cloud:negates his existence even more. And where is he ranked?:

D :4luigi::4darkpit::4pit::4peach::4rob::4wario2::4tlink::4lucario:

Yeah, no, Wario is not better than Toon Link and Lucario. He will totally drop. IMO, if 4BR revise to the next tier list correctly, the current C tier will cease to exist, D tier will become C, and :4falcon::4yoshi::4wario2::4rob: will all be together with :4olimar::4megaman::4pacman::4robinf::4bowser:to form the the new D tier, which stands for disappointing, while :4myfriends::4greninja::4dk: will go up to their rightful place.
 
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juddy96

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Andy and Addy are different players who both play :4dedede: and are PRed. They're actually right next to each other on the most recent PR I could find. Seems like they're from different cities though.



I don't have any Mii Gunner experience, but based on what D Djmarcus44 said Gunner's fair is transcendent and Villager's slingshot is not, which makes a huge difference in the neutral game versus Cloud.
Andy and Addy are from different cities (Andy from Guadalajara and Addy from Monterrey) but Addy mains Cloud now.
 

Y2Kay

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While everyone was a Genesis 3 Reflex dominated Kumite in Tennessee. Fool didn't even drop a game.

TBH though My local scene is weak compared to him. The only local player here who can even hold a candle to his results is Jester with his 13th placement at Smash Con, and he plays Rosalina, who doesn't do great against Wario. (Jester's Rosa is campy too which doubly sucks for him)

It is still an 80 man tourney tho. Impressive.

:150:
 

Asdioh

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Please discuss anything you think is out of place!
I feel like this thread is a mafia game sometimes. Have you played mafia? You'd be good at it. You've certainly got "leaving breadcrumbs" down pat.


That said uh... neat info! I see Kirby is the "most popular character with zero first place finishes" according to this list. And Pit/Dark Pit are incredibly low, with... Dark Pit having more than double the popularity? Did he rise because of the Electroshock buff, or was the edgier Pit always the more popular one?
 

Eugene Wang

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Did he rise because of the Electroshock buff, or was the edgier Pit always the more popular one?
Related question: Who can land hits with Light Pit's arrows consistently?

(Yes, I'm sure it's more than competitive strength, but I wanted to bring up a point.)
 
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Thinkaman

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I feel like this thread is a mafia game sometimes. Have you played mafia? You'd be good at it. You've certainly got "leaving breadcrumbs" down pat.
Haha, oh man.

I've spent the last 8 years working on a mafia variant called WitchHunt, and am in the middle of fulfilling last year's successful Kickstarter.

It's a reasonable possibility that I have moderated more IRL mafia games than anyone on the planet; I was averaging 3 or so big ones a week there for awhile. I've run games in science centers, churches, conventions, Indiecade, Warren Spector's living room, online games on a variety of forums; all over the place. Last GenCon I ran games for around 38 hours total I think.

You wouldn't believe how many design articles and spreadsheets I have. So many.
 

Cereal Bawks

Smash Ace
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cereal_bawks
Well, guess I'll put my money where my mouth is and collect some hard data, to serve as an example.

I.

Let's take a look at the Smashboards tournament ranking results (by character) for events from Feb 1st - Now:



Several interesting things jump out, but let's break it down.

II.

The percentages are the % of players (of that character) who placed at the corresponding levels. In theory, this should be a similar spread for characters of all skill levels, if we assume that that players are themselves automatically filtering for tiers and only playing their best character(s).

In more advanced theory, we'd expect to see a slight tilt for higher-tier characters having higher percentages, merely because the most competitive "spike" mindset players (who win more as a group) will gravitate towards them.

We see important exceptions to this trend:

We all know that :4yoshi: has a top-level problem, but according to the data :4villager: and :4greninja: suffer similar fates in the aggregate smash community. Yes, iStudying and Ranai have made their few wins pretty big ones, but the general trend within this period still stands.


Always just short.

:4rob: and :4myfriends: are disproportionately played by people who perform really well with them. ROB is actually just, really strongly performing period.

Shockingly (to me), :4zss: wins relatively rarely for the pool of players that play her; she's more popular with the broader smash community than we (I?) assumed.

I've long said that feminine characters (including Jiggs), extreme heavyweights, and :4drmario: specifically all have abnormally high character loyalty such that they are played disproportionately by experienced mains only.


But muh wifu!

I've also suggested in private that this has a radical warping effect on win-rates relative to tier strength--and we see that here. All of those characters exhibit abnormally high Top 16 or Top 8 placement rates relative to the number of players using them--ESPECIALLY :4charizard: and :4dedede:, who may be even more dominant at lower level play than we suspected.

Curiously :4wario: is included in this pattern while :4lucina: is not, which is an important lesson about gender identity and assumptions.

III.

Returning to the top of the rankings, we see some surprising results. We can get a general placement score by combining the top 16/8/1 placements, weighted significantly towards the latter. We can see that 5/6ths of the entire cast falls within one standard deviation of the average score, with all the outliers being on the top.

The elephant in the room is that :4cloud: is king, and a whole boatload of people are both playing and winning with :4mario: at all levels of play. Looking back historically, this was no February fluke; Mario has been popular (and unlike Falcon, winning) everywhere for a long time.


Zero might not be worried about them, but this is currently the most typical Grand Finals in Smash 4.

What's striking is just how much stronger performing these two characters were over this period, about an entire standard deviation each above the others. In fact, if you were to turn this into a results list, it might look pretty shocking:

TOP LEVEL VIABLE:
SS: :4cloud:
S: :4mario:
A+: :4diddy::4bayonetta::4sheik:
A-: :4falcon::4corrin:
B+: :rosalina::4rob::4ness:
B-: :4metaknight::4zss::4fox::4luigi:
C+: :4yoshi::4pikachu::4sonic::4myfriends::4ryu:

NOT TOP LEVEL VIABLE:
C-: :4tlink::4marth::4villager::4littlemac::4greninja::4link::4peach::4mewtwo:
D+: :4wario2::4dedede::4kirby::4bowser::4falco::4pit::4darkpit::4bowserjr::4lucario::4feroy::4ganondorf::4dk:
E+: :4gaw::4robinm::4megaman::4jigglypuff::4lucas::4palutena::4shulk::4wiifit::4samus:
E-: :4lucina::4charizard::4drmario::4pacman::4olimar::4duckhunt::4zelda:

Note: I didn't include the Miis, because we (as a community) don't play with them much. (So there isn't enough data to submit for analysis.)

IV.

Now, I already here you protesting: Results don't automatically equal tiers.


Wait, who said anything about tier lists? I never said tier list. You said tier list!

Results are reality, tiers are theory--an expectation of future reality at a given level of play. The problem is that defining that level of play is hard, and almost everyone ends up overshooting.

We like to say that a tier list is exclusively supposed to measure "top-level play", but what exactly is top level play? Is it just Zero?


THE OFFICIAL TOP LEVEL SMASH 4 TIER LIST
Zero Tier: :4diddy::4sheik:
Not-Zero Tier: Everyone Else.


A tier list may be top-level, but even top-level should be a considerable range.

What if we limit our results data to just the top 500 ranked players? That's a really small pool of the millions of players that play Smash, but it turns out that the overwhelming majority of the results in our rankings already come from those players. In fact, I originally intended to run two separate sets of data (all players and top 500 only), but there was no point since the results were the same. (Since it was the same data!)

In other words, the temptation to attribute this list to the mouth-breathing For Glory masses doesn't fly. Smashboards' ranking methodology isn't perfect and the data is often incomplete, but it should be fairly representative for the questions we are asking.

Results indeed aren't the same as tiers, but whenever they are at odds, the burden of explanation always falls on theory rather than reality. Results are never wrong, and can never be truly dismissed.

V.

To anyone who has been around competitive gaming long enough, it shouldn't be a surprise that the reality of which characters are actually winning the most has poor correlation with the echo chamber that is public opinion.







My shenanigans aside, this is a prime moment to reflect on both how limited the bounds of our own discussion are relative to the broader smash community and how we treat new users who offer us new perspectives. (Even if those new users are just a-hole moderators in thinly-veiled disguise.)

Why did a new user posting this information (albeit with minimal context) yield vitriol, reports, and zero likes? Why did the posts like mine poking fun at a new user get a whole bunch of likes?

Why is it that I can sit here typing all this out in advance, knowing with 100% certainty that this is exactly how it's going to go down?


Thanks for the internet points, suckas!

Yes, we're all cool Internet nerds who are great at video games, and God only knows I will take the prize for smug know-it-all who takes his wit too far. But we have got to cultivate a community that is not merely tolerant, but willing to engage with fresh faces (and the often... unconventional ideas they bring to the table).

"Git gud" is not a viable path to the future of Smash, even in the survival-of-the-fittest jungle that is the CCI thread.

Btw, my lawyers want me to remind everyone that alternate accounts are against the Global Rules of Smashboards and are considered major Terms of Service violations and grounds for banning.

VI.

Anyway, where were we? Ah, right:



Please discuss anything you think is out of place!
TL;DR "It's just a prank, bro!"
 

my_T

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
352
No, there's a place for theory. I was just preemptively addressing the (legitimate) point that results != tiers.

Yeah, results are just results, but results are results.
are you a programmer by any chance? I noticed the logical operator "!=" in this post.
 

Kofu

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The caffeine-free state
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I am unable to watch Sumabato at the moment, but I have to ask someone--probably Djent Djent -- if "Sumabato" is a portmanteau of the Japanese pronunciations of Smash ("sumasshu") and battle ("batoru" or "battoru").
 
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Jucchan

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Messages
353
I am unable to watch Sumabato at the moment, but I have to ask someone--probably Djent Djent -- if "Sumabato" is a portmanteau of the Japanese pronunciations of Smash ("sumasshu") and battle ("batoru" or "battoru").
Yes, you are correct. The "official" name for Sumabato is Smash Battle Road.
 

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
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I labbed out ways to gimp cloud...as Mewtwo this time. The main methods I've "discovered" are:
  • Run off Nair to snipe double jump and hopefully push Cloud away in the process
  • Fair chain off the stage
  • Bair chain off the stage
  • (At mid percents) d throw into dair at the ledge*

The labbing made me realize that even throw down throw doesn't have true follow ups bar very specific scenarios, you can get some nasty stuff off of it if you read/punish air dodges. This will happen a lot, because most people are trying to dodge his fair. You can abuse this to get more damage than you would if they didn't air dodge.

All of these work if they air dodge:

  • Down throw to down tilt
  • Down throw to side tilt
  • Down throw to down smash
  • Down throw to side smash
  • Down throw to Shadow Ball
  • Down throw to Disable to Any smash attack
Now time to figure out how to deal with his ground game :p

It's probably well known to good Mewtwo mains but whatever.

:150:
 

Cyclone_

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So what are everyones opinions on the Ryu vs. Cloud match up, because I frequently play against a really good cloud and i think Ryu just gets straight bodied. Cloud can just keep him away so easily that i personally think that, along with the help of his stupid good gimmick, it's one of Ryu's absolute worst match ups.
 

Fatmanonice

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Ryu and Pikachu seem to be losing their edge because of their learning curves and now we have characters like Cloud and Bayo that are significantly more rewarding to learn. Cloud is ridiculously pick up and play. Not only is his learning curve really low, but the character literally rewards the player for getting hits, surviving, and just being patient thanks to Limit Break. It's like the KO punch but you can't lose it from getting hit and you can actually charge it, basically taking Little Mac's concept and securing it with a ton of fail safes. As for Bayo, I'd argue she's like Rosalina that she's not very good just up front but the rewards for learning her are absolutely immense.
 

JediLink

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 23, 2013
Messages
778
Location
QLD, Australia
How much do people walk in Melee, actually?
There are pretty much only two reasons why you would walk in Melee: 1) to walk up slowly and down smash and 2) swaggy PC drops. Other than that, since wavedashing exists and you can easily cancel running by crouching, walking doesn't really have any benefits in comparison.
 

C0rvus

Pro Hands Catcher
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You only walk in Melee if you're Zanguzen, and play Falco by only spacing up tilts and shooting lasers looooool
 
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[BROF]

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 18, 2015
Messages
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『 HOLY DIVER 』 Jojo Part 7 best part.
As others have said, you have such a myriad of movement options in melee that walking pales in comparison. Be wary though, that you can always walk too for more precise microspacing. Marth gets the most out of it due to his excellent walking speed.

Regarding Sumabato and the Japanese scene in general. Is there any reason why 9/10 matches are played in the Omega's Willy Castle? Do they just like the music?
 

Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
They know about the rise of Megaman! Prepare for your lemons, nerds.


There is a pretty good Japanese megaman, I forget his name. He plays much like myself (better though), mostly reliant on metal blades and pellets. I personally like to add more leaf shields and crash bombers (at a range), since the leaf shield is a natural mixup.


Also, that stage is another which would be a ballin neutral, in the style of TaC mixed with UCT, if we could remove that yellow *******.


Watching some Komorikiri... Man, Cloud seems impenetrable on Battlefield and much more defeatable on FD.
Except for that ridiculous comeback (don't even contest LB Cross Slash.. especially offstage. please.), but I assume that is partly due to Komo being better than his opponent.


Also, I have lost a lot of games like that. Where the opponent has a lot of %, last stock, and I 'take a step back' to try and figure a safe way to finish it, lose all my momentum, and die in 2 strings + a rage smash. There is something about being in the middle of a comeback that allows players to place really good smashes.

Anyways, I noticed that shiek can dtilt cloud's limit break climhazzard on reaction.. can anyone tilt -> strong aerial him? I feel like mario could dash attack -> bair him guaranteed, which would be an easy to repeat-till-death edgeguard flowchart. I wonder if Zamus can get a d-smash off, since its a projectile.. with good timing, maybe trade with the non limit hit, and just 2 frame the limited hit. Hmm.. We will get better at edgeguarding this character, i promise.
 
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C0rvus

Pro Hands Catcher
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I wonder how Pikachu does against Cloud? If anyone can aggressively edgeguard him, it's Pikachu. And Pika seems pretty evasive and non-committal onstage, so it can't be that bad.
 

Ghostbone

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2010
Messages
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Australia
Pikachu is very bad at dealing with swords, which ESAM's history vs Ikes is evidence of.

Again it's just another example of a character that is able to edgeguard cloud, but loses to him in every other aspect, so can't really force him far off-stage in the first place lol.
 
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Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
I feel like Tjolt approach is probably pretty nice, but good DI means you will get rage uair clutch'd more often than you will find that kill against captain safety.. especially since your stock cap is meh against heavies.

Pika MU knowledge.. you can determine which side you come out of his fair. Don't get fair chained offstage anymore! just SDI thru pika and you'll pop out the back. Throw some upwards SDIs in there, and you'll survive all but the dankest gimps.

...

We are seeing some Lucas on stream, and he is playing a Rosalina! This is a MU we don't see often. EDIT: Lucas beats Rosa and guarantees 17th! I don't know the Japanese scene for ****, but apparently this is a very big win for Lucas! It was a clutch MU, he won by having a sick grab game. I believe in lucas. Interestingly enough, it was mostly dash grabs and not the improved standing grab, though this makes sense as getting past luma is hard with a standing grab.

We also saw the importance of stage picks earlier, when Earth's Corrin beat a shiek twice on battlefield pretty decisively, but lost a game at Shiekville.

EDIT : For you Pac dismayers, Its Ginko on stream, so hes made it pretty far. Those galaxian setups tho. Wins a match even after DK lives to 213 and kills him at ~60.
 
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Djent

Smash Champion
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Taiheita :4lucas: 2-1 Atelier :rosalina:

Atelier is probably Japan's 2nd best Rosa player, and he just finished 4th at the previous Sumabato event. It sure looks like zair really makes all of the difference in the world in this MU, both onstage (ranged poke) and off (we only saw one GP gimp). Of course, if Rosa gets held back by Cloud/MK then Ness could still end up being better, but not going -2 (or worse) vs. such a potent character is huge for Lucas.
 
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